Player's Progression Limited by Intelligence?

[HADOOKEN]

I've been struggling to progress past a select few players in my area, and the thing is they dont even play high tier type characters.
I consistently have problems with a Lucas player and an Ike player.

The Ike player constantly states that Brawl is just a big mind game and he calls the Lucas player unskilled because he just dodges/ shieldgrabs all the time, both of which strategies are still beating me.

The Ike player was a Melee player, which is why i think hes so bitter that the Lucas player just picked up Smash @ brawl and can now contend with him using defensive tactics.

the thing is, i cant believe i'm losing to an ike, or a lucas. my marth has his shining moments, but my opponents seem to be able to adapt and win. with the Ike i feel his Melee SKILL is winning, while with the lucas i feel his INTELLIGENCE is giving him the edge.

so in all, i ask: do you feel that eventually u will be limited to your intelligence, no matter how much you know, or do you think that, with enough attention to SKILL(meta-game), you can overcome the "safest" of strategies?

 

[ZHMT]

Well, it depends on how you playing this Ike and Lucas. These are both character you can really camp against. Lucas has PK thunder or whatever, but once he uses it you can run in and attack.

Take your time and figure out the opponents strategy. When you know what they are going to do and still cant beat it, thats a problem. You must be doing something wrong. Reverse up b out of a shield ***** rolling and grabbing behind you. Down smashes work well too. With Ike you just need to defend until he leaves an opening. Play defensive and when he lags, attack, repeat.

Yes, a player CAN be limited on their intelligence, however your intelligence can expand and thats what makes you better. There is always room to improve, just condition the opponent and play patient and you will probably do better. Lucas and Ike shouldnt be too much a problem for Marth.

Also, videos would help a lot here.

 

[3xSwords]

Edit: I'll answer your question literally. Yes, you will be eventually limited by your intelligence b/c unless you have omniscient mind you will eventually fail, and yes if you have enough skill you can overcome the "safest" strategies b/c no strategy is perfect.

So in your case I would say you are just lacking skill and need to practice. Also memorize/review what to do and not to do in certain situations since whether you consider yourself smart or stupid both types can do it. I mean if you as Marth are losing to Lucas and Ike consistently that only means that you are constantly putting yourself in disadvantageous positions where they can destroy you. Also since both of these matchups are advantageous for Marth that means that unless the guy with the disadvantage is more skilled the Marth will win. As such step your game up and own *** with Marth already!!! >:^)

 

[ZHMT]

@3xSwords

Intelligence does matter in the sense you have to know what moves are best in what situations. You need to know to either play offensive or defensive. You need to apply mindgames and condition the opponent. This stuff takes intelligence if you ask me lol.

Brawl takes so much knowledge its not even funny. Being intelligent in school or education is unrelated to intelligence in Brawl.

 

[3xSwords]

Intelligence doesn't matter in the sense that people (stupid or smart) can memorize when to do such things such as play defensive and offensive. As such its just a question of whether or not you can perform the correct option in the situation.

However, humans have a funny thing called emotion. So they tend to scare themselves and/or be conditioned into guessing. So in theory if there was a "stupid" emotionless player who knew the best option in all situations then he would beat a "smart" person of lesser skill.

Edit: Well ZMT it doesn't matter whether or not stupid in life applies to stupid in Brawl. Regardless they are still "stupid" and I referred to them as such. Now I guess it just comes down to which "stupid" people we are talking about.

 

[Retroking2000]

actually intelligence is not a determining factor when it comes to playing well .

the key is memory

if you can remember the sequence of attack patterns your opponent inflicts against you

you will have the power to know the mind of the opponent.

There is no need to execute difficult combos, or to have deep knowledge of the nuances of a game when you know exactly what the opponent will do next.

As soon as they feel the presence of you inside their mind, they have that split-second of second guessing themselves which is the exact moment you finish them off

 

[ZHMT]

Yeah my only point was that if you play unintelligently with Marth, spamming smashes, running into ftilts from Snake, attacking Metaknight the entire game, your playing unintelligent and your knowledge is holding you back because you dont know how to play them, or Marth as a character.

This doesnt go for Marth but for all characters.

 

[Zankoku]

Intelligence in Brawl, or any fighter game, does not equate to the ability to get good grades in school (which isn't really a good measure of intelligence in the first place).

 

[3xSwords]

I was basically assuming off the fact that the OP is referring to intelligence in the wrong sense. Could care less, whether I took it the wrong way. And yes the school one is a horrible example because we all know people cheap and methods are being found everyday to surpass any methods of trying to catch cheaters.

Edit: I'm answering a question that doesn't even make sense.

"do you feel that eventually u will be limited to your intelligence, no matter how much you know, or do you think that, with enough attention to SKILL(meta-game), you can overcome the "safest" of strategies?"

Anybody want to word it better?

 

[Zankoku]

He's basically asking if Drephen really is god or if he can be beaten by Mew2King.

 

[3xSwords]

Drephen is god. Where was a more obvious choice than that?

Edit: Oh wait are you talking about melee or brawl? My answer is viable to change.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I don't really know what's that like.

As far back as I can remember I have had alot of passion for fighting games and as I got older I could analyze them and within a few days have good understanding of the engine and how the fighting system works. I may not actually play the game on a high level, but I had a high level of comprehension.

I do know what it's like to get stuck in a rut when progressing, but then I would just analyze my gameplay and move on from there.

And yes, you need intelligence to excel in fighters or any game really. But it's a different kind of intelligence then the kind you use in school. Although I find that most gamers are extremely intelligent and do get good grades as long as they don't let gaming interfere with their studies. I think playing games in general will increase your mental awareness over time and builds critical thinking skills.

And theoretically anyone who reads anyones style perfectly would always win regardless of character choice or what the match-up is, but we are human and we can't play perfectly, so thats where playing smart and safe comes in.

 

[3xSwords]

EL....

What is "I don't really know what's that like" referring too?

 

[NJzFinest]

so thats where playing smart and safe comes in.

And tiers!

 

[Emblem Lord]

Hmmmm, I worded that wrong.

I should have said something along the lines of, I don't know what's like to feel limited by my intelligence nor have I ever truly felt like I would stop getting better if I truly gave it my all to improve.

As it stands I have never given it my all though. My skill in pretty much any fighter is a side effect of my knowledge of the engine and not because I actually trained.

 

[greatone_12]

I think being an intelligent brawler is mostly just analyzing what works and what doesn't and adapting accordingly since almost any one can learn advanced techniques, if you can know what your opponent will/is doing you should be able to win easily in theory. That being said I think I know some things you can do, my friend also plays lucas a lot and sometimes ike and typically these should work well against them.

against lucas:
-dodge/shield/counter all pk thunder attacks, they are just horrible to get hit with, if you can manipulate yourself around one charge up a shield breaker/smash while he has no mobility.
-get him in the air and try to juggle, his aerials are outranged by yours
-avoid getting too close on the ground, he will just use pk fire/bat to punish you
-avoid the PSI explosion at all costs, DI away from it or try an air dodge if you are in the air, counter/roll away/shield if you are on the ground, don't forget to punish its huge lag
-when he runs at you roll away to try to draw out a laggy dash attack or grab, then use some short hopped f-airs

against ike:
-your moves are much less laggy than his and you are faster so you should be keeping your distance (except for an occasional burst f-airs) until you can take advantage of his lag . also keep that counter handy when he goes offensive and it should be devastating but also watch for his counter even though he should find it doesn't work as well as yours will.

I hope that was some help to you.

 

[3xSwords]

Well regardless its skill in the end whether you got it from knowledge or practice doesn't really matter as long as you have it.

Anyway how would you feel limited by your intelligence? Would you feel limited as in you yourself can not make yourself think on a higher level and thus feel limited or something else?

Edit: http://www.onemanga.com/Hayate_the_Combat_Butler/69/01/

This chapter esp. at the end just made me lmfao. Way too coincidental with this thread and "intelligence."

 

[PotatoTube]

I think that you should find other good players around you, to practice, because if you just play with these two players, you won't progress

 

[HADOOKEN]

I think that you should find other good players around you, to practice, because if you just play with these two players, you won't progress

theyre the only ones that can beat me atm, and i lost my wifi (although i hate wifi, anyways).

i just hate loseing, expecially when i know what my mistakes are. i just need a breakthrough of sorts to reach the next lvl.

 

[Retroking2000]

this thread has gotten rather interesting

 

[Zankoku]

theyre the only ones that can beat me atm, and i lost my wifi (although i hate wifi, anyways).

i just hate loseing, expecially when i know what my mistakes are. i just need a breakthrough of sorts to reach the next lvl.

You require no breakthrough. If you know your own mistakes, all you have to do is stop making them.

 

[Emblem Lord]

^^^^^^^^^^This!

 

[3xSwords]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^that!!!!

 

[HADOOKEN]

I know, right that'd b great,

but it seems if i do make a mistake Ike's Bair or Lucas' Fsmash make Marth die

 

[Zankoku]

Then stop ever putting yourself in a position to even risk getting hit by Ike's bair or Lucas's fsmash. >_>

 

[HADOOKEN]

well, i wont b able to post again for a bit, but
by the time i come back maybe i will have had better matches with these guys. i'm ganna start spammin' shield dolphin and Fair, although both ppl r good at breaking the strings of them... also, i think i'll start bateing them with DB combos, then try to trick them with shieldbreaker.

but then again, maybe it comes down to how smart they are to get out, or how much melee skill has transferd over. (i didnt play melee and started fresh with brawl, so maybe thats a factor).

 

[Zankoku]

Or maybe it's because you spam things and hope they keep fallin' for it, ze. You're overthinking how to play.

 

[e__]

I've been struggling to progress past a select few players in my area, and the thing is they dont even play high tier type characters.
I consistently have problems with a Lucas player and an Ike player.

The Ike player constantly states that Brawl is just a big mind game and he calls the Lucas player unskilled because he just dodges/ shieldgrabs all the time, both of which strategies are still beating me.

The Ike player was a Melee player, which is why i think hes so bitter that the Lucas player just picked up Smash @ brawl and can now contend with him using defensive tactics.

the thing is, i cant believe i'm losing to an ike, or a lucas. my marth has his shining moments, but my opponents seem to be able to adapt and win. with the Ike i feel his Melee SKILL is winning, while with the lucas i feel his INTELLIGENCE is giving him the edge.

so in all, i ask: do you feel that eventually u will be limited to your intelligence, no matter how much you know, or do you think that, with enough attention to SKILL(meta-game), you can overcome the "safest" of strategies?

I would first of all like to point out the chaingrab Marth has on Lucas.

Second, I would love for you to play Cincy's local Ganon, Sliq. Lately he's been playing as Bowser and Samus, but he would beat you with all of those characters, all of which Marth has a good advantage on. He's still one of the best local players, even though he doesn't play high tiers. He's just a better player than most others.

You 're losing because they're better players in general.

 

[Retroking2000]

i agree on the last part they are better than you .

by far if they are using low tiers to beat you

 

[HADOOKEN]

... thanks marth boards.

 

[Ryan-K]

i dont wanna sound cynical but i think its just cuz brawl is limited lol defensive play = the game

of course you can be smart and all that but -shrug-

losing is good for learning as long as you stay calm and pay attention to how you're losing. if you spend a day smashing just play throughout the day and try to remember what's killing u and just think about it randomly and how you can bypass it or not get hit by it or w/e try different things and experiment but just try not to implant "i only lost cuz character x is mad broken" or w/e into your head just remember specific reasons and what u had trouble dealing with. the best way to learn matchups i find tho is to use the character u have trouble with so u learn them inside and out.

 

[HADOOKEN]

You 're losing because they're better players in general.

i agree on the last part they are better than you .

by far if they are using low tiers to beat you

ah HA! i whooped that Ike lastnight/this morning!

i went back and watched some videos and started grabing the ledge, dropping down and parrying his up B, and that made a huge diffrence.

+ i listend to Ankoku's backhanded advice and i decided to stop making some obvious mistakes, i.e replacing lame Fsmashes with DB.

this Ike has waaay more skill than me tho... his Cap. Falcon is MELEE is crazy,

but if i keep applying what i learn here in these forums, i'll catch up.

 

[Zankoku]

I never give "nice" advice if I'm being serious about making someone improve. I figure that if they have a problem and know what the problem is then it's not going to get any better by sugar-coating the solution. <3

 

[Pierce7d]

Eh, you're lucky IMO. I WISH my friends would beat me more often. I firmly believe that not fighting better people on a consistent basis stunts your growth.

 

[ShadowBlitz]

Just practice with some Lv. 9 CPU Lucas or Ikes. Once you do, you'll figure out their attacks and how to dodge them, at what speed they're coming at you, and how you can dodge it to inflict some damage back.
Ike's smash attacks are perfect for countering, but most of the time, you can get hit by them because you never know when he's going to attack you. If you knew his attack patterns you could inflict some damage on him as well.
Same goes with Lucas. A trick that works with me is to stay away from him a bit. Most of his attacks take about a couple of seconds to finish. Take this time as an advantage to smash him. Since Lucas's attacks have a long duration, dodging and attacking is pretty useful as well.

 

[VietGeek]

Eh, you're lucky IMO. I WISH my friends would beat me more often. I firmly believe that not fighting better people on a consistent basis stunts your growth.

Indeed. I wish I would have someone that could play me as Meta Knight and **** my dreams for the next level. ;_;

 

[Retroking2000]

you guys need to play the people i play then haha i get ***** all the time