Pokemon: Why I'm Glad I Didn't Start Playing With Generation One

[shrooby]

Ah, yes, a very good soundtrack indeed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QvMqYZTR5Y

 

[Delzethin]

Actually, Black and White had a lot of good music. The wild battle theme especially, it's hands down the best wild theme in the series.

Well, that's my opinion, anyway.

One thing that bugged me about a lot of Gen 1's music was that there was almost never a bass line or any kind of beat going on in the background. It made the music feel really loose and airy, which didn't always fit.

And to anyone who says none of the Unova route themes are memorable: Route 10. That is all. >_>

 

[_Keno_]

Stuff

You're putting a lot of words in my mouth, only half of which are true. Yes, I believe the original experience is lost on people not of the same generation, but I dont believe you can't still experience a good deal of its greatness and heavily enjoy it, they are a staple of the 90's for a reason.

As for the Muk thing, maybe it's just me, but the creation of Pokemon living in a garbage can due to radioactive waste and garbage is a few levels in ridiculousness above the creation of Grimer in an experimental laboratory environment. I mean, if you dont think so, I'm not going to argue with opinion.

And oh yeah, of course. I'm one of those crazy ole Pokemon nostalgia lovers aren't I? lmao
I never said they were the best games in the series, nor did I say I despise the newer generations. I just said it's stupid to say "I'm glad I wasn't there when first gen came out" because he doesn't know what it was like when first gen came out. I dont have room to judge any other generations because I havent touched them. Well, I can look at some of the Pokemon and laugh at how ridiculous I think they are. My opinion isn't an argument though.

And yes, I am saying I almost certainly enjoyed 1gen more than people who played after the whole Pokemon rage started. Why? The experience I'm talking about is really just battling with literally all of your friends afterschool, discussing the game and trash talking the other kids, collecting the cards in rivalry with friends, and pretending to know how to play the card game.

What I'm not saying is that because I think enjoyed it more than someone else, that makes me a true fan and them not. Tons of people have enjoyed the game outside of the original bunch and it's foolish to say otherwise. Don't tell me I feel superior or special because I played it first, I dont.

 

[Firus]

Actually, Black and White had a lot of good music. The wild battle theme especially, it's hands down the best wild theme in the series.

Well, that's my opinion, anyway.

You have your opinion, I have mine. Personally, it's not that it was bad, but none of it really stuck with me or stood out for me. BW's wild battle theme is definitely good, it's one of the better tracks in the game, but I strongly disagree with it being the best of all wild battle themes.

And to anyone who says none of the Unova route themes are memorable: Route 10. That is all. >_>

I mean it's a good track now that I looked it up on YouTube, but I hardly remember it at all, and it didn't stand out to me while I was playing. We are just talking opinions here, but as far as my opinion goes, that doesn't change my feelings about the soundtrack's memorability.

You're putting a lot of words in my mouth, only half of which are true.

Fair enough, I know I did a lot of guesswork and wondered if I got some of it wrong, figured you'd correct me if I did.

Yes, I believe the original experience is lost on people not of the same generation, but I dont believe you can't still experience a good deal of its greatness and heavily enjoy it, they are a staple of the 90's for a reason.

I still disagree with your point here, though. I'm not sure that a 60 year old playing the game for the first time would feel the same way, but for sure, a younger person not too jaded or close-minded to accept the gameplay mechanics and graphics in their not-yet-developed state could certainly still enjoy the game just as much as somebody who was born in the Nineties.

The issue isn't being born in the generation, it's about whether people would rather go to the shiny graphics and "cool" legendary Pokémon everywhere. And if we're talking about children that are the same age as the original target age for RBY, they're generally not close-minded nor jaded enough at such a young age, unless they've already played one of the later games.

As for the Muk thing, maybe it's just me, but the creation of Pokemon living in a garbage can due to radioactive waste and garbage is a few levels in ridiculousness above the creation of Grimer in an experimental laboratory environment. I mean, if you dont think so, I'm not going to argue with opinion.

I didn't really think to argue specifics here before, but I didn't think that was how Grimer was created (Mewtwo sounds more like what you're talking about), and referring to different Pokédex entries on Bulbapedia it seems Grimer was created from sludge in a natural environment, too? Although how exactly the sludge was transformed seems to be different between different entries.

And oh yeah, of course. I'm one of those crazy ole Pokemon nostalgia lovers aren't I? lmao
I never said they were the best games in the series, nor did I say I despise the newer generations. I just said it's stupid to say "I'm glad I wasn't there when first gen came out" because he doesn't know what it was like when first gen came out. I dont have room to judge any other generations because I havent touched them. Well, I can look at some of the Pokemon and laugh at how ridiculous I think they are. My opinion isn't an argument though.

Okay, again my bad with the assumptions. I assumed you proudly saying you were a '90s kid and had only played first gen was some sort of claim that first gen was the only one worth playing and that's why you hadn't played anything beyond that. Because that's not at all an uncommon thing, and generally people who say that sort of thing are indeed of that opinion.

And yes, I am saying I almost certainly enjoyed 1gen more than people who played after the whole Pokemon rage started. Why? The experience I'm talking about is really just battling with literally all of your friends afterschool, discussing the game and trash talking the other kids, collecting the cards in rivalry with friends, and pretending to know how to play the card game.

That was a lot of fun, yes, but enjoyment is a pretty relative thing. And you're talking about experiences, about memories, about the outside factors. All I'm talking about here is the game. Yeah, it's always more fun if you have an entire fandom to enjoy something with rather than starting on it after the craze. There's fewer people with whom to share. But you aren't necessarily going to enjoy the game itself less if you play it now. And the cards? That's completely outside of the realm of the game.

If you want to say that the Pokémon experience was more enjoyable then, I'd probably be with you there. But that's because I don't think the anime and cards and all of the other outside pieces are near as good as they were when the craze started, and I don't feel like it's as big of a craze anymore, so there are fewer people with whom to share it. The whole smuggling cards into school to trade with your friends thing probably doesn't exist anymore.

Spoiler

Also FYI I was one of the few awesome kids that actually did know how to play the card game

What I'm not saying is that because I think enjoyed it more than someone else, that makes me a true fan and them not. Tons of people have enjoyed the game outside of the original bunch and it's foolish to say otherwise. Don't tell me I feel superior or special because I played it first, I dont.

Okay, okay, fair enough. Again; it's not an uncommon thing for people to say. Can't blame me for guessing, by the way you were talking, that that was how you felt, too.

 

[Teran]

The children were so inept at the card game that Nintendo then released a Gameboy version to teach them!

 

[Rostigalen]

Dre do you ever feel like you're actually winning these ridiculous arguments or do you just refuse to give up?

In my experience with Dre, he believes he is right and never gives up until proven otherwise with fact. =p

RBY had amazing sounds and a fun combat system, but I have to admit that the split to Sp. Atk and Sp. Def was for the better, even if I only play RBY on a competitive level.

Playing Gold as a 9-10 year old kid was absolutely amazing. Having played through my Blue so many times and then getting to RE-LIVE my favorite game in another game was a blast. To me it's a highlight in gaming history - of course, I haven't played a lot of games, but it was an amazing experience.


(Pink Reaper has no clue what he talks about when he says that RBY is all luck and no skill - I play frequently with Dre, and when we play OU I win a majority of the battles, because I am the better player. When we play NU, it's even or with an edge for Dre, as he is better in that metagame, and when we play UU I thrash him because it is one of my best metagames and one of his worst.

GSC is far more than stall. Noobs give it a bad reputation because they do not know how to play the game, so they go for what gives them the most wins against other noobs - cookie cutter stall tactics. Then other noobs whine about being beaten.
Try Marowak for a change. Max attack after one Swords Dance and no Leftovers.)

So uh.
If you think that RBY battling is fun, there's a community for you.

http://www.rby2k10.proboards.com/index.cgi
Founded by t3h Icy, now being ran by me and a few others, we're the only community that I know of solely dedicated to RBY battling. We're good guys and we know a lot about RBY, as well as a few other games (many of us are smashers, the best one is probably Infernum, one of the better players in France).


Nostalgia r00lz I droolz. If I wasn't 6-7 years old when I played Blue, of course I wouldn't find it as amazing today, if I compared it to the later generations. No color, no held items, no abilities, only 20 items at once in bag!...

...but also things that echo: Missingno, the Mew Glitch, the simple yet brilliant music, beating that douche Blue up and over the place, and possibly, catching them all.
Here's a guy catching them all (with TAS): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SIY3afhyuE If you have 200 minutes that you don't know how to spend, watch this. Some parts are amazing. At least, read Red's name.

/Isa

 

[_Keno_]

I still disagree with your point here, though. I'm not sure that a 60 year old playing the game for the first time would feel the same way, but for sure, a younger person not too jaded or close-minded to accept the gameplay mechanics and graphics in their not-yet-developed state could certainly still enjoy the game just as much as somebody who was born in the Nineties.

And the cards? That's completely outside of the realm of the game.

Ah well, I am considering both the game's greatness relative to the time it was created and all the factors that influenced the experience of the game (card and friends included). IMO those are what made Pokemon 1gen so great. Otherwise *gasp* It's just another Nintendo adventure game.

referring to different Pokédex entries on Bulbapedia...

While you're most likely entirely correct due to lore being added over the years from the tv show and other games, when playing through blue, the appearance of Muk and Grimer in a large Pokemon experimentation facility where they are trying to create the perfect pokemon honestly didn't strike me as unusual.

Also FYI I was one of the few awesome kids that actually did know how to play the card game

Blasphemy~

And yeah, it's fine. I may not be an overprotective crazy pokemon nostalgia-er, I am an overprotective half-crazy pokemon nostalgia-er.

 

[Firus]

Ah well, I am considering both the game's greatness relative to the time it was created and all the factors that influenced the experience of the game (card and friends included). IMO those are what made Pokemon 1gen so great. Otherwise *gasp* It's just another Nintendo RPG game.

Fixed in bold for you.

It's completely understandable, because I can't deny that I had some good memories with the entire Pokémon thing back in the day. But I think that the games are amazing in their own right. Let's face it; most of Nintendo's franchises aren't "just another Nintendo game." Pokémon would never have gotten the anime, the cards, the action figure, and the entire fanbase that it did if the games hadn't been what they were from the very beginning.

While you're most likely entirely correct due to lore being added over the years from the tv show and other games, when playing through blue, the appearance of Muk and Grimer in a large Pokemon experimentation facility where they are trying to create the perfect pokemon honestly didn't strike me as unusual.

Ohh, I see what you were getting at there. Yeah, I suppose if you connect their location in-game with their lore, then that's a reasonable conclusion. But as early as Stadium's Pokédex entry, it's referred to as being transformed from sludge, after exposure to X-rays from the moon.

Blasphemy~

I know, right? It's funny to me how many of my friends I've had to teach the card game to in the past year. I never realized before that it was a rare thing to actually play the card game as it was.

And yeah, it's fine. I may not be an overprotective crazy pokemon nostalgia-er, I am an overprotective half-crazy pokemon nostalgia-er.

Appreciate it. Glad the misunderstandings are cleared up.

 

[Teran]

Man the best part of my friends not knowing how to play the TCG is the number of Bills I could just get for free.

 

[flyinfilipino]

And don't forget those useless Energy cards.

Just a theory, but maybe for the older players, could it be that being so nuanced in the mechanics of the game such as EVs, IVs, breeding, and I guess the competitive battling scene results in the aesthetics of the newer games not being as appreciated?

 

[Teran]

I dunno man I pretty much completely ignore the competitive side of the game until after I've done my playthrough, and even then I sort of tie it in to the whole experience when I am grinding away.

Tbh slightly more colourful sprites aren't really a big leap to me, I never much cared to gripe about the visuals. Besides Yellow had my favourte Pokémon sprites anyway.

Blow me away with something on 3DS, seriously it is time, that thing can output better visuals than the Wii and Pokémon Battle Revolution was quite pretty in some regards.

 

[Rostigalen]

Bill is still around in the TCG cards of today, just as a type of card you may only play once per round Very un-broken.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

the whole caring for your pokemon thing actually does come up at a different point in the RBY series earlier than just the end... Remember how Gary had a Raticate in his team? Remember how he just kind of took it out of his team when you run into him in Lavender town? Remember how he asks you if you ever had a pokemon die? Remember how when you run into him, and he says that, it's when he's coming out of the tower where people bury their dead pokemon....

Prof Oak tells Gary he's a ****tier trainer than you, because he let his Raticate die. Ya know, because you killed it when you fought it on the SS Anne. Prof Oak is an *******, btw, for showing up at the end, and telling Gary that he doesn't care about his pokemon and that's why he sucks. He's a 10 year old kid, and you beat the **** out of his Raticate on a boat, where he couldn't possibly have gotten it to a pokecentre in time. There was nothing he could do. All he could do was take him to Lavender town, and give him a proper burial, which he did.

And you call yourself a Champion, you murdering murderer.

 

[Firus]

I'm pretty sure everybody on the internet has already seen that copypasta.

 

[_Keno_]

I'm pretty sure everybody on the internet has already seen that copypasta.

Yu p.

 

[Oasis_S]

I think I'm one of those "Original 150ers" but with Digimon.

 

[GinnTokki]

I started wtih Gen 1, and loved Pokemon up until Gen 4. I also kept up on the show every now and then, but pretty much after Diamond & Pearl and when it transitioned into Best Wishes was when both the show and the game sucked (again, this is all my opinion).
Well, for starters, the Pokemon are really ugly in Gen 5, and I know everyone says that. I know the story in the game is good, but I don't play Pokemon for story so I couldn't care less. Though I must say as I'm playing Black 2 right now, I like this version a lot better, as more non-Unova Pokemon are available off the get-go, plus I have three Eevee evolutions :D
The show Best Wishes was just.....WHAT THE HONEST **** man. They just had to go with the reset plan, when creators can't think of anything else just pretend to start over and people will still think it's new. And of course, Brock is out, but his replacement is kind of funny so I don't care. The Iris girl is also okay, but her hair is like a giant carpet, though it's an anime so that doesn't matter. Best Wishes might have been a good start to the actual Pokemon show (though of course we ALL know Ash's adventure in Kanto was far superior), but meh.

TL;DR, Pokemon gens 1-4 were great. Gen 5 is where it all screwed up.

 

[FlareHabanero]

I think I'm one of those "Original 150ers" but with Digimon.

Which reminds me, what is the "original" amount of Digimon?

 

[Firus]

Well, for starters, the Pokemon are really ugly in Gen 5, and I know everyone says that.

I don't understand how people can say the gen 5 Pokémon are ugly when this awesome guy exists:

I mean, he's a fire moth. How much more awesome can you get?

 

[Oasis_S]

Which reminds me, what is the "original" amount of Digimon?

Seventy.

Then they made an anime out of them and released another line of virtual pets alongside the anime with 95 new mons. Later the anime became the main focus I guess, with the franchise struggling to stay relevant. Bunch of crappy RPG games deviating from the one shining golden diamond gem that is Digimon World 1.



AND YEAH, Gen 5 had much better Pokemon designs than the last two gens. Though the legendaries were pretty boring.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Gen 5 introduced some really cute Pokemon actually, probably more so then other generations. Litwick being the cutest of all of them in my opinion, even though they're soul eating con artists.

 

[ndayday]

Only thing that irked me in Gen V was the names but I got used to those. The Pokemon are pretty good imo.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I didn't read your entire post so forgive me if what I'm about to ask was answered in your post, but

Didn't Gen V introduce triple battles and rotation battles?

In much the same way that Gen IV introduced Pokeatholon, and Gen III introduced Double Battles, I suppose. Nothing that changes the core gameplay on the level of held items, abilities, and completely reenvisioned physical/special attacks do.

 

[Dre89]

Falcon- Sometimes I don't understand what the purpose of your posts are. You'll criticise someone who is already being criticised, yet won't show why they're worthy of criticism. I don't understand what that achieves.

Rostigalen- At first I was like 'who the f*** is this guy who I've never heard of talking about me, then I worked it out after a couple of lines and was like oh it's Isa lol. Nice 2k10 advertisement too lol.

No it doesn't automtically make it good, but it also doesn't make it bad because because it is not tied to your main objective.

And you know what? The funny thing is in the first Gen specifically, that theme is barely touched on except for the end. Otherwise most of it is really touched upon in the Pokémon Tower and generally stopping Team Rocket which *gasp* advances the story and gets you closer to your main objective!

I know you're going to be all "LOL LOGIC I KNOW WHAT THAT WORD MEANS AND WILL KEEP USING IT" to say oh but Team Rocket are just an obstacle stopping you from getting to the next gym! Yeah you know that's not really how it's supposed to work, within the minimal amount of narrative there is, this is abundantly clear.

So yes you actually show love and respect towards Pokémon by stopping their blatant mistreatment and exploitation. No this isn't really a present theme beyond XD because Pokémon aren't abused and exploited by the respective teams, they're just part of their ultimate goals which aren't even inherently evil (well except Ghetsis whatever).

Yes because it's not just meant to apply to all Pokémon in general. Also it does make a huge difference. The theme is what makes the whole thing more than glorified cockfighting.

Are you honestly saying that pokemon would be crap without the 'love the weak' theme? Your goal isn't to go out and protect pokemon, it's to collect all of them and be the champion. That's the reason why the plot was better than than later gens which had the cliche save the world rubbish.

Stopping people from committing crimes is different to treating your own pokemon with love and respect, especially when you can't actually do that, and in the one case you can it is so insignificant it's silly that it was a main theme in the plot.

Yes my logic is whack, whatever the **** that means.

And yes, you know what the reward is? Enjoyment, Last I checked, the enjoyment of a game playthrough wasn't measured in efficiency, I mean unless you're autistic or something I don't see how that **** is even relevant. It's telling you to consider the fact that pretty much any Pokémon can be used successfully in the game, so just because you may think they may not be exceptionally powerful at a glance, does not mean they are useless. Also ironically if we're judging by 1P mode, most of the average top tier competitive Pokémon are not that accessible and easy to train in an efficient manner. The pseudo legendaries are pretty much out, stallers and tanks aren't particularly useful, so really, you can play with Pokémon you like and have a ****ing blast building a dream team and kicking Pokémon League arse with it. Sounds like a reward to me.

Go collect Xbox achievements or something brother.

I don't have an Xbox.

It's interesting how you try to simplify anyone who disagrees with you as some mindless COD player who only cares about acheivements and objectives. You're the type to say art is subjective, but then objectify what an artistic opinion must be.

Again, you're rambling about stuff that's irrelevant. How you customise your experience to enjoy the game has nothing to do with the issue. No one is saying not to customise your experiece. Your working class hero bull**** about how you have an imagination and prefer realism to efficiency is just you customising your experience. That has nothing to do with the fact that the game is telling you something so irrelevant it's ridiculous how much it features in the dialogue.

Honestly it's no different to saying that it's important that your pokemon are disciplined, then havink Oak tell Gary the reason he lost is because his pokemon weren't disciplined. The only way this is relevant is with traded pokemon, again a specific and largely insignificant scenario.

Nice straw man there. Completely not applicable since MM is an entirely different game with different everything.

I mean really?

You need to explain why it's a straw-man, otherwise I have nothing to respond to. It's like MM emphasising care for animals and nature, there's no real way to do it, and if you somehow do, you're comprimising efficiency. Being a different game doesn't change the fact that the example I provided was a case where the games tells you to do something that not only can you not really do, but is inefficient anyway.

That's so great. You know what I do? I play it and have fun.

So do I....

Honestly your working class bull**** is becoming a joke now. Stop making out that I don't play to have fun and all I care about are tauroses and alakzams.

Cute

Preferring Classical music to Jazz music was just like, totally nostalgia in the 1900s.

Except that classical music is quite sophisticated and we know that it maintains mathematical sequence moreso than many other genres. Not saying that jazz doesn't, but there is objective merit in classical outside of nostaligia, which is why it has popularity with a portion of today's youth.

Greater deoth huh. How so? It uses 8 bit channels/the same hardware so it is objectively impossible for them to add "more depth" to the music,

I dunno man maybe there's something I'm missing here is there like, additional harmonic depth or something? Are there some sort of special candences that somehow make the music of GSC more refined?

No.

Also you're forgetting the part where I mentioned the use of the music on routes. It creates a journey in music, it weaves a tapestry.

Well GSC had drum beats and seemed to have more advanced musical capabilities.

Also Gen I seemed to have much more busy pieces in general. Since I dunno let's be all like OBJECTIVE DEPTH dude and like, pick GSC tracks apart compared to RBY.

[yt]hAOGtJLMHlc[/yt]

There's pretty much GSC's gold standard composition. (no pun intended)

Not saying it isn't great, but we're talking objective depth, right?

A relatively simple piece based mostly off the main Pokémon theme. Pretty much a single line of melody with a quite subdued accompaniment.

Let's try to do a totally "fair" analysis and compare it to the Gary theme

[yt]DHjciyJZIiA[/yt]

Now take this. A furious piece, it has a melody that stands out, but underneath it are furious decorative runs up and down, accompanying said melody, as well as an offbeat accompaniment and a counter melody to add to the spice.

Yes.

"Less depth"

Oh and the musical journey so to speak is longer, the music develops far more within that piece than the GSC champion theme.

This kind of thing is prevalent in basically all the battle themes, and somewhat less so in the city themes but they're still very much not "simple" and "objectively worse" because of it as you put it.

I don't know man.

I just...

don't know.

I'm a rock.

When I look at GSC music, I think of things like Dark Cave, Ruins of Alph etc. I felt that the music here seemed more advanced. I know I'm not being very clear but it's hard for me to explain.

 

[Teran]

Are you honestly saying that pokemon would be crap without the 'love the weak' theme? Your goal isn't to go out and protect pokemon, it's to collect all of them and be the champion. That's the reason why the plot was better than than later gens which had the cliche save the world rubbish.

Stopping people from committing crimes is different to treating your own pokemon with love and respect, especially when you can't actually do that, and in the one case you can it is so insignificant it's silly that it was a main theme in the plot.

No, but it would be thematically different, to a significant sense. Also, doing all the things you do makes it implicit that you love and respect your pokémon within the confines of the plot. I don't even man.

Seriously, have you ever considered that not everything is within the realms of your control and that things can be sort of worked in because they're just inherent parts of the plot? Honestly if Final Fantasy or something said "care for others" or something, something that you "couldn't achieve", would that make the game inherently worse or something?

I don't have an Xbox.

It's interesting how you try to simplify anyone who disagrees with you as some mindless COD player who only cares about acheivements and objectives. You're the type to say art is subjective, but then objectify what an artistic opinion must be.

No I was just referencing your need for some sort of tangible reward. Trophies/Achievements are basically what devs put in because people needed their hands held for everything that was BIG ****ING LASER GUN REWARD at the end.

Again, you're rambling about stuff that's irrelevant. How you customise your experience to enjoy the game has nothing to do with the issue. No one is saying not to customise your experiece. Your working class hero bull**** about how you have an imagination and prefer realism to efficiency is just you customising your experience. That has nothing to do with the fact that the game is telling you something so irrelevant it's ridiculous how much it features in the dialogue.

Honestly it's no different to saying that it's important that your pokemon are disciplined, then havink Oak tell Gary the reason he lost is because his pokemon weren't disciplined. The only way this is relevant is with traded pokemon, again a specific and largely insignificant scenario.

It's part of the plot! The plot's narrative giving some semblance of encouragement to customise your experience is totally relevant. Don't see what the issue is here.

You need to explain why it's a straw-man, otherwise I have nothing to respond to. It's like MM emphasising care for animals and nature, there's no real way to do it, and if you somehow do, you're comprimising efficiency. Being a different game doesn't change the fact that the example I provided was a case where the games tells you to do something that not only can you not really do, but is inefficient anyway.

It's very clear why it's a straw man. You keep using MM doing something stupid (dunno why I guess you think because it's my favourite game I'll somehow respond) as a relevant analogy when this does not work. Absolutely EVERYTHING about the two games is different, it's like comparing slasher fic with Dickens, the only similarity between the two experiences is that they are games. Really they are not comparable and you cannot add valid gameplay analogies with something like that.

Also MM tells you a lot of things that are irrelevant to the plotline. I tells you to believe in your friends, it tells you forgive their failures etc etc.

OH LOL CAN'T DO THAT ****ING POINTLESS.

Also what is your thing about efficiency? Seriously you are either German or autistic, hopefully the latter because at least autistic people have an excuse.

Seriously you keep using efficacy as some sort of valid thing when actually most of the Pokémon are very efficient at steamrolling through the game. Like seriously you could destroy everyone with a Nidoking, or a Parasect even. Your point just doesn't work because the single player mode just simply doesn't pose enough of a challenge unless you go to extreme measures.

So do I....

Honestly your working class bull**** is becoming a joke now. Stop making out that I don't play to have fun and all I care about are tauroses and alakzams.

Man what is this phrase "working class bull****" and why do I keep hearing it?

Except that classical music is quite sophisticated and we know that it maintains mathematical sequence moreso than many other genres. Not saying that jazz doesn't, but there is objective merit in classical outside of nostaligia, which is why it has popularity with a portion of today's youth.

Well it depends. Let's go to the romantic era say with Chopin and Tchaikovsky. The Nocturne, one of the most celebrated music forms, has extreme rhythmic freedom, basically meaning **** mathematics.

Dude, maintaining rigid patterns does not make you sophisticated, it makes you unable to work outside a system or a robot.

Seriously let's break everything down into numbers and sequences and get AIs to compose all of our music from now on, and no they're not allowed to work outside of ___ parameters ever.

It's why many people prefer Classical and Romantic music to Baroque music, because while Baroque music is awesome, many people find it "simplistic and rigid". I would disagree but because of its larger level of rigidity and conventions, there are more immediate limitations.

Well GSC had drum beats and seemed to have more advanced musical capabilities.

When I look at GSC music, I think of things like Dark Cave, Ruins of Alph etc. I felt that the music here seemed more advanced. I know I'm not being very clear but it's hard for me to explain.

It's because you don't actually know what you're talking about.

 

[Dre89]

I don't understand why you keep implying that I only care about rewards. There's no reward for doing a nuzlocke or a solo run with your favourite pokemon.

Yes the game is easy with practically any pokemon, but MM is just as difficult whether you use the hood or not, but one option is more efficient than the other.

With the FF example, it's different of it's a message that applies to real-life, because kids can take that on board. Pokemon aren't real so the message is redundant. It doesn't even apply to animals because if kids treated them like pokemon they'd be in a lot of trouble.

When I was a kid and Oak used to say that Gary lost because he didn't treat his pokemon well, I was confused and wanted to know what he was doing different. It was because my pokemon were stronger, not because I loved them.

I think that respecting trainers would have been a better message, since it applies to multiplayer battling, and to fellow competitors in all aspects of life. That's a better theme for kids because even though it can't be done in-game at least it applies outside of it.

 

[Rostigalen]

Rostigalen- At first I was like 'who the f*** is this guy who I've never heard of talking about me, then I worked it out after a couple of lines and was like oh it's Isa lol. Nice 2k10 advertisement too lol.

Just call me Isa =p I'd change my name on here if it didn't require Premium, and I'm proud of my joindate.

(also I didn't write /Isa or anything similar at the top because I wanted you to become confused :D)

 

[Teran]

I don't understand why you keep implying that I only care about rewards. There's no reward for doing a nuzlocke or a solo run with your favourite pokemon.

Yes the game is easy with practically any pokemon, but MM is just as difficult whether you use the hood or not, but one option is more efficient than the other.

With the FF example, it's different of it's a message that applies to real-life, because kids can take that on board. Pokemon aren't real so the message is redundant. It doesn't even apply to animals because if kids treated them like pokemon they'd be in a lot of trouble.

Yes but you'll find that the Bunny Hood is a means of quicker transportation where movement around the map isn't in any way the meat of the game, it's the plot and the puzzles.

Pokémon is just as much about how you go about it as going about it. MM has that element in it too of course, rather how you go about it but again it's not applicable it works differently because it is a completely different game. Apples and oranges.

Pokémon isn't about getting from A to B as quickly as possible, it's about getting from A to B how you want to. That is the underlying point of the entire series. I suppose what I'm trying to get at is that the whole love and respect angle is alluding to that.

When I was a kid and Oak used to say that Gary lost because he didn't treat his pokemon well, I was confused and wanted to know what he was doing different. It was because my pokemon were stronger, not because I loved them.

I always assumed it was his lack of love and dedication that didn't allow his Pokémon to progress beyond a certain point, because he was just an arrogant snot and thought he could **** everyone. Well, kinda because that's basically exactly what he was.

I think that respecting trainers would have been a better message, since it applies to multiplayer battling, and to fellow competitors in all aspects of life. That's a better theme for kids because even though it can't be done in-game at least it applies outside of it.

I agree and I think that message does exist. For example the idea of not stealing trainers' Pokémon, and competing for the sake of bettering yourself and your Pokémon. Not to mention, even people like Giovanni show respect despite obvious antagonism, and after defeating him in battle he will graciously step aside. I think that's pretty sporting, it may not be abundantly obvious but I think it's pretty clear that it's there.

In my opinion, Pokémon's main theme that was more prevalent in Gen 1, 2 and 4 (which is why I preferred Gen 4 to 3 nostalgia*** my arse) is the theme of growth. I guess I'm just a sucker for that theme more than any other, it's the dominant theme of MM, Link's personal growth, and I suppose just the theme of growing through hardships and experiences into a better person is something I really enjoy in a game. It's a journey within a journey, I really like that theme. I also love it when things just seem to come back round to connect in plot points. I felt that Gen 1, 2, and 4 really pulled this off well, and Gen 3's GC games. I really liked the mirroring journeys of the player and Gary, culminating in a Pokémon League showdown, after which Professor Oak, the man who started it all, takes you into the Hall of Fame to etch your name in history.

Then GSC, it's not just the rival, it's Lance too. People that follow you on your journey, watching you grow and commenting when you face them at the end. Professor Oak meeting you again to comment on your growth as a person. Then of course if you had the privilege of playing Gen I, you got the ultimate rush in things coming full circle, where you basically one up your previous self. I mean Pikachu perhaps not, but pretty much everyone will have identified with one of the Kanto starters on Red's team, since we all love our first starter. To me it felt like just as we'd grown a bit in real life, the games grew with us and took us back on a journey. Seeing how things change, like the destruction of Cinnabar, which I was really sad about when I first got there. I'm sure there's no explanation as to why Cinnabar had a place in all Gen 1'ers hearts ha.

I suppose RSE was justified in trying to start afresh, I mean I'm a huge proponent of that. Thing is I fired up Ruby and I was completely excited, I played through the game and a good bunch of the GBA's effects and improved music really sat well with me. Thing is I didn't really feel like there was much of growth within the game, maybe I didn't particularly pay attention, but I mean I didn't pay that much attention to what the themes could be when I was 7-10 and I felt it. With Ruby I was what, 12 or so. I was still very young, young enough not to be jaded, I was young enough that every sort of advancement felt enormous, and yet... I dunno. Ruby and Sapphire just lacked that journey within a journey I seem to respond to.

Diamond and Pearl I played when I was 16 and I loved them. I loved them so much where I was initially thinking "if this isn't all that I'm probably gonna give up on Pokémon", after playing I pretty much had it in my mind that Pokémon would never leave my life ha. Sure it had outlandish legends and stuff, but the main villain was at least not just some idealist eco terrorist, but well, a selfish prick who hates everyone so much he wanted his own universe. Whatever though, wasn't as important as the return of the theme of growth being more apparent, with Cynthia constantly shadowing you on your journey before you have your final battle against her. It just worked so well.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying this as some sort of argument here, I'm just stating these things as some sort of insight as to why I really liked certain installments in the franchise. I will never dislike Pokémon unless the whole thing goes completely balls up, but I will say that there are certain installments in the series I prefer to others, and it isn't nostalgia related. My probable favourite (I don't like to pick favourites) is Pokémon Crystal. I will say that nostalgia certainly makes the earlier gen experiences sweeter in a way that no game post GSC has or ever will match, but I mean that kind of sweet feeling is something I get when I hear a ****ing Spice Girls track, and no, I don't even like the Spice Girls.

I just really really really wanna zig-a-zig-ahhhhhh

Edit: And to be clear, I have never not loved any main Pokémon game, it's just that when your standards and feelings are so strong the whole comparative effect makes it seem like you completely despise a certain game.

It's why it looks like I hate OoT when it's one of my favourite games of all time.

 

[Dre89]

Yes but you'll find that the Bunny Hood is a means of quicker transportation where movement around the map isn't in any way the meat of the game, it's the plot and the puzzles.


Pokémon is just as much about how you go about it as going about it. MM has that element in it too of course, rather how you go about it but again it's not applicable it works differently because it is a completely different game. Apples and oranges.

Pokémon isn't about getting from A to B as quickly as possible, it's about getting from A to B how you want to. That is the underlying point of the entire series. I suppose what I'm trying to get at is that the whole love and respect angle is alluding to that.

You have goron rolling and epona, which are meant to be fun experiences in their own right aside from quicker travel. The overworld is rich with life and content, which makes the travel a fun experience in itself. I'd say travel, and the overworld in general is a bigger deal in MM than pokemon.

I always assumed it was his lack of love and dedication that didn't allow his Pokémon to progress beyond a certain point, because he was just an arrogant snot and thought he could **** everyone. Well, kinda because that's basically exactly what he was.

But Oak says that he didn't treat his pokemon properly, which is different to not training them because you think you don't need to. The only thing which makes them stronger and better in battle is training them a lot, which you wouldn't associate with treating them with love and respect.

I agree and I think that message does exist. For example the idea of not stealing trainers' Pokémon, and competing for the sake of bettering yourself and your Pokémon. Not to mention, even people like Giovanni show respect despite obvious antagonism, and after defeating him in battle he will graciously step aside. I think that's pretty sporting, it may not be abundantly obvious but I think it's pretty clear that it's there.

I never said that theme was never there, but that doesn't change the fact that the redundant message of loving pokemon got way too much dialogue. The trainer message should've got that level of dialogue instead.

In my opinion, Pokémon's main theme that was more prevalent in Gen 1, 2 and 4 (which is why I preferred Gen 4 to 3 nostalgia*** my arse) is the theme of growth. I guess I'm just a sucker for that theme more than any other, it's the dominant theme of MM, Link's personal growth, and I suppose just the theme of growing through hardships and experiences into a better person is something I really enjoy in a game. It's a journey within a journey, I really like that theme. I also love it when things just seem to come back round to connect in plot points. I felt that Gen 1, 2, and 4 really pulled this off well, and Gen 3's GC games. I really liked the mirroring journeys of the player and Gary, culminating in a Pokémon League showdown, after which Professor Oak, the man who started it all, takes you into the Hall of Fame to etch your name in history.

Then GSC, it's not just the rival, it's Lance too. People that follow you on your journey, watching you grow and commenting when you face them at the end. Professor Oak meeting you again to comment on your growth as a person. Then of course if you had the privilege of playing Gen I, you got the ultimate rush in things coming full circle, where you basically one up your previous self. I mean Pikachu perhaps not, but pretty much everyone will have identified with one of the Kanto starters on Red's team, since we all love our first starter. To me it felt like just as we'd grown a bit in real life, the games grew with us and took us back on a journey. Seeing how things change, like the destruction of Cinnabar, which I was really sad about when I first got there. I'm sure there's no explanation as to why Cinnabar had a place in all Gen 1'ers hearts ha.

I suppose RSE was justified in trying to start afresh, I mean I'm a huge proponent of that. Thing is I fired up Ruby and I was completely excited, I played through the game and a good bunch of the GBA's effects and improved music really sat well with me. Thing is I didn't really feel like there was much of growth within the game, maybe I didn't particularly pay attention, but I mean I didn't pay that much attention to what the themes could be when I was 7-10 and I felt it. With Ruby I was what, 12 or so. I was still very young, young enough not to be jaded, I was young enough that every sort of advancement felt enormous, and yet... I dunno. Ruby and Sapphire just lacked that journey within a journey I seem to respond to.

Diamond and Pearl I played when I was 16 and I loved them. I loved them so much where I was initially thinking "if this isn't all that I'm probably gonna give up on Pokémon", after playing I pretty much had it in my mind that Pokémon would never leave my life ha. Sure it had outlandish legends and stuff, but the main villain was at least not just some idealist eco terrorist, but well, a selfish prick who hates everyone so much he wanted his own universe. Whatever though, wasn't as important as the return of the theme of growth being more apparent, with Cynthia constantly shadowing you on your journey before you have your final battle against her. It just worked so well.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying this as some sort of argument here, I'm just stating these things as some sort of insight as to why I really liked certain installments in the franchise. I will never dislike Pokémon unless the whole thing goes completely balls up, but I will say that there are certain installments in the series I prefer to others, and it isn't nostalgia related. My probable favourite (I don't like to pick favourites) is Pokémon Crystal. I will say that nostalgia certainly makes the earlier gen experiences sweeter in a way that no game post GSC has or ever will match, but I mean that kind of sweet feeling is something I get when I hear a ****ing Spice Girls track, and no, I don't even like the Spice Girls.

I think a lot of the stuff you're saying, such as MM being a journey of personal growth is just your personal way of enjoying the experience. When we're kids and we play games for escapism, we're probably just applying our own life experiences to the game. The idea of pokemon and MM being about overcoming hardships and the like is probably a result of what was going on in your life at the time. For me, it wasn't about those things, but rather about an environment that I'd rather be in than the one I was in at the time, that had characters I'd rather be around than the ones that were around in my real life.

I just really really really wanna zig-a-zig-ahhhhhh

This was the first thing that came into my head when I read Spice Girls.