PM 3.5 Stats List (Still WIP) Wavedash ranks added!

[Chesstiger2612]

I don't think there is a special protection. That would result in the tail being exposed early while the rest of Mewtwo is still protected.
When someone apllies shield pressure from the front this is no problem but a crossup can result in a shieldpoke afaik.

 

[Ali Baba 177]

Lucas is on there twice under air mobility.

 

[Comprehend13]

Wasn't there a ssbpm reddit thread with character data (including some things missing from this thread)? Does anyone have a link to that...I can't seem to find it.

 

[JRC LSS]

Just a heads up, it looks like DK/Link/Sheik/Toon Link don't have values for walking speed. Great job overall though, keep it up!

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Don't know if it belongs here, but here are some stage details. Not complete yet:

Spoiler

PM stage details

Yoshis Story Randall timings

Spoiler

Right (from low to up)
7:55:50
7:50:50

Left (from up to low)
7:45:50
7:40:50

Right
7:35:50
7:30:50

...

Smashville

Spoiler

Starts Left
7:48 Right
7:38 Left
7:28 Right
7:18 Left
...
Note that it travels slow when it ends travelling in one direction and starts faster again after changing direction

Dracs

Spoiler

high-low-high
7:47
7:43
sloped high-low-high
7:26
7:22
high-low-high
7:08
7:03
higher-mid-lower (stairtype)
6:48
cirlces (not clockwise)
5:58
lower-mid-high (stairtype)
5:43
5:37
outer high-low-outer high
5:23
5:18
sloped low-high-low
5:03
4:58
sloped 2 (lower to the center)
slowly wandering centerwards
4:46
slowly wandering more outwards
4:38
2 mid-outer platforms
4:24
4:18
combining to one (big) mid platform
4:03
wandering left
3:53
halfway offstage leftside, now changing direction
3:43
mid reached
3:33
halfway offstage rightside, now changing direction
3:23
3:18
sloped low-high-low (lower towards the center)
3:03
2:58
one platform
2:41
2:38
classic drac (high-low-high)
2:23
high-very high-high
2:02
1:58
low- very big&high - low (norfairesque)
1:43
1:38
one higher and lower platform at the same horizontal position
1:22
1:18
2 mid-outer platforms
1:03
1:00
no platforms
0:25
2 platforms coming in from outward, from here on you can actually land on them
0:08
0:05
classic drac for the last seconds
0:00
TIMEOUT

Halberd

Spoiler

around 7:48:75
You die if you are still on the ground then
around 6:41:50 not dieing downwards anymore
6:34 Classical Halberd stationary begins
from there on its dependent on laser + bomb randomness

Castle Siege

Spoiler

7:21:25
No downward KO on castle transformation (wall from downward pushing up)
7:18
Cave transformation
6:36:75
Transition again, no downward KO on Cave transformation
6:33
Castle transformation
5:51:25
No downward KO on castle transformation

 

[metroid1117]

Yoshis Story Randall timings

Spoiler

Right (from low to up)
7:55:50
7:50:50

Left (from up to low)
7:45:50
7:40:50

Right
7:35:50
7:30:50

...

To expand on this data, the general rule for Randall on YS is that it appears from either side when the units digit for seconds is "5" and then goes back into the stage when the units digit for seconds is "0". It comes out of the left side when the 10s digit for seconds is even and out of the right side when the 10s digit is odd.

 

[Mera Mera]

To expand on this data, the general rule for Randall on YS is that it appears from either side when the units digit for seconds is "5" and then goes back into the stage when the units digit for seconds is "0". It comes out of the left side when the 10s digit for seconds is even and out of the right side when the 10s digit is odd.

I use the elephant in the background. In Melee this doesn't work (I think?), but in PM the elephant and Randal are on the same timer. So when the elephant starts to go behind the right trees, Randal comes out on the lower right of the stage, and when the elephant starts to get behind the left trees, Randal comes out from the upper left of the stage. Also he goes back into the stage as the elephant comes back from behind the trees.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

All of those are very easy to calculate, YS and SV 20 second period, CS a 90 second, and Drac normally has 15 seconds of one setup and then transforms 5 seconds, except for some differences.

I work with even/ uneven normally on YS. For Dracs, also FoD, SV, Norfair and so on it is pretty intuitive because the process normally is predictable (even if it helps to look at everyone of Drac's setups specifically). On Halberd and CS changes are rare events so knowing the timings should be enough. For Yoshi's Island there is a random variable in it but generally platforms appear every ~11 seconds and stay out for ~4 seconds, you cannot be sure about it though. But it can often help if you use some kind of walljump/wall cling/shine stall because if there was no platform the last few seconds chances are pretty high one is appearing now

 

[TechMage299]

This info thread needs to be finished.

 

[PyroTakun]

In the OP I noticed that Ike was missing from the SHFF list, but there's also a character missing from the 11-15 slot.

I guess it's safe to assume Ike falls under that category? (Bad pun intended.)

 

[Taka.]

Thanks a lot for this data. Helps a ton!

 

[GabPR]

Does anyone know how many frames ledge intangibility lasts on Project M?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

37 iirc. Melee was 38, Brawl 36

 

[Halfhead]

I came here to find information on squirtle's grab range, but that seems to be missing...

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Squirtle:
Standing grab range: 10.823 (mid/high)
Dash grab range: 7.433 (very low)
Sorry, no information about pivot grab

You can use Squirtles movement options though to make the range weigh in even more, like a RARWD JC grab which goes very far

 

[Chesstiger2612]

This info thread needs to be finished.

I could do some of it, which info do you want specifically?

 

[TechMage299]

I could do some of it, which info do you want specifically?

I kinda meant it as joke, but i everything i need is there

 

[Chesstiger2612]

About this shield poking mechanic, apparently there is another variable determining how fast your shield gets damaged by attacks (although they are influenced the same way by holding shield, shield regeneration is also not influenced by it).

Shield strength

Spoiler

Giga Bowser 15.75
Bowser 5.25
Dedede 4.2
Ganon 4.2
Donkey Kong 4.06
Charizard 3.745
Samus 3.675
ROB 3.64
Pit 3.5
Zero Suit Samus 3.5
Marth 3.43
Roy 3.43 (*cough* cloned *cough*)
Falcon 3.36
Ike 3.36
Snake 3.36
Zelda 3.325
G&W 3.255
Peach 3.22
Sheik 3.22
Sonic 3.15
Falco 3.115
Fox 3.045
Link 3.045
Luigi 3.01
Lucario 2.905
Mewtwo 2.905 (*cough* cloned *cough*)
Squirtle 2.87
Wario 2.87
Jigglypuff 2.8
Ness 2.8
Toon Link 2.8
MK 2.73
Mario 2.695
Wolf 2.695
Lucas 2.66
Olimar 2.66
Ice Climbers 2.625
Ivysaur 2.625
Diddy 2.52
Kirby 2.45
Pikachu 2.45
Yoshi 2.1

I'd like to have detailed frame data on dashes, for example the frame on which run becomes available and the window for foxtrot.

Run animation starts at [number in frames]. From my tests it is possible to interrupt one frame earlier though (so the given number minus one):

Spoiler

24: Giga Bowser
23: Bowser
21: Mewtwo
18: Captain Falcon, Donkey Kong, Marth, Peach, Roy, Zelda
16: Ice Climbers, Ness, Pikachu, Yoshi, Zero Suit Samus
15: Ganon, Jigglypuff, Kirby, Link, Mario, Pit, ROB, Snake, Toon Link, Wario
14: Falco, Fox, G&W, Ike, Ivysaur, Lucario
13: Charizard, Diddy Kong, King Dedede, Meta Knight, Lucas, Luigi, Olimar, Sonic, Wolf
11: Samus
10: Sheik, Squirtle

You can foxtrotting by letting the stick go between the second frame and last frame of your inital dash (number above minus one). You can foxtrott from frame 18 on (if your first dash was on frame 1), so for some charaters it is instant and some have to wait longer. They could run->crouch->dash instead for reversing their dashdance purposes. If you repress the stick too early you end up in the run animation. Normally it is more ideal to let the stick go on the last frame to minimize/neutralize the deceleration caused by tractio with your dash&run acceleration.
Remember that if you foxtrott, there is no window to the end of the next foxtrott so you could wait out traction slows you down to a certain point and then input the next value.

I could also search for the Dash&Run Acceleration and Traction Values, the complete dash dance lengths, as well as for foxtrott lengths dependant on how far you allow your character to slow down.

EDIT: It seems it works a bit different with Bowser and I can't read the data out as with the other characters (same for Giga Bowser). I assume though that this means he can foxtrot immediately and run-cancel from frame 11 on.

Just a heads up, it looks like DK/Link/Sheik/Toon Link don't have values for walking speed. Great job overall though, keep it up!

Spoiler

DK:

Walk Initial Velocity: 0.1
Walk Acceleration: 0.1
Walk Maximum Velocity: 1.2

Link:

Walk Initial Velocity: 0.2
Walk Acceleration: 0.1
Walk Maximum Velocity: 1.2

Sheik:

Walk Initial Velocity: 0.2
Walk Acceleration: 0.1
Walk Maximum Velocity: 1.2

Toon Link:

Walk Initial Velocity: 0.2
Walk Acceleration: 0.1
Walk Maximum Velocity: 1.2

Looks like Nintendo did some copy&paste here.

 

[JOE!]

For shield strength, is a bigger or smaller number better?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

A bigger one is better. It probably works a bit different with Yoshi, I could imagine that his unique shield is "buffed" in a sub action/sub routine so it isn't included in the shield strength attribute.

 

[Life]

Is there a thread for stage statistics, e.g. blast zone sizes?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I found this (old database (?)) for ceiling height, not sure if it takes into account where the stage is positioned in relation to the full room between the blast zones:

Spoiler

Halberd Stationary << YS < Halberd Flying < Castle Siege 1 = WW < PS1 = PS2 < Castle Siege 2 = FD < Skyloft = Rumble Falls = Metal Cavern < Yoshi's Island =Distant Planet = Lylat= Smashville < BF < FoD = Green Hill Zone = Norfair < Skyworld < Dracula's << DL64

 

[Life]

So in a more legible form, using the stages that are legal at my local:

Short ceilings:
Yoshi's Story
WarioWare
Pokemon Stadium (both)
Final Destination

Medium ceilings:
Yoshi's Island
Distant Planet
Smashville
Battlefield

Tall ceilings:
FoD
GHZ
Skyworld (this doesn't seem right, tall center platform might have something to do with it)
Drax
DL64

Does this seem about right?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

@ Life
Skyworld is right, but if both players are much on the platform, of course in more cases upward hits will KO earlier.
I'd put FD also in medium but that doesn't really make a difference, the order should be right.

Has anyone any more questions? I will try to answer them.

 

[QuickRat]

Pretty interesting thread! Thank you very much. I must say something: shouldn't you add dash grab range? Or it is the same as standing range in Project M?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Dash grab range:

Spoiler

1) Bowser : 21.123

2) Marth : 16.793

3) DeDeDe : 16.623

4) Roy : 15.813

5) Charizard : 15.623

6) Snake : 13.123

7) Mewtwo : 12.343

8) ROB : 11.903

9-10) Diddy/Wario : 11.623

11) Sheik : 11.563

12) Jiggs : 10.903

13) Luigi : 10.873

14-15) Donkey/Ike : 10.623

16) Ganon : 9.903

17) Pit : 9.683

18) Meta Knight : 9.623

19) Falco : 9.213

20) Lucario : 9.123

21) C.Falcon : 8.963

22) Peach : 8.713

23-24) Ness/Zelda : 8.623

25) G&W : 8.593

26) Sonic : 8.143

27) Fox : 8.123

28) Mario : 7.923

29) Wolf : 7.623

30) Squirtle : 7.433

31) Pikachu : 6.473

0) Kirby : ?

0) Link : ?

0) Lucas : ?

0) Olimar : ?

0) Ivysaur : ?

0) Ice Climbers : ?

0) Samus : ?

0) ZSS : ?

0) Toon Link : ?

0)Yoshi : ?

Credits go to the 3.0 Database on Reddit. Somewhere there were also the ones for tetherers but I forgot where

 

[JOE!]

A bigger one is better. It probably works a bit different with Yoshi, I could imagine that his unique shield is "buffed" in a sub action/sub routine so it isn't included in the shield strength attribute.

Yeah, yoshi is what threw me off there lol

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Is there any work being put into tech rolls? I think that would really help for tech-chase characters to know who is easy.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

It is mostly done in the character sections. Do you have any special question or should I try to do a list (probably tomorrow then)?

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Not really, just making my rounds through the characters (mostly theorycraft) and landed on Charizard. I heard someone mention some of the bad techroll people (GaW, Olimar) and was curious how everyone ranked. Partially for matchup speculation in my head and the rest just curiousity.

*edit* Also, on dash grabs. Are the numbers you provided the size of the grab box? I ask because Brawl Ness had poor grab range, but got a really nice boost, so it was actually really solid. I would assume it would be grab box, but I guess it could be distinace from original start point or distance from body...

 

[Chesstiger2612]

The boost isn't included in the dash grab range Would be pretty hard to do it with. Some characters also have good boost grabs so any variables weigh in.

For tech rolls, it is universal the animation last 40 frames, the first 20 are intangible. If a techroll is "good" or "bad" is determined by the animation (more distance is good, especially in the first frames because you want to be safe in the vulnerable frames).
G&W and Olimar have indeed pretty small techrolls, Charizard is about average.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

@ Chesstiger2612

That's what I figured. I just thought I would make sure.

That's interesting that they all last the same. Game and Watches looks so slow... One reason I asked was I wanted to see how good Fox's is and maybe suggest a nerf to it. The reasoning being: FD can always be banned, which made him more manageable. In P:M, you never can take a smart fox to FD. If you slowed his tech roll down, it would make him more manageable on other stages.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I don't think it would be good individualizing those universal values for several reasons, but I think reducing the tech roll length might be possible. I don't think it would be a good nerf though, making Fox even more vulnerable is like buffing Ganondorfs moves in terms of damage and knockback...

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Oh, ok. A lot of people were calling the lack of ability to CP FD a massive buff, more so then others get from it. I thought that could help balance it out. I don't want to turn this into a buff/nerf war and derail this wonderful topic, so maybe another time.

 

[KinGly]

I always thought G&W played a lot like mario. They have a lot of statistical similarities.

 

[DrinkingFood]

When are we getting gravity values
I need these because

 

[Sensei]

I usually just play and feel out the physics but this definitely seems helpful if I want to get serious and train. Great resource!

 

[DiZZ]

you forgot ike in shff

 

[1MachGO]

Fixed the fact that Ike was missing under SHFF ranks

Btw, does anyone know how to reliably calculate initial dash ranges?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

(Dash Initial Velocity)*((Run-cancel frame)-1))+((Dash&Run Acceleration)-(Traction))^2*1/2*((Run-cancel frame)-1))
You obviously need to replace
1/2at² with 1/2at(cap)²+v(max)*t(cap) if the character reaches the cap.

Spoiler

0xC Traction
0x10 Dash Initial Velocity
0x14 Dash/Run Initial Velocity A
0x18 Dash/Run Initial Velocity B (no real clue, they mostly either turn out the same or one turns out to be zero, so mostly it is still possible to judge)
0x1C Dash Terminal Velocity (used for v(max) if reached)
Run-cancel at frame:

Spoiler

24: Giga Bowser
23: Bowser
21: Mewtwo
18: Captain Falcon, Donkey Kong, Marth, Peach, Roy, Zelda
16: Ice Climbers, Ness, Pikachu, Yoshi, Zero Suit Samus
15: Ganon, Jigglypuff, Kirby, Link, Mario, Pit, ROB, Snake, Toon Link, Wario
14: Falco, Fox, G&W, Ike, Ivysaur, Lucario
13: Charizard, Diddy Kong, King Dedede, Meta Knight, Lucas, Luigi, Olimar, Sonic, Wolf
11: Samus
10: Sheik, Squirtle
Might test Bowser and Giga Bowser specifically because the given frame number is just their last animation change, which is initial dash->run transition for everyone else but not for them. I assume the value is somewhere between 10 and 15, will test again

Correct me if anything is wrong