Pikmin line filtering. Nietono does it, should we?

[Denti]

Should Olimar's start throwing away red pikmin like Nietono?

I've been messing with this and I'm not sure what kind of results I should be seeing.

Me and Dabuz talked it out at APEX for like 30 min. We think that realistically it is possible to ditch one pikmin type and still battle without hurting your overall game. And when we thought about it, if we HAD TO toss one pikmin type, it would be the reds.

The logic behind this is

Purples - Obvious

Blues - Kill throw, long grab range. 14% health, so this type survives well.

whites - They filter themselves with 4% health. When they latch your opponent should kill it when they hit it off. Extended grab range.

yellows - extended F smash range and up air range.

red - strongest aerials and second strongest smashes.

The reason why reds are the best to kill off is because all the other pikmin help Olimar's playstyle with unique spacing. Even though red pikmin can kill, they won't help you win the overall battle as well as the other pikmin.



But enough jibber jabber, lets get some serious mathematical thought on this.

At what point should you not toss more pikmin off stage? Should we always have a certain number of pikmin we should aim to have at all times no matter what? When filtering are we considering the MU, the stage, the percent, the opponent? Nietono doesn't seem to consider anything, he just ditches the reds when it's convenient.

I've been filtering my line out of reds AND yellows when my opponent is nearing death percent. Should I be doing that? Should I only filter yellows at that point because yellows are the weakest pikmin (besides whites obviously). Should I aim to have only purples? Is all purples even a good idea? Some MUs you have to space with F smash and grab, purples can't do that. How many types should we be filtering at one time?

One time while fighting Trela in tournament on FD and he was at 155%. I had two purples in my 6 pikmin line up. I ditched every other pikmin but the two purples. Was that even a good idea? (if you want to know how this ended up he killed one purple then started going in. I still won the game though.) But considering that, would 3 purples have been okay?

What are you thoughts on this?


Match ups to consider for this topic. (please lets not cover more than this, for now)


:diddybrawl:

 

[Sky Pirate]

I've been tossing Reds for most match-ups ever since Hilt pointed out that Blues are as good as or better than Reds in just about everything.
The main question I'd have to ask regarding Pikmin filtering would be "How significant is the difference in kill power between Yellows, Reds, and Blues?" If the gap can be closed with one move, it would definitely make said color worth using over Reds during the killing phase (though I'm still pretty sure that Yellows are better for killing anyway because they're safer in general and Blues can kill/easily set up a kill with throws).

There was a chart somewhere (I think Hilt made it), but I can't find it at the moment...

I don't think you should have ditched the non-Purples if he was at 155% unless you were showing off.
Consider that Purple smashes have less range AND stay out fewer frames than other pikmin. You'd have a tougher time landing a hit with Purples and you could have killed with a lot of other moves from other Pikmin by that point.

 

[Denti]

I've been tossing Reds for most match-ups ever since Hilt pointed out that Blues are as good as or better than Reds in just about everything.
The main question I'd have to ask regarding Pikmin filtering would be "How significant is the difference in kill power between Yellows, Reds, and Blues?" If the gap can be closed with one move, it would definitely make said color worth using over Reds during the killing phase (though I'm still pretty sure that Yellows are better for killing anyway because they're safer in general and Blues can kill/easily set up a kill with throws).

There was a chart somewhere (I think Hilt made it), but I can't find it at the moment...

I don't think you should have ditched the non-Purples if he was at 155% unless you were showing off.
Consider that Purple smashes have less range AND stay out fewer frames than other pikmin. You'd have a tougher time landing a hit with Purples and you could have killed with a lot of other moves from other Pikmin by that point.

The kill power for smashes go like this

Purple - Tier 1

Red - Tier 2

Blue - tier 3
Yellow - tier 3

white - ...

The blues and yellows are close in kill power but blues are slightly stronger.


And I think what I did against Trela wasn't wise. I should have done that with at least 3 purples. I know what you're saying though, but purples are deadly. He would have died from a down smash, up smash, grab (up throw), Fair, or really whatever. Also he HAD to be ready for a purple toss at any moment, which helped pressure him. It was the ultimate kill power set up. Also, if I remember right I didn't have any blues at the moment.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Good read, Denti. Ditching reds in most matchups is something I've been trying to spread to the other Olimars for awhile, and Nietono I think has helped me prove my point.

Blues are much closer to Reds than they are to yellows when it comes to the difference in killing. Yellows are really weak for killing, in all honesty. If a smash is going to kill someone with a red, it's probably going to with a blue as well. If if you are able to throw away a red for another color (especially for a blue or purple late in the enemy's stock), the trade off is definitely beneficial. Reds are only really good late in the enemy's stock, while blues are not only good at all stages of the game, but better than reds late in the enemy's stock! Reason being there are more options to kill with, even though some of the options aren't as good as the red equivalent.

I will generally try to focus more on yellows early in the stock, and trade them out when it gets later. When the enemy is at high percents and I'm planning to kill soon, focusing on blues and purples primarily, with a little bit of red and maybe yellows (for mixing it up) works best, in my opinion. Whites aren't both mentioning since, as you brought up, they're only good for throwing and dying as a result.

So in short, yes, I agree with you, Denti. Focusing on what colors are best for the matchup or best for what percents your opponent is at (or even yourself, in some situations) is something that Olimars don't pay attention to as much as they should.

 

[Asa]

i do notice that often times you'll have a bunch of reds in your lineup, denti, and i think that can hurt you some

and ya what papa hilt said ^

 

[Denti]

Good stuff hilt. I didn't know blues were closer to reds in smash kill power then yellows. Good to know.

I always try to consider the player when I filter. Some players are tricky to get with a grab and some are tricky to hit with a out of shield up smash.

Something else I do is when my opponent is at death percent I won't throw reds out. Depending on the MU olimar can fair people, only as a one time surprise though. So I try not to fair somebody at all until they are ready to die, then i sneak a red fair in and it works for one kill effectively in tournament.

 

[Sky Pirate]

The kill power for smashes go like this

Purple - Tier 1

Red - Tier 2

Blue - tier 3
Yellow - tier 3

white - ...

Well yeah, but I'm talking about a chart with specific numbers. ^^;

And about Yellows being bad for killing, I know that they're weak. I'm just saying that they might be better for gimping/setting up a gimp/killing after certain percentages because of the larger hitboxes and ease with which you hit, which might make them better overall for killing. It takes longer, but it's safer.

 

[Dnyce]

Nietono throws away red pikmin because they mess up the chain grab on fox...


//thread

 

[Sync.]

Honestly, I don't think this is too important. Filtering Pikmin is good depending on the condition of your foe's stock but shouldn't be looked into unless you have a blantant chance to do so.

I just play by the Pikmin and use what's given to me. If I can, I'll toss whatever I don't need.

 

[Denti]

Honestly, I don't think this is too important. Filtering Pikmin is good depending on the condition of your foe's stock but shouldn't be looked into unless you have a blantant chance to do so.

I just play by the Pikmin and use what's given to me. If I can, I'll toss whatever I don't need.

I have to disagree with it being pointless in all situations, especially if Nietono does it (the best olimar). I was playing the ditto on wifi against an olimar with a good record and I did a nasty trick on FD. I had 4 yellows 1 blue and 1 purple, so 6 pikmin. I ditched all of them except the yellows. Needless to say I destroyed his options and 3 stocked him just by yellow F smash. The overwhelming power it gave me literally ruined all his options. I can't say it's useless in all situations. There has to be some situations worth filtering for, and that's what we should figure out here.


I've been thinking you guys and I think it's safe to say if we filter we shouldn't have any less than 4 pikmin at one time for safety reasons. What do ya'll think about that? With few exceptions, one being on PS1 transformations where you filtering massively after being separated. 4 pikmin can be pretty safe, and our tether is still long enough.

 

[Sky Pirate]

Is there any reason for four over say... three or five? Why that specific number?
Just curious, not saying it's wrong or anything. It sounds like a good number to stick with.

And I agree with Denti. Filtering and pikmin management is important.

 

[Denti]

Well to only be filtering 1 at a time might not have quick results. And 3 imo is too small of a tether. Maybe 5 would be okay though.

 

[SethT]

Its something that I've been trying a lot of recently but I feel that filtering can be done better ways then just Pikmin throw off edge. MK and Iceclimbers are really the only characters I filter with Pikmin throw > sacrifice to the great god killzone.

Personally, I love reds. I use my F-smash constantly as a mix up (more often then most Olimars do). So if I have 2 or 3 Reds in my line, rather then sitting back using Pikmin toss I'll just get close and pressure with f-smash and f-airs which allows me to (normally) force a grab or get them off stage to which I can edgeguard and filter at the same time. I just pressure them with F-smash while they're on the ledge which filters the pikmin and causes havoc for some characters ( <3 yellows right here).

Works against most of the cast and normally allows you to punish them when they get back on stage.

 

[Dnyce]

I have to disagree with it being pointless in all situations, especially if Nietono does it (the best olimar).

Nietono throws away red pikmin because they mess up the chain grab on fox...

 

[Turazrok]

pikachu autofilters for me np np

 

[Denti]

pikachu autofilters for me np np

^^^ I think this is an important statement. The Pikachu MU literally will auto filter your pikmin if he uses eletrical attacks to hit them off. The yellows will live and the others will die, natural selection. And as we know yellows are AMAZING in that MU.


Also what do you guys think about this one. Yesterday on wifi when my opponent got near kill percent I just filtered my line to the blues and purples and I didn't re pluck (I had a total of 4 pikmin at the time). So in essence I was able to get consecutive kill power pikmin. What do you guys think of this? How many pikmin isn't enough to leave? I want to say 4 is ideal, but 3 and 5 work too.

 

[EthereaL]

The answer to the thread is, in short, yes.

Players who say "only do it if you have time"...Olimar can create such a wall that you /will/ have time to filter.

Regarding an "optimal pikmin setup/number"... That changes depending on match-up, stage, playstyle, position, and percents.

 

[Latch]

Filtering is great, but I think it is more MU dependent than you guys are making out. For example, red pikmin **** against ivysaur, because of type effectiveness. Whites **** on characters with bad de-latching options. Yellows **** against Pikachu and ZSS. Blues **** against characters with enough range to outrange other colors' grabs. Purples **** against lightweights because they are fat and therefore skinny opponents have to worry about being politically correct when dealing with them.

Against most chars though, red = kill it!

 

[Teege]

I really thought there was something more to this also. I've been trying to work it into my game play a little bit also. Another thing that I've noticed that he does is filter out the whites whenever his opponent is at kill percent. I'm not sure if that's something a lot of people already do, but it just didn't occur to me haha.

This video was pretty helpful for me to kind of analyze and see how he goes about it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yc_bLIyoiuY

I just want to get my Pikmin throw accuracy up to par so I can pull of some of the crazy stuff like in these matches.

 

[Latch]

Since we are trying to minimize reds, I realized that terrain-based plucking %s might actually be useful now! Here's the post: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=11619856&postcount=1

The normal red pluck percentage is 25.6%.

The terrains that increase red percentage (bad) which appear on legal stages are
Cloth (40.8% red): Castle Siege (part 2's awnings), Delphino Plaza (awnings/umbrellas), Rainbow Cruise (carpets).
Sand (35.7%): Delphino Plaza (islands). However, this is moot, since you can't pluck anywhere but the sand on those Islands.
Brick (27.8%): Castle Siege (part 2 except for the awnings).

And the terrains that decrease red percentage (good) which appear on legal stages are:
Water (0%): Delphino Plaza (canals), Pokemon Stadium (water transformation: the water, grass transformation: the stream).
Alien Goop (18.5%): Brinstar (left and right platforms).
Ice (18.5%): Pokemon Stadium 2 (ice transformation: everything but the edges).
Light Metal (18.9%): Branstar (top platform), Pokemon Stadium (rock transformation: platforms).
Heavy Metal (18.9%): Frigate Orpheon (the whole thing), Halberd (everything except the wood deck), Lylat Cruise (the whole thing), Pokemon Stadium 2 (electric transformation: main platform).
Grate (22.2%): Delphino Plaza (bottom main platform), Pokemon Stadium 2 (flying transformation).

We should come up with a list of conditions for plucking, like so:
1. Does the stage that you are on currently contain terrains discussed above? If so, continue.
2. Are you in a position where you can choose where you pluck (e.g. just killed opponent)? If so, continue.
3. Don't pluck on stuff that increases red %, do pluck on stuff that decreases red %.

And for filtering:

1. Do reds have a distinct advantage against your opponent (e.g. Ivysaur)? If so, stop.
2. Are you in a position where filtering is safe? If so, continue.
3. Filter!

 

[Dabuz]

I actually am starting to dislike nietono's way of farming. This is purely from a style standpoint, but I prefer my reads to do as much damage as possible, and reds inflict the most damage on average. Generally I only want to get rid of reds if I DESPERATELY need the range+priority from yellows, most notable in the ICs and pikachu MUs.

 

[Sky Pirate]

On that topic, the base damage isn't much different for most attacks. It's generally only a difference of 1-2%, and many attacks do the same amount when sweetspotted.

[collapse=Damage comparisons]
Attacks left off of this did the same damage.

Usmash - 15 (14), 12
Usmash - 15 (13), 11
Numbers in parentheses are for the small hitbubble during the beginning of the attack.

Fsmash - 15, 12, 9
Fsmash - 15, 11, 6
Damage depends on when the attack connects.

Dsmash - 13, 10
Dsmash - 12, 9
Damage depends on when the attack connects.

Uair - 3, 6 (24)
Uair - 3, 4 (22)
Hits 7 times total. First number is for the small hits, second is for the large one at the end.
Number in parentheses is for the total damage.

Dair - 16, 7
Dair - 14, 6
Damage depends on when the attack connects.

Fair - 15
Fair - 13

Bair - 13, 11
Bair - 13, 10
Damage is greater toward the center of the attack.
First number is "sweetspotted", second is toward the ends.

UpB - 7
UpB - 6

Dthrow - 8
Dthrow - 11

Uthrow - 9
Uthrow - 12

Bthrow - 7
Bthrow - 14

Fthrow - 6
Fthrow - 13[/collapse]

The most notable exceptions are Bthrow and Fthrow. Blues do double the damage reds do with those.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Yeah, the damage difference is negligible and not worth the damage from throws sacrificed.

 

[Dabuz]

I've started to do this more, changing color depending on the MU. For example: I keep red when It's a MU that I land a decent amount of fairs in (ROB, DK), some MUs where I don't land many killings grabs in, I'll get rid of blues. (Toonlink and Kirby) Yellows are always good unless I need to kill badly (snake, falco).

Also, I don't even bother with whistling now unless the pikmin are in a completely random order. I always use upsmash / dsmash to cycle, farming under the guise of shorthop side-B to gain stage positioning.