PM 3.5 Stats List (Still WIP) Wavedash ranks added!

[dude it's raining]

The OP's aerial mobility list doesn't have link and has 2 entries for lucas, so I'm assuming one of them is a typo

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Actually, Link is on aerial mobility under .06 Lucas is on there twice. However, I don't think Meta Knight is...

 

[victinivcreate1]

Meta Knight's wavedash length?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Meta Knight has a traction value of 0.9 which is the same as Jigglypuff's, the traction value is only bigger for Lucario, Link, Peach. I don't want to do all the testing (a few other factors weigh in a little) but just from the traction values MK would have shared 37th/41

 

[TheGravyTrain]

What about dash dance/initial dash? As another category...

 

[Chesstiger2612]

What exactly do you want to know? The transition to run animation is posted already, as is the dash speed.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

All I see is running speed and walking speed, nothing about length or speed of initial dash.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

All I see is running speed and walking speed, nothing about length or speed of initial dash.

You are right, I'll add it.

Theoretical Dash Initial Velocity:

Spoiler

Wolf 2.1
Lucario 2.05
Captain Falcon 2
Ike 2
Falco 1.9
Fox 1.9
Giga Bowser 1.9
Samus 1.86
Donkey Kong 1.8
Pikachu 1.8
Toon Link 1.8
Meta Knight 1.75
Lucas 1.725
Diddy Kong 1.7
Sheik 1.7
Sonic 1.7
Zero Suit Samus 1.7
Charizard 1.5
Game&Watch 1.5
Kirby 1.5
Link 1.5
Mario 1.5
Marth 1.5
Pit 1.5
Ness 1.45
Ice Climbers 1.4
Ivysaur 1.4
Jigglypuff 1.4
King Dedede 1.4
Mewtwo 1.4
Olimar 1.4
Roy 1.4
Yoshi 1.33
Squirtle 1.32
Ganondorf 1.3
Luigi 1.3
Snake 1.3
Wario 1.3
Zelda 1.275
ROB 1.24
Peach 1.2
Bowser 1.1

Unfortunately, that is only the on-paper value because every character has a Dash&Run Terminal/Maximum Velocity, and those whose initial dash velocity is officially higher therefore have another real dash initial velocity. The Terminal/Maximum Velocity is often mistaken for the Run Velocity because you normally reached it already when you start running.

I will mark those characters with a star who reached their terminal velocity at the beginning of their initial dash.

Real Initial Dash Velocity

Spoiler

Captain Falcon 2
Wolf 2*
Fox 1.9
Lucario 1.85*
Donkey Kong 1.8*
Pikachu 1.8*
Meta Knight 1.75
Lucas 1.725*
Diddy Kong 1.7
Giga Bowser 1.7*
Sheik 1.7
Sonic 1.7
Zero Suit Samus 1.7
Toon Link 1.6*
Ike 1.55*
Samus 1.55*
Charizard 1.5
Falco 1.5*
Game&Watch 1.5*
Kirby 1.5*
Mario 1.5*
Marth 1.5
Pit 1.5
Ness 1.45
Ice Climbers 1.4*
Ivysaur 1.4
Jigglypuff 1.4
Mewtwo 1.4*
Olimar 1.4
Roy 1.4
Link 1.35*
Yoshi 1.33
Squirtle 1.32
Ganondorf 1.3
Luigi 1.3
Snake 1.3
Wario 1.3
Zelda 1.275*
ROB 1.24
King Dedede 1.22*
Peach 1.2
Bowser 1.1

About dash dance lengths, I might do the exact values in the future, until then, you can estimate the distance based on the "real initial dash velocity", "dash/run terminal velocity" and "transition into run animation values".
For the last values, here you are:

Run animation starts at [number in frames]. From my tests it is possible to interrupt one frame earlier though (so the given number minus one):

Spoiler

24: Giga Bowser
23: Bowser
21: Mewtwo
18: Captain Falcon, Donkey Kong, Marth, Peach, Roy, Zelda
16: Ice Climbers, Ness, Pikachu, Yoshi, Zero Suit Samus
15: Ganon, Jigglypuff, Kirby, Link, Mario, Pit, ROB, Snake, Toon Link, Wario
14: Falco, Fox, G&W, Ike, Ivysaur, Lucario
13: Charizard, Diddy Kong, King Dedede, Meta Knight, Lucas, Luigi, Olimar, Sonic, Wolf
11: Samus
10: Sheik, Squirtle

EDIT: It seems it works a bit different with Bowser and I can't read the data out as with the other characters (same for Giga Bowser). I assume though that this means he can foxtrot immediately and run-cancel from frame 11 on.

 

[1MachGO]

Sorry I have been neglecting this thread, thanks a lot for your work, Chesstiger. I'll definitely whip up a program to calculate initial dash lengths.

 

[standardtoaster]

Not sure how useful this is to you but I made a script and exported all character attributes into a spreadsheet. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NDHPUnfn8P0rzNxz09AcORlNqUNEu3S_KuDuZAT8_Uk/edit?usp=sharing

 

[victinivcreate1]

@ Chesstiger2612
I see you have the run animation lengths chart.

How does MK have one of the shortest, when he is considered to have one of the best DDs in the game?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

@ Chesstiger2612
I see you have the run animation lengths chart.

How does MK have one of the shortest, when he is considered to have one of the best DDs in the game?

High dash speed, and there is always the possibility to run-cancel->dashdance out of run animation

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I will intend to update stuff when 3.5 is out, anyone wanna help checking what is still correct and what not? Plus, there might be new mechanics in it.

 

[psiaf]

I will intend to update stuff when 3.5 is out, anyone wanna help checking what is still correct and what not? Plus, there might be new mechanics in it.

I'm willing help. Shouldn't be too hard to check some of these with debug mode.

 

[1MachGO]

I will intend to update stuff when 3.5 is out, anyone wanna help checking what is still correct and what not? Plus, there might be new mechanics in it.

Yeah, I'll be updating the OP once 3.5 comes out. Plus all the other stuff I planned on doing

 

[BLUX]

what about character friction? I'm curios because the only thing i don't like about project m is the slipperiness of charecters

 

[standardtoaster]

Made an updated spreadsheet of 3.5 attributes. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1uBtFBP86K6QcjIHUMU_WS5aeEeG-xWWnDU47pG52Chc/edit?usp=sharing

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Made an updated spreadsheet of 3.5 attributes. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1uBtFBP86K6QcjIHUMU_WS5aeEeG-xWWnDU47pG52Chc/edit?usp=sharing

Thank you!

By the way, the unknown attributes are still unknown? Everyone of them could possibly something the PMDT wants to change but doesn't know why yet. Or has the team already tried changing them and nothing happened?

 

[standardtoaster]

They're just unknown and we haven't really bothered looking into them I guess. We can accomplish pretty much anything we want with the existing known attributes.

 

[JayTheUnseen]

Made an updated spreadsheet of 3.5 attributes. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1uBtFBP86K6QcjIHUMU_WS5aeEeG-xWWnDU47pG52Chc/edit?usp=sharing

Stinking mods,ruining the fun of list-making with their cheating designer tools.

Just joking.

 

[liam g]

Hi

 

[RevengeOfTheStyle]

This is great! Thank you!

 

[InfinityCollision]

Could I possibly get a list for DJ heights?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

@ InfinityCollision

There is no clear value for it, fallspeed, Jump Vertical Initial Velocity, and Vertical Air Jump Multiplier play a role. So I will just create a list without values from testing, I can't guarantee everything is correct. For multi-jumpers the first midair jump is used.

Spoiler

+: Yoshi, Mewtwo
A+++: Ness
A++: Falco, Fox
A+: Lucas
A: Bowser, Sheik
A-: Luigi, Peach, Wolf, Ice Climbers, Squirtle, Lucario, Zero Suit Samus, ROB, Sonic
A--: Captain Falcon
B: Wario, Mario, Donkey Kong, Charizard, Ike, Olimar, Snake, Pit
B-: Diddy Kong, Pikachu, Ivysaur
C++: Zelda, Toon Link, Ganondorf, Samus, King Dedede, Marth, Roy
C+:Mr. Game&Watch
C: Link, Kirby, Meta Knight
C-:Jigglypuff

Letters, +s and -s don't say anything about the difference, I just used it as intern sorting based on the individual tests. In a row the characters aren't sorted specifically. Only if 2 characters are in different rows I could distinguish their DJ heights based on platform tests.

The testing method consists on running from a stage (on diverse stages), instantly double jumping and testing if characters can reach certain platfroms with that (and if yes, with impact or with no-impact land). Some characters couldn't be separated that way so I have listed them as equal even if there might be minimal differences.

Sorry for letting you wait so long.

 

[InfinityCollision]

I can work with that. Thanks for taking the time to test everything.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Characters' dash attack behaviour on the edge:

Spoiler

Slides off:
Diddy Kong, Donkey Kong, Kirby

Ledgegrabs if you hold the opposite direction:
Mario, Luigi, Bowser, Yoshi, Captain Falcon, Ice Climbers, Mewtwo, Charizard, ZSS

Neither slides off nor ledgegrabs:
Wario, Peach, Wolf, Fox, Falco, Zelda, Sheik, Link, Toon Link, Ganondorf, Lucario, Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Samus, Lucas, Ness, Pit, Meta Knight, Dedede, Ike, Marth, Roy, Olimar, ROB, Game&Watch, Snake, Sonic

Needless to say, using dash attack to cover one option and grabbing the ledge afterwards is heavily underused, it covers multiple options and if you play a character in the 2nd categoty you should consider it as edgeguarding method.

 

[Apollo Ali]

Can you imagine if Dedede could ledgegrab off his dash attack, LOL ID NEVER GIVE UP ON HIM

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

What is ike's shield release recovery time?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

The shield release animation is universal and lasts 14 frames, the 15th frame is actionable again. WD OoS is therefore recommended because it has almost the same duration, shrinks your hurtbox during SpecialLanding, and you can move with it. Even if you want to stay where you are, doing a standing WD or a minimum distance WD can have advantages over releasing shield.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

The shield release animation is universal and lasts 14 frames, the 15th frame is actionable again. WD OoS is therefore recommended because it has almost the same duration, shrinks your hurtbox during SpecialLanding, and you can move with it. Even if you want to stay where you are, doing a standing WD or a minimum distance WD can have advantages over releasing shield.

Hmm in melee, i remembered itt ranged from 14 to 17
Is it only 14 in pm?

 

[fjieawoifo]

Could anyone define some of the things on the spreadsheet posted earlier like guard on max momentum, how does ground to air jump momentum work with jump h max velocity, how does horizontal air friction work with air mobility, does vertical air friction affect fallspeed along with gravity, for dash and run acceleration does it combine a and b like air mobility, is ground friction the sole determining factor for wavedashes, is air mobility acceleration and deceleration. Also what values would you have to edit to get a good moonwalk, and what values would help with a dash dance. Just one last question would having a good airspeed help a character get out of a chain grab or would fallspeed gravity and weight be the determining factors. Just want to know what some of the values are when editing character values in pm for fun.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Hmm in melee, i remembered itt ranged from 14 to 17
Is it only 14 in pm?

I can't really tell without testing, but everyone I tested so far has 14 frames of animation.

Could anyone define some of the things on the spreadsheet posted earlier like guard on max momentum, how does ground to air jump momentum work with jump h max velocity, how does horizontal air friction work with air mobility, does vertical air friction affect fallspeed along with gravity, for dash and run acceleration does it combine a and b like air mobility, is ground friction the sole determining factor for wavedashes, is air mobility acceleration and deceleration. Also what values would you have to edit to get a good moonwalk, and what values would help with a dash dance. Just one last question would having a good airspeed help a character get out of a chain grab or would fallspeed gravity and weight be the determining factors. Just want to know what some of the values are when editing character values in pm for fun.

Guard on max momentum: If normally more momentum would be applied which would accumulate to a value greater than the guard on max momentum, the momentum will only reach this maximum value and can't surpass it. This guard only applies in cetrain animations.

Ground to air jump momentum: How much of the momentum which you had when grounded (for example by dashing) gets conserved when jumping. It is a relative value (for example 0.8, which means 80% of your grounded momentum gets conserved when jumping).

Horizontal air friction: Reduces your horizontal air velocity by a certain value per frame.

Jump h max velocity: A maximum value for horizontal velocity that can't be surpassed. It works together with ground to air jump momentum as follows: If the velocity that resulted from the transfered momentum, calculated with the ground to air jump momentum value, is greater than the maximum velocity (which is the case for most characters' dash jumps), then your velocity will be the jump h max velocity. Otherwise it will have a lower value depending on the momentum you had when grounded.

Air mobility: This value shows how fast you can change your horizontal momentum by tilting the control stick. It is mostly noticeable if you tilt the control stick in the reverse direction. It is capped by the maximum h air mobility.

V air friction: I think it affects fallspeed by reducing your velocity, a confirm would be nice from someone who knows it for sure.

About the wavedash, you can enhance the wavedash with dashing afterwards and there other variables play a role but if you don't count that ground friction is the variable that determines it, since air dodge velocities are the same and if the angle is the same only that makes a change.

For a good dash dance the Dash Initial Velocity is very important because you can start off very fast if you have a high value here. If you want to take it to the "extremes" it is also important to keep Dash&Run Terminal Velocity in mind because it caps the velocity. Depending on your definition of a good dash dance the dash->run transition frame (I posted it earlier in this thread) is also important, a high value will give you longer dash dances and more usage for pivots (example: Marth), with a low value you can still dash-dance with the dash(transitions into run)->crouch->dash technique, and while your pivots aren't as useful you can cancel the run animation with crouch (example: Sheik).

About the moonwalks I am not completely sure, but it certainly has to do with the Dash&Run Acceleration values (probably summed up) being bigger than the Ground Friction value, as it is very much the case for a few characters who have good moonwalks and not the case for characters who can't moonwalk).

Gravity and weight are the more important values for escaping chaingrabs.

 

[dude it's raining]

So Kadano has a neat list of the Melee cast's Grounded Actionable Ledge Intangibility.
Did the PMDT do anything intentionally in character design about this? I'm thinking about fiddling with debug mode and making a PM version of Kadano's chart (figuring out how pre-ledgegrab ECB states affect each char's grounded actionability is gonna be tuff).

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Hmm in melee, i remembered itt ranged from 14 to 17
Is it only 14 in pm?

I actually just found an old @ standardtoaster post:

Spoiler

Group A
---13 frames recovery time
---3 characters: Peach, Zelda, Jigglypuff


Group B
---14 frames recovery time
---35 characters: Mario, Luigi, Bowser, Wario, Donkey Kong, Diddy Kong, Falcon, Link, Toon Link, Sheik, Ganondorf, Fox, Falco, Wolf, Zero Suit Samus, Pikachu, Lucario, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Charizard, Ness, Lucas, Marth, Ike, Dedede, Pit, ROB, Mr. Game & Watch, Snake, Sonic

 

[Jacob29]

Apparently Bowser's spotdodge is wrong.

 

[Strong Badam]

@ 1 1MachGO Do you plan to update this based on 3.5's changes? @ standardtoaster has made a great spreadsheet that should help quite a bit:

Made an updated spreadsheet of 3.5 attributes. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1uBtFBP86K6QcjIHUMU_WS5aeEeG-xWWnDU47pG52Chc/edit?usp=sharing

If you don't plan to update it, I'd like to see if I can get someone else to do so. It's been outdated for 3+ months now and I'd like to clean up the stickies in this section ^^

 

[1MachGO]

@ 1 1MachGO Do you plan to update this based on 3.5's changes? @ standardtoaster has made a great spreadsheet that should help quite a bit:


If you don't plan to update it, I'd like to see if I can get someone else to do so. It's been outdated for 3+ months now and I'd like to clean up the stickies in this section ^^

Yes, I love stats so I absolutely plan to update. I've been putting it off like fraud but I guarantee changes will be made within less than a week.

 

[Strong Badam]

Yes, I love stats so I absolutely plan to update. I've been putting it off like fraud but I guarantee changes will be made within less than a week.

I'll hold you to this!~

 

[zezfmkoj]

Can someone explain to me all the positive and negative benefits of horizontal air friction. Like an explanation of what having a high horizontal air friction does for jigglypuff and wario. Does it affect your air speed making it harder to get to max speed, or does it help those characters slow down in the air?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

@ Z zezfmkoj
Higher air friction means your velocity in the air gets reduced by a higher amount per frame. This reducse your horizontal travel distance when jumping directionally. It makes crossups and travelling in one direction while airborne harder, you also cover less horizontal distance with one dash short hop aerial having multiple active frames. It makes weaving in and out, and spacing outside of a certain range even after approaching with a forward directional jump easier as your velocity in one direction is decreasing so you are faster at reversing your direction.