PK Thunder Tail Glitch

[Shaky]

Normally, the tail of PK Thunder deals about 1-2% everytime it touches the opponent. However, while looking back at some replays, I found an interesting glitch concerning PK Thunder. In specific circumstances (which I have not yet discovered) the tail ok PK thunder can deal decent damage.

Video is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTLj0BRNH_g (Credit to Xoxokev for uploading)

I am currently trying to replicate it and find a way to exploit it, I would appreciate the help of any of the Ness players here.

 

[Shuckle]

When you reflect something, it does more damage.
SO I'm thinking the whole PKT itself is broken into part, but still considered a whole.
Hmm, how to explain.
It was reflected on one part, but since it's still a whole, it just basically added more damage done by the PKT.
I think I'm right, haha.




Or is it just a glitch ):

 

[xoxokev]

When you reflect something, it does more damage.
SO I'm thinking the whole PKT itself is broken into part, but still considered a whole.
Hmm, how to explain.
It was reflected on one part, but since it's still a whole, it just basically added more damage done by the PKT.
I think I'm right, haha.




Or is it just a glitch ):

that doesnt make sense, if you reflect the tail of pkt, only the tail should be reflected... this thing is really confusing

 

[Shuckle]

It's hard to explain what I wanted to say...

It's probably just a glitch, but the odds of getting an opportunity like that are slim to none. Unless there's more depth and probability to it, it's basically useless.

Nonetheless, it's still a neat find.

 

[Levitas]

maybe all the small hitboxes on the tail hit at once? for some reason? lol

That's pretty intense.

 

[Uffe]

I thought nothing of it until I saw an instant 38%.

 

[PK-ow!]

I'm not sure if reflection is involved at all.

What I saw was Mario run into a PK Thunder tail, then a moment later, take a 38% damage hit. There are at least two frames where he's inside the tail, but not taking damage. However I don't know if that's normal.

What does implicate the cape is that Mario seems to take damage on the frame the reflection properties of Cape end.

Now, to confirm reflection is involved, I'd like to know (a) what the damage percent of PK Thunder is, as precisely as possible, and (b) what the multiplication factor of Cape's reflection is.

If 38% is the floored value of the product of PKT's damage with some power of Cape's multiplication factor, then it's highly likely repeated reflection was involved.


Two more things:
(1)
As for the apparent strangeness of it being reflected at all... it's not that odd. Look at what you can do with Snake's Usmash. Or Pika's Thunder.
(IMO PKT shouldn't be reflectable in forthcoming smash games, but that's only opinion.)

(2)
This can be useful. With the consistency that we can PKT shield stab, we can potentially attack a Spacy's reflector, and stab them for 38%.

.... on that note, try replicating this with Wolf. Take advantage of the invincibility frames on his reflector to get the PKT over his hurtbox, then have him hold the reflector for just a couple of frames.

 

[xoxokev]

Here's my theory...

The tail of PKT does about 1% each time it hits. I think that Mario DID reflect the tail, but since there was nothing for it to hit, the reflected part of the tail disappeared. I believe that once that part of the tail was reflected, new "tail parts" were created. It may very well be that within the time it takes Mario to complete his cape animation, A LOT of new "tail parts" were created due to the duration of the cape animation, and 38 of them happened to hit Mario.

I did some research and found some very vague frame data on Mario's cape, in case anyone is interested
Link: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5837699#post5837699

In my opinion, I DO NOT think this is exploitable... the conditions are just too situational to make this applicable in many matches

 

[thesage]

Does he take 38 damage in one hit?

 

[AvariceX]

My theory: Because of the number of tiny hitboxes on the tail (I don't even know if this is true) and the duration of the cape, it's possible that the cape reflected the tail of the thunder several times (once for each hitbox it contacted) thereby rapidly increasing the PKT's power.

My theory probably has holes all over...the glitch is cool though.

 

[Kiyuzoh]

It could've happened because of Mario's cape, simply because it's by far the weirdest reflector in the game. It does some crazy stuff, and this is no exception. I still can't really decide on which of your guy's theories I think are right yet . . . . .

 

[CarVac]

It looks like the cape never even hit PKT. He slid into the tail RIGHT as it faded away, though, and was dealt 36% damage. Maybe that is actually a different hitbox, that only happens if you hit just the very end of the tail.

Maybe it was because it hit his head. HEADSHOT (yes this is not very likely at all)

 

[FireKirby7]

Wow that's wierd... O_o I think I'm gonna go with the theory of reflecting all the tiny hitboxes of the tail and it becomes more powerful.

Maybe you can exploit this in 2v2s, you use PKT, your Mario partner capes the tail, now you can control it with 32% 'til it goes away. lol. Mario only got zapped once in the video, imagine if he got hit by the whole tail, god.

 

[CarVac]

I do not think it was reflected, though. As Bartolon says, he did it without being against a Mario.

 

[kennypu]

I do not think it was reflected, though. As Bartolon says, he did it without being against a Mario.

he didn't specifically say who he was fighting against, so it could've been any of the characters who have reflector abilities.
as far as an explanation goes, I think what shuckle said is close, but ofcourse I have no idea. looks like mario reflected the tail of the pkt, thus strengthening the tail, and since the tail has multiple hit boxes, each of those hit boxes were amplified causing that too happen. The only thing is that if what I said is true, he should've taken damage like 2-5% at a time, instead of getting 38% at once. interesting :3 oh well tourney today wish me luck xD

 

[Uffe]

Watching that video for the first time and about a few more times, PK Thunder doesn't look like it was reflected by Mario's Cape. But here are two of my theories.

1. The back of the tail lands more hits than anywhere else on PKT.

Or!

2. The tail was reflected giving it more power.

Because if you think about it, if the PKT was reflected, Shaky would have lost control of it. In that video, it looks as if it's still being controlled by Shaky. Than again, reflecting projectile gives that projectile more power. For example. If Ness were to f-smash PKFl, it'd go from 39% to 55%. This is a really cool find, but very situational. And good luck at the tournament, Kennypu!

 

[ColinJF]

I don't know what mechanic is at work here, but it's pretty clear that pk thunder is even more broken than previously thought. A fast-moving controllable projectile, most of which can't be attacked, that does 38% on hit. Talk about overpowered.

Move over, Meta Knight.

 

[xoxokev]

The only flaw in the "reflected = more power" theory is that if it were in fact reflected... it shouldn't have done any damage to Mario...

 

[FireKirby7]

The only flaw in the "reflected = more power" theory is that if it were in fact reflected... it shouldn't have done any damage to Mario...

I guess the reflected hitboxes of the tail just go away and the power goes on to the other PKT tail hitboxes?

This is too much, lol.

 

[Earthbound360]

Wasn't there a property of reflected thunder that if the tail is reflected, it becomes the opponents attack for a while, but then becomes Ness' again?

I swear I've heard something like that somewhere before.

 

[PK-ow!]

The only flaw in the "reflected = more power" theory is that if it were in fact reflected... it shouldn't have done any damage to Mario...

PK Thunder has acted strangely with reflectors before. We have no reason to believe they could have fixed every glitch.

I mean, as a rule, how should PKT behave if reflected at the tail? I don't know. Sakurai's team would have made some kind of decision... and then implemented the attack itself to be compatible with that.

But they were also constrained to have it behave under normal conditions, i.e. follow a path that you describe with the control stick, and have the tail trace out where the head goes exactly.


... or listen to EB360's much shorter claim. Watevs.

 

[Shaky]

Looking at the actual replay again, it is pretty evident that I still controlled PK Thunder after he "caped" it since I did a circle around him right after the 38% was done (This part is not entirely shown on the video).

 

[CarVac]

It would be funny if you reflected it and gained control of it (and could pkt2).

Anyway, someone needs to test this out, with a character running into the tail at different points with and without attempting to reflect it.

 

[Shaky]

It would be funny if you reflected it and gained control of it (and could pkt2).

Anyway, someone needs to test this out, with a character running into the tail at different points with and without attempting to reflect it.

I am working on that today.

 

[xoxokev]

PK Thunder has acted strangely with reflectors before. We have no reason to believe they could have fixed every glitch.

I mean, as a rule, how should PKT behave if reflected at the tail? I don't know. Sakurai's team would have made some kind of decision... and then implemented the attack itself to be compatible with that.

But they were also constrained to have it behave under normal conditions, i.e. follow a path that you describe with the control stick, and have the tail trace out where the head goes exactly.


... or listen to EB360's much shorter claim. Watevs.

...It is known that when the tail of PKT is reflected, that part of the tail belongs to the character who reflected it for a short period of time; however the tail will always follow the lead of whoever is in control of the head. I still think my theory is the most believable.

 

[Levitas]

I'll see if I can replicate this in part today and find a more solid explanation. I'm really betting that the tail "bits" just hit mario all at once after having been reflected seperately. the reflection probably didn't play into the power at all. I'll test this in frame by frame and try to verify this by making the glitch do different amounts of damage.

 

[Gaussis]

There is a way to test the reflector adding power theory. Using Fox falling from the air, have the tail hit the reflector and then tailwhip Fox. I'm willing to bet it has something to do with how PKT reacts to reflectors and not how reflectors react with projectiles (i.e. a PKT unique situation).

EDIT: I think I did a poor job wording what I meant

 

[PK-ow!]

...It is known that when the tail of PKT is reflected, that part of the tail belongs to the character who reflected it for a short period of time; however the tail will always follow the lead of whoever is in control of the head. I still think my theory is the most believable.

AHH! I know how this could work.

The tail consists of segments. These segments are created in the position of the head as it moves along. At the same time, the segment on the end of the tail disappears.

Reflecting the tail reflects each segment that currently exists. However, the new segments will belong to Ness.

Or... this doesn't quite work, since Mario took damage from the part that he was standing in before. But perhaps something like this, say, where the Head propagates Ness' "ownership" of the tail to the back end periodically, or something.


And, for Gaussis' comment: I already said one thing we can do to check the reflector multiplication theory. We do some math. I just don't know how to find Cape data; meanwhile, one of us should know where our own PKT damage data is. >_>

 

[PikaPika898]

Thats a nice "glitch " i thought it would of done less damage than that! lol

 

[PikaPika898]

i also forgot..was it the cape that made the pk thunder do that or was it on its own?

 

[CarVac]

The tail consists of segments. These segments are created in the position of the head as it moves along. At the same time, the segment on the end of the tail disappears.

Maybe the new hitbox segments are simply placed where the reflection occured. Then, Mario ran into them all.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Good news: It's not Mario specific.

<Shaky> So colin I replicated the glitch
<@Colin> congratulations
<@Colin> under what circumstances?
<Shaky> I hit wario with the end of the tail
<Shaky> when he was sliding his usmash
<@Colin> did you save the replay?
<@Colin> that proves it isn't a reflection thing, but I want these replays for analysis
<@Colin> you did save it, right?
<Shaky> errrm
<@Colin> ...

Bad news: Shaky didn't save the replay.
Carry on your guesses!

 

[Shaky]

It was on training mode ;_;

 

[CarVac]

Maybe the very tip of the tail is just awesome like that.
Or you have to be in an attack?

Try putting the PKT parallel to the stage and running Sonic into it from behind to see what happens.

 

[Levitas]

Shaky, how much damage did it do?

 

[Shaky]

Shaky, how much damage did it do?

32%, I didn't want to say anything until I had footage to prove it.

EDIT: Bartolon should tell us how under what circumnstances he performed the glitch.

 

[Uffe]

It's obviously a PKT2 **** set up. Get your opponent at whatever high percent and then go in for the kill.

 

[Gaussis]

It's a setup for an instant PKTΩ :O

Wait a minute...I think it has something to do with momentum-based moves. Notice how Mario cape glides into the tail. Also, Shaky mentioned a DAC Usmash (the sliding usmash) with Wario. It can probably become practical.

 

[PKSkyler]

It's a setup for an instant PKTΩ :O

Wait a minute...I think it has something to do with momentum-based moves. Notice how Mario cape glides into the tail. Also, Shaky mentioned a DAC Usmash (the sliding usmash) with Wario. It can probably become practical.

hmmm, this coudl be close. Mario moves into the tail as its looping around him. Perhaps this special type of damage happens when an opponent moves into the edge of tail while its looping around them, the opposite way they are facing? It probably only works with momentum based moves, like sliding upsmashes, wolf's fsmash and other "moving"fsmashes, or moves like charizards's side b, all meta knights b moves (cept cape, of course)...etc.

If this is right, then its definantly exploitable...which is good. We'll have an AT that takes more set up but is just as good as something like a chain grab. I should do some testing.

 

[Levitas]

The fact that the tail did a different amount of damage supports the theory that we're just hitting them with multiple segments on the same frame.