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Well, lets put it like this. Stealth Rocks changed the metagame, sort of like Garchomp did. Basically, every team in standard has Stealth Rocks on it and as such you have to consider that when you make a team. Because of the fact that Stealth Rocks takes off 25% of any Ice/Fire/Flying/Bug type and 50% of any combination of those two you basically cant have more than one or two of those types in your team(Unless they are combined with one of the types that resists it, steel, fighting, ground, grass) Fire/Flying types like Charizard or Moltres become less "Useful" and more "Gimmicky." Even Ho-oh is basically useless in Ubers just because losing 50% of your health in Ubers is basically like dying anyways. Fire types like Typlosion, Archanine, Houndoom and such see less use just because of stealth rocks. Other pokemon are hurt too, something like Honchkrow with its great attacking stats(and a priority move to get around its lame speed) and even HEAT WAVE now to get around Steels wont see any real use as it doesn't have the ability to switch in alot(Honchkrow is generally used as a hit and run pokemon, given a choice item)
The fact that Fareon didn't get Flare Blitz is an outrage. Not that it is, you know, fast enough to use it before getting EQ's or hitting a switch-in Heatran.
At least my froggy is resistant to SE, and he got a 120 base power move, with STAB.
I don't understand why people say "If only Flareon had Flare Blitz...". Suppose Flareon did have Flare Blitz. Then what? Flareon can't be a sweeper because it's too slow with base 65 speed. It can't be bulky because of base 60 defense. Sure it has 110 special defense, but that is offset by 60 HP. Adding Flare Blitz doesn't make its movepool any better either. It would have Flare Blitz, Superpower, and then what? Quick Attack, and Last Resort? Curse? Sub and WOW? It's movepool still sucks.
The only thing I could think of that it would be useful for is if it had Flare Blitz and was on a Trick Room team. Then it could be a semi decent sweeper with Life Orb, FB, Superpower, HP Ice, Filler.
Arcanine can do everything Flareon could do better, and look at how many Arcanine are running around. Arcanine has a better priority move in Extremespeed, better defenses (90,80,80) and has Intimidate. It also doesn't have to use HP Ice for dragons because it has Dragon Pulse, allowing it to use Ground for Heatran or Grass for Swampert. It also unlike Flareon, has a chance of actually killing those Dragon because instead of catching an EQ to the face, +Speed Arcanine can outspeed +Attack Dragons. Arcanine has Crunch for Ghosts/Psychics while Flareon only has Bite. It also can beat Gyarados one on one thanks to Thunderfang, unlike Flareon who with lose everytime (Flare Blitz would mean nothing in this situation). I could write more but I don't feel like it.
I don't understand why people say "If only Flareon had Flare Blitz...". Suppose Flareon did have Flare Blitz. Then what? Flareon can't be a sweeper because it's too slow with base 65 speed. It can't be bulky because of base 60 defense. Sure it has 110 special defense, but that is offset by 60 HP. Adding Flare Blitz doesn't make its movepool any better either. It would have Flare Blitz, Superpower, and then what? Quick Attack, and Last Resort? Curse? Sub and WOW? It's movepool still sucks.
The only thing I could think of that it would be useful for is if it had Flare Blitz and was on a Trick Room team. Then it could be a semi decent sweeper with Life Orb, FB, Superpower, HP Ice, Filler.
Arcanine can do everything Flareon could do better, and look at how many Arcanine are running around. Arcanine has a better priority move in Extremespeed, better defenses (90,80,80) and has Intimidate. It also doesn't have to use HP Ice for dragons because it has Dragon Pulse, allowing it to use Ground for Heatran or Grass for Swampert. It also unlike Flareon, has a chance of actually killing those Dragon because instead of catching an EQ to the face, +Speed Arcanine can outspeed +Attack Dragons. Arcanine has Crunch for Ghosts/Psychics while Flareon only has Bite. It also can beat Gyarados one on one thanks to Thunderfang, unlike Flareon who with lose everytime (Flare Blitz would mean nothing in this situation). I could write more but I don't feel like it.
This set actually provides some usability in the UU environment. Flareon has good special defense and with Max defense plus a power drop from WoW it can reasonably survive physical blows. Flare Blitz provides a powerful stab and Return allows you to hit water types as well as other Flash Fire pokemon. Quick Attack can be used to offset its low speed or take out Reversal/Flailers that are common in UU. Wish can allow further team support from Flareon and allows it greater survivability. Alternatively you can use HP Fighting to 2HKO Max HP Aggron.
You see this? This set could conceivably be used in UU because Flareon will actually be able to do something. Less of a sweeper, more of a statuser that can actually damage something. With Flare Blitz Flareon is no longer completely walled by Probopass. The idea isn't to make Flareon a OU pokemon, but at least a usable UU pokemon.
It still wouldn't even be OU for UU. Your set relies heavily on a 70 accuracy move. If it misses once your gonna die from Aerodactyl, Lapras, Poliwrath, Nidoking Altaria next turn. Ninetales laughs at you and can then set up. Swellow welcomes WOW and does what it does best.
Phrases such as "no longer completely walled" and "at least usable" show that it still wouldn't amount to anything worthy of the attention the subject brings. People talk as if Flareon w/FB = The Messiah. (This is not a direct attack on anyone here, just something I have observed) Maybe I should have made it clearer in my first post. Flareon with Flare Blitz would not be a big deal. Lapras getting Zen Heddbutt and Absol with Superpower impact the metagame much larger than Flareon with Flare Blitz.
As with anyone who has already read all the spoilers should know, Platinum has some new features that can change competitive play, but for those who do not wish to know these spoilers, I will spam the little post bit that you can see when you hover the mouse over the thread title so that one has an unability to see it. And if you're reading it from the thread title and wondering if I'll get to the point before you click on this blah blah blah, yada yada yada.
OK moving on, as we should all already know(because you clicked this with the acknowledgement of spoilers), new formes, level up moves for certain pokemon(Caterpie), and move tutors have been introduced into the metagame. This thread is for discussion on how it will change it. A link to move tutors is right here: Spoiler.
Some new pokemon/move combos can drastically affect which tier they're in i.e. Slaking with sucker punch.
Others improve the usefulness of a Pokemon already OU. i.e. Tentacruel with Rapid Spin + Knock Off.
Caterpie and other bug types get bug bite via level up so that expands their physical game.
Skymin has 127 speed, 120 sp. atk, serene grace, and air slash so it's going to ubers.
I do realize real Pokemon battling websites(smogon) should be handling this, but I'm wondering what we can come up with.
It's probably already been said but, Salamence, Gyarados and the other Dragons as well as the Grass Starters and Water Starters (Minus Empoleon) all getting Outrage.
I personally believe this will ruin the Metagame for most of us. Yeah yeah, Ice will destory most of these guys to just carry Weavile or something, right? Wrong. The chances of you switching in on one of these guys with a counter to them is minimal, chances are you're going to be the one forced to make the switch to counter (I'm mostly talking about Gyarados and Salamence here.) them. I'm almost certain that these two OU Titans will now be considered, if not placed, in the Uber Tier. Smogon recently placed Garchomp in the Uber Tier, WELL THAT THING DOESN'T EVEN GET DRAGON DANCE, something BOTH Gyarados and Salamence get ALONG with Outrage in this game.
Picture this, Bulky Gyarados EV Spread with Dragon Dance and Outrage on the same set. Can anyone say 6-0? This is probably going to force Gyarados and Salamence into the Uber Tier or have us all seriously think about who our lead pokemon should be. Gyarados was (to some extent) a common Lead off and even then is posed a huge threat as one, just imagen him now. Salamence not so much since it didn't have a defensivly secure set of stats as Gyarados did, but still threatening nonetheless. The only thing that might be able to resist this amazing combination is Bronzong or Metagross, but even then the Mence/Gyara is most likely not going to be scarfed with the appeal of DD and Earthquake will then just destroy Metagross and Waterfall will ruin Bronzong.
Dragonite has now been completely overshadowed and Garchomp is now going to appear as nothing to use in competitve play and we'll probably ask why the hell it was made Uber in the first place. If Garchomp was made Uber, then I'm certain Gyara and Mence will be as well.
Now onto the Grass Starters, Meganium and Venasaur getting Outrage is just lulzy, but the intresting two are Sceptile and Torterra, the latter not so much as Sceptile but still intresting. Sceptile did come with a Physical Set that did work very well in D/P, I know since I've used one for quite sometime. The only problem was it had nothing to counter Dragon Types other then Rock Slide or Stone Edge on the Physical Side of the specturm, Garchomp being the only one it really had to worry about. While it may not be amazingly useful or boost it up to the OU Tier I think a Swords Dance/Sub Leichi + Outrage Combo would make for quite the powerful combo. Torterra might be able to make use of it but I really don't see him being used any differently because of it. I still see him being the same BL Wall with Amnesia and Leech Seed.
Blastoise is never going to make use of Outrage since the addition of Iron Defense is much more appealing to me, Feraligatr will stay in the BL Tier because it's the same thing as Gyarados and Gyara just does a much better job of it. Swampert, eh, maybe it can make use of it. I'm not really sure on that.
Charizard and Typhlosion got Thunder Punch and while it doesn't do much for Typhlosion is makes and intresting attack on Charizard who can make use of Belly Drum and Dragon Dance, maybe it'll be more appealing as a physical attacker now, who knows.
Lucario finally got some elemntal punches in there (Ice and Thunder if I remember correctly.) which really makes me look at him with alot more intrest then I did in D/P. Now he can hit Gyara and Mence without fearing the miss of Stone Edge, and 4x Damage is always better then 2x.
Azelf got every Elemental Punch, I think We'll be seeing a tad more of his Physical Attack Stat being used because base 125 Atk backed with Punches and Explosion is pretty nasty. Still, it'll probably be a situational choice or a matter of preference and type coverage.
Some of these changes are very nice, while others are uncessecary beef ups of Pokemon who quite frankly don't need it. I seriously believe there are going to be a few more additions to the Uber Tier, but other then that I can't see many other Tier changes. Maybe Altaria will become BL with the addition of Outrage? (She gets Dragon Dance too.) But who knows.
As for this Stealth Rock Issue, I can't really see it being taken out of competitve play, I just can't for some reason.
And as for those Stats you Skymin you posted, I do hope those are its Base Stats and not the max. Still, if the defenseive stats and movepool aren't astounding like its Speed and SpA then It may not be made Uber right away. It already has a 4x Weakness to Ice and now that I've looked at its Level Up/TM/Tutor Movepool it doesn't really have anything that jumps out at me other then Seed Flare, in which case Blissy will just wall the hell out of this thing as a Special Attacker and Own it with TWave or Ice Beam. It does get Swords Dance but the only real Physical Attacks it could make use of with this are Seed Bomb and Zen Headbutt, it really doesn't come off as that threatening to me. Maybe the Base 100 HP combined with the Base 75 Defenses could make it somewhat of a wall/annoyer/staller. But I'm not too sure.
Looking at it right now I don't think Shaymin is going to be made uber. Yeah it outspeeds Weavile, but how is it going to KO it..? If the thing has a Focus Sash then Ice Punch is really going to ruin your day and Ice Shard ruins your counter of Sashing Shaymin. Still, I don't think Energy Ball with a 339 SpA (Neutral Nature toward SpA since most are probably going to want this thing Timid to get the 388 Speed.) is going to be enough to OHKO Weavile. (Maybe HP Fire is going to be a more welcome choice of Special Attack on it to counter the Ice Weakness.) HP Ice Jolteon flat out outspeeds it and OHKOs it with HP Ice. Shaymin just doesn't have enough right now to make it to Uber IMO, that and the fact it apprently reverts back to Land Form once you enter the Union Room or Connect to WiFi. Odd.
It's probably already been said but, Salamence, Gyarados and the other Dragons as well as the Grass Starters and Water Starters (Minus Empoleon) all getting Outrage.
I personally believe this will ruin the Metagame for most of us. Yeah yeah, Ice will destory most of these guys to just carry Weavile or something, right? Wrong. The chances of you switching in on one of these guys with a counter to them is minimal, chances are you're going to be the one forced to make the switch to counter (I'm mostly talking about Gyarados and Salamence here.) them. I'm almost certain that these two OU Titans will now be considered, if not placed, in the Uber Tier. Smogon recently placed Garchomp in the Uber Tier, WELL THAT THING DOESN'T EVEN GET DRAGON DANCE, something BOTH Gyarados and Salamence get ALONG with Outrage in this game.
Picture this, Bulky Gyarados EV Spread with Dragon Dance and Outrage on the same set. Can anyone say 6-0? This is probably going to force Gyarados and Salamence into the Uber Tier or have us all seriously think about who our lead pokemon should be. Gyarados was (to some extent) a common Lead off and even then is posed a huge threat as one, just imagen him now. Salamence not so much since it didn't have a defensivly secure set of stats as Gyarados did, but still threatening nonetheless. The only thing that might be able to resist this amazing combination is Bronzong or Metagross, but even then the Mence/Gyara is most likely not going to be scarfed with the appeal of DD and Earthquake will then just destroy Metagross and Waterfall will ruin Bronzong.
Hmmm, lets see, Gyarados with 435 Atk and 325 Spe with a non STAB move that locks it into just that move, or a Garchomp with 718 Atk and 333 Spe with ******** type coverage with amazing stab? Somehow, the Garchomp looks a little more frightening. Bulky Gyara is not that big of a threat and putting Outrage on it could possibly be the dumbest idea anyone could have as now you've removed part of its usefulness(Whats the point of being bulky if it's going to be locked into a move and quickly killed by something like HP Elec Suicune or Magnezone?) You my friend, are ********.
And as for those Stats you Skymin you posted, I do hope those are its Base Stats and not the max. Still, if the defenseive stats and movepool aren't astounding like its Speed and SpA then It may not be made Uber right away. It already has a 4x Weakness to Ice and now that I've looked at its Level Up/TM/Tutor Movepool it doesn't really have anything that jumps out at me other then Seed Flare, in which case Blissy will just wall the hell out of this thing as a Special Attacker and Own it with TWave or Ice Beam. It does get Swords Dance but the only real Physical Attacks it could make use of with this are Seed Bomb and Zen Headbutt, it really doesn't come off as that threatening to me. Maybe the Base 100 HP combined with the Base 75 Defenses could make it somewhat of a wall/annoyer/staller. But I'm not too sure.
Looking at it right now I don't think Shaymin is going to be made uber. Yeah it outspeeds Weavile, but how is it going to KO it..? If the thing has a Focus Sash then Ice Punch is really going to ruin your day and Ice Shard ruins your counter of Sashing Shaymin. Still, I don't think Energy Ball with a 339 SpA (Neutral Nature toward SpA since most are probably going to want this thing Timid to get the 388 Speed.) is going to be enough to OHKO Weavile. (Maybe HP Fire is going to be a more welcome choice of Special Attack on it to counter the Ice Weakness.) HP Ice Jolteon flat out outspeeds it and OHKOs it with HP Ice. Shaymin just doesn't have enough right now to make it to Uber IMO, that and the fact it apprently reverts back to Land Form once you enter the Union Room or Connect to WiFi. Odd.
Maybe your not aware of this, but Seed Flare has a 40% chance of lowering a foes SpDef by 2 stages. But Skymin has Serene Grace, bumping that chance to 80%. Thats an 80% chance that whatever switches into this won't survive a second hit(No, not even blissey) Even worse, it gets Air Slash, which allows it to flinch anything that may resist it into KO range before it can die. With Yache Berry, just like Garchomp, your first Ice attack will always fail to OHKO(unless that Jolteon has Choice Specs) It's type coverage allows it to OHKO almost any other sweeper in the game and almost every wall in the game is 2HKO'd by Seed Flare(assuming a -2 SpDef Drop)
it doesn't matter if skymin could do well in ubers or not. ubers is just the place where pokemon too good for the OU metagame go. lets say pokemon x is too good for OU but would get ***** in ubers. it would not matter if pokemon x sucks in ubers as the point of ubers is to hold the pokemon that would overcentralize the metagame or are an onstopable thet in ou.
Garchomp will not do well in Ubers. Yache Chomp isn't much of a threat anymore as there are very few things in Ubers that it can manage to scare off in order to set up(for reference Garchomp's Dragon Claw can only hope to OHKO Palkia with a +Atk nature, but will then fail to outspeed it and even then it may fail to KO) Even if Garchomp does cause a switch there are still things in Ubers that can outspeed it and OHKO it even with Yache Berry(Deoxys-A and Mewtwo come to mind, as well as the Lati Twins should they manage a free switch in as they attack the unprotected Dragon Type on the lower of Garchomps defensive stats) Choice Band Groudon can take even a +2 Earthquake and OHKO with Dragon Claw. Garchomp also lost the protection of sand veil in Ubers as Kyogre and Groudon are omnipresent and Tyranitar is far less common. I honestly think Garchomp would do better as a Choice Killer. His Attack stat may not be the highest in Ubers, but it hits the generally lower of the defensive stats in Ubers. His speed allows him to outspeed many threats so assuming they are weakened he should be able to do reasonably well as a revenge killer. A set I might use would be something like:
Less fearsome than CB Groudon but also faster. That 102 Base Speed stat is a blessing allowing Garchomp to outspeed a large amount of Ubers that sit in the Base 90/100 zone, most notably Palkia, Kyogre and Rayquaza. The idea is simple, either bring him in after something on your team faints and hit whatever switches in hard. STAB Dragon Claw is a huge bonus in Ubers as it deters Lati@s from attempting to switch in hoping to take an Earthquake and gives you a(slight) chance to 2HKO Giratina. Crunch eases prediction a bit as you still hit Lati@s and Giratina Super Effectively as well as Deoxys-D and Lugia. The last move is filler as Garchomp doesn't get great type coverage with his movepool(For an Uber anways) Brick Break allows you to take out any Blissey foolish enough to stay in against you as well as Darkrai and Tyranitar. Stone Edge can be used to hit Lugia harder and also allows you to OHKO Ho-oh.
Choice Scarf is another story. With Choice Scarf and a neutral speed nature you outspeed everything in Ubers except for Scarf Darkrai(and the extremely rare Scarf Deoxys-A) You no longer have strength to KO the slower, bulkier sweepers in Ubers, but can now take on the faster, frailer Ubers. The biggest selling point of Choice Scarf on Garchomp is its ability to outspeed +Speed Nature Deoxys-A and OHKO it. It also manages to outspeed Mewtwo and a once Dragon Danced Rayquaza, however it only manages ~62% to Mewtwo with Crunch and fails to guarantee a OHKO on Rayquaza without Stealth Rocks support. If you do use Choice Scarf go with Adamant as the extra speed from Jolly will be worthless.
What is making Heatran so popular anyway? The loss of a Garchomp threat, did it gain some uber powerful move combination in Platinum, or is it more useful in the Pt metagame?
Sczior is probably what made Heatran so much more popular, both as a counter and as a pokemon that compliments it perfectly. Heatran can take a Life Orbed SD Bullet Punch like its nothing then OHKO back with Fire Blast. Conversely, if something tries to take down your Scizor, its probably gonna be with a fire move and thats where having Heatran comes in handy.
There's also the fact that Scarftran is one of the best revenge killers in the game. Its speed combined with it's massive Special Attack stat and the coverage it gets from Fire Blast/Earth Power/HP Ice(Ironically this is basically the same exact type coverage as Garchomp) means not alot is safe switching into it, even more so because it can explode in something like Blissey's fat face.
What is making Heatran so popular anyway? The loss of a Garchomp threat, did it gain some uber powerful move combination in Platinum, or is it more useful in the Pt metagame?
Sczior is probably what made Heatran so much more popular, both as a counter and as a pokemon that compliments it perfectly. Heatran can take a Life Orbed SD Bullet Punch like its nothing then OHKO back with Fire Blast. Conversely, if something tries to take down your Scizor, its probably gonna be with a fire move and thats where having Heatran comes in handy.
There's also the fact that Scarftran is one of the best revenge killers in the game. Its speed combined with it's massive Special Attack stat and the coverage it gets from Fire Blast/Earth Power/HP Ice(Ironically this is basically the same exact type coverage as Garchomp) means not alot is safe switching into it, even more so because it can explode in something like Blissey's fat face.
One of the things I'm thinking about is if I still want to use Crobat or not. I used to lead with a hypnotizing Crobat, and now that the accuracey is getting reduced I'm not even sure if I want to keep him in at all or not. I don't really think I'll care about him without it.
Thunderpunch on Typhlosion is horrible. It's physical. And, most Typhlosions are leads which just use Eruption anyways.
He could learn T.Punch in G/S/C anyways.
Registeel, Mamoswine, Scarftran, Moltres, and a few others are capable of handling Skymin. You can also try your fun by Tracing Skymin's Serene Grace with Porygon2 and using some very fun attacks alongside it.
I would list some counters for Outrage mence, but I didn't do any damage calcs to back up my theories. An answer without evidence is useless.
![Terywj [태리]](/data/avatars/l/71/71007.jpg?1555906021){kind=avatar}
