PM Arts and Alts Thread

[Rᴏb]

quills are too long, mouth is centered, eyebrows are weirdly pronounced, general head shape is unappealing...

basically he looks too much like how he did in sonic 06

 

[Xermo]

I don't understand the reference. SA2 S-tier completion animation or something?
EDIT: I'm dumb. I scrolled down and that's exactly what it is.

SA2 doesn't have unique victory poses based on rank.

Basically the same thing.

If Generations is basically Adventure 2 then Other:M is basically Prime.

>Also people complaining about Sonic's model because they're biased towards a particular design

 

[ArtfulHobbes]

Courtesy of based Silentdo0m.

http://www.gfycat.com/TallCriminalAmurratsnake

Wizzrobe.gif

 

[CBO0tz]

SA2 doesn't have unique victory poses based on rank.


If Generations is basically Adventure 2 then Other:M is basically Prime.

>Also people complaining about Sonic's model because they're biased towards a particular design

[snip]

Well, they got the City Escape level in both games.. So the Modern Sonic mode is probably essentially the same.

 

[Xermo]

I thought Director's Cut had different animations.

Well, they got the City Escape level in both games.. So the Modern Sonic mode is probably essentially the same.

There is no Sonic Adventure 2 Director's Cut. That's sonic adventure 1 for the gamecube you're thinking of.

Also, there wouldn't be such a huge controversy surrounding the Modern Sonic games and the dreamcast era games if Modern Sonic played the same.

 

[ThePlacidPlatypus]

quills are too long, mouth is centered, eyebrows are weirdly pronounced, general head shape is unappealing...

basically he looks too much like how he did in sonic 06

Not trying to be rude here, but that just sounds really picky. Like they're things that nobody would really notice unless you were intentionally looking for them.

 

[PseudoTypical]

Not trying to be rude here, but that just sounds really picky. Like they're things that nobody would really notice unless you were intentionally looking for them.

I think that's more subjective than you think. I've held the same opinion since I first played him in Brawl, and I imagine it's more than just the two of us that think this.

 

[Rᴏb]

Not trying to be rude here, but that just sounds really picky. Like they're things that nobody would really notice unless you were intentionally looking for them.

details matter to me, i don't know else to say.

this is a pretty dumb discussion to be having though, the PMDT is adamant about sticking with Brawl's aesthetic so editing existing character models is out of the question (unfortunately). there's no point in discussing how much better certain available models are compared to the PMDT's/Brawl's models because these things aren't changing at this point.

 

[Shin F.]

details matter to me, i don't know else to say.

this is a pretty dumb discussion to be having though, the PMDT is adamant about sticking with Brawl's aesthetic so editing existing character models is out of the question (unfortunately). there's no point in discussing how much better certain available models are compared to the PMDT's/Brawl's models because these things aren't changing at this point.

Since when does "sticking with Brawl's aesthetic" = "not editing existing models"?

 

[Star ☆]

Can we just have the Unleashed Sonic Model already? I hate the 06 one.

Though it's probably impossible now since his alts are modeled around the 06 one.

 

[Rᴏb]

Since when does "sticking with Brawl's aesthetic" = "not editing existing models"?

I meant replacing. My fault.

 

[Shin F.]

I meant replacing. My fault.

All the same, you're right that they're sticking with the aesthetic style, but you can improve / replace models while keeping in line with the aesthetic of the rest of the game.

 

[PseudoTypical]

Yeah, I agree with Shin. It's not the actual original models that count but the aesthetic. Improving things while being consistent sounds cool to me.

 

[Nefnoj]

Hey Nanobuds ! I've got a question! While the coding and stage wizards work on their stuff, what do you as a costume designer usually do? Since this update seems to emphasize mostly on stages, I feel like you'd be really really bored with no costumes to create.

Not trying to be rude here, but that just sounds really picky. Like they're things that nobody would really notice unless you were intentionally looking for them.

Are you a particular Sonic fan? Maybe these are things that stand out to fans of the Sonic games. I honestly never saw a difference between Sonic in any games other than classic Sonic... Which I never noticed until Sonic Generations.

quills are too long, mouth is centered, eyebrows are weirdly pronounced, general head shape is unappealing...

basically he looks too much like how he did in sonic 06

The game which we all try to forget. Would those changes be easy to make? How would the mouth be uncentered? The quills are part of a few attacks methinks, so that might be hard to achieve.

details matter to me, i don't know else to say.

this is a pretty dumb discussion to be having though, the PMDT is adamant about sticking with Brawl's aesthetic so editing existing character models is out of the question (unfortunately). there's no point in discussing how much better certain available models are compared to the PMDT's/Brawl's models because these things aren't changing at this point.

That's what made me nervous about the low chance of an official SJS Zero Suit.

 

[Rᴏb]

All the same, you're right that they're sticking with the aesthetic style, but you can improve / replace models while keeping in line with the aesthetic of the rest of the game.

They can, but I don't think they are going to considering the amount of work it would to to make new models, rig them, texture them, and adjust animations to accommodate them. If they don't think anything is wrong with the current models, they have no reason to improve/replace them regardless if they can or not. They've basically said this themselves too.

 

[CBO0tz]

Guys, we're not talking about changing just any character models(ZSS getting a holster doesn't require any animation changes). We're talking about changing textures, or adding new skins. If Sonic's model was considered too low in detail quality compared to the rest of the cast's textures, I think either Sakurai, or the PMDT would've changed that by now. The only thing I thought could be changed about Sonic was his textures to make him more detailed when viewed up close.

Speaking of details, one of the things that I noticed about this whole "Brawl aesthetic" thing is that while they say every character is highly realistic, there are actually quite a few who aren't. Granted, they're the ones who don't have a realistic counterpart in textures, but there could be some. The most prominent that I think could have some more detailed textures are the Pokemon characters.

Take Pikachu for instance. In Pokken Tournament, they're actually making the Pokemon look pretty detailed in appearance.
A while ago, they showed off this neat render for him, that I don't think anybody here has ever noticed.

Spoiler

That's a pretty darn fine example of the Brawl aesthetic if you ask me. If you zoom in and actually focus, you can see there's actual details like how fur would actually look on an animal. And that's what I'd like to see if I wanted to take a screenshot of Mario in his highly realistic denim overalls fighting a Pikachu.

Also, Lucario's texture in Pokken is way better than Brawl's.

 

[Nefnoj]

Guys, we're not talking about changing just any character models(ZSS getting a holster doesn't require any animation changes). We're talking about changing textures, or adding new skins. If Sonic's model was considered too low in detail quality compared to the rest of the cast's textures, I think either Sakurai, or the PMDT would've changed that by now. The only thing I thought could be changed about Sonic was his textures to make him more detailed when viewed up close.

Speaking of details, one of the things that I noticed about this whole "Brawl aesthetic" thing is that while they say every character is highly realistic, there are actually quite a few who aren't. Granted, they're the ones who don't have a realistic counterpart in textures, but there could be some. The most prominent that I think could have some more detailed textures are the Pokemon characters.

Take Pikachu for instance. In Pokken Tournament, they're actually making the Pokemon look pretty detailed in appearance.
A while ago, they showed off this neat render for him, that I don't think anybody here has ever noticed.

Spoiler

That's a pretty darn fine example of the Brawl aesthetic if you ask me. If you zoom in and actually focus, you can see there's actual details like how fur would actually look on an animal. And that's what I'd like to see if I wanted to take a screenshot of Mario in his highly realistic denim overalls fighting a Pikachu.

Also, Lucario's texture in Pokken is way better than Brawl's.

Frikkin' detail, maaaaan.

 

[AceGamer]

As much as I'd like improved pokemon textures, if they're gonna be based on Pokken then the PMDT has no reference for Mewtwo, Charizard, Squirtle and Ivysaur

Edit: and Jigglypuff lol

 

[Nanobuds]

Lucario looks terrible in Pokken, imo.

His fur is way too shiny and oily looking. It is too detailed. The texture is really high resolution, yet it has no depth. If they wanted to make him detailed and realistic, they needed to model hair, or create a material effect that makes the fur look 3D. Look at fur in Far Cry 4 or GTAV for next gen/PC. It's actually modeled and has depth.

It's a good idea, but they took it either too far or the wrong way in the game.

And the only difference in Pokken Lucario and Brawl Lucario is color, specular intensity, and texture resolution.

 

[Draco_The]

Lucario looks terrible in Pokken, imo.

His fur is way too shiny and oily looking. It is too detailed. The texture is really high resolution, yet it has no depth. If they wanted to make him detailed and realistic, they needed to model hair, or create a material effect that makes the fur look 3D. Look at fur in Far Cry 4 or GTAV for next gen/PC. It's actually modeled and has depth.

It's a good idea, but they took it either too far or the wrong way in the game.

And the only difference in Pokken Lucario and Brawl Lucario is color, specular intensity, and texture resolution.

What's your stance in all this discussion about changing default Brawl costumes?

 

[Nanobuds]

ZSS needs a makeover. Sick of those boob socks.

I agree with some suggestions, but others don't seem like it'll be worth the time to do. There are plenty of stuff on the Vault that people can use in custom builds if they don't like the default models.

also if we end up changing a few characters, we will see complaints like "why didn't X character get edited???" similar to complaints about alts.

 

[AceGamer]

ZSS needs a makeover. Sick of those boob socks.

I agree with some suggestions, but others don't seem like it'll be worth the time to do. There are plenty of stuff on the Vault that people can use in custom builds if they don't like the default models.

also if we end up changing a few characters, we will see complaints like "why didn't X character get edited???" similar to complaints about alts.

Lol you could tell those people it's because there isn't already a model available like in ZSS case, just like how there isn't already an obvious answer for some characters alt costumes like Ivy, Diddy, Olimar and some others X)

 

[Comeback Kid]

But Nano, this is old territory for you.

You did a great job with this. Even if only Sonic's head was changed to his Generations model it would be wonderful.

I really think one or two exceptions for what the team deems the worst offenders won't force you guys into slaving away at all the models.

As long as you were firm about the fact you won't do anything after that. This thread is people asking for stuff all the time anyway because it is so up in the air.

 

[Xermo]

A lot of you are letting recent designs taint your perception of the older models. It's one thing to want to improve a character to be on the same standards as the others (I don't even see what's wrong with the Zss model but whatever), but wanting radical redesigns because "m-muh side-mouth and generations head" is nitpicking at its finest.

 

[PseudoTypical]

A lot of you are letting recent designs taint your perception of the older models. It's one thing to want to improve a character to be on the same standards as the others (I don't even see what's wrong with the Zss model but whatever), but wanting radical redesigns because "m-muh side-mouth and generations head" is nitpicking at its finest.

I don't see why we ought to view it as being a less legitimate point just because newer things make us like it less. If it doesn't look as good as we want it to, regardless of why, why shouldn't we change it? It seems this view about Sonic isn't unpopular, and popularity is what seems most natural to appeal to when we're talking about changes.

 

[Xermo]

I don't see why we ought to view it as being a less legitimate point just because newer things make us like it less. If it doesn't look as good as we want it to, regardless of why, why shouldn't we change it? It seems this view about Sonic isn't unpopular, and popularity is what seems most natural to appeal to when we're talking about changes.

It's hardly a valid point. It's like playing smash 64 and saying how much better the game would be with smash 4 designs. I'd also hardly call the three people wanting a changed sonic the majority of the playerbase, including those that actually main/use/play sonic. Project M may be community driven, but the ideas that stem from one thread aren't always for the best.

What's good design choice is also purely subjective; this 'we' that you're referring to is also a minority.

 

[PseudoTypical]

It's hardly a valid point. It's like playing smash 64 and saying how much better the game would be with smash 4 designs. I'd also hardly call the three people wanting a changed sonic the majority of the playerbase, including those that actually main/use/play sonic. Project M may be community driven, but the ideas that stem from one thread aren't always for the best.

What's good design choice is also purely subjective; this 'we' that you're referring to is also a minority.

We're definitely not representative of the population of PM players, for sure, but I'm inclined to think there's more people with our opinion. I'm not sure I understand your analogy to Smash 64 though. PM's designing a new game based off an old game, which may or may not look better if improved in some ways as opposed to others. Sure, it's subjective, but if people generally like one look over another, it still seems good to change it.

 

[Xermo]

We're definitely not representative of the population of PM players, for sure, but I'm inclined to think there's more people with our opinion. I'm not sure I understand your analogy to Smash 64 though. PM's designing a new game based off an old game, which may or may not look better if improved in some ways as opposed to others. Sure, it's subjective, but if people generally like one look over another, it still seems good to change it.

The analogy to smash 64 was that replacing its design with smash 4's makes the game lose it's own aesthetic, whether or not it's a visual improvement. After a certain threshold, it stops being improvements and starts being pandering/preference/bias. It's why I love that the PMDT aren't forcing their own design preferences on the entire community and leaving the masses means to customize things ourselves (menus don't count, clearly).
Playing P:M is like playing a revived Brawl; the models fit. The game may feel new, but there's no need to fix what isn't broken, right.

 

[PseudoTypical]

The analogy to smash 64 was that replacing its design with smash 4's makes the game lose it's own aesthetic, whether or not it's a visual improvement. After a certain threshold, it stops being improvements and starts being pandering/preference/bias. It's why I love that the PMDT aren't forcing their own design preferences on the entire community and leaving the masses means to customize things ourselves (menus don't count, clearly).
Playing P:M is like playing a revived Brawl; the models fit. The game may feel new, but there's no need to fix what isn't broken, right.

I guess it just depends on the interpretation. We all approve the realistic elements of the models, but I for one think of PM as something more than Brawl. Brawl+ would probably be more in line with your idea (to me at least). If we keep with the realism and improve some models (and I trust their intuition on design preferences, though you're right that we can also customize), I don't see how anyone loses.

 

[TimeSmash]

While I think it would be interesting to have completely new models to further PM from Brawl and have even more of its aesthetic style as established by the alt costumes, stages, menus, and even animation tweaks, to build new models from scratch is asking a lot. Also as stated before it might feel like the PMDT is forcing us to use their models, although I'm sure there would be some sort of Vault pack with the original models. There's also to consider that the models could be of poor quality if they were rushed, as inconsistent looks across the cast would be visually unappealing. Not to mention the utter havoc that would be created from hitboxes,hurtboxes, animations and bone stuff haha I'd love to see what alternate models would look like, but it seems like SUCH a hassle when we have perfectly good models to use and even edit to look better if needed.

Unless PMDT does a Kickstarter, but no one can make money off this game, so...

 

[Nefnoj]

create a material effect that makes the fur look 3D.

And at this moment, Nanobuds thought to himself "do they know what Bumpmaps are?"
You raised me well, Pappi. I know my bumpmaps. They're the greatest thing to abuse.

They're not even compatible with Brawl, are they?

ZSS needs a makeover. Sick of those boob socks.

Why do people keep referring to it as that? Not to complain, I hate that particular part of Brawl Samus as much as the next man.

also if we end up changing a few characters, we will see complaints like "why didn't X character get edited???" similar to complaints about alts.

I think I mentioned that a while ago involving cannibalism and death.

But you guys have already done it with Olimar, Peach, Yoshi, even Wario to a degree, though they were all subtle. Maybe you could do the same with Zero Suit Samus and Sonic? Make all the changes so subtle that people don't notice until they actually look at them side-by-side. I sure as heck wouldn't notice the things that people noticed that I didn't notice.
Wait, what?

 

[Rᴏb]

A lot of you are letting recent designs taint your perception of the older models. It's one thing to want to improve a character to be on the same standards as the others (I don't even see what's wrong with the Zss model but whatever), but wanting radical redesigns because "m-muh side-mouth and generations head" is nitpicking at its finest.

How can something that's radical also be a nitpick? Make up your mind.

 

[CBO0tz]

But you guys have already done it with Olimar, Peach, Yoshi, even Wario to a degree, though they were all subtle. Maybe you could do the same with Zero Suit Samus and Sonic? Make all the changes so subtle that people don't notice until they actually look at them side-by-side. I sure as heck wouldn't notice the things that people noticed that I didn't notice.

What changes.. e.e

I've never noticed any changes

 

[Nanobuds]

And at this moment, Nanobuds thought to himself "do they know what Bumpmaps are?"
You raised me well, Pappi. I know my bumpmaps. They're the greatest thing to abuse.

They're not even compatible with Brawl, are they?


Why do people keep referring to it as that? Not to complain, I hate that particular part of Brawl Samus as much as the next man.


I think I mentioned that a while ago involving cannibalism and death.

But you guys have already done it with Olimar, Peach, Yoshi, even Wario to a degree, though they were all subtle. Maybe you could do the same with Zero Suit Samus and Sonic? Make all the changes so subtle that people don't notice until they actually look at them side-by-side. I sure as heck wouldn't notice the things that people noticed that I didn't notice.
Wait, what?

I'm on mobile so excuse my laziness to split the quote:

I'm sure you meant to say normal maps, right? Autocorrect typo, I assume... ;p but neither bump nor normal maps work in brawls. Now if we somehow we're able ro modify the shader engine...

I refer to thdm as boob socks because everyone else does.

Heh.

We even added subtle changes to someone else for 3.6!!

 

[Nefnoj]

I'm on mobile so excuse my laziness to split the quote:

I'm sure you meant to say normal maps, right? Autocorrect typo, I assume... ;p but neither bump nor normal maps work in brawls. Now if we somehow we're able ro modify the shader engine...

I refer to thdm as boob socks because everyone else does.

Heh.

We even added subtle changes to someone else for 3.6!!

According to my Google, normal maps are a type of bump map? I think? Normal maps have the blue and purple stuff, I need to remember that.
Also, SUBTLE CHANGES HYPE!!

What changes.. e.e

I've never noticed any changes

Olimar's light, Peach's metal, Yoshi's eggs, and Wario's stock costume. At least from what I've seen, those characters (except Wario) have files replacing all original Brawl models, so they could have other subtle changes that I've never seen.

 

[UltimateWario]

If Generations is basically Adventure 2 then Other:M is basically Prime.

>Also people complaining about Sonic's model because they're biased towards a particular design

How are you...what? Are you seriously comparing the difference in quality between Generations and Adventure 2 to the one between Prime and Other M? SERIOUSLY?

Spoiler

>greentexting outside of 4chan
Stop.

 

[Comeback Kid]

Other M has a few questionable design decisions for an otherwise decent game with a mediocre story that overwhelms the gameplay. Adventure 2 has a few questionable design decisions for an otherwise decent game with a mediocre story that overwhelms the gameplay.

One of the few subjective opinions I actually agree with Xermo on.

Unless he meant the opposite, then he is pretty much wrong.

 

[megamanofnumbers]

Sonic's model really isn't all that bad. ZSS and Jigglypuff on the other hand...

I love SJS' rebuild of her model. Infinitely better designed than, as Nano says, the boob socks; while Jigg's is incredibly dead looking and empty in both expression and soul.

 

[AceGamer]

Sonic's model really isn't all that bad. ZSS and Jigglypuff on the other hand...

I love SJS' rebuild of her model. Infinitely better designed than, as Nano says, the boob socks; while Jigg's is incredibly dead looking and empty in both expression and soul.

Lol well the most Jigglypuff did in the anime was smile and pout so she doesn't have that much personality honestly

 

[Nefnoj]

Jiggs's is incredibly dead looking and empty in both expression and soul.

That's how she's supposed to look, haven't you ever fought one with an experienced player behind the wheel? She's a nightmare.