Q&A Pikachu Q&A Thread (Ask a Quick Question, Get a Quick Answer)

[jmjb]

I'm trying to get used to up smashing with sliding my fingers from jump to a, so I can get used to upsmashing this way out of shield. is there any frame disadvantage doing this in normal play? as in not shielding?
to reiterate: does jump canceling up smash take as many frames to come out as normal up smash?

 

[Thor]

I'm trying to get used to up smashing with sliding my fingers from jump to a, so I can get used to upsmashing this way out of shield. is there any frame disadvantage doing this in normal play? as in not shielding?
to reiterate: does jump canceling up smash take as many frames to come out as normal up smash?

I'm not sure on the exact mechanics of c-sticking a usmash out of a run, but in PM I heard you get one frame of jumpsquat then the usmash, so it's the most efficient way to usmash out of a run in terms of speed, and it's 100% consistent [can you hit the c-stick up? You got the frame-perfect jump-cancel!]. Doing from jump to A will slow down the usmash by a few frames if you're not frame-perfect.

Now, in Smash 4, I don't know if it jump-cancels like that or just instantly usmashes [I'd guess jump-cancel usmash], but if you are not shielding, when you do it out of a run, you will definitely have a slower usmash if you don't get the usmash to come out the very next frame. You will lose the same number of frames [or one more, contingent on how c-sticking usmash out of a run works] if you usmash this way standing still.

Also, if you leave tap jump on, you can do usmash out of shield by hitting both sticks up nearly simultaneously, or by doing up hard and then A very quickly. This is the method I usually try to use for usmash out of shield. If you do not use tap jump, then this doesn't apply.

Hey ya'll! I over the last few months picked up and have grown to adore him, he's quickly becoming my co-main with , and due to that enjoyment I thought it'd be high time for me to come into Q&A so I know whether or not I'm doing this right.

I have down all of his auto-cancel aerials and most of the quick attack angles, my QAC is a bit rough only able to do it about 3 times in quick succession and nearly not at all in a match. My off-stage game is mainly comprised of his amazing N-air and Up-air if going for a mix up with a few rising thunders here and there for a mix up or if I don't think my opponent can respond to it that well. Also having a bit of trouble with continuing a combo after d-throw > UP-tilt(for low percent/fast fallers) > full hop u-air > u-air (at the arc of the full hop) > into double jump DI reaction, can't seem to notice a persons DI that well within combos, following that issue FF F-air into regrab after the usual d-throw combo is another big issue for me, can't seem to notice the DI.

If ya'll could give any tips and any information of what else I should be learning to git gud with the little mouse that would be wonderful! Hope you're all having a good day as well.

Tips: Please don't use run-on sentences if you can help it ._. They make it harder to understand what you're saying.

If by QAC you mean off platforms, that's sometimes useful but I admit I feel even ESAM rarely uses it.

It is good that you have autocancel dair down, but don't be afraid to fastfall it once in a while for the shockwave [that can stuff shieldgrabs, although you usually end up grabbed if they shield the shockwave]. Dair is an amazing offstage tool because it does 12% for the entire hitbox, lasts 12 frames [1/5 of a second, only nair has longer continuous hitbox, although fair and bair have good durationa s well], and has a low angle with rather strong knockback. It also has a very nice disjoint... if you hit Ness later in his PK Thunder 2 (PKT2) [the part where he has already hit himself and is moving... you need to not do it right as he starts travelling because he is intangible for frames 1-9 after hitting himself], you will beat out the PKT2 cleanly and send him back outwards without taking damage, and if you are quick about it, you can usually simply do this over and over until the dair kills him.

Bair offstage is also quite useful. If you hit someone with bair, you can opt to fastfall it or not fastfall it. If you fastfall it, they will usually slip out of the bair, which means if they try to tech pre-emptively, they will airdodge and usually die. Meanwhile, not fastfalling allows you to attempt a stage spike, and that stage spike is not easy to tech. If you do a fastfall bair on top of Fox or Falco and trade with the fire, bair acts like a spike as well, making bair useful offstage as well [so long as you are wary of its long duration] (bair can do that with some other recoveries as well I believe, but Fire Fox and Fire Bird are the two easiest examples of it).

As for following up two uairs, I usually use bair if they go behind me or fair if they go in front of me. I seem to have issues doing a nair after that sort of combo... I might be using the wrong part of uair or something. Following a person's DI requires quite a bit of practice, but it is well worth learning [something I have practiced somewhat and been able to implement far more than other Pikachus I see is utilt thunder... it requires knowing where utilt will send them in advance, and dashing that way, but then reacting to exactly how far they go so that you can stop and nail the thunder. I am unsure if it is a true combo, but when I do it quickly enough, it seems like it is not possible for my opponents to airdodge, or at least difficult to react to]. If you make a point of trying to follow their DI with bair or fair after doing uair, it should get easier as time goes on.

Hope this helps.

 

[Jonarobin]

I'm a Greninja main, thus a fast faller, and I have a hard time doing much to Pikachu with his general safety, and I had a couple questions...

1. Is up-throw to thunder/thunderbolt (down-b) DI-able or escapable specifically for fast fallers (not sure it matters)

2. what should I do when I'm being uptilt spammed because its really annoying lol, figuring without a jump i can't escape or just can't at all because again, fast faller.

Or just any tips at all against Pikachu maybe especially for Greninja?
I'm fairly sure Gren has a terrible matchup... I feel like I need a secondary for Pika almost...

What areas does he struggle? Sorry if this isn't a good place for it...

 

[ZantetsukenLion]

Tips: Please don't use run-on sentences if you can help it ._. They make it harder to understand what you're saying.

If by QAC you mean off platforms, that's sometimes useful but I admit I feel even ESAM rarely uses it.

It is good that you have autocancel dair down, but don't be afraid to fastfall it once in a while for the shockwave [that can stuff shieldgrabs, although you usually end up grabbed if they shield the shockwave]. Dair is an amazing offstage tool because it does 12% for the entire hitbox, lasts 12 frames [1/5 of a second, only nair has longer continuous hitbox, although fair and bair have good durationa s well], and has a low angle with rather strong knockback. It also has a very nice disjoint... if you hit Ness later in his PK Thunder 2 (PKT2) [the part where he has already hit himself and is moving... you need to not do it right as he starts travelling because he is intangible for frames 1-9 after hitting himself], you will beat out the PKT2 cleanly and send him back outwards without taking damage, and if you are quick about it, you can usually simply do this over and over until the dair kills him.

Bair offstage is also quite useful. If you hit someone with bair, you can opt to fastfall it or not fastfall it. If you fastfall it, they will usually slip out of the bair, which means if they try to tech pre-emptively, they will airdodge and usually die. Meanwhile, not fastfalling allows you to attempt a stage spike, and that stage spike is not easy to tech. If you do a fastfall bair on top of Fox or Falco and trade with the fire, bair acts like a spike as well, making bair useful offstage as well [so long as you are wary of its long duration] (bair can do that with some other recoveries as well I believe, but Fire Fox and Fire Bird are the two easiest examples of it).

As for following up two uairs, I usually use bair if they go behind me or fair if they go in front of me. I seem to have issues doing a nair after that sort of combo... I might be using the wrong part of uair or something. Following a person's DI requires quite a bit of practice, but it is well worth learning [something I have practiced somewhat and been able to implement far more than other Pikachus I see is utilt thunder... it requires knowing where utilt will send them in advance, and dashing that way, but then reacting to exactly how far they go so that you can stop and nail the thunder. I am unsure if it is a true combo, but when I do it quickly enough, it seems like it is not possible for my opponents to airdodge, or at least difficult to react to]. If you make a point of trying to follow their DI with bair or fair after doing uair, it should get easier as time goes on.

Hope this helps.

Sorry about the run-offs, was trying to get as much information as I could out there.

With that character specific info, I had no clue that d-air's disjoint beat out PKT2! Helps a ton since I had just been fast falling then rising thunder under them to try to punish their recovery. (That knockback on PKT2 is damn scary)

The b-air info is much appreciated, I had been wondering how to implement its usefulness off-stage. I had been mainly using it as a quick rising hit with full-hop b-air into someone above me as a mix up.

I'm glad I'm not the only one with the n-air finisher with the u-air string. :/ I guess that also means I just need more practice with the DI as well. That u-tilt into thunder sounds incredibly useful especially if the opponent is expecting your usual. Although quick question: Do you do it like you do a DI responded Up-throw into thunder? ( DI Away = > > + not sure of the term for this sorry!) Or is it just as simple as run underneath and thunder?

Thanks for the help already, I'll be sure to try to implement that stuff and practice my DI responces.

 

[Thor]

Sorry about the run-offs, was trying to get as much information as I could out there.

With that character specific info, I had no clue that d-air's disjoint beat out PKT2! Helps a ton since I had just been fast falling then rising thunder under them to try to punish their recovery. (That knockback on PKT2 is damn scary)

The b-air info is much appreciated, I had been wondering how to implement its usefulness off-stage. I had been mainly using it as a quick rising hit with full-hop b-air into someone above me as a mix up.

I'm glad I'm not the only one with the n-air finisher with the u-air string. :/ I guess that also means I just need more practice with the DI as well. That u-tilt into thunder sounds incredibly useful especially if the opponent is expecting your usual. Although quick question: Do you do it like you do a DI responded Up-throw into thunder? ( DI Away = > > + not sure of the term for this sorry!) Or is it just as simple as run underneath and thunder?

Thanks for the help already, I'll be sure to try to implement that stuff and practice my DI responces.

I hadn't known dair could beat out PKT2 either until Hoenn told me, and a reminder that PKT2 is invincible on the startup, so be wary of doing the dair too close and getting hit anyway. It's definitely tricky at first, but if you spend a little time doing it, nailing them out of PKT2 becomes much easier.

As for thunder stuff: I usually get away with run underneath to thunder, but it's rather finicky and I still mess it up sometimes [and there's a sort of stopping animation that costs some time which is definitely not a good thing if we want it to be a true combo]. Also, jumping vs not jumping it is percentage-dependent - if you launch them high enough with utilt [due to percent, their DI, etc.], you'll have to jump to connect the thunder [much like if you do a uthrow thunder on someone who you know doesn't DI, at some percentages you have to jump to connect the thunder]. I don't do it the way you described, usually doing a double jump instead of those inputs [and there is currently no succint term for that, but you could call it a RAR thunder, RAR being reverse aerial rush, which is the first three inputs you described], but that method should work too [again, assuming they go high enough to where a grounded thunder won't connect].

I'm a Greninja main, thus a fast faller, and I have a hard time doing much to Pikachu with his general safety, and I had a couple questions...

1. Is up-throw to thunder/thunderbolt (down-b) DI-able or escapable specifically for fast fallers (not sure it matters)

2. what should I do when I'm being uptilt spammed because its really annoying lol, figuring without a jump i can't escape or just can't at all because again, fast faller.

Or just any tips at all against Pikachu maybe especially for Greninja?
I'm fairly sure Gren has a terrible matchup... I feel like I need a secondary for Pika almost...

What areas does he struggle? Sorry if this isn't a good place for it...

1. You can DI up throw thunder. You have to hold left or right, but here's a warning - if you hold towards Pikachu and he uses dthrow, you go straight upwards and might get hit by thunder anyway. For DIing all of Pikachu's throws, I recommend always holding away from him - this DIs dthrow and uthrow correctly while making you live a while against bthrow and getting you far away from Pikachu after an fthrow [you can test yourself, fthrow has very little KO power... I'd be surprised if it killed at 200% on Jigglypuff].

2. Ah, one of Pikachu's best tools! The first rule of thumb, don't get hit, applies here, but a couple of things that are helpful should you get hit by one:
- Once you've been hit, I recommend tapping up with the c-stick each time you are hit to try to get above the utilts (called smash DI, or hitstun shuffling in the tips that scroll by), while holding up [don't jump!], so that if you get high enough that one whiffs, you can jump away [Greninja has an excellent double jump].
- I don't know the specifics, but I believe Greninja has a special Shadow Sneak trick that lets him escape multi-hit moves [I've been told it works on ZSS up+B if you time it to be between the second-to-last and last hits.] I'm not certain this would work on someone using utilt over and over, but it's something you should almost certainly ask the Greninja boars about [especially if this is unfamiliar]. If it works on Pikachu's repeated utilt, please let us know!
- Remember that even if Pikachu gets a full uttilt string and a few uairs into nair to finish it off, you took... 40%? It's a decent chunk of damage, sure, but I'm pretty sure Greninja has some seriously strong combos of his own [not to mention a few potent kill moves in his smashes and fair], and Pikachu is a lightweight and rather fragile, so don't get too discouraged when it happens.

As for struggles Pikachu has: low range, lightweight, VERY poor airspeed outside of a jump and Quick Attack (seriously, have a Sheik dthrow you at 150%, double jump away, then just hold a direction and notice how very slowly you move in that direction), projectile is present but rather laggy (when I use Sheik as Pikachu I often punish thunder jolt with bouncing fish), relatively low KO power [two decent smashes but aerials rarely KO except offstage or at like 160+%], no DI mixups from his throw game [always go in front of him], his jab is rather unsafe when not at the ledge, Quick Attack requires rather specific precision for anything beyond generic onstage use and simple recoveries, ... there are probably more, but here's a decent list of them.

If I had to guess, the matchup is not terrible for Greninja, but a matchup I'd guess he loses. I suggest also asking the Greninja boards about Pikachu in general [especially Shadow Sneaking out of utilt strings] if you haven't already.

 

[SirroMinus1]

I probably missed this discussion somewhere earlier in this thread. Who do you think think is Pikachus Worst match-up and why?
I'm gonna start and say Lucario. Lucario don't necessarily beat Pikachu but his ability plus rage just literally hurt Pikachu a lot. and sometimes Pikachu have a hard time getting that stock

 

[Jonarobin]

1. You can DI up throw thunder. You have to hold left or right, but here's a warning - if you hold towards Pikachu and he uses dthrow, you go straight upwards and might get hit by thunder anyway. For DIing all of Pikachu's throws, I recommend always holding away from him - this DIs dthrow and uthrow correctly while making you live a while against bthrow and getting you far away from Pikachu after an fthrow [you can test yourself, fthrow has very little KO power... I'd be surprised if it killed at 200% on Jigglypuff].

2. Ah, one of Pikachu's best tools! The first rule of thumb, don't get hit, applies here, but a couple of things that are helpful should you get hit by one:
- Once you've been hit, I recommend tapping up with the c-stick each time you are hit to try to get above the utilts (called smash DI, or hitstun shuffling in the tips that scroll by), while holding up [don't jump!], so that if you get high enough that one whiffs, you can jump away [Greninja has an excellent double jump].
- I don't know the specifics, but I believe Greninja has a special Shadow Sneak trick that lets him escape multi-hit moves [I've been told it works on ZSS up+B if you time it to be between the second-to-last and last hits.] I'm not certain this would work on someone using utilt over and over, but it's something you should almost certainly ask the Greninja boars about [especially if this is unfamiliar]. If it works on Pikachu's repeated utilt, please let us know!
- Remember that even if Pikachu gets a full uttilt string and a few uairs into nair to finish it off, you took... 40%? It's a decent chunk of damage, sure, but I'm pretty sure Greninja has some seriously strong combos of his own [not to mention a few potent kill moves in his smashes and fair], and Pikachu is a lightweight and rather fragile, so don't get too discouraged when it happens.

As for struggles Pikachu has: low range, lightweight, VERY poor airspeed outside of a jump and Quick Attack (seriously, have a Sheik dthrow you at 150%, double jump away, then just hold a direction and notice how very slowly you move in that direction), projectile is present but rather laggy (when I use Sheik as Pikachu I often punish thunder jolt with bouncing fish), relatively low KO power [two decent smashes but aerials rarely KO except offstage or at like 160+%], no DI mixups from his throw game [always go in front of him], his jab is rather unsafe when not at the ledge, Quick Attack requires rather specific precision for anything beyond generic onstage use and simple recoveries, ... there are probably more, but here's a decent list of them.

If I had to guess, the matchup is not terrible for Greninja, but a matchup I'd guess he loses. I suggest also asking the Greninja boards about Pikachu in general [especially Shadow Sneaking out of utilt strings] if you haven't already.

Thanks a lot for all this info!

1. Thanks, glad to know as I got caught in this a lot thinking it was a true combo

2. -Tapping up on the c-stick..? Does the left stick work? I have tap jump off, so would holding the main stick work or is it a c-stick dependent thing? I wouldn't wanna upair accidentally and get hit again...
I think I've tried side b-ing out but for some reason it sends you up doing this sometimes, so unless it happens to send you lower and you avoid the next u-tilt (I'm actually not sure if there's invincibility frames on Shadow Sneak or not) I don't feel like it works too well.

As for the matchup, I'd definitely say Greninja loses. It feels really hard to get a hit on Pikachu when Pika's just saying safe a distance away throwing out quick aerials and occasionally thunderjolt (thats what neutral-b is called right), and it's harder to hit pikachu with fast fall fair, and also somewhat harder to nair him as well.

Pikachu's fast, his quick aerials (greninja doesn't have fast out aerials really) and his grab being much faster than greninja's very overly laggy standing grab makes things difficult. Jab does help, but I think I end up having trouble landing against Pikachu too.
(I think bad landings are more a bad habit/flaw/something I'm having difficulty with in general, though. So that's partly me as a player)

I think my problem is I end up approaching through ff-nair and ff-fair too much and end up falling to Pika's quick aerials and juggles, or even just a shield. It feels like I can almost never approach with dash grab against Pika either.

I think I panic a lot against thunderjolt unfortunately and end up landing in a punishable way.

I don't have a super large experience against Pika, but I've been trying to study him more lately since I lost at my last local.

Thanks again for your wonderful advice!
Do you have any other tips on the matchup or any other potential secondaries I could pick up to combat him, since I believe the Greninja boards last I saw rated the matchup 40:60 in Pika's favor. (I have been playing Mario as a tentative secondary lately, have played some Ness)

 

[Soul.]

Greninja FAir should be pretty safe on shield tbh; I heard we can't get free dash grabs but not really sure. Might want to check their boards (especially the social if they aren't talking about Pika in their MU thread) for that. Honestly, spaced FAir from Greninja should be pretty safe if you see us shield frequently. Just make sure you're out of grab range.

Hydro Pump messes up QA in neutral too so it makes us not use it as much as we want to.

Also if you feel like you still have trouble with the MU, Mario is a pretty good choice as a secondary as he does fine vs. Pika, likely winning the MU. I don't think it's that bad for Frog, though. I dunno a lot about the MU either so this is all the advice I can give. Greninja mains should give you further advice about it.

p.s: Yes, Thunder Jolt is the neutral special name

 

[Thor]

EDIT: Partially (Gre)ninja'd by Soul.

Thanks a lot for all this info!

2. -Tapping up on the c-stick..? Does the left stick work? I have tap jump off, so would holding the main stick work or is it a c-stick dependent thing? I wouldn't wanna upair accidentally and get hit again...
I think I've tried side b-ing out but for some reason it sends you up doing this sometimes, so unless it happens to send you lower and you avoid the next u-tilt (I'm actually not sure if there's invincibility frames on Shadow Sneak or not) I don't feel like it works too well.

Both sticks do work [if this game is anything like Melee/Brawl/64], but if you're holding up [as far as I know] you will very slightly increase your knockback. I think ASDI is still in the game as well, so this gives you an ASDI input up each time, but this would help you pop out sooner [as opposed to holding down which I think keeps you in there slightly longer]. If you have tap jump off then yeah you can use just the left stick, but I believe using both is most effective. That said, if there is a threshold where holding up launches you and not holding up doesn't, you'll eat an extra utilt, so there's a tradeoff.

As for the matchup, I'd definitely say Greninja loses. It feels really hard to get a hit on Pikachu when Pika's just saying safe a distance away throwing out quick aerials and occasionally thunderjolt (thats what neutral-b is called right), and it's harder to hit pikachu with fast fall fair, and also somewhat harder to nair him as well.

Yes neutral B is thunder jolt. Thunder jolt has a FAF of 58... I'm not sure Greninja has the tools to punish it, but I think I mentioned earlier that as Sheik I'm often able to bouncing fish punish it basically on reaction [not a fan of the ditto]. I can understand fair and dair being tricky to space around, but have you tried bair? If Greninja's legs aren't disjointed it probably doesn't work, but you might be able to intercept fair with bair. Spacing fair is certainly no easy task, but there is a range advantage present. I know he is a hard to hit, but keep in mind that Greninja is quite the slippery frog as well. I agree Greninja loses, but I don't think it warrants a secondary [unless every losing MU does, then just pick Sheik or maybe Pikachu depending on how you think his matchups with Mario bros go].

Pikachu's fast, his quick aerials (greninja doesn't have fast out aerials really) and his grab being much faster than greninja's very overly laggy standing grab makes things difficult. Jab does help, but I think I end up having trouble landing against Pikachu too.
(I think bad landings are more a bad habit/flaw/something I'm having difficulty with in general, though. So that's partly me as a player)

I think my problem is I end up approaching through ff-nair and ff-fair too much and end up falling to Pika's quick aerials and juggles, or even just a shield. It feels like I can almost never approach with dash grab against Pika either.

I think I panic a lot against thunderjolt unfortunately and end up landing in a punishable way.

I think you can just jab Thunder Jolt. Definitely test that, but I know for sure DK can. If not jab, try dtilt [since I believe that has good IASA/FAF].

If FF fair is getting shielded, can you space better? Pikachu has a lackluster OoS game and dash grab is like frame 17... with fair having 18 frames of landing lag, it should be safe on shield? 14/1.75+2 = 10, so I believe it's at best -8, but more practically against Pikachu I'd guess it's not worse than about -16... if you tighten the spacing, both vertically and horizontally, you should be able to make fair -> jab something Pikachu can't grab [or even punish really, except for punishing jab], and at that point, it's a mixup game, but no longer a guaranteed punish for Pikachu.

I don't have a super large experience against Pika, but I've been trying to study him more lately since I lost at my last local.

Thanks again for your wonderful advice!
Do you have any other tips on the matchup or any other potential secondaries I could pick up to combat him, since I believe the Greninja boards last I saw rated the matchup 40:60 in Pika's favor. (I have been playing Mario as a tentative secondary lately, have played some Ness)

As I mentioned above, 40:60 isn't terrible. Annoying, maybe even difficult, but doable. I'm of the opinion that Mario Pikachu is even, so yeah that's a good choice. Some say Luigi does better than Mario, I think they are both even, but if you like that plumber most Pika mains fear him more than Mario.

 

[Soul.]

Luigi isn't that bad anymore, but still not in our favor. Maybe even. Campy Pika lol.

Mentioned Mario because he's just consistent. Doc works too I guess cuz MLG overhype

 

[Megamang]

Ive heard some people say mario has trouble with campy pika. I havent really seen this matchup played this way at high level since ESAM is so aggressive. Though keeping the pressure on lets you land smashes easier, so maybe that's optimal. I really dont know, its probably my worst MU.


Being really safe keeps pika alive, but mario survives too. I think the key is knowing when to go agro and when to abuse marios averageish range with disjoints and projectiles.

A fresh dtilt is really safe in thus MU because it can clank safely with usmash, moves your hitbox down, and can also stuff a fsmash from mario.

Another nice trick is baiting out cape with tjolt spam, and then punishing cape with a precise quick attack.

 

[Jonarobin]

Greninja FAir should be pretty safe on shield tbh; I heard we can't get free dash grabs but not really sure. Might want to check their boards (especially the social if they aren't talking about Pika in their MU thread) for that. Honestly, spaced FAir from Greninja should be pretty safe if you see us shield frequently. Just make sure you're out of grab range.

Hydro Pump messes up QA in neutral too so it makes us not use it as much as we want to.

Also if you feel like you still have trouble with the MU, Mario is a pretty good choice as a secondary as he does fine vs. Pika, likely winning the MU. I don't think it's that bad for Frog, though. I dunno a lot about the MU either so this is all the advice I can give. Greninja mains should give you further advice about it.

p.s: Yes, Thunder Jolt is the neutral special name

Yeah Fair is safe on shield if you space it far enough, but as I said I have trouble with a lot of unsafe landings, and I have a hard time hitting Pikachu compared to other characters because of his short size. It doesn't seem like an easy task to happen to space it far enough either, especially if pika's coming to intercept. I'm gonna try to practice hitting shorter characters though.

I'm not sure I'd know when to use Hydro pump as QA often comes out really fast and it sounds hard to react and aim to it like you're saying, in the neutral. Might be more possible than I'm thinking though, I'm often unsure what to do against QA so I think I end up shielding, I suppose I could always jump away though...

Thanks for your reply, I'll ask the Greninja boards at this point if I have any other questions.

EDIT: Partially (Gre)ninja'd by Soul.


Both sticks do work [if this game is anything like Melee/Brawl/64], but if you're holding up [as far as I know] you will very slightly increase your knockback. I think ASDI is still in the game as well, so this gives you an ASDI input up each time, but this would help you pop out sooner [as opposed to holding down which I think keeps you in there slightly longer]. If you have tap jump off then yeah you can use just the left stick, but I believe using both is most effective. That said, if there is a threshold where holding up launches you and not holding up doesn't, you'll eat an extra utilt, so there's a tradeoff.


Yes neutral B is thunder jolt. Thunder jolt has a FAF of 58... I'm not sure Greninja has the tools to punish it, but I think I mentioned earlier that as Sheik I'm often able to bouncing fish punish it basically on reaction [not a fan of the ditto]. I can understand fair and dair being tricky to space around, but have you tried bair? If Greninja's legs aren't disjointed it probably doesn't work, but you might be able to intercept fair with bair. Spacing fair is certainly no easy task, but there is a range advantage present. I know he is a hard to hit, but keep in mind that Greninja is quite the slippery frog as well. I agree Greninja loses, but I don't think it warrants a secondary [unless every losing MU does, then just pick Sheik or maybe Pikachu depending on how you think his matchups with Mario bros go].


I think you can just jab Thunder Jolt. Definitely test that, but I know for sure DK can. If not jab, try dtilt [since I believe that has good IASA/FAF].

If FF fair is getting shielded, can you space better? Pikachu has a lackluster OoS game and dash grab is like frame 17... with fair having 18 frames of landing lag, it should be safe on shield? 14/1.75+2 = 10, so I believe it's at best -8, but more practically against Pikachu I'd guess it's not worse than about -16... if you tighten the spacing, both vertically and horizontally, you should be able to make fair -> jab something Pikachu can't grab [or even punish really, except for punishing jab], and at that point, it's a mixup game, but no longer a guaranteed punish for Pikachu.


As I mentioned above, 40:60 isn't terrible. Annoying, maybe even difficult, but doable. I'm of the opinion that Mario Pikachu is even, so yeah that's a good choice. Some say Luigi does better than Mario, I think they are both even, but if you like that plumber most Pika mains fear him more than Mario.

I'll look up ASDI. It's mainly just tapping both? sticks when I'm in hitstun right?

I'll see if Bair works on fair though I kinda assume Pika's fair wins, not really sure though. Not sure if Greninja's bair has a disjoint, but I'm used to it's hitbox well.

Ooh jabbing Thunder Jolt I'll test that, and other moves as well.
I happened to meet a good pikachu at a local and we're gonna spar online so I'll get some experience with the matchup that way and see if I do better with Greninja or Mario (way way way more experience with Gren though)

Thanks again for the advice! I'll try to do better against Pika either Greninja or Mario or whoever!

 

[Soul.]

Definitely. Go to Training mode and try spacing with Greninja's FAir on small characters' shields.

About Hydro Pump, I believe a few Greninja mains said it's a good way to gimp Pikachu off the stage while it's recovering with QA, although I can see why it would be hard to do. Should be possible though; try it out regardless.

If you're having unsafe landings, you might want to ask them which landing options are safe for Greninja.

 

[Kupo Rose]

Is there a proper way to DI Pika's Fair and Uair strings at low-mid %s?

Or do they just true combo into itself?

 

[jmjb]

so if you don't want to use your jump or you just don't have it, what's a good way to thunder off stage without fast falling a bit from pressing down? (don't wanna use c stick for special)

 

[Thor]

so if you don't want to use your jump or you just don't have it, what's a good way to thunder off stage without fast falling a bit from pressing down? (don't wanna use c stick for special)

Don't press down that far???

Alternatively, if you're near a wall, you can do some walljump b-reverse thunder shenanigans. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-lSsE67LSY

I recommend just going into training and just practicing holding down only slightly, not all the way, and trying to do thunder. It takes some practice [and it's something I frankly don't really bother with, since if the bolt misses it's an almost certain SD], but if you practice it you should get it down.

There may be some angle you can hold all the way where you get thunder and don't fastfall, but if there is, someone else can tell you about such a thing [I don't know it if it exists].

 

[Soul.]

A few DI things:

1. How was quarter-circle DI in Brawl?
2. To do it, do you just tap the control stick up and down to the left and right corners ( )?

Asking because apparently there's a post on Twitter saying this works well against Ryu's strings. I assume high hitlag, multiple hits and how Ryu has to position himself have to do with this?

Source: https://twitter.com/noji_nko/status/669448127926149120

The video on the URL has Ike getting out of Ryu's stuff. I don't feel like saying we may have an easier time with Ryu but it does seem worth learning.

 

[RosalinaSGS]

Are there advantages to the custom down Bs? Is it easier to thunder shine with distant thunder?

 

[Megamang]

Soul. Quarter circle DI is basically rapidly rolling your stick in the corner of the direction you want to go.

So say you wanna go away from ryus rapid dtilts. Roll the stick rapidly on the side away from ryu. You want to input 'up+away' 'away' 'down away' repeatedly, rolling the stick on that quarter circle is the best way to do this. Hope that helps. You can practice with smart bombs in training. You can escape halbards laser with sdi!

 

[Thor]

Soul. Quarter circle DI is basically rapidly rolling your stick in the corner of the direction you want to go.

So say you wanna go away from ryus rapid dtilts. Roll the stick rapidly on the side away from ryu. You want to input 'up+away' 'away' 'down away' repeatedly, rolling the stick on that quarter circle is the best way to do this. Hope that helps. You can practice with smart bombs in training. You can escape halbards laser with sdi!

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Smash_directional_influence

When I need to DI stuff like that, I also use the c-stick, for so-called "Double stick SDI" [also mentioned in the article].

If the "Dealing with Jank" thread is ever revived, Ryu's utilt should be made a priority, as that move is really really good if you can't SDI.

 

[C4-]

Are there any very good wifi pika's on the boards ? I'm a ranked wario main in NorCal looking for some wifi practice with some good pikachus. PM me or reply if your interested, I can of course offer some good wario practice as well in return

 

[Thor]

Random thing: I know a while back there was a discussion about how much safer our moves got on shield... notably, dtilt is now +1 after dropping shield [i.e., it is -6 on shield].

If anyone has the data, I would like the numbers for dair, fsmash, fair [I believe it is -6 aka +1 on shield drop but you need a fastfall in there], and some portion of utilt [front or back, I can easily find the numbers for the other half from there]. If someone just has the complete list of shield safety and dumps it here, that'd be awesome, but I really just want those numbers [although if someone does have the full data set, that should probably be added to the Pikachu directory].

 

[Angiance]

Are there any very good wifi pika's on the boards ? I'm a ranked wario main in NorCal looking for some wifi practice with some good pikachus. PM me or reply if your interested, I can of course offer some good wario practice as well in return

Add my NNID:AliceRohzn

We will play later

 

[Insightful]

My question isn't so quick because I can't understand what I'm doing wrong. Today I went on For Glory for the first time and I literally went 2 wins and 70 loses. I was ranging like hell so I would like to post questions on here just to make sure my general understanding of Pikachu is correct.

First I'd like to start with Pikachu's most effective combo's. I will post all of the ones that and I know and I just want to know if I'm missing any.

Also I'd also would like to know if these combos vary based on what character you're fighting against.

Okay so here's my combo list for Pikachu:

1. Down Throw + SH Fair. (First combo)
2. Back Throw + Back Air (Second combo)
3. Up Throw + Down B (Third combo)
4. Up throw + Up air (Fourth combo)
5. Up Throw + Up Air [2x] + Nair (Fifth combo)
6. Up Smash + Fair [Low percent] (Sixth combo)
7. Up tilt + Up Air + Up Air (Seventh combo)
8. Up tilt + Up Air [2x] + Down B

These are what I would think are the most effective Pikachu combo's. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

My second question: Can someone please enlighten me on good ways to approach character's with Pikachu? Or post match up stats if possible that I can read.

Third question: How important is quick attack? Is it just good as a recovery or in general as an attack?

Fourth Question: What is Pikachu's Forward B good for?

Fifth Question: How good is Perfect Pivoting and RAR for Pikachu, is it needed to compete in top tier tournaments?

Last but not least. How exactly do you practice? Do you practice against Level 9 bots? Do you practice in FG? Or do you practice in Training Mode? What is the most effective way to practice?

What tactics do people use? What is most effective for Smash 4? Zoning? Hit n Run? Endless combos and aggressive?

Stuff I generally know about Pikachu:

Pikachu's Fair can be VERY punishable if it's blocked by a shield because it has a lot of lag.
Pikachu's doesn't have a lot of kill options with throws.
Pikachu's down throw and, and up throw are the most important for combos.
Back throw is good to throw someone off the stage.
Forward throw is good to rack up damage.
Quick attack is very effective if used correctly.


[If I need to know a lot more please let me know what I am lacking. I am trying to improve and compete in the tournaments with people like Esam and ZeRo. Thank you.]

Also for some reason I can't seem to SH in FG for some strange reason.

tldr; please read

 

[Silfo]

Hello, recently picked up pikachu been watching a lot tournament matches, looking at these fourms etc. anyway I have a few questions that weren't in the FAQ and I do not have enough time to look through this whole thread so here they are.

1.

Shield Pressure with pikachu, I know since 1.1.1 d-tilt is safe on shield (I think) and you can sorta f-air in and out but what are some really good/common shield pressure options or even shield cross up options?
​

2.

Optimal followup after up-air, I've watched many many matches of esam's pikachu now and can't really get a hold of what follow up to do after rising up-air. I've seen n-air, a second up-air, b-air, and f-air and I really don't understand a pattern in his option choice. So really, what aerial should use based on the opponents trajectory?
​

3.

Up throw vs Down throw, I know up throw into thunder works if you follow their DI and d-throw works if they DI in. They can both be used for combo's at low percents so what scenarios should I use what throw?​

 

[Tube of Jokes]

Sometimes when you quick attack into the ground where you could normally QAC you get stuck in a really long lag (feels like melee quick attack landing). Does anyone know how this mechanic works? When does it happen?
I have lost a few matches too it, and I am unable to figure out how it works. Any information on it is highly appreciated
(Happens a lot on Lylat Cruise)

 

[Soul.]

tldr; please read

Side B is only really good at recovering if you're really far away from the stage; it serves no purpose offensively.

Also as far as I know, back throw to bair isn't really a thing.

Quick Attack is pretty important; you can use it to approach, start follow ups, come back to the stage safely, reset back to neutral, etc. There are a lot more ways to use it though.

RAR is good especially on moves like up air as they start behind you. You really aren't going to be hitting anyone with up air on the front so using RAR up airs is always the better option. In general, RAR is worth practicing. Perfect pivots supplement your play.

Training in general is used to get a feel for the character. Take a few minutes to get down QAC angles on stages with platforms or the ledges.

 

[Megamang]

Watching ESAMs stream, he referred to skull bash as easy to hit. Id agree with that, it seems generous/meaty/whatever people call it. Id agree, tho i havent implemented it successfully yet.

 

[thomas4america]

Watching ESAMs stream, he referred to skull bash as easy to hit. Id agree with that, it seems generous/meaty/whatever people call it. Id agree, tho i havent implemented it successfully yet.

I sometimes use it (uncharged) when i'm close to someone who's standing at the ledge while i'm on my way back. if they shield it, I fall safely to the ledge. If not, some free damage that they definitely weren't expecting.

 

[jmjb]

what's the timing on pikachus jab lock?
whenever I do forward smash after 3 jab locks it either goes right thru them cause they have get up invincibility or they get up and can roll away or shield.

 

[Pikabunz]

After a jab lock, charge an fsmash and wait for them to fully stand up then release fsmash.

 

[jmjb]

After a jab lock, charge an fsmash and wait for them to fully stand up then release fsmash.

hmm, thanks for the fast reply, so it's during the normal get up inbetween get up invincibility and before the FAF.
how tight is that window? it seems really tight cause I've playing with it in training mode for an hour.
thanks again for the fast response.

 

[Pikabunz]

I don't think the window is that tight. Just keep practicing it.

 

[thomas4america]

jmjb fsmash has a hitbox that stays out for a good amount of time, so i usually release right as they're standing up. Hitting the sweetspot is optimal, but if you're too early, they still get hit by some part of the lingering hitbox.

 

[M15t3R E]

Getting the jab lock is more difficult than hitting them with the f-smash afterward. Just charge the f-smash immediately after the third jab and immediately release once they fully stand up. Like the very frame that they get up if you can.

 

[DarkBlueSpark]

So after playing around with the characters, I decided to main Pikachu. I'm not good at all, I lose quite often in For Glory, but playing the character feels right to me. I tend to grab and use nair and bair offstage a lot, but it's pretty predictable. What moves, techniques, and/or strategies should I be practicing in Training mode?
Since online is a bit different from offline, what techniques cannot be performed reliably online?

 

[Pikabunz]

Practice sh dairs, spacing with fair and dtilt, dthrow combos, uthrow to thunder, and learn how to use QA properly. There's more to Pikachu than just those things, but those are the essentials.

 

[DarkBlueSpark]

Practice sh dairs, spacing with fair and dtilt, dthrow combos, uthrow to thunder, and learn how to use QA properly. There's more to Pikachu than just those things, but those are the essentials.

Oh, I thought the combo was dthrow to Thunder?
I read that QA should be used to increase one's mobility, but in what situations should it be used? I think I read it was Pikachu's best attack. Maybe someone could share a link to a thread or post that explains it well? I'd really appreciate it.
Thanks for the tips, I'll get to work on those
Will post a couple of videos of me playing in the video critique thread soon, I did pretty badly, but hoping someone can point out the flaws I made so I can improve.

 

[Soul.]

There's both uthrow Thunder and dthrow Thunder. For instance, dthrow to Thunder works as a mixup near the ledge if the opponent DIs toward Pikachu (i.e when you see them being sent straight up) instead of away. I figure most people DI towards the stage after being thrown so there's a chance it may work.

Up throw to Thunder is more commonly used, though again since DI plays a factor and you need to predict where they'll be DIing, I suggest you learn how to RAR Thunder.

 

[Insightful]

Hm so today I played against a friend who used Mario as his character (online) & I used Pikachu of course, I started to realize that I'd get punished really easily when ever id use SH Fair or fair in general unless he was off the stage & I was going for the kill... My grabs wasn't connecting as fast as his were either so I tried to wait it out with thunder jolts.. Then I realized that he had way more options for approaches than I do so I tried to abuse quick attack... Just wondering if anyone has any tips for this match up?


I'm guessing with Pikachu vs Mario, you have to play more defensive?