Playing to damage, not to kill

[MasterfulVivi]

When I'm playing my friends, I distance myself from them until they finally crack and just run at me. By the time it happens a Hyphen Slash is good enough.

Great point TC. Although I do it naturally, it's a good reminder.

 

[K 2]

aww...you didn't quote me ESAM.... =(

 

[OverLade]

Good read.

People shouldn't sacrifice a safe playstyle in desperation to get a kill.

For example, Falco players who camp until their opponent is at 100% then go for an Usmash. Why not keep camping and kill with a ftilt? It's gay, but it's smarter than trying to kill with a laggy move that will be easily punished if it misses.

I wouldn't use this as a rule, but it depends on what character you play anyway. As MK I dont have to do much worrying about what move I'll kill with.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

While I try and play an aggressive Wario, I almost never worry about landing/saving my kill moves. The way I figure it, they're going to die eventually, and I'm outplaying them to begin with, so it should be fine enough.

 

[AfroQT]

While I try and play an aggressive Wario, I almost never worry about landing/saving my kill moves. The way I figure it, they're going to die eventually, and I'm outplaying them to begin with, so it should be fine enough.

I literally feel the exact same way.
I love you reflex, no homo.

 

[BBQ°]

This article is true except when versing Lucario. Once he's in kill range, just be extremely patient and wait for an opening. Damaging Lucario more than needed just makes it worse for you.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I'm doing this for most people, not the few who actually do it, which are the more elite players....

 

[choknater]

Good point to send out to the people who need it. Thanks, ESAM.

This thread helps me reflect on my playstyle since I main Sheik lol... The moves I get most of my kills with are nair, fair, bair, dsmash.... Snake and Dedede usually don't die till 160~200%, especially if my moves are stale. It's just a matter of playing fast and solid enough so that I don't take damage while I rack up extreme damage. It's a high-risk style of play, but that's just how I like it.

Another point I'd like to bring up is that people tend to "save" their moves so that their KO moves don't stale. However, I think this should be more intuitive, because it's still better to use the best option in whatever situation. If I have to dsmash a lot with MK to win a certain match, then I will. If I have a shuttle loop opportunity at a lower %, I will take it. As long as I keep racking up damage, I may just kill with a random uair at 160%. Who cares if I allowed the opponent's damage to reach a high number, as long as I played with my best options and didn't take a lot of damage in the process.

Not that saving moves is a bad thing... I just think it's unnecessary Characters usually have more than one or two KO moves. Sheik has like five decent situation ones... and she's SHEIK.

 

[CrAzYdRuNk]

Only problem with playing to damage, is that you are allowing them more time to damage you. Where as if you can get a kill move off early and kill them at a low kill percentage, you can put up more damage on them before losing the stock lead you have.

Now, I know you said that NEVER going for kills is a bad idea, but that doesn't cover it. Actively seeking a kill at high percentage is what you need to do, which means your not playing to damage, but to kill. The way you execute it shouldn't be to spam smashes, but your still playing to kill.

 

[Sukai]

Hm....

What a slow and calm theory.
This in my opinion really hurts alot of characters who rely on a kill move to make ends meet.
Sure its a fine concept for characters who's killing while racking up damage is a second nature, but for the characters who have issues landing a decent kill--or to better rephrase, characters who rely on a set kill move to stay in the game (i.e. Sonic, Falco, Fox, Sheik, etc) this hurts them and their style.
Yeah the "elite" players don't have to worry about it, because they play the top/high tier characters, basically for their kill strength, pretty contradictory to your theory.

Seriously, think about it for a second.
Why would the pros use characters like Meta Knight, Snake, Marth, etc if they didn't have the killing power/ability needed to get the job done?

This isn't the kind of fighting game with health bars, where your said theory is irrefutably correct, this is a game where a kill move is needed to get the advantage.
It is true that range, priority, power, and speed are all things that are needed to be factored in equally, but in the end it all comes down to who kills whom first, and the better character + better player is bound to get that done. It's what determines what characters are better than others, and more importantly what players are better than others.

And thats not even counting in stale move negation.
If the primary purpose was just to rack up damage, then (using Fox as an example) his up smash should be used commonly, even at lower percentages when it won't kill. The up smash is Fox's primary kill move, if it becomes stale, the opponent will survive at higher percentages, thus giving Fox more time to take damage. Sure you can unstale the move with a down air and a few lasers, but why factor that in if you're primary goal is to just build up damage until stale move negation no longer matters when a simple dash attack is enough to kill?
The goal of the game is to kill, and all the better if all the faster.
Because it's not as cut and dried as it was in melee, doesn't mean it should be scrapped. You just need to approach it differently, this isn't Melee after all.

 

[choknater]

This thread is pretty much about making good decisions. Just make good decisions!

Spoiler

reduction ftw.

 

[Zylar]

What a slow and calm theory.
This in my opinion really hurts alot of characters who rely on a kill move to make ends meet.
Sure its a fine concept for characters who's killing while racking up damage is a second nature, but for the characters who have issues landing a decent kill--or to better rephrase, characters who rely on a set kill move to stay in the game (i.e. Sonic, Falco, Fox, Sheik, etc) this hurts them and their style.
Yeah the "elite" players don't have to worry about it, because they play the top/high tier characters, basically for their kill strength, pretty contradictory to your theory.

Seriously, think about it for a second.
Why would the pros use characters like Meta Knight, Snake, Marth, etc if they didn't have the killing power/ability needed to get the job done?

This isn't the kind of fighting game with health bars, where your said theory is irrefutably correct, this is a game where a kill move is needed to get the advantage.
It is true that range, priority, power, and speed are all things that are needed to be factored in equally, but in the end it all comes down to who kills whom first, and the better character + better player is bound to get that done. It's what determines what characters are better than others, and more importantly what players are better than others.

And thats not even counting in stale move negation.
If the primary purpose was just to rack up damage, then (using Fox as an example) his up smash should be used commonly, even at lower percentages when it won't kill. The up smash is Fox's primary kill move, if it becomes stale, the opponent will survive at higher percentages, thus giving Fox more time to take damage. Sure you can unstale the move with a down air and a few lasers, but why factor that in if you're primary goal is to just build up damage until stale move negation no longer matters when a simple dash attack is enough to kill?
The goal of the game is to kill, and all the better if all the faster.
Because it's not as cut and dried as it was in melee, doesn't mean it should be scrapped. You just need to approach it differently, this isn't Melee after all.

Commenting on your example.
The point it to land a move that best fits the situation, to increase damage through whatever is the best way to do so, thus making more kill moves available. So I doubt using Fox's upsmash more commonly can be considered as the best option for any situation.
The point is to stop drastically changing your playstyle to get those KO moves once they are within KO range to the point that it's easy to predict what you'll do next.

Those characters who rely on kill moves probably won't use that move unless they know it will hit, as punishment for something because it is the best option.

So once they are up at that range, don't use that Fsmash just because IF it hits it will kill, use whatever would be best in that situation.
Of course eventually there will be human error, a trip, or something to open up the situation where using a kill move IS the best option.
But you have to wait for the opportunity or create it, but using a move over again and hoping it hits takes away you're chance to damage so that you're next best killing move (Faster but requires more % damage) will now be an option for a kill if there is an opportunity.

In short : Stop being predictable when they are at high %, and still play smart.

 

[cj.Shark]

this is only true for some characters
characters with reliable damage options should/will do this, (think falco or pit)
Characters without reliable damagel options(beside punishment) should go for the kills when possible because either way they put themseleves in a punishable position. (think lucas or D3)
characters with easy to land kill moves that oddly enough are less or equal to their damaging options in terms of punishment should go for the killing moves (think ness or snake)
Also being predictable is not a bad thing. For instance Falco Silent laser to upsmash is predictable as hell. but is a pain to deal with because you do not know when hes gonna dash.

 

[Phantom7]

Argreed. Spaming smashes = fail at smash bros

except Pit and MK...

 

[Sukai]

In short : Stop being predictable when they are at high %, and still play smart.

^^ Well, this makes more sense than that. vv

Please Brawlers, stop trying to go for the kill when they are at the right damages, but instead hit them until they die from anything.

It's not completely a matter of predictability, because a player is going to instinctively take more caution at higher percentages, so they expect kill moves off the back.
It's really a case of half and half.
If you're a character who has a set kill move, then you definitely should go for landing it, but you shouldn't be too obvious with your approach.
You can still play smart and get into "kill mode", but just hitting them warrants them to deal damage to you, and what if they're kill moves come around naturally, lets say Snake vs Ness.
If Ness just keeps landing those hits without even trying to go for a back throw, Snake can easily build up damage on him, and kill him without even trying, while Ness is still trying to kill without a kill move (like ESAM is suggesting). On a different scenario, if Ness just played his cards right, and sought for an opening in Snake's cautious movements, he could have seized an opportunity to grab and backthrow, saving more time and by that similar context, more damage.
I get what you're saying Zylar, "don't get stupid at high percentages".
But entering "kill mode" is not getting stupid, it's just alot of players get careless in kill mode.
So in contrast, if you're playing smart while aiming to kill, its much more simpler, and rounds up for a really good game, and improves you as a player.

 

[Ukemi]

In the end, it's still "Play to win. Don't damage the objects around you. (esp those who shake smash) Don't cheat."

But my take on it is win the safest, fastest way you can. Similar to freerunning.

 

[Zylar]

It's not completely a matter of predictability, because a player is going to instinctively take more caution at higher percentages, so they expect kill moves off the back.
It's really a case of half and half.
If you're a character who has a set kill move, then you definitely should go for landing it, but you shouldn't be too obvious with your approach.
You can still play smart and get into "kill mode", but just hitting them warrants them to deal damage to you, and what if they're kill moves come around naturally, lets say Snake vs Ness.
If Ness just keeps landing those hits without even trying to go for a back throw, Snake can easily build up damage on him, and kill him without even trying, while Ness is still trying to kill without a kill move (like ESAM is suggesting). On a different scenario, if Ness just played his cards right, and sought for an opening in Snake's cautious movements, he could have seized an opportunity to grab and backthrow, saving more time and by that similar context, more damage.
I get what you're saying Zylar, "don't get stupid at high percentages".
But entering "kill mode" is not getting stupid, it's just alot of players get careless in kill mode.
So in contrast, if you're playing smart while aiming to kill, its much more simpler, and rounds up for a really good game, and improves you as a player.

Some people really do act predictable while aiming to kill. Thus this was directed towards them. (We all know at least one person who does this, right? ^^')
I never said kill mode and being smart would never mix. Just that people tend to forget smart playing while aiming to kill. And smart playing will kill.

That Ness should go for the grab and back throw if he knows he WILL grab the snake.

ESAM is directing those comments to those ppl who don't play smart. I doubt that he was in any way saying don't never go for the kill, just damage them. (Although he probably wrote stuff that you can quote that makes it seem sketchy. >.<)

this is only true for some characters
characters with reliable damage options should/will do this, (think falco or pit)
Characters without reliable damagel options(beside punishment) should go for the kills when possible because either way they put themseleves in a punishable position. (think lucas or D3)
characters with easy to land kill moves that oddly enough are less or equal to their damaging options in terms of punishment should go for the killing moves (think ness or snake)
Also being predictable is not a bad thing. For instance Falco Silent laser to upsmash is predictable as hell. but is a pain to deal with because you do not know when hes gonna dash.

Wait something doesn't make sense. Falco's laser is predictable but you don't know when he's going to dash.

Agree with group one (With reliable damage options.)

For group two(Without reliable damage options) : "Either way they put themselves in a punishable position." So in your scenario, no option whatsoever for them is favorable, so just go for the kill. Okay if such a scenario exists, go for the kill.
How about a quicker stale move that knocks them back because of their damage and they can't punish you because of it? It put up their damage, and you're not in a punishable position. If you know you will land the kill move, GO FOR IT, but most likely the quicker stale move would be the better option, avoiding punishment for the missed kill move.

Group three ("Characters with kill moves that are less or equal to their damaging options in terms of punishment").
Wait your thinking in terms of punishment? GO FOR THE KILL!!! If it is not punishment, most likely damage attack is a safer, wiser decision.


In short : Don't ever stop playing smart. Use the better option, regardless if its a damage racking move or a kill move.

 

[Mota]

Toon Link has trouble killing =D

I don't use any kill moves until they're at kill percent because fear of staling them.
Then I try to kill by use of kill setups.

I mean your not gunna be using kill moves when they're not at killing % are you?

 

[Sukai]

That Ness should go for the grab and back throw if he knows he WILL grab the snake.

Well said.

 

[smallwolf24]

People always attempt to Utilt me w/ snake when I'm around my 100%+ when I play a lightweight character. Get's pretty funny though, just gives me time to do some damage, good read though :D

 

[OmegaXF]

I'm glad someone finally made a thread about this. I got sick of explaining this to people lol.
Good read

 

[Crizthakidd]

you have to remmeber that thsi is only a start, after u get better u will be able to rack up dmg and ko earlier than normal but yea begingers need to get the habbit or rack up dmg and do an occational grab instead of wasting a fresh smash that should akilled the next five second later situation

 

[kirbypika]

This is great! Now i'll never utilt! I'll dthrow until I win! FLAWLESS VICTORY!

 

[Plum]

My G&W habits carry over into my secondaries
G&W kills so ridiculously early that he can get away with it. (well to a degree... Spam is punishable and LIGHT weight and punishment is not a good thing)

 

[nightSN]

haha all lucarios laugh at your tittle (:

 

[Hive Mind]

Heh. This is what I've been doing all the time. I get someone like Bowser to 200% and then realize I can then kill him. Most of them are just accidents from fresh moves.

 

[Ills]

This is probably something I should remember, but won't in the middle of the match. But I should. And then later, when I've been beaten down mercilessly, I wonder why I didn't think of this.

Good read.

 

[Kitamerby]

However, one needs to remember to always seek an opening to kill the opponent once they reach the right %s. As soon as they reach the kill %, you should start searching harder for openings to outright kill.

In other words, keep damaging if you can't kill, but as soon as you see an opening, grab it.



...Unless you're fighting Lucario. :3


Actually, especially if you're fighting Lucario. Lucario's Aura is not something to fear, but to be wary of, like Luigi's Fire Jump Punch, one of GnW's smashes, or an IC Infinite, except it's arguably easier to land than any of them. Just keep hammering away and don't get hit/combo'd, and you'll do fine. If you overthink it and start slacking off for the sheer purpose of "not boosting his aura," you WILL die. Lucario at 100% CAN kill relatively easily at slightly below average KO %s, but so can many other characters. Just think of him as a lighter, less-ranged Donkey Kong with a projectile, lingering hitboxes, a stellar air game, a Bair that doesn't autocancel, and no grounded KO moves that come out in 9 frames.

Oh yeah, but just make sure you kill him first anyways. >>

 

[camzaman]

Good read, but you need to balance the two. For instance, if you went too far in this direction, you would probably miss out on a lot of spikes and gimps - it's not an easy thing, you have to constantly remind yourself to do both.

 

[Zylar]

I'm pretty sure few of the people that posted above me actually read only the first post.

Seriously, the point is to kill when you WILL kill, not hoping that you will.
DON'T change you're playstyle to kill mode so much that you forget about playing smart.