Possible Few Tourny Legal Items?

[Dylan_Tnga]

Most of the items me and my friends just throw at each other.

Just like me. Back in the day before I went competitive in melee, I quit melee due to not being able to SHFFL or wavedash and all that and played ssb64 with my friends..

we had items on, but the rule was ONLY throwing. We had such good aim and made the most incredible throws from across the stage, it was hacks.

 

[2007]

The Beam Sword in SSB64 could pwn hardcore by throwing. I remember I was able to intercept a moving character from anywhere with one o' them bad runners.

 

[Takeshi245]

I say that if people want to have item tournaments, then fine. I myself don't like playing with items in a competitive match, but occasionally I'll play with items and FFAs with my friends. Also, items in Brawl look more interesting and fun.

 

[2007]

There's some truth. I love playing with items in SSB64, because they were actually good back then. I guess the bumper left good luck in the games it was in.
SSB64: good items (Bumper is in)
SSBM: bad items (Bumper left)*
SSBB: good looking items (Bumper returns)

the bumper aside, there is one other side note.
*the hammers and bombs were nerfed to hales, the stars sucked, and the gay fans and shells became the gods of items.

 

[Adi]

No, it isn't. Mookierah is right, competitive smashers are so caught up in their own world that they dismiss the ideas and desires of other people, who love smash just as much as ANY competitive smasher, as being silly or not worth their time.

I do disagree with items being legal in tournaments, but I don't see why pro item tournaments cant happen if there are enough people who want to do them.

I would even attend an item tourney, but, as I stated earlier, I would NEVER put money on the line on an item tournament. Its like playing the lottery.

If we keep acting so arrogant towards people, it will only incite further flamewars. I know this better than anyone, having being judged to be some sort of evil anti item competitive smash nazi who wishes to force his views on everyone. Which I was when I first signed up so there was obviously a reason.

So instead of posting useless stuff like that Adi, show the posters the respect they deserve, or don't post at all.

What in ****ing hell are you smoking lol. How does me stating that the argument is silly indicate favor towards a non-item tournament scene. Is it because I am a competitive player and have indicated so in my previous posts. This is rather hypocritical considering that you were the one stating that one should be open towards all suggestions, and than you imply me to be a tourneytard. Don't assume anything about one's position unless they explicitly state it.

The reason I stated that this argument is silly because all of us are making absurd speculations about items being good or items being bad. The fact of the matter is, that we know NOTHING about Brawl's game mechanics and how items will contribute to it's depth. Only time well tell how the items are and how they will fit in with tournament play so everyone should shut the **** up until then because this discussion is meaningless banter.

 

[adumbrodeus]

VERY good point about the bananna. However I think Final Smashes are still as sakurai said ''Personalized hammers''

Thanks.

As I said, since it's one-time use, so ultimately whatever advantage you gain from it is equaled by the advantage the other guy gets from his.

I think we're better off keeping no items standard since thats what most competitive smashers want, but also encouraging item and FS enthusiasts to create their own set of tournament rules.

Ok, what's the reason that tournaments ban items? Because they're random in appearance and confer advantage to the player that picks it up, meaning random advantage. With the items I mentioned, there is no random advantage, banana works on both players, and smash balls are one-time use, so it confers a one-time advantage that is equalized by the other player when he/she gets his/hers.

In the latter, it changes the environment slightly, working equally for both players, no net advantage. In the latter, advantage when you pick it up, but you can't get any others that appear, and your opponent gets the same, no net advantage. Thus, no random advantage for either.

Bannings must be justified, the opposite is not the case.

Seriously, if its your tournament, you make the rules. Whether people come or not is entirely up to how your set of rules reflects on them.

Look, I'm may not look like much, but I intend on smashing competitively once I reach that level of skill. For the exact reasons mentioned above (random advantage) I never play with items and make it a contest of skill as opposed to just luck.

The stages I use are primarily final destination, battlefield, and similar stages.


The reason I am pointing this out is because I'm asking the question, "why ban"? A question that must be asked. Sure, I agree in melee, and including the barrels, boxes, and capsules (unless they can be turned off) in Brawl makes this entire question moot, but it still should be asked.

The main problem with final smashes is they allow you to control your opponent, without requiring techchasing or mindgames. That's lame.

Firstly, not all.

Secondly, for those that do, after you hit with say, Marth's fsmash, does it met out the damage in increments and force you to constantly adjust with things like mindgames and techchasing in order to do the full damage? No, it's a single strike for all intents and purposes, there may be long single strikes (like Sheik's dthrow), or short ones like Jigglypuff's neutral a, but they share the common characteristic of once the attack impacts the opponent, full damage is dealt before the technique concludes (what the "full damage" of the technique is, is of course determined by a variety of factors). Thus, if it fully controls an opponent's movements, in order to deal the damage of the move, it is one strike, akin to how throws work.

This can be spread out into multiple segments of damage, as often occurs in throws, but it's still one strike.

Thus, any final smashes which control the opponent's movements function like grabs, they hit with the first strike, deal their damage at some point with the move at some point or points after it impacts, and the damage cannot be stopped until the move concludes after being hit by the move initially.

Under this reasoning, many throws would be banned.


P.S. Obviously, I'm using "strike" a bit differently then normal, the reason being that there is no english word that conveys the meaning that I'm putting across. Essentially, I'm using it to say, "an attack or sequence of attacks that, once the initial attack impacts, cannot be interrupted or evaded, nor can the attack miss until the attack or attacks have concluded.

I would even attend an item tourney, but, as I stated earlier, I would NEVER put money on the line on an item tournament. Its like playing the lottery.

Neither would I in melee, but with the mentioned items in brawl, without containers, I would if I thought my skill was up to it. I only suggest these items because they do not ultimately detract from the emphasis on skill.

 

[SmashChu]

possible but not probable.

trust me tourny peopel arent going to be willing to change easily.

But that the biggest hurrdle in Brawl. Wether they like it o9r not, they will have to change.

One thing I think people forget is there is a way around everything. Sure, some items give unfair advatages. They're suppose to. But not all do. If fact, you can catch projectile items. So just becuase some one grabs it first, doesn't mean the other can't try to get it with a catch.

Halo is a great example. There is a lot of luck in it. Where you spawn, and how close to the weapons you spawn. But the true winner will be the best player. Items will be like this in Brawl. The best player will always win out. Just because they have an item means nothing. Which brings me to another point. You may be the first to get to the shotgun, but can you use it. Or, will your opponent even let you? Same for items. Swing the beam sword, but if you miss that's your fault.

Or course, which items will be banned or not wil;l have to be dettermined. And that's if the explosive items are off.

 

[1337marth]

I see none as in Pro gaming.
I know at my leagues they say no.

 

[Garath331]

People, items aren't random. You talk as though people just stand around waiting for items to drop and race for it. How often during a match are the two character just standing? Stop any prop match at any point and you'll see that one play is in control. Either the other is stunned, in the air, off the stage, or being grabbed. The item will be more easily obtained by whichever player is currently in control.

I hope the tourny scene follows the path it did in Melee, which started with everything legal, then whittled away various things. It would be a real shame if we cut out fun parts that are still mostly fair because we are stuck in our current tourny mindset. Remember, this is going to be Brawl, not Melee 2.0.

 

[Timat the Slayer]

Ok, obviously everyone agrees that if the Crates, barrels, and capsules can be turned off, there can at least be a slight chance at this, due to them not being able to explode. So let's just take that into consideration from now on.

So, I think what we can say is if anything could be reasonable for a possible tournie setting, would be items that are either One Time Use per Player (Smash Ball), or something that any player can put into play, and will alter the course in some way that both players have to be wary of the new danger (Banana, *maybe* a mine, depending how powerful it is, and Pitfall? So far of course).

Thing that give the player who picks it up a noticeable advantage, such as a Beam Sword, Home Run Bat, Cracker Launcher, and (maybe), super spicy curry, will be something that will not be allowed in these tournies, due to their obvious single handed advantages.

As for the people saying "whoever picks the item up", that's really not something you can base it off of, because, correct me if I'm wrong, during a match, you could be anywhere, at any point, during the match, when an item so chooses to spawn. Yes, it's random, but that's just the way a lot of things are, and, it has just as equally an amount of chance of happening when either player is on/off the stage as any other.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Firstly, not all.

Secondly, for those that do, after you hit with say, Marth's fsmash, does it met out the damage in increments and force you to constantly adjust with things like mindgames and techchasing in order to do the full damage? No, it's a single strike for all intents and purposes, there may be long single strikes (like Sheik's dthrow), or short ones like Jigglypuff's neutral a, but they share the common characteristic of once the attack impacts the opponent, full damage is dealt before the technique concludes (what the "full damage" of the technique is, is of course determined by a variety of factors). Thus, if it fully controls an opponent's movements, in order to deal the damage of the move, it is one strike, akin to how throws work.

I can tell you haven't played a lot of competitive smash. Once you hit someone with one move, there is this funny thing called ''combos'' that you can do, wherin if you know your percentages and have the skill to techchase with precision, after hitting your opponent with virtually any move with little lag, you can combo them to death. Just watch Mew2kings new combo video to see what I mean.

But Combos require skill, and skill should be the deciding factor in smash, not who can touch the glowing orb first.

I never said ''fully control'' I said control. Once you hit your opponent, he is on the defensive, trying to avoid further attack, or gaining control of his own by discovering a weakness in your pressure tactics and gaining control for himself.

Final Smashes, however, fully control your opponent by make your characters have an EXTREME advantage over the other, meerly by picking up an item. This advantage requires no skill whatsoever to excecute. You might argue that you have to control pikachu's volt tackle.

But Pikachus volt tackle essentially makes him a giant flying ball of priority. Its like holding a hammer, but you can fly around the stage. Its even worse than a hammer, which does not have complete priority over everything.

Thus, any final smashes which control the opponent's movements function like grabs, they hit with the first strike, deal their damage at some point with the move at some point or points after it impacts, and the damage cannot be stopped until the move concludes after being hit by the move initially.

Under this reasoning, many throws would be banned.

No, because grabbing your opponent in a high level game is not something you can just walk up to him and do. You have to lure him into a position, then capitlize on it to get the grab, and do what you can with the throw.

Picking up a smashball doesn't take any skill whatsoever. Tournaments exist as a means of rewarding the player with the most skill a cash prize. Items mess up EVERYTHING and are banned for a reason.

Also, melee's competitive smashers that will carry over to brawl have been playing without items for like.. what 5 years or more? They're not gonna wanna change, except possibly a few freak exceptions, but most of us don't want to turn items on just because there is a new smash game. We like the game without items, its an entirely different game. One I love to pieces and enjoy beyond most other games.

And again, I see no problem with hosting tournaments with items, aswell as tournaments without items. It should be at the discression of the staff organizing the tournament whether items are on or off, and what rules apply to advanced slob picks, counter pick stages / characters, stage legality, and the like.

But as I have stated earlier, I would never enter an items tournament if they asked for a registration fee. I do not like gambling, I prefer competing.

Were there an items tournament that was meerly for sport, not involving money, I would definatly enter as I play with items every now and then, and find using them quite fun at times.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I can tell you haven't played a lot of competitive smash. Once you hit someone with one move, there is this funny thing called ''combos'' that you can do, wherin if you know your percentages and have the skill to techchase with precision, after hitting your opponent with virtually any move with little lag, you can combo them to death. Just watch Mew2kings new combo video to see what I mean.

But Combos require skill, and skill should be the deciding factor in smash, not who can touch the glowing orb first.

I never said ''fully control'' I said control. Once you hit your opponent, he is on the defensive, trying to avoid further attack, or gaining control of his own by discovering a weakness in your pressure tactics and gaining control for himself.

Final Smashes, however, fully control your opponent by make your characters have an EXTREME advantage over the other, meerly by picking up an item. This advantage requires no skill whatsoever to excecute. You might argue that you have to control pikachu's volt tackle.

But Pikachus volt tackle essentially makes him a giant flying ball of priority. Its like holding a hammer, but you can fly around the stage. Its even worse than a hammer, which does not have complete priority over everything.

Umm, of course I know what combos are, though, as I pointed out, I am not at THAT level yet.

But again, I point out that you get the same advantage later, and figuring out how to best take advantage of this move by timing it right is going to be an essential component to using it, that requires skill.

On the other hand, if it requires no skill, that automatically evens things out, because, remember, it's one-time-use, thus no skill means that there will not be any advantage whatsoever to either player when they've both used it once.

No, because grabbing your opponent in a high level game is not something you can just walk up to him and do. You have to lure him into a position, then capitlize on it to get the grab, and do what you can with the throw.

Picking up a smashball doesn't take any skill whatsoever. Tournaments exist as a means of rewarding the player with the most skill a cash prize. Items mess up EVERYTHING and are banned for a reason.

And what makes you think it's not the same with final smashes as with grabs? Mario's exempted (which is stage-covering in a predictable pattern anyway, so if you don't set it up right, it's gonna be dodged), we haven't seen the lead-up into the final smashes yet, but considering that Link's and Kirby's final smashes both combo on a single player, it's quite likely that you have to successfully perform some sort of initiation movement in order to do the final smash (remember, the smash ball allows you to USE the final smash, it does not start it), presumably for Link that would involve hitting the opponent with his sword, for Kirby it would be a Grab, and for other similar final smashes, there would be something of that nature. They're just a lot more punishing if they work.

Of course, the final smashes are not exclusively attacks in and of themselves, think Yoshi's, it's no attack, it just confers the strategic advantage of being able to temporarily fly and use flames and fireballs. As far as I heard, Bowser's is similar, a transformation.

Bottom line, judging by the pattern, like super moves in almost every other game, these moves are far from without skill, not that it matters anyway, since if they were skilless, you'd just be conferring the same advantage on everyone, with a net advantage of nothing, due to the one-time use. Ultimately this is no detraction from skill because the net advantage for lucking out with item placement is zero, thus no randomness factor, no mess-up in the contest of skill, no reason to ban.

Also, melee's competitive smashers that will carry over to brawl have been playing without items for like.. what 5 years or more? They're not gonna wanna change, except possibly a few freak exceptions, but most of us don't want to turn items on just because there is a new smash game. We like the game without items, its an entirely different game. One I love to pieces and enjoy beyond most other games.

Which is fair enough, as I said, I don't play with items either in this incineration, and whatever general tournament rules that come out will come out because they are agreed upon as "fair", not necessarily because they are the correct rules.

That said, assuming that exploding boxes and such are removed, and these items function reasonably similar to how we theorized them, there is no real reason to ban them, and I only wish to point that out, hoping that this will result in the community deciding not ban said items, again, assuming that they function in this manner, a judgment that cannot be made until the game comes out.

Simply saying, "no items, no matter what" strikes me as a mite unreasonable, a criteria is far better.

"And again, I see no problem with hosting tournaments with items, aswell as tournaments without items. It should be at the discression of the staff organizing the tournament whether items are on or off, and what rules apply to advanced slob picks, counter pick stages / characters, stage legality, and the like."

Certainly agreed.

"But as I have stated earlier, I would never enter an items tournament if they asked for a registration fee. I do not like gambling, I prefer competing."

Which is your prerogative, however, it is not gambling if the random elements ultimately confer no advantage. Certainly, the first person to get the smash ball has an inherent advantage when he/she gets it, but as soon as his/her opponent picks up a smash ball, the advantage evens out, and the fact that it's one-time-use ensures that it remains equal. If the random elements confer no inherent advantage, it's far from gambling, because gambling means that it depends on luck.

 

[Milk Duds]

This entire discussion is absolutely ridiculous.

None of you have any idea whatsoever what Brawl will be like, and yet you choose to ban items from the get-go? Absurd. Let the tournament rules evolve like they did for Melee; don't assume that because something was some way in Melee, it will be in Brawl.

Also, as a suggestion for people concerned with randomness; what if there was just one spawn point for items, that didn't change? That way, strategy could be applied; guarding that spawn point, or keeping your opponent away from it. The items would still be random, but getting them would involve skill. Just a thought.

 

[Johnknight1]

Well here's a few things that I find ***could*** be true with items in SSB Brawl

1.There could be item tournies, just like they are low tier character tournies. Why not have some on ocassion=???

2.They aren't all luck or random [when done right]. It is simply adapting to your enviornment, and your resources. In this case, items. Have only a select items useable, and make sure they're fair ones. After the good ones are used, whoever utilizies them the best has the advantage. This is true with everything in smash. Whoever utilizies the good the best, the most, and the best timed more than not wins. Simply put, it's about transitions.

3.Recoveries: Half the battle is recoveries, and items could kill/save you in recoveries. Imagine you have a bumper, and your opponent is about to grab the ledge after their third jump. BAM!, one to the head, and then the bumper is the ultiamte edgeguarder, or you just throw a very good stun item, and finish off with a smash attack. Or parasol-like items=helps your recoveries, can stall your recovery, and make it longer, etc.

Simple strategic values. Items can add simple strategic values into a simple game, that becomes advanced strategies, in a advanced strategy game. So I say why not have item tournies similar to low tier only character tournies if items turn out alright=??? It's simply about what items would be tourney legal/illegal [like stages], wat ratios [maybe of each item], extra options, etc.

Then utilizing them, and adding better chances of winning for whoever transitions the best. I could see it happening=item specific tournies. That could be a neat formula, if items are done right, random explosions are gone/a option, and we find out which items are tourney legal/illegal. But that's the problem, even legal stages have some debates nowadays, and there will clearly be more items than stages. That would be a big problem to solve, and would be the main problem with items in tourney play. That and those retarted random explosions....I swear, the chances of random explosions are 1/8, but I always seem to get 1/2 or something. <_<

Aww well, as long as that crap is gone or a option, I'll be fine. Hopefully items workout alright, and hopefully the hastle of choosing which items could be item-based tourney legal/illegal won't be a debate that goes on forever and ever. Here's to hoping items work in Brawl to be tourney legal for item specific tournies. Item specific tournies could be intresting, after thinking about it. [hehe, more spams!]

 

[Team Giza]

The items so far seemed toned down from what the stuff in melee. I say if they barrels/capsules don't explode we give them a chance. I used to think items would create too much randomness to hurt tournament play. But after playing many serious matches with them on in melee... I really don't think they do. Yes it adds a little luck but I don't think it adds enough to really change the outcome of 2 out of 3 match. I think tournament scene needs to give them a chance if there aren't one shot explosions like in melee.

This also comes from playing power stone... were items and power stones appear randomly (kinda)... and yet it really rarely effects the gameplay and almost never the outcome of the match. Frankly I don't think adding items on would destroy tournament play in Brawl automatically. It could be good for the community overall to allow them unless its absolutely necessary to get rid of them.

 

[Homelessvagrant]

I'm all for items, at very low items can be even and won't ppear often enough for an unfair advantage. Wielding items take as much skill as fighting without them and players should be able to adapt to any situation. Players complaining about items giving an unfair advantage are clearly incompetent in item wielding themselves and therefore tend to dislike them.

And explosive crates and barrles coming out above a player and exploding happens so rarely that i don't see the big. I have yet to experience it myself.

 

[Samochan]

I don't support items for tournament play. We don't know much about the final smashes and how they work, for all we know Pit's FS would be easy to avoid whereas Mario can just unload it and KO everyone on screen, this would include team matches where his partner would stick behind him and then he'd KO 2 opponents in one hit. >_> The item spawn is random and whoever would get their hands on the smash ball and unleash it would secure a stock lead and afterwards just keep sure the other guy doesn't get the smash ball by throwing it away or something. Even if exploding craters would be taken off, items are still luck based. You never know what will come up from the crate and how many. Say someone got a crater next to him and opposing player got one too at the same time. The player1 gets one lip stick while opposing player gets a hammer, starman and pokeball where a legendary comes out. I think that's not really fair is it? >_> In no match players ever get the same amount of same items and even one item can turn the tides. Peach's more rare items and stitchface are a good example of how good luck can turn around the match where even a lot less skilled player has a possibility to win. Corneria is cp cause the arwing shots are random, green greens is cp cause the bomb blocks randomly spawn. YS is not played on japan cause of the shy guys and the cloud that mess up KO's and comboes.

 

[Metal B]

Many people think just because getting a Item, means that they get a unfair advantage.
For example a pro Yoshi win against a pro Fox, because the Yoshi Gamer uses a laserbeam.
First this sounds unfair ... but it isnt. The point in this match was, the Yoshi gamer trained item playing with the laserbeam and the Fox player not. The Fox user dont know, what do against a yoshi equpid with a laserbeam und losses. But it wasn't unfair, because the Yoshi Player uses his SKILL with the laserbeam!!
Or is Kirby unfair because he can use the B-Move of his enemy and is skilled with this technic? Absorb its like a Item for Kirby.

"Only getting a Item, do not mean a free win!":

1. You have to chosse, about really needing the Item, because it will BLOCK(!) some A-Attacks and grabing, while using it. Thats the importen thing about Items. You dont really HAVE to use them. Its give you an OPTION, but it also give your enemy an OPTION. "Do i really want to use the Item or go on with my A-Moves and grabs". This is not random, its a decision.

2. A lot of (not all) Items have pro and con. The Fan for example is fast, but it isnt strong. This means some are really balanced! The other a fun und unfair but they can be turn off.

3. Items can bring new type of Skills in the game, Item Skill. Because the items are random, you cant train with just one Item ... you have to train with all of them. You also have to learn to invoid them und to build new combos. If there wouldn't Brawl, Items would bring the melee community new life, new discussions, new tactics, etc.

4. That Items appear random is good, because of Item camping and speed charakters. Also that Item are in capsels and boxes, you have first open it, before getting it. So there is some extratime for your enemy.

5. The Risk of getting a item is also a point. When a item appier on the stage, you know your enemy want it. So you can use this knowlede against him and catch him everytime before the item. Also as Fox, Falco, Mario, Ness, Mr. Game & Watch, etc. you can think "Get the Ray Gun please, so i can counter you easier". Its all about tactic.

6. Troughing the item is also not unfair, because ITS SO EASY to shield or counter. Airdodging, shilding, dodging or simple attacke the item will stop it. When he can suprice you with a thrown item, he can suprice you anyway.

7. When your enemy get his beloving item, its not over. Items doesn't stay forever. The disappier when they are out of bullits or time. Also can attacks force your enemy for losing them.

8. You could play nice mindgames or bulid traps for your opponet with items.

Of Course it would be good, if in Brawl we could turn of explosiv capsels and boxes.
This are many reasons for items and i would say the follow items could be use in Melee and Brawl:

Melee:
Warp-Star
Lip's Stick
Star Rod
Beam Sword
Fan
Fire Flower
Ray Gun
Super Scope
Green Shell
Red Shell
Super Mushroom
Poison Mushroom
Parasol
Screw Attack
Bunny Hood

Brawl:
Pitfall
Superspicy Curry
Smoke Ball
Franklin Badge
Banana Peel

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Wielding items take as much skill as fighting without them

Sorry, no. You can fully master the use of items within 2-3 weeks of playing smash. You'll never reach Mew2kings level in a million years.

Anyway, we'll see how the tourney scene develops when brawl is released. Im sure there are is going to be a LARGE group of people who dislike playing with items and will want them off in tournaments though.

I see a great divide happening, wherein two sepperate competitive communities (items on or off) will arise, and hopefully coexist peacefully.

 

[Zantetsu]

I dislike items because they appear in random spots at random times so for example u and ur opponent are on the last stock and ur both on high %. He knocks u off and ur comming back...Well ur opponent finds a smash ball and uses a final smash and your done. If it wasnt for the smash ball you coulda came up and knocked him out >_>. Items = Luck = Gay

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Items = Luck = Gay

Couldn't agree more. I'm sigging that.

 

[Joshua368]

Sorry, no. You can fully master the use of items within 2-3 weeks of playing smash..

Quoted for fail.

Unless you happen to know someone who mastered every non-broken item and then knew how to use them to complement his character's abilities on a highly competitive field in just three weeks... for example, if you're recovering and someone throws at item at you to know you back, it isn't a terribly unfair advantage for them. You can just use a weak attack to deflect the item and render it harmless and then continue recovering.

I can understand not wanting items for the small extra degree of luck they add to the game, but saying that they take little to no skill to master or completely break the game is just silly. The amount of blind hate on this thread is embarrassing... this is the kind of crap the casual players make fun of.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Many people think just because getting a Item, means that they get a unfair advantage.
For example a pro Yoshi win against a pro Fox, because the Yoshi Gamer uses a laserbeam.
First this sounds unfair ... but it isnt. The point in this match was, the Yoshi gamer trained item playing with the laserbeam and the Fox player not. The Fox user dont know, what do against a yoshi equpid with a laserbeam und losses. But it wasn't unfair, because the Yoshi Player uses his SKILL with the laserbeam!!
Or is Kirby unfair because he can use the B-Move of his enemy and is skilled with this technic? Absorb its like a Item for Kirby.

"Only getting a Item, do not mean a free win!":

1. You have to chosse, about really needing the Item, because it will BLOCK(!) some A-Attacks and grabing, while using it. Thats the importen thing about Items. You dont really HAVE to use them. Its give you an OPTION, but it also give your enemy an OPTION. "Do i really want to use the Item or go on with my A-Moves and grabs". This is not random, its a decision.

2. A lot of (not all) Items have pro and con. The Fan for example is fast, but it isnt strong. This means some are really balanced! The other a fun und unfair but they can be turn off.

3. Items can bring new type of Skills in the game, Item Skill. Because the items are random, you cant train with just one Item ... you have to train with all of them. You also have to learn to invoid them und to build new combos. If there wouldn't Brawl, Items would bring the melee community new life, new discussions, new tactics, etc.

4. That Items appear random is good, because of Item camping and speed charakters. Also that Item are in capsels and boxes, you have first open it, before getting it. So there is some extratime for your enemy.

5. The Risk of getting a item is also a point. When a item appier on the stage, you know your enemy want it. So you can use this knowlede against him and catch him everytime before the item. Also as Fox, Falco, Mario, Ness, Mr. Game & Watch, etc. you can think "Get the Ray Gun please, so i can counter you easier". Its all about tactic.

6. Troughing the item is also not unfair, because ITS SO EASY to shield or counter. Airdodging, shilding, dodging or simple attacke the item will stop it. When he can suprice you with a thrown item, he can suprice you anyway.

7. When your enemy get his beloving item, its not over. Items doesn't stay forever. The disappier when they are out of bullits or time. Also can attacks force your enemy for losing them.

8. You could play nice mindgames or bulid traps for your opponet with items.

Ultimately, items give a considerable strategic advantage to whoever gains them first (excluding the ones that I mentioned, which was the reason I said they should be allowed). Since the spawn points are random, they give an advantage to a random player.

Sure, there are counters, but strategically speaking, there's still a massive advantage to contend with on the side of the person who gets the item. Thus, if you're near the item when it spawns, congrats, you've just picked up a massive advantage, and even if the item isn't useful for you (think hammer for any character fighting Roy), you have the strategic advantage of controlling and choosing whether or not to use it.

Think about it, if you have two players both equally skilled in item use, who has the advantage if a saber appears near one of them? This detracts from the emphasis on skill by a very wide margin which competitive play is designed to encourage.

Thus, it becomes a roulette, certainly the more skilled overall player has a better chance of winning, but the more items that give an inherent advantage to the player that picks it up, the closer to 50% the chances become, it becomes gambling.

I dislike items because they appear in random spots at random times so for example u and ur opponent are on the last stock and ur both on high %. He knocks u off and ur comming back...Well ur opponent finds a smash ball and uses a final smash and your done. If it wasnt for the smash ball you coulda came up and knocked him out >_>. Items = Luck = Gay

I REALLY don't think that applies for the smash ball, it's one time use remember, so if it's on it had to appear (either near him/her, or after you got yours), so if your opponent has it at the end of the battle, that means that he/she SAVED IT and used it in the best possible strategic manner, finishing off your last stock (a good final smash for keeping the opponent off the stage being Yoshi's or Mario's).

On the other hand, you on the other hand, failed to use it well, or your opponent was able to control you well enough that he/she evened out the situation without having to resort to the final smash.

Either way it's all skill, luck didn't really factor in because, unless a VERY low item appearance rate, both players will get one smash ball at some point. At that point it's just a question of who uses it better.

 

[Metal B]

Ultimately, items give a considerable strategic advantage to whoever gains them first (excluding the ones that I mentioned, which was the reason I said they should be allowed). Since the spawn points are random, they give an advantage to a random player.

Sure, there are counters, but strategically speaking, there's still a massive advantage to contend with on the side of the person who gets the item. Thus, if you're near the item when it spawns, congrats, you've just picked up a massive advantage, and even if the item isn't useful for you (think hammer for any character fighting Roy), you have the strategic advantage of controlling and choosing whether or not to use it.

Think about it, if you have two players both equally skilled in item use, who has the advantage if a saber appears near one of them? This detracts from the emphasis on skill by a very wide margin which competitive play is designed to encourage.

Thus, it becomes a roulette, certainly the more skilled overall player has a better chance of winning, but the more items that give an inherent advantage to the player that picks it up, the closer to 50% the chances become, it becomes gambling.

.

You don't get my point!
"Only getting a Item, do not mean a free win!"

Many Items are balanced (i really dont talk about the hammer, but even he is balance ... ) and only geting one Item means nothing. A skilled item player have to play with and without a item, because he cant be sure of getting an item, and a skilled item player know how to deal against an item. This is my point!

So random is complet unnecessary!
But you can't teach an old dog new tricks, right ...

 

[adumbrodeus]

You don't get my point!
"Only getting a Item, do not mean a free win!"

Many Items are balanced (i really dont talk about the hammer, but even he is balance ... ) and only geting one Item means nothing. A skilled item player have to play with and without a item, because he cant be sure of getting an item, and a skilled item player know how to deal against an item. This is my point!

So random is complet unnecessary!
But you can't teach an old dog new tricks, right ...

No, I get your point, you're just wrong.

Items do inherently give a tactical advantage (with exceptions, which I pointed out), and it gives such advantages at every level of skill. Certainly, the advantage can be overcome, but it requires more skill to win against a person using an item then it does to win against a person not using an item, inherently. They give advantages like additional priority, more power, less lag, plus, they can be thrown, and their disadvantages (if any) do not make up for the strategical advantages in almost any situation, and even if there is such a rare situation, if it spawns near you, you still have that choice, and you can guard it.

And this isn't even considering health-up items, which offer a massive advantage with no disadvantage, ever, one spawning nearby you is an awesome advantage, and with about even skill, it will pretty much guarantee victory if it's a powerful enough version.

Sorry, no. Even though skill does go into using items and enough skill can counter them, almost all inherently give an advantage when picked up. When paired with random spawning, it becomes gambling, except the ones I mentioned earlier of course.



Whether it gives a free win is unimportant, what is important is that it gives and inherent advantage, plain and simple.

 

[Metal B]

No, I get your point, you're just wrong.

Items do inherently give a tactical advantage (with exceptions, which I pointed out), and it gives such advantages at every level of skill. Certainly, the advantage can be overcome, but it requires more skill to win against a person using an item then it does to win against a person not using an item, inherently. They give advantages like additional priority, more power, less lag, plus, they can be thrown, and their disadvantages (if any) do not make up for the strategical advantages in almost any situation, and even if there is such a rare situation, if it spawns near you, you still have that choice, and you can guard it.

And this isn't even considering health-up items, which offer a massive advantage with no disadvantage, ever, one spawning nearby you is an awesome advantage, and with about even skill, it will pretty much guarantee victory if it's a powerful enough version.

Sorry, no. Even though skill does go into using items and enough skill can counter them, almost all inherently give an advantage when picked up. When paired with random spawning, it becomes gambling, except the ones I mentioned earlier of course.

Whether it gives a free win is unimportant, what is important is that it gives and inherent advantage, plain and simple.

A good Item Player without an Item, can win against an Item Player with an Item. The advantage for the Player with the Item is, that he can use a new Still, new Attacks, new Combos, new Moves and of course new Weaken. He wins the options to choose, but not a really advantage of the item itself, because they are balanced.

Your Problem is that the items appear random, they could appear next to some player and give him the advantage to choose.

But the thing is ... SSBM is fast. You havn't so much time to think, a item will appear not only ones, the item will not appear in a break, it could appear right in the middle of the battle, some items will for sure never appear in the battle, the items will appear everywhere on the stage.
So the Chance that an Item will be a Birthday Gift is really low, the chance of geting the item is low, the chance of geting the item you need is low, the chance to win an advantage against a skilled Item Player is low and then you have to choose of use the Item, not using it, thorw it away or make a trap out of it.

Is it low enough ?

A Great think about items is, it gives every chara options! It would balance the game more, than ever and give some low tier charas a new chance.

 

[Ess oh Aytch]

Oh my God. What the ****. This discussion is ********. They aren't going to legalize items in tournaments. Especially not for big ones that count a lot. SPAWN POINTS ARE AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE. It's not because people are fighting with ****ing laserbeams and "player 1 trained with it more." It's that "laser guns" spawn near someone, and not the other. It's luck that player got the ability to shoot laserbeams in the first place. One player could be camping, then the aforementioned "laser gun" can spawn RIGHT next to them. Is that because of the other player's lack of skill? No, it's not.

And I'm not being some cynical elitist who hates item usage because it's less competitive. I don't give a **** if you play with items. Go ahead and play with them. Just don't "train with items" (whatever that means) and expect to enter a tournament and use your new found skills to win.

Thank you.

 

[Timat the Slayer]

Items do inherently give a tactical advantage (with exceptions, which I pointed out), and it gives such advantages at every level of skill. Certainly, the advantage can be overcome, but it requires more skill to win against a person using an item then it does to win against a person not using an item, inherently. They give advantages like additional priority, more power, less lag, plus, they can be thrown, and their disadvantages (if any) do not make up for the strategical advantages in almost any situation, and even if there is such a rare situation, if it spawns near you, you still have that choice, and you can guard it.

QF (partial) T

I can agree with mostly on what you're saying here, and that's my original reasoning for founding this thread. What items does the community think might be able to give a fair advantage and disadvantage to both player's no matter who used it. Or, at least, for the most case. The final smashes are so far the only single use items that seem to exist...

Somehow, I feel, this Thread has gone horribly, horribly wrong...

::Lightning cracks in the background::

 

[Metal B]

Oh my God. What the ****. This discussion is ********. They aren't going to legalize items in tournaments. Especially not for big ones that count a lot. SPAWN POINTS ARE AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE. It's not because people are fighting with ****ing laserbeams and "player 1 trained with it more." It's that "laser guns" spawn near someone, and not the other. It's luck that player got the ability to shoot laserbeams in the first place. One player could be camping, then the aforementioned "laser gun" can spawn RIGHT next to them. Is that because of the other player's lack of skill? No, it's not.

And I'm not being some cynical elitist who hates item usage because it's less competitive. I don't give a **** if you play with items. Go ahead and play with them. Just don't "train with items" (whatever that means) and expect to enter a tournament and use your new found skills to win.

Thank you.

Why is everbody hating the items so much? I said it, the advantage of the spawn point is reallly low, because the player will not only stand in one place in the middle of the battle for a long time. SSB is fast. Also the spawn point are too random, so there is no "camping".

Ok, Nobody will play a Item tournament at first ... but you could start simple and do a side tournament, just for testing how it works.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Ok, Nobody will play a Item tournament at first ... but you could start simple and do a side tournament, just for testing how it works.

Thats what Im saying. But im ****ing tired of all these scrubs coming in saying the standard tournament rules for smash should change because they play with items.

I love their arguments too

''Ya, well at leest I have fun when I play!''

Right. No one else has fun but you, people sure would continue playing competitive smash for 6 years if it wasnt fun. /sarcasm


I -hate- playing with items. It makes the game dull, random, and boring. It takes away the fight and replaces it with some mario party bull****.

 

[adumbrodeus]

A good Item Player without an Item, can win against an Item Player with an Item. The advantage for the Player with the Item is, that he can use a new Still, new Attacks, new Combos, new Moves and of course new Weaken. He wins the options to choose, but not a really advantage of the item itself, because they are balanced.

The option to choose IS inherently an advantage, new strategic options are inherently an advantage.

Furthermore, since items tend to be very effective in specific strategic circumstances, they provide a threat, and we all know that a threat is often more effective then it's execution, because having it there limits the moves an opponent will make for fear of a counter, for instance, a fan effectively eliminates the use of shields by the opponent.

Finally, items do offer a net advantage in and of the simple fact that they are not balanced, they offer more advantages then disadvantages.

Your Problem is that the items appear random, they could appear next to some player and give him the advantage to choose.

But the thing is ... SSBM is fast. You havn't so much time to think, a item will appear not only ones, the item will not appear in a break, it could appear right in the middle of the battle, some items will for sure never appear in the battle, the items will appear everywhere on the stage.
So the Chance that an Item will be a Birthday Gift is really low, the chance of geting the item is low, the chance of geting the item you need is low, the chance to win an advantage against a skilled Item Player is low and then you have to choose of use the Item, not using it, thorw it away or make a trap out of it.

Is it low enough ?

Firstly, any item (except the ones mentioned previously by me) are essentially birthday gifts because they all offer and advantage at any point during the match. And irregardless of the situation, one person will be better placed to get the item because this game does not allow two characters to occupy the same place.

True, the chance of getting best-case and being the closer of the two players (because standard tournament play is one v one, as opposed to casual play which is 4 free-for-all), but that's an enormous part of the problem, since all it takes is one birthday gift item to completely mess up the match, furthermore, and once a player has got the superior item it's very difficult to dislodge unless you get the same thing or better, and if it's the same, you've probably lost a couple of stocks making the match untenable.

Ultimately, at the upper levels of play, it's an advantage which is easily multiplied into an extreme advantage. Remember, it's the small advantages, multiplied by their continuous use that usually win matches, unless it's a large enough advantage to result in an immediate KO.

Sorry, ultimately low chances for birthday gift type items hurt your argument (though, since it's a continuous advantage, high chances still leaves an advantage).

A Great think about items is, it gives every chara options! It would balance the game more, than ever and give some low tier charas a new chance.

Which is the problem.... options=advantage, and throwing the dice on high-level matches is not something I, or almost anyone else who is or wishes to be competitive level is interested in doing.

 

[Ess oh Aytch]

Why is everbody hating the items so much? I said it, the advantage of the spawn point is reallly low, because the player will not only stand in one place in the middle of the battle for a long time. SSB is fast. Also the spawn point are too random, so there is no "camping".

Ok, Nobody will play a Item tournament at first ... but you could start simple and do a side tournament, just for testing how it works.

What? Camping happens all the time. Also, you could be running around and an item could appear right in front of you. It's not THAT fast. Did you listen to anything I said? Side tournaments = not "tournaments." "Tournaments," the word by itself, when spoken about by Smashers normally means a tournament of high competition, not some tournament your friend is holding at his house that includes all of his friends. If you want to, go hold your own tournament. Just don't expect items in the biggies. I don't know why this is so ****ing hard to comprehend.

 

[Adi]

God I don't know how anyone likes any non-broken items anyways lol. I just use most of that **** as a projectile for edgeguarding.

Even if items were completely balanced I'm sure most people wouldn't even want to use them anyways since they're more of a hinderance than anything.

In fact I was surprised that there was such a large support of items when I came to this forum. Before I even knew the difference between an L-cancel and an F-smash my friends (who are completely casual players) and I never turned items on because we never really found it to be entertaining. Occasionally we put pokeballs on very high and watch as all havoc broke loose but other than that we rarely used them. There's not much they do to enhance gameplay... chances are they won't be used in tournament play.

 

[Smashboozer]

Nothin' worse then getting killed by a random falling Bom-omb.

 

[Timat the Slayer]

Thats what Im saying. But im ****ing tired of all these scrubs coming in saying the standard tournament rules for smash should change because they play with items.

Dylan, I see where you're coming from here. I'm not saying that we put in items in all tournaments, He1l, I'm not even saying we put in ALL items. Actually, by no means, did I EVER even IMPLY we should have all items. The majority of items are broken, yes, and they will ruin gameplay horribly if used in a tournament type setting.

I know this, because I am a competitive player, and I do go to tournaments when possible.

I'm not asking for people to change Melee tournies, they're perfectly fine in my eyes, albeit the stages are hugely limited (though, for good cause), I want to know what could work for BRAWL

BRAWL PEOPLE. Not Melee!

This thread has gone from me wanting people to discuss items in brawl that might be able to be tournie legal, to people wanting items in Melee tournaments.

Reason gets thrown out the windows when it comes to the intraweb >_> (Yes, I said Intraweb. deal.)

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Yeah, people complaining about no items in melee tourneys are being scrubs. Case closed.

As for brawl, its still open for discussion, so I would never call anyone a scrub for wanting items in brawl tourneys, as it hasnt been released, and the competitive community hasnt come to a decision yet.

Personally, I don't want items in brawl tournaments either. MAINLY because Im so used to playing without items, and playing with items bores me.

These are personal reasons, but Ive gotta go catch a bus now so ill post more laters

 

[Timat the Slayer]

As for brawl, its still open for discussion, so I would never call anyone a scrub for wanting items in brawl tourneys, as it hasnt been released, and the competitive community hasnt come to a decision yet.

Personally, I don't want items in brawl tournaments either. MAINLY because Im so used to playing without items, and playing with items bores me.

Fair enough. I, myself, was even hesitant to even consider having items in a brawl tournie but... I think Sakurai is trying to make, at least some of them, able to not just grossly change the outcome of a match.

But, this IS a new game, and I'm trying to break the cycle of monotony here, and maybe add something that will add more strategy or tactics to an already amazing competitive scene, without breaking it or giving some hugely gay advantage to certain characters.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

But, this IS a new game, and I'm trying to break the cycle of monotony here, and maybe add something that will add more strategy or tactics to an already amazing competitive scene, without breaking it or giving some hugely gay advantage to certain characters.

Understandable, and I enjoy debating with the likes of you, since you are respectful.

The monotony, elitism, and arrogance towards the item supporters stems from the fact that most people who want items in are scrubs, and call the competitive smashers derogatory names, personally attack us, call us nerds/virgins/tourneytards, other generic stuff.

So keep at it, Im glad to see some pro item people in this thread that can debate without flaming.

-After playing a falco for the first time...

"Well...That's gayer than a flaming rainbow in a bright pink speedo.

LOL I bet it was on final destination eh? I hate fighting falco on Final destination as anyone other than fox, or falco. **** that.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

sorry, double

 

[Team Giza]

Sorry, no. You can fully master the use of items within 2-3 weeks of playing smash. You'll never reach Mew2kings level in a million years.

Wrong. I once believed this too. But just a few months ago I started playing with items again. There is a lot of crazy stuff you can do with them that come with know other "advance tactics".

Anyway, we'll see how the tourney scene develops when brawl is released. Im sure there are is going to be a LARGE group of people who dislike playing with items and will want them off in tournaments though.

I see a great divide happening, wherein two sepperate competitive communities (items on or off) will arise, and hopefully coexist peacefully.

Though I admit some items are overpowered in melee but that doesn't mean they will be in brawl. Some changes are gonna be have to be made if they are to be used in tournament play. Some items are just gonna have to be straight up nerfed (likely from what Ive seen from the new items). No explosions of capsules and barrels of coarse. Hopefully different item hit knock back (when items are thrown they will have a upwards trajectory instead of down and to the side.)

Items are probably gonna be used at the first tournaments and will disappear as it goes on, hopefully slowly so we can really get an idea if they "ruin" tournament play.