Possible Few Tourny Legal Items?

[Timat the Slayer]

Understandable, and I enjoy debating with the likes of you, since you are respectful.

The monotony, elitism, and arrogance towards the item supporters stems from the fact that most people who want items in are scrubs, and call the competitive smashers derogatory names, personally attack us, call us nerds/virgins/tourneytards, other generic stuff.

So keep at it, Im glad to see some pro item people in this thread that can debate without flaming.

LOL I bet it was on final destination eh? I hate fighting falco on Final destination as anyone other than fox, or falco. **** that.

Thanks man, I try to keep things fair and reasonable. And as a matter of fact, it was on final destination...and I was playing Samus if I remember correctly.. Not a good mix.

Items are probably gonna be used at the first tournaments and will disappear as it goes on, hopefully slowly so we can really get an idea if they "ruin" tournament play.

I, personally, think Sakurai is busting his balls to balance things out a bit more this time around. I mean, yeah, people probably looked at a banana and were like "Whoop-de-****" but I saw it and was like "...hey, that might be useful in some situations..."

Yes, there will be things that will just be right out denied from Brawl, and more than likely, if there aren't enough items that can actually make it into a tourny legal scene, they'll probably be right out canceled altogether. But hey, we don't know all the items yet, so it'd be nice if we could discuss, from what we've seen, of the items released, if they might be over powered enough to cause banning from tournaments.


Oh, and this is of course, assuming that Capsules, Barrels, Crates, Asteroids, Hollow Tree Trunks, Giant Gold Treasure Chests, Whatever in the nine hells else will carry items, can be disabled, or at the very least, remove that bloody explosive crap. Nothing like a **** explosive asteroid coming down from the skies and wipe you out before the last stock or something....puts an end to that "WHAT IF" game real quick.

 

[Master Peach]

People seem to be stuck on the fact that if someone gains a final Smash it's game over for them.

People cannot make such claims since they have not experinced the game for themselves. As far I know Final Smashes do not glue the opponents feet to the ground. If the opponent has the freedom to move wouldn't they? Why would they just stand there and accept their fate espeacially when there's money on the line? That's like saying your in the street when the light say walk. A car is speeding toward you. You see it beforehand. Your telling me your just gonna stand there and let the car hit you or you wouldn't try getting out of harms way. If letting yourself get hit by a FS= Gay, then letting yourself get hit by a car must be Gayer. Right?

If you don't want to be hit by such a major thing avoid it at all costs. You can edge hang (Mario), Run from the opponent (Yoshi), or Get behind them or some where out of reach. There are many options to this. And about the situation about being hit with a FS when returning to a board. Do what you normally do when trying to avoid attacks coming at you. Fast fall, DI, Edgehog (abuse those invinciblity frames!), or whatever. Your not totally out matched when it comes to FS. All you have to do is think about the situation.

Another thing I noticed is that people think too heaviely on the broken items of Melee and compare them to the items of Brawl which they think will be just as broken. Brawl has new items and they don't seem as broken as the ones in Melee. It's a new game with new things. We can't just keep something closed up because were afraid of it being the same **** got in the previous game.

I'm not a person who uses items in a competitive match. All I'm saying is if Brawl's items aren't as broken as thr ones in Melee some of them can be used in Competitive Smash, and FS as well.

Think about it.

Edit: I forgot to include this. Even if you are hit by a final smash that does guarantee your Death, unless you are at a high %.

 

[Timat the Slayer]

<sigh>

Bump, because apparently people are making more threads about the same thing, and I should bring it the 'oh so few spots' back up to the near top -_-


Edit: Phew, I was worried this stupid post might've been my 100th post. How gay would that of been?

 

[Samochan]

Ever played Peach with a beam sword in hand that can fully utilize it, mixing the beam sword godly range with it's speed and her dsmash's shield destroying properties and beam sword good throw KO possibilities? I suppose you haven't, but I can tell you that peach with range is a fearsome sight and quite broken, if I may add. She can fc with it on hand and just own everyone's shield with her dsmash and otherwise use the dash attack or jab to defend herself from anything. I know a ros4 C.Falcon player who got owned by a simple beam sword. I was winning most of the time and sometimes he couldn't even touch me, but the beam sword was just ridiculous and it was like I was rendered invulnerable against his attacks and I only needed to press a button on the right time and dash attack behind me if he tried to roll. And what's best, I could just dispose of the sword if I wanted to, effectively having a very potent and fast projectile on my hand that can be re-used multiple times. And isn't beam sword one of the more fairer items on ssbm? And since it has been on the two earlier games thus far, it's likely it'll make a return on ssbb.

Also, when playing with items, it distracts the player and they cannot focus enough on the real match. The game becomes simply item hunt even among the competitive players, since the items are so good. Also a player who doesn't play competitively doesn't gain additional skill just cause items are in place, better players react fast to situations and have more experience and knowledge on how to handle things. Most of them have also started as casuals, you know. The lesser skilled player just gains a broken tool that has nothing to do with his own skill level. And the one who gets an item is always in advantage. Anyone ever considered that Fox and Falco have both reflectors that also reflects items thrown at them? Fox is broken on competitive ssbm already and his shine and speed make him even better on item match. And he still has the shine on SSBB and Mario still has the cape. Master either of teh characters on item match, collect items and shine/cape everything thrown at you with 1.5x knockback power to surely own your enemies. Reflecting a thrown beam sword that travels so fast makes your opponents think just what hit them. Not forgetting that since fox is awesome at comboing and is fast in general, he has no problems to dispose enemies from their weapons with multiple hits if they somehow manage to get their hands on one before fox. Second best running speed is nothing to sneeze at when playing item matches and I doubt he will become the slowest character on ssbb.

Fun fact: Computers always leave you and go grab some recovery items/pokeballs when they appear. They at least seem to know what is too good to be left alone.

 

[SenorPresidente]

items appear at random. Random = Luck, luck takes away from skill.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

items appear at random. Random = Luck, luck takes away from skill.

Items = luck = gay

Im really sticking with that one.

Ever played Peach with a beam sword in hand that can fully utilize it, mixing the beam sword godly range with it's speed and her dsmash's shield destroying properties and beam sword good throw KO possibilities? I suppose you haven't

Good job supposing (You're wrong by the way. I have a peach main in my crew, she's pretty darn good with the sword). Thing is, peach gets a stitch/beam/bomb VERY rarely. Using peach as an argument towards using items is moot because the chances of peach pulling out an item are still much much lower than an item appearing even on very low.

Also, when playing with items, it distracts the player and they cannot focus enough on the real match. The game becomes simply item hunt even among the competitive players, since the items are so good. Also a player who doesn't play competitively doesn't gain additional skill just cause items are in place, better players react fast to situations and have more experience and knowledge on how to handle things. Most of them have also started as casuals, you know. The lesser skilled player just gains a broken tool that has nothing to do with his own skill level. And the one who gets an item is always in advantage.

Ah crap. I thought you were going somewhere else once you mentioned peach... I see now that we share the same views. And here I was getting all ready to argue with you.

I agree completly though.

Wrong. I once believed this too. But just a few months ago I started playing with items again. There is a lot of crazy stuff you can do with them that come with know other "advance tactics".

Items don't have advanced techs. Items are simple and fun to use, and they require no more than a few weeks playing with them to learn the ins and outs of every one of them.

Prove me wrong though, name me some advanced item strategies that aren't some random thing you and your friends did one day. Name me some legitimate advanced techniques with items that I havent heard of before and I might change my mind.

Anyway, even if items take a little bit of dexterity to master, they don't even compare to the years of practice it takes to fully master a character, or many characters movesets, not to mention developing mindgames, prediction, and keeping the rhythm of techchasing fluid.

 

[Takeshi245]

Dylan's right. Items don't offer as much skill as you'll learn doing the advanced techniques. I'll admit that there's fun every once in a while for me, but that's about it. Besides, when playing against my friend, I don't want some capsule randomly coming out of nowhere and exploding, sending me sailing off the screen. Because crates, barrels, and capsules are explosive at random in Melee, that's why they're banned.

 

[Gamingboy]

Okay, true story. I don't go to many tourneys, one or two a year... tops. Well, I once went to a tourney that was primarily made of casual players, since it was part of a wider video-game event that was heavily publicized in the local media. It had something like, 75 people in the Smash tournament, and there was a vote as to whether items would be allowed or not... they were. Same thing went for stages.


It was a helluva lot of fun (so to everyone who is ONLY a casual or ONLY a tourney player: It's fun no matter what you do!), to be sure, but I ended up losing in the 3rd round when a Bob-bomb fell between me and my opponent during SUDDEN DEATH.... I flew off the screen .0001 seconds before him (really, it was something like that close), so I lost my chance at Smash immortality.


And that's why items shouldn't be used in tourneys, unless if it is just a "for fun" tourney between you and some friends. It isn't about luck (after all, luck is present in every field of human competition, from having the first/second move in checkers to having a favorable position in a war), nor is it about fun. It's about the fact that any game where you can lose by .0001 seconds for no apparent reason shouldn't happen.

 

[Team Giza]

Items don't have advanced techs. Items are simple and fun to use, and they require no more than a few weeks playing with them to learn the ins and outs of every one of them.

Prove me wrong though, name me some advanced item strategies that aren't some random thing you and your friends did one day. Name me some legitimate advanced techniques with items that I havent heard of before and I might change my mind.

Anyway, even if items take a little bit of dexterity to master, they don't even compare to the years of practice it takes to fully master a character, or many characters movesets, not to mention developing mindgames, prediction, and keeping the rhythm of techchasing fluid.

Basic zoning is something that most casual players don't use items for but that doesn't take more then a few minutes to learn for anyone thats good.

Anyway, we have enhanced combos that come from items. I am sure that we have all seen some videos of people doing crazy stuff to the sandbag by dropping the bat. Try to apply that to actual ingame play, it can actually work quite well, though of course DI makes it so dropping it is usually only effective once or twice in a row and there is no loops to speak off, this is adds a but of depth to item usage. There is also a lot of stuff that is character spefically (namely to the Ice Climbers) but I won't get into those.

Well, like Ive said many times before, the items in Melee and 64 were overpowered. So its harder to apply some ideas without making items seem broken in them, but hopefully Brawl will fix that problem. I think if items were more developted into working to enhance the game system items would take longer to learn all the tricks with and would flow into the gameplay (unlike in melee and 64 were it usually slowed it down and just interupted flow). It really has to be make items so they don't completely out do things like tech chasing (they never really ruined this much), learning specific characters (they definitely hurt this), prediction (was hurt by items in previous installments but it wouldnt be too hard for them to be tuned off of this in brawl, mainly hurt by overpowered items), mindgames (I think items can add to this to an extent, but with all the overpowered stuff in melee it did get hurt by items). If items can work without screwing that stuff up, they could actually add more game depth.

Because of the way you responded to my post I am thinking that you may think I am a casual player of sorts (sorry if I am assuming wrong). I am a tournament player, I just think that if items are done in brawl better than they were in the previous games they could easily fit into competitive play.
---
*prays for aerial collision with a thrown item having upwards trajectory*

 

[SirroMinus1]

First off: I realize I'm most likely going to be getting flamed here. What else is new on a forum?

I was thinking though, if Sakurai is thinking of balance, wouldn't he also keep the items on some form of level on balance as well?

Sure, we won't have **** on high, or medium, or probably low, but certain items could very easily be implemented into a tournament game.

I think, first off, the Smash Ball, *Could* be an item. Obviously, on very low. And what keeps it fair is that characters can only use their final smash once in any given match which I'm fairly sure was confirmed by Sakurai himself.

I know not all of the items have been confirmed yet but, what do you guys think? Would some items end up being legal if they aren't completely overpowered? (I.E. Bomb, Homerun bat, Starman?)

Let's discuss.

you will get flamed and spamed with a bunch of no's and YOU FAILS!!!!

 

[Raikou-]

Because items cause cancer.

This is true.

 

[Kirby M.D.]

Dylan, I see where you're coming from here. I'm not saying that we put in items in all tournaments, He1l, I'm not even saying we put in ALL items. Actually, by no means, did I EVER even IMPLY we should have all items. The majority of items are broken, yes, and they will ruin gameplay horribly if used in a tournament type setting.

I know this, because I am a competitive player, and I do go to tournaments when possible.

I'm not asking for people to change Melee tournies, they're perfectly fine in my eyes, albeit the stages are hugely limited (though, for good cause), I want to know what could work for BRAWL

BRAWL PEOPLE. Not Melee!

This thread has gone from me wanting people to discuss items in brawl that might be able to be tournie legal, to people wanting items in Melee tournaments.

Reason gets thrown out the windows when it comes to the intraweb >_> (Yes, I said Intraweb. deal.)

Quoted for truth. It seems that Brawl is too far out for the community to really wrap their heads around a non-Melee style of play. For that reason, and the fact that reading through this thread has made me lose a few IQ points, discussions like this should be saved for when Brawl is released or we have a better grasp of the playstyle. At this point in time, it tends to devolve into ranting and general failure.

 

[Caael]

Lol, of course you're going to get flamed, these guys are all scrawny nerds who play Smash to win money.

I dont see what's wrong with any of the currently revealed items, apart from the shooting items, of which there are two of. Who cares anyway? Why am I posting here, I dont even play in tourneys.

 

[pineappleupsetshark]

I think there should be separate, item-on tournies. Ones just for fun, not all that competetive bull****. Personally, I think competetive play saps the fun out of Smash.

 

[NES n00b]

Please people. . . . . .people don't go to tournies to win money except a select few.


Caael, please know what you are talking about next time. You might not sound like a complete *** with your baseless comments and sterotyping.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Personally, I think competetive play saps the fun out of Smash.

How the heck would you know if the fun's gone if you don't do it? Most competitive smashers will attest that they started having more fun when they got better at the game instead of arrogantly sitting in their own world with bob ombs and pokeballs on high thinking you're the best in the world, except of course for bombsoldier *sarcastic eye roll* or Zelgadis *even more sarcastic eye roll*

When you break your arrogance, and realize that you really, really, really suck at smash compared to the best players in the world (and you do) thats when you start being more open minded, seeking out more people to smash with, having more fun and improving all the while while competing.

Even people like Ken who have used smash to pay their college fees and whatnot still talk about how much fun they have playing, yes, even Ken who wants to quit after every tournament he attends attests to having a great time at almost any tournament he's gone too, even if it was just to hang out with his friends.

Lol, of course you're going to get flamed, these guys are all scrawny nerds who play Smash to win money.

I dont see what's wrong with any of the currently revealed items, apart from the shooting items, of which there are two of. Who cares anyway? Why am I posting here, I dont even play in tourneys.

No comment. You're a fool.

I think there should be separate, item-on tournies. Ones just for fun

I agree, Id definatly go to some item tourneys. I just wouldnt pay any money to enter them since it becomes more like a game of chance, gambling. Where as in an items off tourney if Im well enough prepared I can at least get 1st 2nd or 3rd and win my money back plus more.

Sounds like a great idea, but someones gotta organize these items on tournaments. Will it be you?

This thread has gone from me wanting people to discuss items in brawl that might be able to be tournie legal, to people wanting items in Melee tournaments.

It's because this section is full of worthless scrubs. They can't discuss brawl without *****ing about what makes them upset in melee, and any brawl tourney discussion delves back into melee and people complaining about wavedashing, L cancelling, Stage banning, Item banning, and anything else from A-Z

We're dealing with a new smash game here. The one basic truth about items in brawl tourneys is that if we can turn off explosive crates / capsules. then items stand a very strong chance of being in competitive play.

 

[shinkazenokizzu]

items are more for fun melees with the friends.

 

[Caael]

No comment. You're a fool.

I'm a fool because I dont play competitively, nor do I like the people that do. I play with items, because I like how they're implimented. Right. Just because you have an opinion, it doesn't mean you're right. I recall you saying how you though people who dont play in tourneys are more like animals to you. Well there goes 99% of the Smash population, they're all animals.

Items aren't going to be allowed in tournaments because of explosive crates and capsules. Spacing has nothing to do with it. If one player is closer than another one to an item, then the better player will get the item. I dont see the problem.

Omg a fun stage/item!

Banned

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

items are more for fun melees with the friends.

Items... time.. coin mode... giagantic, and small melee are .. for ANYTHING you want to do.

The thing that shocks me about these discussions (not all of you) but some of you talk about the way you play, or the way tournaments are played as if there can be..

ONLY 1 SMASH... TO RULE THEM ALL!!!

/ lotr

Anyway, if you haven't realized that smash is fully customizable and no ones telling you how to play by now, buy a helmet plz.

As for tournaments... A large group of people has to agree to the standard rules, and perhaps rules will vary from tourney to tourney in brawl...

Its a new game, we can't base its rules off of melee, we have to see what happens. if no exploding crates / capsules, items stand a strong chance of return.

Though IMO I think even if items on is the way to go in tourneys for brawl, people will still do items off tourneys just because some of us prefer smash without items.

 

[Raikou-]

I think there should be separate, item-on tournies. Ones just for fun, not all that competetive bull****. Personally, I think competetive play saps the fun out of Smash.

I'm a fool because I dont play competitively, nor do I like the people that do. I play with items, because I like how they're implimented. Right. Just because you have an opinion, it doesn't mean you're right. I recall you saying how you though people who dont play in tourneys are more like animals to you. Well there goes 99% of the Smash population, they're all animals.

Items aren't going to be allowed in tournaments because of explosive crates and capsules. Spacing has nothing to do with it. If one player is closer than another one to an item, then the better player will get the item. I dont see the problem.

Pandatration ITEMS Tournament Sept. 2006

DSF (Shiek) vs Hugs (Samus) Great Bay - R1

DSF (Fox) vs Wolf (Peach) Big Blue - R1

Ken (Game & Watch) vs DSF (Luigi) - Final Destination - R1

Ken (Game & Watch) vs DSF (Luigi) Jungle Japes - R2

Inks (Fox) vs EZYN Jay (Marth) Mute City - R2

 

[starboardman]

Speaking of Brawl... and tourneys... there should be a topic for Brawl tourneys! (start planning ahead ya know... heheh)

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

I'm a fool because I dont play competitively, nor do I like the people that do. I play with items, because I like how they're implimented.

Not in the least.

these guys are all scrawny nerds who play Smash to win money.

You're being a stereotypical douche. That's silly.

Right. Just because you have an opinion, it doesn't mean you're right.

Ahoy there, captain obvious!

Got any proof of me stating the opposite? Didn't think so.

I recall you saying how you though people who dont play in tourneys are more like animals to you. Well there goes 99% of the Smash population, they're all animals.

Yup, I did say that a few months back. I'm really impressed with the collective memory of the brawl boards when it comes to my old posts. Another funny thing about people's opinions aside from them not being entirely factual, is that they sometimes change.

Did I bring up that particular point in this debate, or in the past few months? nope. It has no relevence and you're just searching for something to peg me on. Well, since I have changed my views on casual players, you don't really have an argument do you?

Pandatration ITEMS Tournament Sept. 2006

Wow, I never saw these videos or heard of this before! Thanks. Im gonna refer to this tournament a lot in these silly item debates now.

 

[starboardman]

So... yeah... does that mean you dislike football players, soccer players, hockey players, basketball players, poker players, ice skaters, javelin tossers, weight lifters, boxers, and kung fu masters too?

p.s. and they're all animals too

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Deleted

 

[starboardman]

What, in the name of ****ing god, are you talking about?

uh... ditto... heh

I called him a fool because he decided to take a shot at the competitive community, labelling them entirely as scrawny nerds who play smash for the sole reason of financial gain. Which is very far from the truth.

Yep... that's pretty much what I gathered... heh... if you didn't understand my comment, I was trying to say... what's the point of NOT playing competitively? As every other game and sport in the world is played competitively... lol

LEARN

TO

CHILLL

 

[NES n00b]

Reading comprehension is a good thing to have. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Yeah, item tournies are still around the west coast. Own special tournies made for them (like low tier tournies).

 

[starboardman]

Reading comprehension is a good thing to have. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Yeah, item tournies are still around the west coast. Own special tournies made for them (like low tier tournies).

'tis. Item tournies, I'd try it out at least...

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

I was trying to say... what's the point of NOT playing competitively? As every other game and sport in the world is played competitively... lol

Oh christ, I completly misunderstood you. You weren't even talking to me...

Good point ^_^

LEARN

TO

CHILLL

Definatly, forgive my outburst as I have been awake all night and have a class in 45 mins. Im gonna delete my post..

 

[starboardman]

Oh christ, I completly misunderstood you. You weren't even talking to me...

Good point ^_^

Definatly, forgive my outburst as I have been awake all night and have a class in 45 mins. Im gonna delete my post..

LOL, no prob man... I have been up all night too...

 

[Caael]

So... yeah... does that mean you dislike football players, soccer players, hockey players, basketball players, poker players, ice skaters, javelin tossers, weight lifters, boxers, and kung fu masters too?

p.s. and they're all animals too

Games, video games. But dont ***** at me, I though Dylan was the same as he was a few months back, but he's not. Drop it.

 

[SilintNinjya]

if it it allowed for no explosive barrels or crates? what if you could set how many spawn locations there were, and you could even manage where they are? and then you could set how often something spawns?

i dont think it would be "unfair" if a smash ball spawned ever 2 minutes in the exact middle of the field with no crates, barrels, or anything. just the ball. every 2 minutes.

how would that NOT add to the skill required to play the game? it wouldnt be random at all. in fact, if someone is getting juggled off the stage and there rae 5 seconds left till a spawn, a player would have to decide between continuing to try and get back on the stage, or suicide in hopes of getting the smash ball before the other player can return to the center.

i think if he gives us THAT much control over items, then some of them could be allowed in tournaments. spawn times, locations, explosive crates and all that jazz....id approve.

 

[starboardman]

Games, video games. But dont ***** at me, I though Dylan was the same as he was a few months back, but he's not. Drop it.

heh. I wasn't "*****" 'in at you, I was just debating.

 

[Fawriel]

I'll just quickly drop in for a hint and an idea.


Hint:
You can customize the likeliness of the appearance of music on a stage.
If you can customize THAT, a switch to disable random explosions seems quite possible.

Idea:
If such a switch exists, there will be debates about allowing items in tournaments.
My idea is to make it an option. If both players agree on using items, then let them have an item match. If it's a risk they are willing to take, then there's no reason to deny them that pleasure. However, item matches shouldn't be forced upon anyone who doesn't want the element of luck in a match ( which would include even casual players like me, mind you ).

 

[BrTarolg]

interestingly enough, i think it would be very viable for a final smash to be the only item to be dropped on preset points on the stage which leads to some interesting terrain camping and strategies.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I'm a fool because I dont play competitively, nor do I like the people that do. I play with items, because I like how they're implimented. Right. Just because you have an opinion, it doesn't mean you're right. I recall you saying how you though people who dont play in tourneys are more like animals to you. Well there goes 99% of the Smash population, they're all animals.

No, you're a fool because you resort to attacking people instead of reasonably defending points.

You have no evidence that people who play smash competitively are inherently scrawny, you're just making assumptions and using stereotypes to attack peoples' opinions. Grow up, real people aren't stereotypical.

Items aren't going to be allowed in tournaments because of explosive crates and capsules. Spacing has nothing to do with it. If one player is closer than another one to an item, then the better player will get the item. I dont see the problem.

Higher rate, but nowhere near enough to justify it as skill-based, item appearances are random, therefore, random advantage, and additional randomness is BAD.

 

[Timat the Slayer]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but did I not say, twice, at least 3 pages apart (roughly), that we have all agreed that this discussion will already be including the explosive item containers turn ON or OFF options?

Reading the entire thread or at least the majority of it Is a rare talent that people should focus their skills upon learning.

That is all for now.

 

[victra♥]

A few Items would still be used in tournaments today but it's because of the falling crates and barrels that explode and what now. Since you could turn of certain items off like Hammers and Bombs, you can't turn of crates or barrels. I remember hearing this before, i'm just not sure where exactly. =/

 

[opabinia]

you guys are silly and all i ever do is throw items anyways and i can fifty-stock any of you at smash so there

 

[adumbrodeus]

you guys are silly and all i ever do is throw items anyways and i can fifty-stock any of you at smash so there

Put your money where your mouth is.

That said, it would be a lot easier to do that if you end up with a lot of useful items because they spawned next to you, I would not count on it however.

 

[Timat the Slayer]

you guys are silly and all i ever do is throw items anyways and i can fifty-stock any of you at smash so there

That's a terrible post.

Mario, Doc, Fox, Falco, anybody? hell, marth can just swipe them away with his sword even...

...Ok, or ness with his f-smash but who REALLY uses that as a reflector?