PKAY FIAH! ~ Ness MU Discussion [INDEX PAGE + Various Discussions]

[Uffe]

lol, man you should play me more. I'm very slow. :3

Argh. If you're slow, I'm going to send you a PM to see if I can help you out. :D

 

[Gaussis]

Yeah, frame data is really only to confirm suspicions on whose attack comes first, but it isn't the only thing you should consider. Who cares if you have a 1-frame attack if it lacks range? Ideally, these attacks are usually the best, but there is much more to consider than just the frames an attack comes out.

His tornado isn't his only approach. It's only laggy at the end. You will have to shield the whole thing then punish it for it's ending lag. But tornados can throw you off guard. Remember that luigi will be mixing in their SH game. And what? Luigi's Nair will trade off with Ness's utilt. Yes luigi's air speed is crap we know that.

His Cyclone isn't his only approach, but it's his safe one. I don't know what other way he can approach without risking something. And Ness's utilt will outprioritize Luigi's Nair if he's at the peak of his jump. Trading hits is never a good thing if you have to approach.

Lol Ness has more range on the ground wtfux? What moves is his ground moves? o.O

Let's start with the jointed attacks shall we:

• Jab (3rd hit)
• Ftilt (not completely outranging, but it outprioritizes many moves)

And as for the disjoints:

• Usmash
• Fsmash
• Dash Attack

Luigi only has his fireball and his Cyclone, one which can be outprioritized by ftilt or absorbed and magnet canceled, and the other can get predictable.

Ness's PKT2 is more situational than luigi's shoryuken.

PKT can tailwhip into PKT2. Also, it has more range than his Fire Jump Punch. Unless you convince me, I don't see FJP less situational than PKT2.

You make it sound like his aerial speed sound poor piss. Luigi can gimp Ness. You just have to just bair him far enough for him not to recover.

Doesn't happen with good DI. Again, Luigi doesn't force Ness to use PKT and even if he does, he is neither fast enough, nor equipped with the tools to gimp him.

 

[Luigi player]

Well, I'm playing Ness and Luigi (sometimes), but there are not so many other Ness/Luigi players that I played with, so I don't really know much about the matchup.

I think it shouldn't be that hard for Ness to gimp Luigis recovery with dair/fair...
Ness is good in the air, but so is Luigi. Luigis air attacks are a little bit faster I think, especially his nair, which comes out on frame 2. What Ness has is his fair disjointedness and faster movement in the air.


Since I don't really have any experience in the matchup I can't really say anything specific...

I think it should be about even though. Maybe 55:45 for Luigi, because he can kill Ness way earlier if Ness doesn't get a gimp/pkt2 hit...

 

[thesage]

SoR is too slow lol.

Yea I don't really know much about this matchup, just that powersheild -> jab -> up-b is ****. Then again the only Luigi player I know of is Boss.

 

[PolMex23]

You guys are taking something to in depth for what its worth...

Because all these hypothesis and empty discussion on this match up is futile.

Im not pulling anything out of my ***.

This is a BAD MATCH UP for ness. No, not as bad as marths gay *** grab release garbage, but its bad.

The only problem for Luigi in this match up is abuse of NEss' Fair....with proper spacing, it will be hard for luigi to get close.

Since the Jab to Shoruyken is almost guaranteed since Ness is pretty light, it sucks to get close.

Trust me, we should move on. Actually, wait untill sunday or monday. Ill post up me an Maskys matches. Youll see the match up than.

 

[Masky]

You all best listen to Polmex... or he's gonna up-B everyone in the Ness forums.

 

[Gaussis]

You all best listen to Polmex... or he's gonna up-B everyone in the Ness forums.

He can only do that to one of us at a time. After that, he's PKT2 bait .

@PolMex23: Lolwut. Matchup analysis is futile? Dude, you haven't even given anything as a rebuttal to my argument. I gave you concrete stuff that is important to analyze here and you're just brushing it off.

Fair isn't the only thing that has range, you know. I gave you several ground moves that have range over Luigi. Those + utilt.

Now, unless you give rebuttals, then we can't advance this discussion now can we?

 

[Masky]

well Polmex and I are probably the only good players who have experience in the matchup and experience is more important than theory... though I'm not gonna offer my opinion on the matchup right now

 

[Gaussis]

Very true. However, usually experience can match theory if the experience reflects what is known/learned. If he gives an explanation to why he thinks it's a bad matchup, perhaps we would be able to see this better.

 

[_clinton]

well Polmex and I are probably the only good players who have experience in the matchup and experience is more important than theory... though I'm not gonna offer my opinion on the matchup right now

I have exp in the matchup...I just don't think it matters right now ^_^

 

[PKNintendo]

Funny thing is that you haven't really given any support to your claim other than you beat Masky. He's a good player, but one player doesn't determine the matchup.

I'm having trouble believing that Luigi's at an advantage, when he clearly has to approach. His Cyclone is viable, yet easily predictable and has lag at the end. Any aerials can be utilted since he jumps so high for a SH. Air speed is crap. Also, Ness (out of all people) has more range than Luigi on the ground (with the exception of Cyclone).

What Luigi does have are his Shuryuken BS which can kill at a low percentage. However, I would say that it is comparable to PKT2, which kills even lower. I say this because it really only happens under three circumstances

• Unexpected approach
• Jab/grab followup
• Tripping (no Johns lol)

Luigi also has an airgame similar to Ness's to a certain level. However, Ness has more range and is in fact faster than Luigi in this aspect also. Luigi beats Ness frame-wise, but since he lacks the speed and range to use this to his advantage, it doesn't mean much (except for the fact that you cannot be near him in the air).

I also can't understand where this gimping BS comes from. First of all, if Luigi is gimping Ness, then Ness is recovering wrong. He is far too slow to take advantage of PKT's speed (unless you count a rising Cyclone or a misfire missile as something, but it's situational). Second, he doesn't have specific attacks that launch Ness in a horizontal position, so he can't force PKT. Third, Ness has more range in the air, so I don't see it happening apart from a mistake.

That's it for now.

PKNintendo, you ignored my request. Twice . It's ok though.

What request?!?

 

[Earthbound Zero]

He requested for you to revisit Wario I think. ^^

EDIT: I checked, yes it was Wario.

 

[PKNintendo]

Okay, we'll do him next.

 

[Earthbound Zero]

I'm surprised almost no one is really saying much about Luigi, considering PolMex just sort of ran in here and told us Luigi ***** Ness, and no other Luigi main (except for hippiedude) really said anything about the match up.

I want to know the secret everyone's hiding about this matchup. ):

 

[CELTiiC]

I'm surprised almost no one is really saying much about Luigi, considering PolMex just sort of ran in here and told us Luigi ***** Ness, and no other Luigi main (except for hippiedude) really said anything about the match up.

I want to know the secret everyone's hiding about this matchup. ):

So do I, Luigi really doesn't have a high advantage over Ness in my opinion.

 

[AfroThunderRule]

Wait, I don't see how Ness has an advantage over diddy....

 

[thesage]

Major disadvantage: 30-70


Jigglypuff

Why is she listed twice? I thought we all agreed Ness had a slight advantage?

I think the matchup with Luigi is even but IDK since the only Luigi in my area is leagues better than me.

 

[Earthbound Zero]

Jigglypuff

No that's the name of the image, see the guy in that green hat? That's Jigglypuff.

Spoiler

You should fix that PKNintendo. ^^;

 

[PKNintendo]

Uhh, my bad.

 

[Delta_BP26]

I say even. Luigi's approaches are fine, if he knows what he's doing. Well spaced B-Airs are trouble for almost anyone. Ending lag for the Cyclone is remedied by mashing B at the end, which will make it rise; no shieldgrabs. Luigi cam gimp easily, it's not that hard to land a shoryuken (and even then Luigi is a master of killing) and Luigi's combos are ridiculous. However, Ness gimps him easy, and... I can't explain it. Ness just does naturally well against Luigi. I mean, I play a good Ness quite often.

 

[jbandrew]

Ness vs Luigi is even.

Let's take a looksee why:

~Luigi and Ness are both aerial fighters that depend on their air game to be efficient. Their aerials both have good priority and this matchup will be in the air most of the time where they both excel.

~A Luigi can **** Ness' recovery; Bair WOP, U air, Dair... pretty much ANYTHING that you land on Ness when he's recovering a good Luigi can follow up with something else before Ness gets back on stage, if he makes it back at all.

~A Ness can **** Luigi's recovery; D-air, F-air, B-air... same here with ness >_> Luigi is easy to gimp when in his rocket recovery, and makes the Cazcombo (Airborne PK Fire to D-air) a very viable option to get a very early kill when edgeguarding Luigi or just edgeguarding in general.

~They can both kill each other at extremely early percents;
Luigi: Up B, misfire(unlikely), Dair hip spike(HARD TO LAND).
Ness: PKT2(somewhat hard to land), Dair.


This matchup is EVEN. kthnxbai

 

[Ref]

Yep... I too believe this is pretty even...

 

[Earthbound Zero]

~A Luigi can **** Ness' recovery; Bair WOP, U air, Dair... pretty much ANYTHING that you land on Ness when he's recovering a good Luigi can follow up with something else before Ness gets back on stage, if he makes it back at all.

Even though I also believe it's pretty close to even too, Luigi doesn't have very good air or falling speed. While Luigi can easily gimp Ness if he is nearby, he needs to be pretty darn close to Ness to get to screw his recovery in time. (Like, off the stage or near the ledge Ness is recovering by.)

Remember, if you don't make it to Ness in time, and you're in his recovery path, you'll probably be stage spiked by Ness' PK Thunder 2. Either stagespiked, or at least hit really hard. Make sure your in range before you attempt to gimp, that's all I have to say.

 

[jbandrew]

Even though I also believe it's pretty close to even too, Luigi doesn't have very good air or falling speed. While Luigi can easily gimp Ness if he is nearby, he needs to be pretty darn close to Ness to get to screw his recovery in time. (Like, off the stage or near the ledge Ness is recovering by.)

Remember, if you don't make it to Ness in time, and you're in his recovery path, you'll probably be stage spiked by Ness' PK Thunder 2. Either stagespiked, or at least hit really hard. Make sure your in range before you attempt to gimp, that's all I have to say.

This is very true! Supposing that both the Luigi and Ness players know their stuff and obviously a good Luigi would not attempt to edgeguard a ness if not in range

Btw just a tip for Luigi player's and something that Ness players should look out for is that Luigi's fireball can be used as an extention to most aerials like B-air. So if B air isn't in range when edgeguarding then a good Luigi might just throw out a fireball and take advantage of Ness' recovery time to get back on the edge and proceed with edgeguarding... That's a little something you Ness' should watch out for if u ever encounter a good Luigi

 

[LuigiKing]

Well I don't know that much about the matchup... but I played against Cazcom's Ness at my last tourney so I have a little from just that. I'm not going to post stupid theory or anything, just my experiences playing against a good Ness palyer.

Luigi has a really easy time with Ness in the air if the Ness is not using Fair enough. If Luigi is anywhere but directly in front of Ness he will win almost all of the time, there isn't much more to it than that. On the ground I felt like I still had the advantage as far as speed goes, but had a little trouble approaching when Ness wasn't jumping around like a heathen. I will say your best tool against a good Luigi is the dair spike. Luigi has absurdly predictable recovery, which makes for easy spikes. Wait for the tornado or the ending green missile lag and jump right in there. I must have lost every stock to a spike.

In conclusion, I think Luigi has a slight advantage on this one. Probably 60:40 if the Ness is knowledgeable with the matchup, but if the Ness has little experience against a Luigi you're in for trouble.

 

[Ref]

Cazcom still plays? No Ness player has heard from him for so long...

Anyway I don't think it's 60-40... I think it's even....

Ness has greater range and I think aerial mobility.... Both can gimp each other pretty well.... Luigi does have the ability to combo Ness decently well and does make some stand still attacks dangerous...

 

[Earthbound Zero]

Luigi has the 2nd worst air speed in the game, while Ness' aerial mobility is the average since it's tied with Mario's. And thanks for reminding me of Luigi's fireballs Andrew.

Also @LuigiKing

If Ness sees or predicts Luigi coming from behind, he can Bair or Nair. Ness' Nair has a ton of priority because of it's lasting hitbox, decent range, and decent knockback and Bair's sourspot has a surprisingly large hitbox.

Even though Ness has much more range in this matchup however, like mentioned a large amount of times in this thread xD, If Luigi gets in that range, he can punish Ness pretty bad with his comboes.

This is an even matchup because Ness can be comboed and punished, but Luigi is going to have a bad time approaching, And both of them can gimp each other fairly easy. :x

 

[SwastikaPyle]

Wigi's air game is much, much better then Ness's.

He also has a lot more kill moves and does more damage. However, there was one moment in which my Ness actually managed to grab Luigi out of a missfire. Never really figured that one out, it was quite funny watching Luigi explode into a torpedo then just get snatched out of the air like a freaking baseball.

 

[_clinton]

Wigi's air game is much, much better then Ness's.

He also has a lot more kill moves and does more damage. However, there was one moment in which my Ness actually managed to grab Luigi out of a missfire. Never really figured that one out, it was quite funny watching Luigi explode into a torpedo then just get snatched out of the air like a freaking baseball.

How is Weegee's air game better then Ness' if you don't mind my asking?

How does he have "a lot" more kill moves? For numbers...8 vs. 7 isn't a lot ^_^

And like Weegee Ness does have issues hitting with them sometimes

How does he do more damage? Ness like Weegee has a lot of things that follow up well with each other as well...

BTW I say we do Yoshi next because I want to talk with Mmac...

 

[Gaussis]

I suppose we can do Yoshi next. But then we do Wario. I have some suspicions to confirm with the fat man.

 

[_clinton]

I suppose we can do Yoshi next. But then we do Wario. I have some suspicions to confirm with the fat man.

Wario isn't fat...he is festively plump!

 

[SwastikaPyle]

How is Weegee's air game better then Ness' if you don't mind my asking?

How does he have "a lot" more kill moves? For numbers...8 vs. 7 isn't a lot ^_^

Wigi's aerials all have more priority, damage, and they are all lagless. Ness's fair is the only move that is comparatively better than Wigi's.

Ness, from my experience, has only two reliable kill moves. His bair and bthrow (and his uair and spike on the occasions you can actually hit with them). His bat would be there if it had enough speed and range to actually be useful half the time.

Wigi has his reliable forward smash, upsmash, downsmash, Shoryuken, his nair, his bthrow kills as well (not quite as well as Ness's though). All of his kill moves are faster and stronger then Ness's.

 

[Alphatron]

Wegee's fsmash a reliable kill move? No one, not even Jiggs has any reason to get so close to wegee and let that attack connect. Ground attacks with bad range can't be called reliable kill moves. Same goes for UpB. Luigi can't always rely on UpB or he'll get punished hard. Much like how Ness would get punished for relying on PK Flash to actually kill.

I'll give you the others though. As for air game, I'm not too sure. With different results, Luigi can also use SH dair on stage for one.

 

[SwastikaPyle]

Wegee's fsmash a reliable kill move? No one, not even Jiggs has any reason to get so close to wegee and let that attack connect. Ground attacks with bad range can't be called reliable kill moves. Same goes for UpB.

Common words from someone who has never fought a good Wigi.

 

[_clinton]

Wigi's aerials all have more priority, damage, and they are all lagless. Ness's fair is the only move that is comparatively better than Wigi's.

Excuse me...but they aren't all lagless (looks at Dair)

Ness' Nair can be used 2x in a short hop w/o any issue...his Bair happens to have the fastest cool down time of his airs as well...

Ness has plenty of 2x chains he can use for his air moves in order to make them hit as well...

Plus I should point out that Ness' Fair is a multipurpose tool that pretty much makes it do more then what it should

Ness, from my experience, has only two reliable kill moves. His bair and bthrow (and his uair and spike on the occasions you can actually hit with them). His bat would be there if it had enough speed and range to actually be useful half the time.

His Uair is fine as a kill move...and he has set ups for it as well...and he has nice set up to his spike...ever heard of Pillar Spike?

PK Jump if used right can set up for the bat on plenty of the cast...hell a trip from his down tilt can set up for some of his kill moves as well...

Wigi has his reliable forward smash, upsmash, downsmash, Shoryuken, his nair, his bthrow kills as well (not quite as well as Ness's though). All of his kill moves are faster and stronger then Ness's.

You seem to avoid the fact that plenty of those have range issues as well (The smashes and Shoryuken, Nair, and the Bthrow has somewhat of a wild card issue on FD...the kill range for it is 82% like Ness' to 192% from looking at the worse and the best situations for killing with it when they don't DI)
His Usmash happens to be a sweet spot type kill like Ness' bat...

Common words from someone who has never fought a good Wigi.

I like how you think Weegee can deal with the faults of his kill moves yet Ness cannot...

 

[Earthbound Zero]

Wigi's aerials all have more priority, damage, and they are all lagless. Ness's fair is the only move that is comparatively better than Wigi's.

Ness, from my experience, has only two reliable kill moves. His bair and bthrow (and his uair and spike on the occasions you can actually hit with them). His bat would be there if it had enough speed and range to actually be useful half the time.

Wigi has his reliable forward smash, upsmash, downsmash, Shoryuken, his nair, his bthrow kills as well (not quite as well as Ness's though). All of his kill moves are faster and stronger then Ness's.

Ness has many more reliable kill moves than that, you probably haven't fought many good Ness' yourself.

Uair comes out quite quickly and has good range, and a experienced Ness will know to time Dair correctly. When you time Dair right, it is probably one of Ness' best Aerials, it has enormous range and is hard to meteor cancel, even at low percents. I has a ton of hitstun and can combo with many of Ness' moves. PKT2 is quite reliable, if you can manage to it it. Shoryuken has a lot of priority, but can't always be used as a kill move, as long as your opponent is very careful. It has around the same priority as Ness' PKT2.

I have no idea what you mean by Luigi's aerials having more priority than Ness'. They both have around the same priority in the air. The big difference is that Luigi has low range, but is fast, and Ness has great range but is slightly slower than Luigi. Luigi has horrible mobility, but very high priority attacks. Ness has decent mobility, and has high priority attacks too.

Ness' recovery is bad, but Luigi's isn't that great either. Both can gimp each other easy, Luigi has less mobility so it's harder for him to gimp Ness than other characters. Fireballs are a good idea however, if your farther away from a recovering Ness.

Ness' bat has good priority, it out ranges most of Luigi's attacks, and isn't that slow. Ness' Fsmash is faster than Metaknights. (Metaknight just doesn't have a oood Fsmash though. .-.) Ness' bat is a reflector too, just not as good as Lucas'. You just can't spam the bat like in Melee.

Ness' killing moves have nearly the same power as Luigi's. You can counterpick a stage with a high ceiling, since Luigi usually has vertical kills. Luigi can do the same thing.

Also Ness' Aerials are near lagless too. (BTW, Luigi's Dair isn't lagless.) What gave you the idea they weren't? Dair? Dair only has a small amount of starting lag, the spike, hitstun, and power make up for it.

 

[_clinton]

Ness' recovery is bad, but Luigi's isn't that great either. Both can gimp each other easy, Luigi has less mobility so it's harder for him to gimp Ness than other characters. Fireballs are a good idea however, if your farther away from a recovering Ness.

People always undermind Ness' recovery IMO...

Dair? Dair only has a small amount of starting lag, the spike, hitstun, and power make up for it.

You forgot a few things...like how about that hit box on Dair being a big fat liar for how much range it has...

Dair being a good spacing tool like Fair is also a nice thing...Still fun to note that Ness' Dair comes out faster then Ganondorf's...but it even has a better "Thunder Stomp" to it as well...bloody hell Ness' stomp is easier to time then Ganondorf's...

 

[Earthbound Zero]

People always undermind Ness' recovery IMO...



You forgot a few things...like how about that hit box on Dair being a big fat liar for how much range it has...

Dair being a good spacing tool like Fair is also a nice thing...Still fun to note that Ness' Dair comes out faster then Ganondorf's...but it even has a better "Thunder Stomp" to it as well...bloody hell Ness' stomp is easier to time then Ganondorf's...

I mentioned Dair's enormous hitbox somewhere in there I'm sure. ^^

And I agree, I like Ness' Dair more than Ganon's. It's much easier to use imo.

Ness' recovery is long range, so if the opponent has no way for interrupting it, it's always easy to return. Ness' recovery is a mindgame, you never know how he's going to recover. (wallhugging, bouncing, standard PKT2, second jump only, Ness' recovery is really versatile, even though is only options are his 2nd jump and Up-B.) I have friend's who usually don't bother with gimping me, because they either miss and screw up their recovery, or get stagespiked by PKT2. Just a few frames off and you're punished...

 

[Gaussis]

You forgot a few things...like how about that hit box on Dair being a big fat liar for how much range it has...

This is teh funny

IDK about the numbers. What do you guys think about the ratio here? I mean, Luigi up close is a menace. However, he is slow in the air and somewhat slow on the ground. Ness is slower frame-wise than Luigi, but is faster mobility-wise and has greater range than he does on the ground and air.

 

[Earthbound Zero]

Luigi is the 2nd worst aerial mobility, the 4th worst ground mobility tied with Wario, Peach, Snake, and Link (he has cyclone though. :x), He's much floatier than Ness, and I have no idea about fastfalling speeds. (Are falling and fast falling nearly the same...? Except that fastfalling makes the character fall slightly faster?) Ness is almost as fast as Luigi attack frame-wise, but Luigi will juggle Ness to pretty badly if Ness has bad spacing and DI... But Ness can juggle Luigi well too, as long as he doesn't get too close.

Ness will have a slightly easier time in this match if you ask me, because he'll have the easier time approaching, but I'll be killed for putting it in Ness' advantage at all...

Conclusion: 50:50.