Pikachu Social Thread

[hype machine]

ALSO PIKACHU CAN DO THE MARTH KILLER NOW

but since Marth's sweetspot is easier in pm he might still be able to sweetspot while avoiding it. But if it works like it does in melee then there is no hope for Marth to recover.

whats the marth killer?

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

whats the marth killer?

In melee you get as close to the edge as possible without following off )The best way to get closest to the edge is to roll into it.), and with you back to the edge you light shield and angle your shield down and away. When Marth up Bs it will knock you off and make you grab the ledge making it impossible for marth to sweetspot. It's used to force Marth to recover onstage and to edgehog Marth when he tries to sweetspot

In pm you do the same thing, but instead of light shielding you just use normal shield (since pm doesn't have light shielding).

 

[Choice Scarf]

So is the fact that Marth can still maybe sweetspot because Marth's sweetspot is that good or because Pika's shield is too small? Cause think of what happens when light shielding finally gets added in

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

Yea I'm still skeptical about it because Marth can sweetspot form farther out, which might allow him to avoid it completely.

EDIT: It has been confirmed, Marth killer doesn't work

 

[hype machine]

Hey guys yesterday I did a ? > nair > nair > nair. It was all legit he was in hitstun the whole time and i got a KO off of it. Just wanted to say triple nairs are possible. I did it on my friend who used Lucas at the time (mid percent). But I have no idea how I did it. But it's possible.

 

[Player -0]

It depends on DI.

 

[hype machine]

It depends on DI.

My friend said he tried to DI out of it but it didn't work il go ask him again

He's probobly in a class right now so it might take an hour or 2 to get an answer from him

 

[Player -0]

Which way did he DI

 

[hype machine]

Ok he said he DI inwards. That acctually may be the only reason why I was able to nair him before he got out of hitstun.

 

[hidensheik11]

so many pikas in here. dittos anybody?

 

[Psyant]

Do we have an active Skype group for PM Pikachu? Saw one mentioned a few pages back but not sure if it got going.

 

[Scatz]

Would like to join as well if one is going.

 

[Comet7]

so after a while i may or may not be coming back to pika but it's theorycrafting time regardless. in the middle of a combo near mid percents, i like to pop my opponents up with a u tilt or up air. when they're up high enough, i like to reverse tail spike into jolt. is this guaranteed? if not, i'd imagine that the opponent would have to jump to avoid it, so then they would be in a bad position. i'd guess that the opponent, by the time pika is out of thunder jolt lag, is still in the air and slightly behind or in front of pika. so, once this happens, i supposed up air to back air would be a good idea, at least for an opponent who lingers behind me? if the opponent is in front, maybe i could go for a reverse or regular bair depending on what's desired or maybe a nair to chain into something else if the opponent will remain in the air long enough for me to do something else to convert into probably an edgeguard. thoughts?

 

[hype machine]

so after a while i may or may not be coming back to pika but it's theorycrafting time regardless. in the middle of a combo near mid percents, i like to pop my opponents up with a u tilt or up air. when they're up high enough, i like to reverse tail spike into jolt. is this guaranteed? if not, i'd imagine that the opponent would have to jump to avoid it, so then they would be in a bad position. i'd guess that the opponent, by the time pika is out of thunder jolt lag, is still in the air and slightly behind or in front of pika. so, once this happens, i supposed up air to back air would be a good idea, at least for an opponent who lingers behind me? if the opponent is in front, maybe i could go for a reverse or regular bair depending on what's desired or maybe a nair to chain into something else if the opponent will remain in the air long enough for me to do something else to convert into probably an edgeguard. thoughts?

Ok I don't think there is enough time to send out a jolt if you do a reverse tail spike at near mid percent. I think it's best to do a tilt or do some jabs if you're going to edge guard them but that's if they are under the stage.

 

[Taytertot]

Im new to the pikachu threads and was surprised to see that there is no moveset gif and or frame data thread for pikachu? I dont think it would be wise to rely on debug mode alone and its usually easy, imo, to see what hitboxes look like with gifs rather then just grinding it out into debug mode until i fully understand. Is that thread in the making still or something?

 

[Choice Scarf]

Funny that I just went through the grinding lol. I'd make some gifs if I had the time and proper recording equipment, but I'm not entirely sure where people get the frame data. Brawlbox?

Anything specific that you want to know?

 

[Comet7]

Ok I don't think there is enough time to send out a jolt if you do a reverse tail spike at near mid percent. I think it's best to do a tilt or do some jabs if you're going to edge guard them but that's if they are under the stage.

well the jolt comes out at frame 18 so it wouldn't surprise me if it had some combo potential if the electric properties keep the opponent in hitstun for a long enough time. and i was talking about getting the opponent off stage to do generic gimp number 234234.

a lot of pika's frame data is the same as melee, so that can be used aside from stuff like up tilt that isn't a completely niche move anymore.

 

[hype machine]

I just found out You can do a legit triple Nair combo on mario at around 50%-60%. I tested it and mixed Di won't help you escape it. However you need to space your first nair properly in order to connect the third nair

Edit:never mind there's no use in that combo when it's easier to just do a nair up smash thunder combo

 

[hype machine]

well the jolt comes out at frame 18 so it wouldn't surprise me if it had some combo potential if the electric properties keep the opponent in hitstun for a long enough time. and i was talking about getting the opponent off stage to do generic gimp number 234234.

a lot of pika's frame data is the same as melee, so that can be used aside from stuff like up tilt that isn't a completely niche move anymore.

I can't conform that you can combo a move into a jolt but You also need to account that there is landing lag or end lag from your previous move, and that the jolt doesn't travel fast enough.You also have to happen to be in position.

What I do know is if you send someone far off the stage you can jump off the stage and send out a jolt if it doesn't hit, you will most likely be able to hit your opponent with a tail spike. If the timing is done correctly the tail spike will spike him towards the jolt and it will true combo.
(Lol idk if this combo is well known or not)

Also you probobly already know this but If you do a running full jump thunder jolt you will be able to combo it into a grab or up smash.

Sorry that's all I know about thunder jolt

 

[Comet7]

jolt takes 99 frames to complete, but it's really likely that if it could be avoided, the endlag is done around the time you reach the ground and the opponent would probably be in the air or on a platform above pika which can be abused to convert into something else.

btw special moves don't have landing lag, but just end lag in general, aside from the landlagspecial that you get if you do a move that puts you into the helpless state.

the general idea of why i'm trying to do this is because i'd rather do something that might combo or at least put myself in a favorable position as opposed to just getting a nair off which could reset the game to plain neutral instead.

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

Full hop thunder jolt waveland out is the future

 

[hype machine]

jolt takes 99 frames to complete, but it's really likely that if it could be avoided, the endlag is done around the time you reach the ground and the opponent would probably be in the air or on a platform above pika which can be abused to convert into something else.

btw special moves don't have landing lag, but just end lag in general, aside from the landlagspecial that you get if you do a move that puts you into the helpless state.

Trust me a ton of people try to challenge the full jump thunder jolt and fail but it won't probobly work if you keep doing it. The jolt gives you protectction because you are behind it. if the the opponent is above you they are in a bad spot
Also I've seen axe do this in pm and it worked

 

[Comet7]

full jump approaching jolt is mediocre since jolt has really low priority and they can just throw any reasonably powerful move out that will beat it and hit you. i'm talking about using jolt in the middle of a combo since it seems to have a really nice knockback angle and seems to be great for linking into other moves, but i just want to find out of it's really legit in any way, since it might be due to the electric properties of the jolt keeping them in hitstun and the fact that jolt moves in front of you so it's sort of like nair chaining since you have to move to get there in time.

 

[hype machine]

Full hop thunder jolt waveland out is the future

doesn't work there's too much end lag ;(

 

[hype machine]

full jump approaching jolt is mediocre since jolt has really low priority and they can just throw any reasonably powerful move out that will beat it and hit you. i'm talking about using jolt in the middle of a combo since it seems to have a really nice knockback angle and seems to be great for linking into other moves, but i just want to find out of it's really legit in any way, since it might be due to the electric properties of the jolt keeping them in hitstun and the fact that jolt moves in front of you so it's sort of like nair chaining since you have to move to get there in time.

It might be possible to true combo it after an attack, but I'm 99% sure that will be the end of the combo because of the amount of end lag it has.

 

[hype machine]

full jump approaching jolt is mediocre since jolt has really low priority and they can just throw any reasonably powerful move out that will beat it and hit you. i'm talking about using jolt in the middle of a combo since it seems to have a really nice knockback angle and seems to be great for linking into other moves, but i just want to find out of it's really legit in any way, since it might be due to the electric properties of the jolt keeping them in hitstun and the fact that jolt moves in front of you so it's sort of like nair chaining since you have to move to get there in time.

Ok I've been testing this out in the lab and found out that if you weak nair someone at mid precents near the ledge and land at the end and send out a jolt afterwards it's very close to being a true combo, I'm talking about 1-2 frames away. Even then, they won't be able to escape it anyways because airdodging means death. It's also a real good option after nairing someone near the ledge. I'm also sure it's possible to true combo this if you do it at the fastest possible frame and if your opponent di the wrong direction. Also if you get a perfectly spaced nair you can almost connect a thunder jolt if they land in front of you but there are just so much other better options like up smash and they are also more guaranteed. Il test this more later I need some sleep for class tommorow

 

[Taytertot]

Funny that I just went through the grinding lol. I'd make some gifs if I had the time and proper recording equipment, but I'm not entirely sure where people get the frame data. Brawlbox?

Anything specific that you want to know?

Im uncertain where people get the frame data from i was just surprised that it wasnt here.

Nothing specific, just would like to see what pikachu's hitboxes look like and what frames they come out in.

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

doesn't work there's too much end lag ;(

It works perfectly fine, thats how I use it in the neutral. Try launching the thunder jolt sooner, the lag should be over right before you hit the ground.

 

[Choice Scarf]

Wow waveland after jolt is pretty great! Gotta practice consistency but I'm digging it.

Also is it just me or does Pikachu not have a death cry during screen KOs? He's supposed to have one right?

 

[hype machine]

jolt takes 99 frames to complete, but it's really likely that if it could be avoided, the endlag is done around the time you reach the ground and the opponent would probably be in the air or on a platform above pika which can be abused to convert into something else.

btw special moves don't have landing lag, but just end lag in general, aside from the landlagspecial that you get if you do a move that puts you into the helpless state.

the general idea of why i'm trying to do this is because i'd rather do something that might combo or at least put myself in a favorable position as opposed to just getting a nair off which could reset the game to plain neutral instead.

Ok I give up, any combo to thunder jolt is unpractical even if you happen to connect the thunder jolt which is unlikely you're still stuck in massive endlag. The only combo I do agree with is a nair > double jump jolt. It only works at mid percent and if you happen to have the opponent DI ing in front of you and is off stage. If you want to do some long combos with pikachu I reccomend doing a nair/fair > uptilt > weak nair> up tilt >? It's a good combo works best agianst characters like shiek lucario and marth but I have done it agianst characters like wolf but at higher precents. U can also do a rising up air to platform downsmash. You don't even have have to l cancel the u air. Sorry but thunder jolt in any combo will end any combo, and is unpractical, probobly won't work, and there's just much better options.

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

Thunder jolt will pretty much never be a good combo options because of its endlag and start up, there's almost always better moves to use. Although thunder jolt can be a great offstage finisher or sometimes if you hit them a bit too far away and you think the jolt can buy you enough time to catch up to them.

 

[Choice Scarf]

Yo @ Jiggle4Life (hope I got the right person), good job repping Pika at Shots Fired. Your playstyle looks very similar to mine but like better lol.

 

[Choice Scarf]

I think we could use the occasional injection of more random lab stuff for Pika.

Jump canceled grab is on frames 7-8 with 30 frames of endlag. Dash grab is 9-10 with 39 frames of endlag. You therefore always want to dash cancel your grabs. Pivot grab out of run is on frames 10-11 with 35 frames of endlag, but it does have a slightly greater range that may be a benefit sometimes. In comparison, a pivot jump canceled grab needs a minimum 1 frame to pivot and 1 frame to jump, so if you are perfect you save a frame.

This is probably already known but Pika has different landing lags for different aerial actions.

• Normal landing lag is 4 frames before shield can come out.
  
• Landing lag after air dodging (regardless of whether into ground or falling from aerial use) is 10 frames.
  
• Quick attacking into the ground or any time above it is 30 frames of landlag, BUT if you fall from a height greater than the length of one QA (for example, jump then immediately QA straight up) Pika goes into a different type of fall (where his tail moves a bit more) and that has 4 frames of endlag.

This probably doesn't really amount to anything as the amount of fall time is very punishable, especially since Pika's drift is worse and he cannot fastfall while in the QA fall, but hey if you find yourself recovering needlessly high then at least you're not completely helpless (only mostly).

If you QAC Jump and jolt within I believe 3 frames, Pika will autocancel, which saves about 7 frames of the jolt's normal landing lag. I'd like confirmation on this if possible. Note this doesn't work if you land above your QAC point. Keep in mind jolt is usually not the safest option out of a QAC.

That being said, you can also B-reverse the QAC Jolt.

Pika can in fact B-reverse Quick Attack, there's just no point since it's a directional move to begin with.

Finally, people have complained QAC Fair is bad since it doesn't work, but you can use how its landing lag autocancels to act maybe 1 or 2 frames faster than a QAC waveland. This only works if you fast fall it (otherwise it takes 12 frames instead of the waveland's 10), and if the PMDT fixes QAC Fair then who knows if it will still be possible in future updates. I just find the QAC Fair to any smash a little more fluid on the C-stick but that's probably just me.

 

[Comet7]

you can straight out pivot grab. there's no need for you to jump since there's a frame where you're "standing up" when you dash dance ("dash" starts and the character moves on frame 2"). then again pivoting is really hard but i just wanted to say that.

 

[Jiggle4Life]

I think we could use the occasional injection of more random lab stuff for Pika.

Jump canceled grab is on frames 7-8 with 30 frames of endlag. Dash grab is 9-10 with 39 frames of endlag. You therefore always want to dash cancel your grabs. Pivot grab out of run is on frames 10-11 with 35 frames of endlag, but it does have a slightly greater range that may be a benefit sometimes. In comparison, a pivot jump canceled grab needs a minimum 1 frame to pivot and 1 frame to jump, so if you are perfect you save a frame.

This is probably already known but Pika has different landing lags for different aerial actions.

• Normal landing lag is 4 frames before shield can come out.
  
• Landing lag after air dodging (regardless of whether into ground or falling from aerial use) is 10 frames.
  
• Quick attacking into the ground or any time above it is 30 frames of landlag, BUT if you fall from a height greater than the length of one QA (for example, jump then immediately QA straight up) Pika goes into a different type of fall (where his tail moves a bit more) and that has 4 frames of endlag.

This probably doesn't really amount to anything as the amount of fall time is very punishable, especially since Pika's drift is worse and he cannot fastfall while in the QA fall, but hey if you find yourself recovering needlessly high then at least you're not completely helpless (only mostly).

If you QAC Jump and jolt within I believe 3 frames, Pika will autocancel, which saves about 7 frames of the jolt's normal landing lag. I'd like confirmation on this if possible. Note this doesn't work if you land above your QAC point. Keep in mind jolt is usually not the safest option out of a QAC.

That being said, you can also B-reverse the QAC Jolt.

Pika can in fact B-reverse Quick Attack, there's just no point since it's a directional move to begin with.

Finally, people have complained QAC Fair is bad since it doesn't work, but you can use how its landing lag autocancels to act maybe 1 or 2 frames faster than a QAC waveland. This only works if you fast fall it (otherwise it takes 12 frames instead of the waveland's 10), and if the PMDT fixes QAC Fair then who knows if it will still be possible in future updates. I just find the QAC Fair to any smash a little more fluid on the C-stick but that's probably just me.

Thanks and good work figuring out all this, I don't really know any frame data for Pikachu so this will definitely help. Always looking for a way to improve

 

[hype machine]

Pikachu is the 4th least used characher in project m. I think that speaks for itself. http://smashboards.com/rankings/project-m/league/teams

 

[hype machine]

A good pikachu tip

after playing a few weeks on netplay with pikachu, I noticed pikachu does very well on crossup nair/fair. U have a ton of options when you land behind your opponent and your opponent has almost none. You can do a rising u air and combo of it. You can do an uptilt, and can give u a huge punish opportunity, or you can get a grab, or do a downsmash. Landing behind your opponent will most likely win you the neutral game, I wish I knew about this earlier.

I always knew about it, but I didn't know you'll almost get a punish off of it every time

 

[Scatz]

So, I'm getting stumped at how to play vs Ivy. Ivy's Nair has some ridiculous hitboxes that beats out anything I attempt (Usmash, Nair, etc.). Doesn't help that I got 4-stocked by Reflex's Ivy this past weekend after he learned a few things I couldn't find an answer to.

Any advice on how to play this matchup?

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

So, I'm getting stumped at how to play vs Ivy. Ivy's Nair has some ridiculous hitboxes that beats out anything I attempt (Usmash, Nair, etc.). Doesn't help that I got 4-stocked by Reflex's Ivy this past weekend after he learned a few things I couldn't find an answer to.

Any advice on how to play this matchup?

What was his strategy like when he played you?

 

[Scatz]

What was his strategy like when he played you?

Late, but would be better to just show instead of describing it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SS_uau28UY0&list=PLxLAH86IfdJv8Eo7PAVivJtHy23W8_dyv&index=6&hd=1