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Hm so today I played against a friend who used Mario as his character (online) & I used Pikachu of course, I started to realize that I'd get punished really easily when ever id use SH Fair or fair in general unless he was off the stage & I was going for the kill... My grabs wasn't connecting as fast as his were either so I tried to wait it out with thunder jolts.. Then I realized that he had way more options for approaches than I do so I tried to abuse quick attack... Just wondering if anyone has any tips for this match up?
I'm guessing with Pikachu vs Mario, you have to play more defensive?
Mario is a difficult MU because he has a reliable grab game, lingering hitboxes to combat QA (i.e. n-air), a fast u-smash which even reaches behind him and powerful f-smash, as well as similar air speed albeit aerials that beat out ours most of the time. Against Mario, it's a game of hit-and-run. Try approaching in a variety of ways but also make him approach in between and see if you can figure out when he drops his guard. So yes, defensive and reactive. That's the only way to fight Mario.
Pikabunz
how safe are some of Pikas attacks on shield?
Like his Fsmash,Usmash,Fair and such?Are they even remotely safe. Like(I'm not good at understanding frame data when it comes to end lag or IASA) if Kirby and Pika were to Usmash shields, which would be more safe?
Pikachu's usmash animation is 44 frames long and first hits on frame 10 and Kirby's usmash is 47 frames long and first hits on frame 14. Subtract the first hit frame from the frame length of the move and you get the end lag or recovery frames which are 34 for Pikachu and 33 for Kirby.
Then you calculate the shield stun of each move, which you can get by using this formula; (damage/1.72)+2. Pikachu's usmash does 14% and Kirby's does 15%.
Subtract 7 from the punish frames to get the punish frames after a shield drop.
Pikachu: 24 - 7 = 17 punish frames after shield drop
Kirby: 23 - 7 = 16 punish frames after shield drop
So after all of that we see that Kirby's usmash is safer, but only by 1 frame. While having only 16 and 17 punish frames is sorta good, that's still enough time for both of them punish each other with a smash attack if they react quick enough. Pikachu's ground moves overall are all pretty safe with the exception of dsmash and dash attack. Figuring out the safety of aerials is a bit more complicated. If you want Pikachu's aerials to be safe, then you must learn to auto-cancel them. A perfectly spaced and auto-canceled fair is nearly impossible to punish as your opponent will only have 6 frames to punish it.
Interesting, that's cool to note, thanks for that, so in a way its the same for Kirby too, in the sense his ground attacks are pretty safe with a couple exceptions, sweet
I so will look back at this for reference, so again ty so much.
Will someone please explain how the bair edgeguard works? I've tried it so many times, but instead of stage spiking, it sends the opponent away. This isn't fair!
... And apologies for that bad pun.
There's no guaranteed way to make bair stage spike, but you can try to DI away from the stage while using bair so that your opponent ends up behind you which will stage spike them. But if your opponent DI's in the same direction as you, then it might not work.
Anyone got tips for playing on Battlefield? I know theoretically it's a good stage for Pika since he can ledge cancel, but if I can't do it reliably then is there any reason to pick it? It's too small to jolt camp and it's hard to play the spacing game against swordies like Marcina and lately Cloud.
I actually like the platforms for jolts. The way they wrap around platforms can really throw people off. If you're going for uthrow thunders then make sure you full hop first. This will make it so that thunder will always hit Pikachu even if there are platforms above you. Try to make use of knocking your opponent off of platforms to set up for jab locks. ESAM has a video of that on his channel somewhere.
Can anyone enlighten me on the best ways to approach? The known ways I approach are generally with a f-air, or with a thunder jolt followed by a grab. However, there are some people I play who are completely able to figure me out. I can get grabbed out of f-air pretty easily, and against certain match ups (e.g. Ness, Lucas, Mario) my jolts are ineffective because they can absorb/reflect them. Any ideas on how I can vary my approach game?
Why does Pikachu snap to ledge when you run off sometimes? About 50% of the time when I run off stage, even while holding away, Pikachu still snaps to ledge. It seems to have something to do with how close I am to the edge cause it happens on fewer occasions (still happens a fair bit) when I run from center stage or more. I don't like how I'm constantly trying to avoid it happening and I'd like to know what causes it so I can avoid doing it.
I'm thinking of picking up Pikachu as secondary for Wii Fit, so I have some simple (or not) questions.
How should you combo with Pikachu? Through his throws, or through tilts?
What are his best approach options?
What are his best & worst MUs (link to a matchup chart or thread will get you a cookie)?
I notice on For Glory that a lot of Pikachu's will use it to approach and attempt to get them in shield, is this a noobish tactic, or is it useful in ways I'm not understanding?
I'm thinking of picking up Pikachu as secondary for Wii Fit, so I have some simple (or not) questions.
How should you combo with Pikachu? Through his throws, or through tilts?
What are his best approach options?
What are his best & worst MUs (link to a matchup chart or thread will get you a cookie)?
I notice on For Glory that a lot of Pikachu's will use it to approach and attempt to get them in shield, is this a noobish tactic, or is it useful in ways I'm not understanding?
Pikachu can combo off nearly anything. Most of the time you'll want to get a grab though, luckily he has numerous tools to get grabs. In neutral, thunderjolt should be used to create opening, if your opponent shields then you grab. SH nair and fair will lead into a grab too, you'll need to fast fall the fair though. If you can get an utilt on your opponent at low to mid percents, it can either lead into another utilt or maybe a bair. There are many other combos, and learning them is key to mastering Pikachu.
Again thunderjolt is a fantastic approach opener, as well as gathering data too. FH thunderjolt will have no lag when you land, however if your opponent catches you in it then they can punish, so don't use it when they're near you. Thunderjolt is also good when recovering if you're high up, throw a couple out when you're approaching the stage to cover some space.
Pikachu doesn't really have any really bad matchups. Most of them are around 50/50, so you really have to outplay them. This thread has some information, I'm not really sure if covers all matchups. Though. http://smashboards.com/threads/pikachu-matchup-directory.415575/
I don't quite understand what you mean by this, if you're talking about using Thunderjolt, then I've already covered that point.
Obviously party hat. It's completely by choice, I've seen a lot of Pikachu's use the Choice Band, and Esam uses the green bandanna, pick whichever one you like. Except for the hat and sunglasses, that one's gross.
Pika used to be my secondary back in Brawl and I enjoy him in Melee/PM too (mostly for his uair in those games) and yet even after a year of playing the game, I've hardly given Sm4sh Pika the time of day. I didn't see this in the faq and I'd rather not read through 42 pages of questions and answers but what is Pika's general gameplay strategy in Sm4sh?
I know qac was nerfed (it can only be done on soft platforms, slants and ledge cancels, yes?) but I believe qac was buffed as an attacking option? (or maybe it's always been good and I just never used it back in Brawl). Chain grabs are obviously gone. I'd imagine Tjolt is still a decent option to force approaches? I'm pretty sure Thunder was changed a bit. Pretty sure it lasted longer back in Brawl (the wall of electricity itself, not sure about the impact hitbox) and the meteor hitbox at the top is new. Uthrow to Thunder is only a mixup iirc since the uthrow can be di'd. I'm altogether not sure what purposes Pikas throws serve in this game. Uthrow has that mixup and positioning at best I'd imagine. Bthrow and fthrow seem just for positioning and I'm gonna guess dthrow is a combo throw, at least at low-mid percents. Is sh ff fair > grab still a thing? Or there was also that weird momentum thing with dtilt where you used dtilt, walk away and use another move like fsmash. Is that still in?
Sorry for all the questions. The main one is the one in the first paragraph. I just recall Brawl Pika having a lot of little techie things and most of my Pika experience comes from Brawl. Depending on how different Sm4sh Pika is, I may or may not pick him back up. Not sure if I'll main him or anything since I already have 3 characters I'm focusing on competitively but he is generally considered top 10 so there's that. At the very least, it'd be nice to be able to use him competently for fun and knowing how to use him competently would also make fighting him easier too.
I'm trying to figure out what the input difference is between jump momentum cancel thunders so you hit yourself, and b reverse thunders. the inputs seem the exact same. the timing seems the exact same..
I can do the stop forward moving momentum in air thunders really easily, but the b reverse thunders are weird..
does anybody know the input or timing or frame data or anything for how to b reverse thunder? it's weird cause I can b reverse thunder jolt 20 times in a row without messing up, but I can't figure out the b reverse thunder.
any input is appreciated, in the mean time I'll just be playing with it hoping to figure something out, thanks!
I'm trying to figure out what the input difference is between jump momentum cancel thunders so you hit yourself, and b reverse thunders. the inputs seem the exact same. the timing seems the exact same..
I can do the stop forward moving momentum in air thunders really easily, but the b reverse thunders are weird..
does anybody know the input or timing or frame data or anything for how to b reverse thunder? it's weird cause I can b reverse thunder jolt 20 times in a row without messing up, but I can't figure out the b reverse thunder.
any input is appreciated, in the mean time I'll just be playing with it hoping to figure something out, thanks!
okay so even tho I asked this, I figured it out. the input window is frame 1-3 after thunder. you need to go at least 90 degrees on the control stick in the opposite direction.
referring to the angels like the hours on a clock, if you use down b at 7:30 angle you need to go to 4:30~12:01 to b reverse.
If you down b at an angle of 6:00 you need to go 3:00~12:01.
cool this means b reversing is actually pretty easy and the inputs aren't precis whatsoever
I'm thinking of picking up Pikachu as secondary for Wii Fit, so I have some simple (or not) questions.
How should you combo with Pikachu? Through his throws, or through tilts?
What are his best approach options?
What are his best & worst MUs (link to a matchup chart or thread will get you a cookie)?
I notice on For Glory that a lot of Pikachu's will use it to approach and attempt to get them in shield, is this a noobish tactic, or is it useful in ways I'm not understanding?
Mario, Luigi and MK are MUs I'd say are the more iffy ones or it loses to them. Would also say it loses to Sheik, but it's like, -1. It's still bearable.
Also Luigi is annoying because he negates Pika's combos with f3 NAir, and generally is the one doing more combos in the MU. It would not hurt to try playing campy on stages like Smashville and Battlefield; you can take advantage of the latter with QACs on platforms to continue your campy game.
Just be aware of Cyclone gimps; I think Thunder can break through the move though.
Not really. If you use your c-stick for aerials, tap jump works pretty nicely with it. If you don't use your c-stick for that, tap jump off is probably better. Honestly, it all comes down to preference. You just have to practice different things more depending on what you choose.
Not really. If you use your c-stick for aerials, tap jump works pretty nicely with it. If you don't use your c-stick for that, tap jump off is probably better. Honestly, it all comes down to preference. You just have to practice different things more depending on what you choose.
Well everytime I would jump with pikachu (With X) when I would try to go to the second jump, I usually realized that it was already used since I pressed up to do the upair so it wasted my jump and I wouldn't be able to combo into back air or anything no matter if I used the stick or A.. That doesn't happen for you? I mean, I can't figure out any other way to get the back air other than using the second jump and I can do that just barely.. I was watching Esam and Nakat and they look like they use double jump a lot to get into their next Aerial attacks.
Well everytime I would jump with pikachu (With X) when I would try to go to the second jump, I usually realized that it was already used since I pressed up to do the upair so it wasted my jump and I wouldn't be able to combo into back air or anything no matter if I used the stick or A.. That doesn't happen for you? I mean, I can't figure out any other way to get the back air other than using the second jump and I can do that just barely.. I was watching Esam and Nakat and they look like they use double jump a lot to get into their next Aerial attacks.
You either need to stop holding up all the way when you uair with "A" or stop holding up at all when you use the c-stick for uair. Alternatively you can just turn off tap jump.
Well everytime I would jump with pikachu (With X) when I would try to go to the second jump, I usually realized that it was already used since I pressed up to do the upair so it wasted my jump and I wouldn't be able to combo into back air or anything no matter if I used the stick or A.. That doesn't happen for you? I mean, I can't figure out any other way to get the back air other than using the second jump and I can do that just barely.. I was watching Esam and Nakat and they look like they use double jump a lot to get into their next Aerial attacks.
No, it has not happened to me. As Pikabunz said, if you choose to use tap jump + c-stick aerials, make sure you are not holding up with the control stick while using the c-stick.
And you definitely should consider switching to Tap Jump Off as well. Each one has its pros and cons; we actually had a thread about this topic. Take a look yourself and see which mode best complements your strengths and weaknesses: Tap Jump On:
Higher degree of control (in terms of out of shield actions)
Easier to transition from jumping to quick attack
Easier to repeatedly QALC or QAC on moving platforms (very situational)
Full hop up air and rising up air combos feel easier/more natural
Impossible to accidentally turn and jump rather than jump with backwards momentum
Access to double-sticking
No Tap Jump:
Easier to perform up tilt/move shield
The up-direction has less functions (no full hops or short hops)
Easier up air while falling and short hop up air
Easier to jump with maximum left/right momentum
Impossible to accidentally jump before QA, which can mess with positioning slightly
Try both for a while in Training Mode and see how you fare.
Why does Pikachu snap to ledge when you run off sometimes? About 50% of the time when I run off stage, even while holding away, Pikachu still snaps to ledge. It seems to have something to do with how close I am to the edge cause it happens on fewer occasions (still happens a fair bit) when I run from center stage or more. I don't like how I'm constantly trying to avoid it happening and I'd like to know what causes it so I can avoid doing it.
So I had a random thought late at night and checking the frame data suggests it *might* actually work, but I'm coming here to post the idea and see what people think.
So we [should] all know by now about Sheik's amazing 50/50 with dthrow at high percents. Yes, it stops working if we reach like 170%, but let's focus on that critical zone of about 110% to 140% [give or take, rage dependent and stage dependent], where she has a frame 5 uair and a frame 36 Vanish. As we all [hopefully] know, immediate uair loses only to airdodging almost instantly [too fast to react for the most part, although sometimes you can rely on cues like an immediate double jump to try to time an airdodge], and the threat of uair killing is usually high, while Vanish loses to a jump away OR a delayed airdodge, but will usually kill you for immediately or almost immediately airdodging [you can try re-airdodging, but the timing is such for Sheik that hitting the not-very-large 8-frame window happens quite consistently].
However, an option I've never seen people try is Thunder. For those who don't know, the cloud spawns frame 2, meaning the bolt WILL come down if Pikachu does Thunder for more than 1 frame. However, the kicker is that Thunder is invincible frames 34-44. What does this mean?
If stuff works the way I *hope* it does [haven't tested yet, either with someone or in tournament]:
- Sheik dthrows us
- We thunder
- They either uair or Vanish
- If they uair, Thunder will *hopefully* interrupt the uair, saving us from the part with the KB (the final hit), and also launch her upwards [which might actually KO her if she's at high enough percents, but certainly leaves her in an undesirable position]
- If they Vanish, the Thunder hits us, and because we have a 10-frame window to protect ourselves for 3-frames [34-44 vs 36-38 for Vanish], there's a decent chance [given how the timing hopefully works out] that we just don't get hit with Vanish because the Thunder's invincibility protects us.
NOW, this DOES lose to a delayed uair [I think, more on that below] or someone reading the Thunder and punishing it (I've often nair'd out of it and been told it ends deceptively early, but that endlag exists], but even then, we'll have fallen some distance (probably) due to Thunder not hitting Pikachu for a little over half a second, which means we're further from the blastzone, extending how long we live against uair, and we also have a nice, powerful hitbox covering us for a few frames that make the punish a bit riskier than they'd like.
I'm not saying this works, but the numbers suggest it is very promising. Any input or feedback is appreciated - I'm probably going to test this myself, but someone confirming this works would be fantastic, and someone explaining why this fails would be appreciated [disappointing, but appreciated]. If it does work, then it adds a whole new element to the 50/50 that beats any immediate options, and also serves as a way to make uair kill later [via falling farther before getting hit with uair], meaning the 50/50 should work for a shorter time period...
Or, depending on how easy it is to punish Thunder assuming she does a full hop after us, not at all? The dream is that she can't punish a Thunder without delaying her jump for a noticeable time period, and if that happens, it means dthrow uair simply wouldn't work, because you either jump away if she doesn't follow you, or use down+b if she does... though note that platforms should make punishing such a Thunder considerably easier...
I expect the counter to this, even on FD, to be simply fullhopping and delaying a Vanish to beat the Thunder, but I'm not sure if that will be effective or even very possible, since Thunder finishes on frame 75 but the hitbox is present frame 36, and she's not invulnerable on the start of Vanish, meaning she has to pretty tightly time and space Vanish to hit us after Thunder, and aerial Thunder pops us up.... and if it pops us high enough such that she can't use Vanish (effectively or at all), she has to massively delay uair, which would mean on FD, without platform support, not jumping in the first place? Something tells me that's not how it'll work out (fullhop fastfall fullhop again?), but... I can hope!
So I had a random thought late at night and checking the frame data suggests it *might* actually work, but I'm coming here to post the idea and see what people think.
So we [should] all know by now about Sheik's amazing 50/50 with dthrow at high percents. Yes, it stops working if we reach like 170%, but let's focus on that critical zone of about 110% to 140% [give or take, rage dependent and stage dependent], where she has a frame 5 uair and a frame 36 Vanish. As we all [hopefully] know, immediate uair loses only to airdodging almost instantly [too fast to react for the most part, although sometimes you can rely on cues like an immediate double jump to try to time an airdodge], and the threat of uair killing is usually high, while Vanish loses to a jump away OR a delayed airdodge, but will usually kill you for immediately or almost immediately airdodging [you can try re-airdodging, but the timing is such for Sheik that hitting the not-very-large 8-frame window happens quite consistently].
However, an option I've never seen people try is Thunder. For those who don't know, the cloud spawns frame 2, meaning the bolt WILL come down if Pikachu does Thunder for more than 1 frame. However, the kicker is that Thunder is invincible frames 34-44. What does this mean?
If stuff works the way I *hope* it does [haven't tested yet, either with someone or in tournament]:
- Sheik dthrows us
- We thunder
- They either uair or Vanish
- If they uair, Thunder will *hopefully* interrupt the uair, saving us from the part with the KB (the final hit), and also launch her upwards [which might actually KO her if she's at high enough percents, but certainly leaves her in an undesirable position]
- If they Vanish, the Thunder hits us, and because we have a 10-frame window to protect ourselves for 3-frames [34-44 vs 36-38 for Vanish], there's a decent chance [given how the timing hopefully works out] that we just don't get hit with Vanish because the Thunder's invincibility protects us.
NOW, this DOES lose to a delayed uair [I think, more on that below] or someone reading the Thunder and punishing it (I've often nair'd out of it and been told it ends deceptively early, but that endlag exists], but even then, we'll have fallen some distance (probably) due to Thunder not hitting Pikachu for a little over half a second, which means we're further from the blastzone, extending how long we live against uair, and we also have a nice, powerful hitbox covering us for a few frames that make the punish a bit riskier than they'd like.
I'm not saying this works, but the numbers suggest it is very promising. Any input or feedback is appreciated - I'm probably going to test this myself, but someone confirming this works would be fantastic, and someone explaining why this fails would be appreciated [disappointing, but appreciated]. If it does work, then it adds a whole new element to the 50/50 that beats any immediate options, and also serves as a way to make uair kill later [via falling farther before getting hit with uair], meaning the 50/50 should work for a shorter time period...
Or, depending on how easy it is to punish Thunder assuming she does a full hop after us, not at all? The dream is that she can't punish a Thunder without delaying her jump for a noticeable time period, and if that happens, it means dthrow uair simply wouldn't work, because you either jump away if she doesn't follow you, or use down+b if she does... though note that platforms should make punishing such a Thunder considerably easier...
I expect the counter to this, even on FD, to be simply fullhopping and delaying a Vanish to beat the Thunder, but I'm not sure if that will be effective or even very possible, since Thunder finishes on frame 75 but the hitbox is present frame 36, and she's not invulnerable on the start of Vanish, meaning she has to pretty tightly time and space Vanish to hit us after Thunder, and aerial Thunder pops us up.... and if it pops us high enough such that she can't use Vanish (effectively or at all), she has to massively delay uair, which would mean on FD, without platform support, not jumping in the first place? Something tells me that's not how it'll work out (fullhop fastfall fullhop again?), but... I can hope!
Is there an easier way to do RAR Thunder on the left? Like I know it's + , but when I do it I end up missing the Thunder or just doing a B-reverse Thunder.
Is there an easier way to do RAR Thunder on the left? Like I know it's + , but when I do it I end up missing the Thunder or just doing a B-reverse Thunder.
You just have to practice it more. You could be missing because you're not using full jumps. If you're getting b-reverse thunders, you need to be faster with your inputs. You could also try + > instead of +.
How the hell to people tolerate the crap that is Online Pikachu? Like, even the slightest bump in connection could mean the game misreads an input for a QA angle, and then you're just dead. Am I just being whiny?
My biggest issue with Pikachu now a days is that I can't seem to beat people who use characters like Link, Toon Link, Robin, Villager.. Pretty much people with good projectiles.. How do you approach someone who's constantly spamming them
Should you just spam B back? I mean how can I approach when they have several projectiles coming at me?
My biggest issue with Pikachu now a days is that I can't seem to beat people who use characters like Link, Toon Link, Robin, Villager.. Pretty much people with good projectiles.. How do you approach someone who's constantly spamming them
Should you just spam B back? I mean how can I approach when they have several projectiles coming at me?
Try working on power shielding projectiles. Also, walking is better than running when approaching someone who is spamming projectiles. Walking makes projectiles much easier to shield and you have more options this way.
Cloud. Pikachu's fthrow easily sets up for Cloud's finishing touch.
Try working on power shielding projectiles. Also, walking is better than running when approaching someone who is spamming projectiles. Walking makes projectiles much easier to shield and you have more options this way.
