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Meta Pikachu Metagame Discussion

Hoenn

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How to beat diddy:
Wait 2 days
BAM! we win the MU

But seriously, maybe we should wait and see what happens with the balance patch before we try super hard at the diddy mu
I think we should focus on weird mid tier matchups and stuff like that for the next day or 2

Not saying we should rely on the patch though, I do not think pika vs diddy is hard. I do really well against diddy, I just can never execute what I want to do and end up getting grabbed for it. I literally am the only diddy player in chicago, so everyone has diddy practice except me.
My only diddy practice is JJrockets and he has a brother that mains pikachu, so I have experience with a diddy that knows the mu, but only like once every 2 weeks for like an hour, but at least it is practice with a top player, nonetheless
 

Kenrawr

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Grabs, juggle, DI dthrow properly (followed by you jumping - try not to airdodge), throw out random qa's over his grounded banana sometimes (he thinks he's safe, heh heh)

Get him off stage if you can. Try to force him to recover low and run off bair/fair/nair w/e. I don't recommend thunder. Too slow and less guaranteed than a well place aerial.
 

RadioactiveMoth

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Happy April 15th! I'm here to say Pikachu got no (known) buffs or nerfs, so we can start making matchups again!
 

M15t3R E

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Make sure to DI up and away from Diddy when he does his inevitable "hoo-hah" throw combo. Also be careful how you approach because Diddy's airgame has surprising range and speed.
 

RadioactiveMoth

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Make sure to DI up and away from Diddy when he does his inevitable "hoo-hah" throw combo. Also be careful how you approach because Diddy's airgame has surprising range and speed.
Using T-Jolt is a good tool for him since popgun isn't strong enough to stop it, so he can't approach as well. Getting his to approach by air can be risky though, since his air game is really good like ours.
 

isaiah :)

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so i wonder how the diddy pika MU works now considering the one combo that gets an early ( and in pikas case REALLY) early stock is easier to DI out of and less of a kill combo.
 

RadioactiveMoth

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so i wonder how the diddy pika MU works now considering the one combo that gets an early ( and in pikas case REALLY) early stock is easier to DI out of and less of a kill combo.
If I can find a good Diddy player I'll try it out myself and see how easy/hard it is to hoo hah and such.
 

[FBC] ESAM

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Quick overview of what Match-ups are in my opinion. I will do more detailed analysis when I get the time.

Bowser: 65-35 Pika
Bowser Jr: 6-4 Pika
Captain Falcon: 6-4 Pika
Charizard: 65:35 PIka
Dark Pit: 55:45 Pika, maybe 60-40
Diddy Kong: 5-5 (Pre-patch) 6-4 or worse (Post patch) Pika
Donkey Kong: 6-4 Pika
Dr. Mario: 6-4 Pika
Duck Hunt: 65-35 Pika (Poor puppy)
Falco: 6-4 Pika
Fox: 55-45 Pika (Maybe worse, not a lot of exp in this MU)
Ganon: 7-3 Pika
Greninja: 6-4 Pika
Ike: 65-35 Pika
Jigglypuff: 7-3 Pika
King Dedede: 55-45 Pika
Kirby: 6-4 Pika
Link: 65-35 Pika
Little Mac: 6-4 Pika
Lucario: 6-4 Pika
Lucina: 6-4 Pika
Luigi: 5-5 or 55:45 Pika (Don't really understand this character yet)
Mario: 55:45 Pika
Marth: 6-4 Pika
Megaman: 55:45 PIka
Metaknight: 6-4 or 65-35 Pika
Mewtwo: 65-35 Pika
No information on any mii fighters
Mr. Game and Watch: 6-4 Pika
Ness: 55-45 Pika
Olimar: 55-45 Pika
Pac-Man- 6-4 Pika
Palutena: 65-35 (no customs) 55:45 (customs) Pika
Peach: 55:45 Pika
Pikachu: 100-0 Pika
Pit: 55:45 Pika, maybe 60-40
ROB: 65-35 Pika
Robin: 65-35 Pika
RosaLuma: 6-4 Pika
Samus: 75-25 Pika
Sheik: 5-5 (No customs) 55:45 (Customs) pika
Shulk: 6-4 Pika
Sonic: 6-4 Pika
Toon Link: 6-4 Pika
Villager: 65-35 (No customs) 55-45 (Customs) PIka
Wario: 55-45 Pika
WFT: 60-40 Pika
Yoshi: 5-5
Zelda: 65-35 Pika
ZSS: 55-45 Pika

As you can tell...I think his MU spread is ridiculous.

A general note to most MUs...Pikachu gets in REALLY easily against preeettty much everybody and has amazing damage output and pressure when he does. Most characters that rely on keep away (Like Rosaluma) can't play their normal game vs Pika, which helps a lot. In terms of boxing, pika is top 2 in the game and creates a bunch of openings and combos out of practically nothing.

Pikachu can edgeguard nearly every character in the game to a fairly effective level, which is amazing since he gets in, combos people across the stage, and then kill them.

Aggressive zoning is pretty annoying for Pika to deal with, which si why Sheik and Yoshi are the 2 most difficult MUs for pika IMO. However, when Pikachu does get in he can do a lot of damage to both of these characters and can manipulate the stage to his advantage really well.

With customs, Pikachu generally gains a +.05 at least in every MU (Besides specified) since HSB is STUPIDLY AMAZING
 

Kaladin

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Quick overview of what Match-ups are in my opinion. I will do more detailed analysis when I get the time.

Bowser: 65-35 Pika
Bowser Jr: 6-4 Pika
Captain Falcon: 6-4 Pika
Charizard: 65:35 PIka
Dark Pit: 55:45 Pika, maybe 60-40
Diddy Kong: 5-5 (Pre-patch) 6-4 or worse (Post patch) Pika
Donkey Kong: 6-4 Pika
Dr. Mario: 6-4 Pika
Duck Hunt: 65-35 Pika (Poor puppy)
Falco: 6-4 Pika
Fox: 55-45 Pika (Maybe worse, not a lot of exp in this MU)
Ganon: 7-3 Pika
Greninja: 6-4 Pika
Ike: 65-35 Pika
Jigglypuff: 7-3 Pika
King Dedede: 55-45 Pika
Kirby: 6-4 Pika
Link: 65-35 Pika
Little Mac: 6-4 Pika
Lucario: 6-4 Pika
Lucina: 6-4 Pika
Luigi: 5-5 or 55:45 Pika (Don't really understand this character yet)
Mario: 55:45 Pika
Marth: 6-4 Pika
Megaman: 55:45 PIka
Metaknight: 6-4 or 65-35 Pika
Mewtwo: 65-35 Pika
No information on any mii fighters
Mr. Game and Watch: 6-4 Pika
Ness: 55-45 Pika
Olimar: 55-45 Pika
Pac-Man- 6-4 Pika
Palutena: 65-35 (no customs) 55:45 (customs) Pika
Peach: 55:45 Pika
Pikachu: 100-0 Pika
Pit: 55:45 Pika, maybe 60-40
ROB: 65-35 Pika
Robin: 65-35 Pika
RosaLuma: 6-4 Pika
Samus: 75-25 Pika
Sheik: 5-5 (No customs) 55:45 (Customs) pika
Shulk: 6-4 Pika
Sonic: 6-4 Pika
Toon Link: 6-4 Pika
Villager: 65-35 (No customs) 55-45 (Customs) PIka
Wario: 55-45 Pika
WFT: 60-40 Pika
Yoshi: 5-5
Zelda: 65-35 Pika
ZSS: 55-45 Pika

As you can tell...I think his MU spread is ridiculous.

A general note to most MUs...Pikachu gets in REALLY easily against preeettty much everybody and has amazing damage output and pressure when he does. Most characters that rely on keep away (Like Rosaluma) can't play their normal game vs Pika, which helps a lot. In terms of boxing, pika is top 2 in the game and creates a bunch of openings and combos out of practically nothing.

Pikachu can edgeguard nearly every character in the game to a fairly effective level, which is amazing since he gets in, combos people across the stage, and then kill them.

Aggressive zoning is pretty annoying for Pika to deal with, which si why Sheik and Yoshi are the 2 most difficult MUs for pika IMO. However, when Pikachu does get in he can do a lot of damage to both of these characters and can manipulate the stage to his advantage really well.

With customs, Pikachu generally gains a +.05 at least in every MU (Besides specified) since HSB is STUPIDLY AMAZING
Assuming you're right with this MU data, does this make pika best in the game?
 

[FBC] ESAM

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I strongly believe Pika is best in the game. He might've been pre-patch but I didn't play in a notable region at the time so I couldn't prove it.
 

RadioactiveMoth

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I wouldn't call Pika the BEST, but he's definitely one of them. I generally don't think there's a definite best in Smash Bros. games, besides Meta Knight in Brawl. Some characters are stronger than most, and some are weaker than most, but most of who will win is dependent on the player's ability, so even bad characters can beat good ones.
 

Kaladin

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I wouldn't call Pika the BEST, but he's definitely one of them. I generally don't think there's a definite best in Smash Bros. games, besides Meta Knight in Brawl. Some characters are stronger than most, and some are weaker than most, but most of who will win is dependent on the player's ability, so even bad characters can beat good ones.
Yes and no. I think as time goes on, best character is likely closely related to that character's skill cap. If everyone is playing amazingly good, the character that can utilize that skill the best wins- but there are other factors. At the very least, pika is top five, just above yoshi, yes?
 

RadioactiveMoth

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Yes and no. I think as time goes on, best character is likely closely related to that character's skill cap. If everyone is playing amazingly good, the character that can utilize that skill the best wins- but there are other factors. At the very least, pika is top five, just above yoshi, yes?
I haven't fought enough good Yoshis to tell, myself. But He's definitally a great character, with good matchups.
 

Hoenn

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Mario vs pika? 55:45? pikachu's favor?

ESAM are you sure?
If so? please help! I cannot stand that matchup....

I think luigi beats pikachu though
but even if that is the case. we still have a ridiculous matchup spread
 
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I was gonna say, "Wait, Luigi in our favor? What's he smoking?" Then I saw the postbit and was like, "...Oh. Hang on."

...Seriously though. Luigi. C'mon. He kills us for free and can wall us really effectively. What do you do in this matchup, man?
 

[FBC] ESAM

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*cracks fingers*

So I'ma talk about the closest ones first. Will be editing as i go


LUIGI

Quick synopsis: Both combo the hell out of each other. Luigi kills better on stage, Pikachu edgegaurds really easily. Pikachu can play VERY evasive and avoid luigi fairly easily. Luigi cannot punish good QAs. Careful approaches help a lot because of luigi's no traction. Pika controls the entire pace of the game

Ground-Ground: Pikachu DEFINITELY wins this part of the MU. Luigi NEEDS to powershield to get in, whereas we can just kinda...do what we want. If Luigi is on the ground just dtilt because he will slide back and not be able to punish. Any hit immediately causes pressure due to luigi NOT wanting to go offstage vs Pikachu. Also, d-tilt trip combos into QA which leads to everything else. Luigi's grab game is scary, but as long as you control space correctly you should be fine.

Ground-Air: Most rising aerials will hit luigi, such as rising fair or instant dair. Both of these lead into long long combos and luigi typically has to have aggressive ground move spacing in order to hit you like f-tilt or utilt. However, this is REALLY bad in the ground-ground game so if you frustrate them with that it'll be hard for them to hit you.

In terms of luigi in the air, anti air up-angled f-tilt is amazing vs luigi. It might trade with nair, but he will probably not be able to combo out of this regardless. Luigi is going to want to SH A LOT in this MU to overcome our ground game so we will have a lot of opportunity to anti-air him period. Also, if you expect a commit to a landing aerial, you can pivot backwards F-smash (OR HSB with customs on) to get big punishes and land kills.

Air:Air - Pikachu really wants to be under luigi if in the air because it is really easy to bait out nairs and air dodges. Being anywhere else and pika essentially just wants to get back to the ground because IF YOU COULDN'T TELL BEING ON THE GROUND IS AMAZING IN THIS MATCHUP

Off-stage: lelelelelelelelelelelele. Force him low with just your presence and they get scared. If they are already low, t-jolt and run off fair/bair. He can't really edgeguard you because QA 2gud. ALso if you get the bair FF multihit spike when he doesn't have a jump he dies regardless. yaaaay

Killing: Luigi obviously has more general kill potential, but it is pretty easy to push luigi off the stage. Also, pika forces characters to air dodge or throw out moves defensively so it's pretty easy to F-smash/U-smash that.

Yoshi:

Quick Synopsis: Yoshi can aggressively zone INCREDIBLY well and make it really hard for pikachu to get in. Pika's lack of range is obvious in this MU as we have no real way to poke out yoshi. Pikachu gets a lot when he does get a hit though, and he can get a lot of damage that way. Yoshi has no real way to push in if Pika has a lead, though, and Pika can run away from him really well. THis leads to a lot of punishes, %s, and maybe kill.

Ground-Ground: This situation never happens. Yoshi is essentially always in the air or jabbing after an autocancel Fair. Even so, if this was actually a thing, Pikachu probably wins. D-tilt > Jab and all yoshi really has on the ground is Jab and...dash grab. However, yoshi's grabs you can react to and punish REALLY hard. As in every MU, pika gets a lot off of his d-tilt so you can definitely capitalize on it. Yoshi's jab is obnoxiously good though, so be careful.

Air-Ground: When Pikachu is in the air he actually does really well. Fair puts a lot of pressure onto yoshi, as does dair. Getting into yoshi's space is essential in this MU so controling space with fair -> QA, it is a pretty reliable way to get in. Pikachu's amazing aerial mobility help get around eggs and being above YOshi isn't the end of the world because all he has is essentially uair which is pretty predictable. You can shoot T-jolts from certain spacing and begin a lot of your control which is how you beat Yoshi

When Yoshi is in the air and pika is in the ground, Pika essentially has to shield. You can't really beat out his fair unless you like SUPER PREEMPTIVE READ RUN U-SMASH pika can't really do anything. However, you can take up space after you shield fair which pushes yoshi back and typically forces him to retreat or jab (Which you can trade with). Typically in this situation I would rather be jumping than stuck on the ground

Air:Air - Pretty even. Pikachu gets a lot off of a single hit but Yoshi's hitboxes are more safe and you can also control space with T-jolts. Yoshi's aerials are better, but they don't really strong into each other well at all. Air dodging against yoshi's aerials is really good since they aren't really that fast in terms of cooldown. Pika's hitboxes are more lingering or very quick, so air dodging as yoshi doesn't do as much.
 
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A10theHero

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*Sees @ [FBC] ESAM [FBC] ESAM posting* *Faints* Watching you play made me want to try playing competitively

Anyways, fanboyism aside, I can confirm that Pikachu's moves are pretty much unchanged. It seems like the added frames on the ledge were the only change in this patch. However, I still have to test the custom moves. Heavy Skull Bash seems unchanged to me (and the momentum glitch is still there :D), but I need to go through the other customs still. Has anyone else looked at the customs yet?
Edit: Oops, didn't see the patch notes thread.

Also, has anyone gotten a chance to play against Mewtwo yet? What's the matchup like?
 
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[FBC] ESAM

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This is a MU thread, please keep it relevant to match-ups. There is a separate thread for 1.06 change stuff
 

A2ZOMG

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Fk, I should have known there was a catch to Diddy, Sheik, and Sonic getting nerfed. ESAM ur gonna make me salty. Hate Pikachu in this game.
 
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Soul.

 
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Also, has anyone gotten a chance to play against Mewtwo yet? What's the matchup like?
From what I have seen... tall and light. FAir laughs at Mewtwo. QA laughs even more. If you miss the Thunder (which is kinda stupid) Mewtwo can punish you with fsmash or something. Shadow Ball is pretty good so I'd watch out for that.
Still too early to say. I don't want to say "Pikachu wins the MU because blah blah blah" and then it's all false info
 
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JayWon

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Dang. I have a hard time against Rob (and for some reason samus) but every Pikachu main so far has been saying Rob match up is easy :/

And lol poor Diddy. The tables have turned.
 
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[FBC] ESAM

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What MUs do you guys want be to write about specifically? I just did Yoshi and Luigi, which are IMO pika's 2 hardest MUs. Any others?
 

A10theHero

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This is a MU thread, please keep it relevant to match-ups. There is a separate thread for 1.06 change stuff
</3
I know that now. The patch was mentioned here earlier, so I brought it up here. And then I saw the thread that was created for it afterwards.

From what I have seen... tall and light. FAir laughs at Mewtwo. QA laughs even more. If you miss the Thunder (which is kinda stupid) Mewtwo can punish you with fsmash or something. Shadow Ball is pretty good so I'd watch out for that.
Still too early to say. I don't want to say "Pikachu wins the MU because blah blah blah" and then it's all false info
Hmm, I see what you mean. I actually just went onto For Glory and I fought a bunch of Mewtwo. Whatever you were saying sounds pretty accurate (though it's For Glory, so it doesn't say much about a matchup). And just to add something, Confusion can reflect Thunder back at Pikachu, so jumping and using Thunder might be good (when he's above you and you're onstage).
 

Kenrawr

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Ness pls.

And in regards to combo'ing luigi: how exactly? I always get naired. Are my combos just not tight enough?
 
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Soul.

 
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Kinda dumb on my part but whatever. Robin pls
Hmm, I see what you mean. I actually just went onto For Glory and I fought a bunch of Mewtwo. Whatever you were saying sounds pretty accurate (though it's For Glory, so it doesn't say much about a matchup). And just to add something, Confusion can reflect Thunder back at Pikachu, so jumping and using Thunder might be good (when he's above you and you're onstage).
FG doesn't really mean anything but there is no good Mewtwo as of right now. I say we should let its metagame develop a bit more.
 
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A10theHero

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Kinda dumb but whatever. Robin pls

FG doesn't really mean anything but there is no good Mewtwo as of right now. I say we should let its metagame develop a bit more.
Yeah, I know. I mentioned that just to warn anyone about using projectiles against Mewtwo. Any player who is at least competent with that character can use it.
 

JayWon

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I recently played a really good Ness player that spaced with N-air/F-air (he practically just spammed it and never approached) I couldn't get in. And holy jesus his U-air is so freaking strong. If he airdodges any of my aerials when I try to follow up he just immediately punishes with an U-air/B-air. Scary. :(
But yeah I know he's gimpable, that's fine. but I struggle on the neutral.

Any help short advice would be nice.


Edit:
Ness's aerials are freaking insane!
For comparison purposes (data from pre 1.0.6):

Ness:
N-air 7-11%
F-air 1%, 1%, 4%
B-air 8-15%
U-air 13%
D-air 10-12%

Ike:
N-air 9% (clean), 6% (late)
F-air 12%
B-air 14%
U-air 11%
D-air 15%

Charizard:
N-air 10% (flame), 7% (tail)
F-air 11% (early, clean arm), 12% (clean tip)
B-air 10% (body), 13% (tail), 15% (flame)
U-air 13%
D-air 14% (clean), 8% (late)

Donkey Kong
N-air 11% (clean), 8% (late)
F-air 16%, 15% (sweetspot), 13% (sourspot)
B-air 13% (clean), 8% (late)
U-air 13%
D-air 16% (sweetspot) 13% (sourspot)

Marth
N-air 2%/3% (hit 1), 6%/8% (hit 2)
F-air 7%/10%
B-air 9%/12%
U-air 9%/12%
D-air 11% (blade), 13% (non-meteor tip), 14% (meteor tip)

They're so freaking fast and go on par if not better than heavy hitters.
 
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[FBC] ESAM

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Ness pls.

And in regards to combo'ing luigi: how exactly? I always get naired. Are my combos just not tight enough?
Just do it faster. Notice when he will get out and then just bait him to nair and like regrab him or something.



Ness
Synopsis: Ness is pretty annoying if he is in the air and facing you. That's about it. Grabs are good for him as well, but Pika's grabs are equally as good. Pika excels in EVERY other aspect of the MU, especially edgeguarding.

Ground-Ground: IMO pikachu's favor. Both of us get a lot off of a grab, but Pika d-tilt >>>>>>>>>>>. Dtilt starts a lot of pressure. If you d-tilt and he attempts to stay out of range and PKFire, you can shield. Be cognizant of pk-fire spacing because you will take a LOT of damage if it hits. However, you can punish every PK Fire unless you suck. QA breaks the neutral game REALLY hard and it starts like EVERYTHING

Ground-Air: Honestly I think Pikachu wins both incarnates of this. When Ness is in the air all you have to do is shield and he can't really do much. You can punish all of his aerials on shield which is super free and he doesn't really have a lot of mix-ups. You can also run under him and get uairs that would beat out most aerials besides nair. You can be patient and it's pretty easy. Ness doesn't really get a lot when he's on the ground so he will want to go in the air a lot, and it isn't really problematic.

When Pika is in the air, you can essentially maneuver around ness really well. Landing fair and bair are pretty devastating. Nair is also really good rising as is fair, but Ness can punish that so you have to do risk/reward. A lot of cross-ups are really good as it makes it harder to punish for Ness.

Offstage Pika >> Ness. T-jolt manipulation, bair fastfalls, fair to keep them off, thunder if they go high or don't have a DJ. All the good stuff.
 

RadioactiveMoth

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Thanks. If nobody suggests any other matchups I'll go ahead and ask for another one: villager.
Villager is an interesting one. I think a good way to start would might be to do the usual tjolt approach and get them close, then kepp on after them. Don't stop using quick moves like nair, uair, cancelled fair, ftilt, and dtilt trying to get in a hit. Keep that up until you can get enough damage, then go for a good grab, thunder, or smash to finish them off.

Villager's approach isn't that good. They can side be then fair, but Pika can jump over that and either land and go for a grab, tjolt and go for a grab, possible jump over them and thunder (probably not unless they had a bad read, or if you're trying to mix it up to be less predictable), or QA into them. Pocketing things probably wont be that useful unless they get thunder, since you can deal with a tjolt by simple using another tjolt, or just crouching and crawling under it. He's also easy to gimp with tjolt if he's under the stage. I think the matchup is at least somewhat in our favor, but I don't see too many villagers.
 

RadioactiveMoth

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I think Pikachu MIGHT have a slightly bad matchup against Mewtwo. He can deal with our tjolt well if he reflects it or cancels it with his shadow ball. He also has good mobility so we don't have as much edge against him with that. He also has good KO options, can recover alright. He can ALSO reflect thunder into you if you miss an upthrow to thunder. Overall it's not too bad but I don't think there's a lot we have over him so it's just a 50:5 to 45:55 matchup.
 

[FBC] ESAM

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Mewtwo gets hard bodied by rushdown characters and pikachu is the best rushdown character LMAO
 

[FBC] ESAM

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Pika?
I'm not sure you know how I act LMAO if you don't want help I don't have to give it to y'all, and considering the state of these boards I"m SURE you would prefer me help.

Pikachu's game doesn't/shouldn't revolve around his projectiles, they are mostly for space control more than an overall game plan. Most people that have been experimenting with m2 do not enjoy playing rushdown characters, THEY have said that. Also Pika kinda combos M2 for free because of his size, his weight, and his floatiness.
 
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