Meta Pikachu Metagame Discussion

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

That triple comment, baby.
Anyways how badly does Villager get shreked by Pika?

Uhhhhh.... well the fact you can pocket both projectiles will be significant. you can pretty easily outcamp Pikachu.
hmm. but getting the KO move? Idk, what do most villagers tend to use to KO?

 

[Antonykun]

You can pretty easily outcamp Pikachu.

I have a feeling this is incorrect. Pikachu's speed and height means he can bypass most of villager's camping (besides Villager's camping is really bad, relatively speaking to other campers)

Villager gets her kills with aerials, edguarding, and Smash attacks with the stray Timber and d-tilt

Villager hates everyone with a good ground game that also are difficult to gimp. Pikachu fits those descriptions very well

 

[NairWizard]

Fixed

How does pikachu really out range Kirby? Kirbys ariels all pretty much have more range, I almost swear one time where my Dtilt hit Pikachu while his didnt hit mine Ftilt, I don't even have to mention, Utilt, I think Pikachu hits slightly more infront of him, but thats just me, but Kirby's is faster, same with all of is tilts.

Pikachu's d-tilt and up-tilt outrange everything Kirby has on the ground.

In the air, up-air is disjointed and what can Kirby do about that? his n-air and d-air are awful for that, and Stone is too laggy. All of Kirby's aerials except for n-air and b-air have low ending lag but mediocre startup lag. If Kirby jumps at Pikachu and Pikachu jumps at Kirby, Pikachu's aerials will come out first, and Pikachu will win the exchange.

In addition to winning on the ground and in the air, Pikachu is way faster on the ground, and can get out of bad situations with Quick Attack. How does Kirby have an even matchup here? Pikachu wins in every way possible.

Pikachu is only slightly lighter then Kirby, so he dies almost as easily. Pikachu has lag in his smash attacks which are easy to defend against and are very punishable, which Kirby is good at. You only mentioned Pikachu's Usmash as a killing move...... Even that's expected to come when your at high percents and has limited range that doesn't make its very reliable.

lol, and how does Kirby kill? His own smashes are also incredibly laggy (f-smash is not good at all, no; if you are landing it is only because of For Glory lag or a hard read), you will never hit Pikachu offstage with Kirby because Kirby is too slow to hit through Quick Attack, and up-throw doesn't kill as early in this game as it did in Brawl.

Pikachu has no trouble killing Kirby because of Kirby's bad airspeed. Kirby has to land sometime. If he airdodges or uses an aerial too quickly, that's up-smash bait. What does Kirby do? He's too slow to catch Pikachu while Pikachu is landing; Pikachu can just Quick Attack out of the bad scenario and not get KOed.

Peach spaces really well and almost forces Pikachu to approach when she floats over TJ.
Peach has the moves for close combat as well and a fantastic edge guarding game.
60:40 In peach's favor.

"a fantastic edgeguarding game" -- except that we're talking about Pikachu. Quick Attack is not easy for Peach to edgeguard at all. There are too many angles. We've been over this. Her edgeplay is not an advantage for her in this MU. You should learn to consider both sides of a coin. Earlier in this thread you said that it's bad for Pikachu if he goes out to edgeguard and misses a b-air, but it's even worse for Peach if she goes out to edgeguard and misses, because she's floaty and slow in the air.

What does Peach do in response to SH f-air? She spaces her own, slow, floaty f-airs back? What does Peach do vs. reverse up-tilt? How does Peach catch up to Pikachu? The lack of matchup experience here is glaringly obvious.

"forces Pikachu to approach when she floats over TJ"
You act as though if Pikachu's tjolts don't work, then he has to approach. Why would that be the case? Why can't he just crouch and wait for Peach to approach? Turnips? That's laughable; you can z-catch Turnips with ease.

Pikachu doesn't have to approach Peach. "Not being able to camp with tjolt" doesn't mean that you are suddenly forced to rush in and die.

You don't need huge running speed to actually punish all the time thought. Their running speed(I think) are just plain average which is still decent, but nothing special.

How does Peach punish a whiffed b-air into an up-tilt from midrange? Answer: she doesn't (Turnip is too slow; clashes with up-tilt) You do need good running speed to punish characters with fast aerials who are running around and spacing. Her dash attack makes up for her mediocre ground game because it kills, but even that's not until like 120%?


Your assessments so far have been biased and shallow. You say "What does Pikachu do when someone is below him," but the real question is what does Kirby do when someone is below him? His multiple jumps don't help because his airspeed is bad, and Stone is so slow that it's actually useless. You say Peach's edgeguarding is great when Pikachu's is obviously better. When people correct you, you say "But it's predictable" and leave it at that. What do you think you're trying to accomplish? What is the purpose of your posting here? You're clearly not trying to advance Pikachu's metagame or the metagames of other characters against Pikachu. All you're doing is posting obvious statements like "Peach has good edgeguarding" (we all already know that) and your ratios and asking everyone to convince you that you're wrong. It's also obvious that you don't have any tournament experience with these matchups, and while I won't discredit you on that basis alone, by posting what you're posting you're not being helpful or contributing to the discussion at all.

Instead of that, why not post about what Pikachu can do in his hard matchups in order to win them (for example, Sheik), or what other characters who lose to Pikachu can do to win (like ROB)? Why not be actually constructive?

I believe in educating others, but there are limits. This will be my last post on the subject.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Pikachu's d-tilt and up-tilt outrange everything Kirby has on the ground.

In the air, up-air is disjointed and what can Kirby do about that? his n-air and d-air are awful for that, and Stone is too laggy. All of Kirby's aerials except for n-air and b-air have low ending lag but mediocre startup lag. If Kirby jumps at Pikachu and Pikachu jumps at Kirby, Pikachu's aerials will come out first, and Pikachu will win the exchange.

In addition to winning on the ground and in the air, Pikachu is way faster on the ground, and can get out of bad situations with Quick Attack. How does Kirby have an even matchup here? Pikachu wins in every way possible.



lol, and how does Kirby kill? His own smashes are also incredibly laggy (f-smash is not good at all, no; if you are landing it is only because of For Glory lag or a hard read), you will never hit Pikachu offstage with Kirby because Kirby is too slow to hit through Quick Attack, and up-throw doesn't kill as early in this game as it did in Brawl.

Pikachu has no trouble killing Kirby because of Kirby's bad airspeed. Kirby has to land sometime. If he airdodges or uses an aerial too quickly, that's up-smash bait. What does Kirby do? He's too slow to catch Pikachu while Pikachu is landing; Pikachu can just Quick Attack out of the bad scenario and not get KOed.



"a fantastic edgeguarding game" -- except that we're talking about Pikachu. Quick Attack is not easy for Peach to edgeguard at all. There are too many angles. We've been over this. Her edgeplay is not an advantage for her in this MU. You should learn to consider both sides of a coin. Earlier in this thread you said that it's bad for Pikachu if he goes out to edgeguard and misses a b-air, but it's even worse for Peach if she goes out to edgeguard and misses, because she's floaty and slow in the air.

What does Peach do in response to SH f-air? She spaces her own, slow, floaty f-airs back? What does Peach do vs. reverse up-tilt? How does Peach catch up to Pikachu? The lack of matchup experience here is glaringly obvious.

"forces Pikachu to approach when she floats over TJ"
You act as though if Pikachu's tjolts don't work, then he has to approach. Why would that be the case? Why can't he just crouch and wait for Peach to approach? Turnips? That's laughable; you can z-catch Turnips with ease.

Pikachu doesn't have to approach Peach. "Not being able to camp with tjolt" doesn't mean that you are suddenly forced to rush in and die.



How does Peach punish a whiffed b-air into an up-tilt from midrange? Answer: she doesn't (Turnip is too slow; clashes with up-tilt) You do need good running speed to punish characters with fast aerials who are running around and spacing. Her dash attack makes up for her mediocre ground game because it kills, but even that's not until like 120%?


Your assessments so far have been biased and shallow. You say "What does Pikachu do when someone is below him," but the real question is what does Kirby do when someone is below him? His multiple jumps don't help because his airspeed is bad, and Stone is so slow that it's actually useless. You say Peach's edgeguarding is great when Pikachu's is obviously better. When people correct you, you say "But it's predictable" and leave it at that. What do you think you're trying to accomplish? What is the purpose of your posting here? You're clearly not trying to advance Pikachu's metagame or the metagames of other characters against Pikachu. All you're doing is posting obvious statements like "Peach has good edgeguarding" (we all already know that) and your ratios and asking everyone to convince you that you're wrong. It's also obvious that you don't have any tournament experience with these matchups, and while I won't discredit you on that basis alone, by posting what you're posting you're not being helpful or contributing to the discussion at all.

Instead of that, why not post about what Pikachu can do in his hard matchups in order to win them (for example, Sheik), or what other characters who lose to Pikachu can do to win (like ROB)? Why not be actually constructive?

I believe in educating others, but there are limits. This will be my last post on the subject.

Dude the fact that you act like you know what your talking about is your problem. and personally you dont know much about my characters.
You constantly explain all the positives that your character has and constantly over exaggerate on the bad side about my characters, its seriously just dumb.
Now, I know this is discussion, but like I said im not gonna take your word on everything you say is true about your character.
And i dont know much about Sheik, or other characters so..... you can stop right there.
Peach's"mediocre ground game" is one good example of you not knowing about her.
Her ground great,
She has fast attacks with great combo ability, and all her tilts have very good range and can be used as spacing tools,
Her smashes(not too much about her down smash) are powerful,
I dont understand how you call her ground game mediocre.

So how about you look up more about these characters to understand them. Right now I just cant read your entire posts because of how lackluster they are.
So for now, im just gonna completely ignore any of your quotes because I am pretty sure they wont be worth my time.

Here is something you should see, maybe you may learn something from it hopefully
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4z19Gmb8tO0

 

[Antonykun]

Dude the fact that you act like you know what your talking about is your problem. and personally you dont know much about my characters.
You constantly explain all the positives that your character has and constantly over exaggerate on the bad side about my characters, its seriously just dumb.
Now, I know this is discussion, but like I said im not gonna take your word on everything you say is true about your character.
And i dont know much about Sheik, or other characters so..... you can stop right there.
Peach's"mediocre ground game" is one good example of you not knowing about her.
Her ground great,
She has fast attacks with great combo ability, and all her tilts have very good range and can be used as spacing tools,
Her smashes(not too much about her down smash) are powerful,
I dont understand how you call her ground game mediocre.

So how about you look up more about these characters to understand them. Right now I just cant read your entire posts because of how lackluster they are.
So for now, im just gonna completely ignore any of your quotes because I am pretty sure they wont be worth my time.

Here is something you should see, maybe you may learn something from it hopefully
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4z19Gmb8tO0

You know saying that someone as good at pikachu as Solid is ignore worthy and "not worth your time" is probably a very bad idea since he's been helping my pikachu get better.
I will admit peach's ground game is great when you factor quick float cancels. plus that fast jab and other ground tools.
But man Mike Kirby looks good out there. Orion could have used more D-tilt

 

[A10theHero]

Dude the fact that you act like you know what your talking about is your problem. and personally you dont know much about my characters.
You constantly explain all the positives that your character has and constantly over exaggerate on the bad side about my characters, its seriously just dumb.
Now, I know this is discussion, but like I said im not gonna take your word on everything you say is true about your character.
And i dont know much about Sheik, or other characters so..... you can stop right there.
Peach's"mediocre ground game" is one good example of you not knowing about her.
Her ground great,
She has fast attacks with great combo ability, and all her tilts have very good range and can be used as spacing tools,
Her smashes(not too much about her down smash) are powerful,
I dont understand how you call her ground game mediocre.
So how about you look up more about these characters to understand them. Right now I just cant read your entire posts because of how lackluster they are.
So for now, im just gonna completely ignore any of your quotes because I am pretty sure they wont be worth my time.
Here is something you should see, maybe you may learn something from it hopefully
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4z19Gmb8tO0

I've read your conversation with @ NairWizard and this post you made seriously bothers me. You complain about him not knowing what he's talking about and then you act like you know what you're talking about. You obviously don't know much about Pikachu, as demonstrated by your previous posts. You're basing your beliefs on your experiences online, which is extremely fallible. You should have come to this thread prepared to learn that all your previous assumptions about the matchup were false. SolidSense definitely is a credible source--his presence here on this forum definitely attests to that. It feels like you can't handle any criticism whatsoever of your characters, like you can't admit that Pikachu has some advantages over them. And congratulations, you found a video to support your claim. Even if Kirby is at a disadvantage in the matchup against Pikachu, it doesn't mean that he can never win under any circumstance. A player's skill directly affects the actual outcome. Matchups assume players are of equal skill. So just because you found a video where a Kirby player beats a Pikachu player doesn't mean that anything said in this discussion is wrong.
Dude, you really need to understand these characters more, including your own. But more than that, you need to learn to have a discussion; this wasn't a debate where you vehemently oppose the other side's viewpoint. You repeatedly accused SolidSense of ignoring Pikachu's faults, but your reasoning for Pikachu being bad was easily debunked. Sure, maybe SolidSense isn't all-knowing and can't explain this matchup 100% perfectly, but he did a better job than you did.

Now that I got that off my chest, what's the matchup against Zero Suit Samus like?

 

[Pikabunz]

Pikachu beats ZSS I think. A lot of her attacks go over Pika which gives us a lot of openings to punish and it makes some of our approaches a lot safer.

 

[A10theHero]

Pikachu beats ZSS I think. A lot of her attacks go over Pika which gives us a lot of openings to punish and it makes some of our approaches a lot safer.

Okay. I haven't fought that many Zero Suit Samus players so I don't know much about the matchup. I remember when I was more of a noob at Smash 4, I fought this one Zero Suit Samus who kept using her Down + B when coming back onto the stage whenever I was near the edge. It always hit me. :/ Now that I know more edgeguarding techniques and have a better idea of what I should be doing when my opponents are offstage, I'll try to avoid being a sitting duck like that, but in case that situation does ever happen again, what should I do? Should I try to attack, shield, roll forward/backward, or spotdodge?

 

[NairWizard]

Okay. I haven't fought that many Zero Suit Samus players so I don't know much about the matchup. I remember when I was more of a noob at Smash 4, I fought this one Zero Suit Samus who kept using her Down + B when coming back onto the stage whenever I was near the edge. It always hit me. :/ Now that I know more edgeguarding techniques and have a better idea of what I should be doing when my opponents are offstage, I'll try to avoid being a sitting duck like that, but in case that situation does ever happen again, what should I do? Should I try to attack, shield, roll forward/backward, or spotdodge?

b-air through it, or Thunder it

A good ZSS won't do that, because it's punishable.

Matchup is in Pikachu's favor because of d-tilt pressure. 55:45 sounds right, though; ZSS kills really early with up-b.

@ Antonykun

Villager is 50:50, because it's really hard to edgeguard Villager and all of her attacks are disjointed.

 

[A_Phoenix_Down]

I'm impressed with this match-up thread. I can't speak for any other character but that Lonk match-up is spot on. Keep up the good work.

Why am I here you may be wondering? Well I'm thinking about making Pikachu my secondary. Charizards seeming like a disappointment unfortunately, and I need a Pokemon in my team.

 

[Odaroloc]

As a ZZS main, I can assure you that Pikachu has the advantage. I have a friend who mains Pikachu and he wins a majority of the time, and this is why: Pikachu goes more than half of our attacks. Using bair to the ground means that I can only use a dsmash, but there's usually enough time to dodge out of it. Small characters are the hardest for ZZS because we can't use all of our attacks. I space with ftilt, and I can't do that against Pikachu. I'd say it's a 65-35 in Pikachu's favor.

Apply pressure with UpB, use bair frequently, and downb when we flipjump = win

 

[NairWizard]

As a ZZS main, I can assure you that Pikachu has the advantage. I have a friend who mains Pikachu and he wins a majority of the time, and this is why: Pikachu goes more than half of our attacks. Using bair to the ground means that I can only use a dsmash, but there's usually enough time to dodge out of it. Small characters are the hardest for ZZS because we can't use all of our attacks. I space with ftilt, and I can't do that against Pikachu. I'd say it's a 65-35 in Pikachu's favor.

Apply pressure with UpB, use bair frequently, and downb when we flipjump = win

Spaced n-air low to the ground, d-tilt, and down-angled f-tilt will let you hit Pikachu when he's low to the ground. ZSS' advantage in this matchup is KO power. up-b kills really early. Also, ZSS is hard to perform strings on because of her good disadvantaged state (she can flip jump or use her aerial mobility to get out of traps). Pikachu's airspeed is quite mediocre, so ZSS can usually land up-airs on him if you're high enough up before Pikachu can Quick Attack away (Pikachu will try to Skull Bash away, but if he has Heavy Skull Bash he'll leave himself open a bit after doing this).

 

[Hoenn]

ZSS matchup in a nutshell:
step 1. Duck
step 2. laugh at them struggling
ZSS has trouble killing if you duck. Ducking does not just lower your hurtbox, it also reduces knockback and hitstun. This makes it a lot harder for zss to start up her combos and destroys a lot of her setups.
ZSS also has to approach pikachu due to her stun gun never being safe since you can punish it with quick attack on reaction.
ZSS does not have a very strong approach game, especially vs small characters with good crouches.
Due to crouching, zss does not have the best Oos options. Due to this, our normal weakness of having trouble killing becomes basically obsolete. With safe pressure, we can force zss to pick unsafe options just to reset to neutral. she cannot use patient mixups or hide in shield like most characters do. So if we correctly read her limited options, then we can safely secure kills.

On the downside, edge guarding zss is very tricky. You have to be patient and calculated, otherwise you can easily die due to her recovery options also having strong hitboxes and it is not super easy to juggle her. (if she is offstage without a down b though, then go ham like normal)
I don't have the most zss experience (so bare with me lol), but I do have a zss player in my state with TONS of pikachu experience. If I got anything wrong here, then obviously feel free to correct me

 

[Duck SMASH!]

Hey guys! I know you are handling the matchups in a set order, but the Bowser Jr. boards have a thread discussing the Pikachu MU and would love it if any of you are able to stop by and weigh in!
Thanks very much in advance!
http://smashboards.com/threads/vs-pikachu.395277/

 

[Soul.]

Alright, time for Bowser Jr. because requests.

Matchup is in Pikachu's favor I think. We can combo Jr. until he starts to flinch with up tilt. Jolts are going to be used obviously. Jr.'s aerials are good at taking care of Jolts too so that's something. Our combo game is basically up tilt > opponent flinch > uair > bair. Note that our combos depend on the opponent's DI, so we may continue with falling FAir strings.

Mechakoopas give Jr. good stage control and are a good trap; using shield > QA can help us get through them. Speaking of QA, this helps us get in and hit Jr., which again, leads to combos, second hit lets us follow up with aerials and puts Jr. in a bad position. We can QA backwards to not get hit.

In terms of spacing, we have down tilt. Trips lead to grab for free follow ups. OoS options include NAir. A good OoS tool that disturbs Jr.'s gameplan. Our SH AC DAir is also good for waiting Jr.'s next move as it's a lingering hitbox, and if we want to KO we can use OoS up smash.

Also unless I'm wrong (I'm pretty sure I am), if Jr. uses Side B to jump we can either up air him or FAir him. Our falling BAir already gimps his "bad" recovery, which is not good for Jr.

At least he has the advantage of being one of, if not the most aggressive character in the game so he can combo Pikachu (despite being small) with frame cancelled DAir to FAir, or Side B to UAir. We'll be using up smash and Thunder to KO; forward smash if there's a chance. Jr. has FSmash, BAir, and Up B. I suppose he KOs by reads? Not really sure.

Bowser Jr. outranges Pikachu, but with our character's fast speed it makes that pointless. Before I forget, Thunder Wave lets us grab for free and set up an up smash after that.

 

[Deleted member]

The Toon Link board is discussing the Pikachu match-up until March 28 if anyone is interested in joining in on the discussion. http://smashboards.com/threads/tl-match-up-discussion-week-17-palutena-peach-pikachu-pit.378737/

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Alright, time for Bowser Jr. because requests.

Matchup is in Pikachu's favor I think. We can combo Jr. until he starts to flinch with up tilt. Jolts are going to be used obviously. Jr.'s aerials are good at taking care of Jolts too so that's something. Our combo game is basically up tilt > opponent flinch > uair > bair. Note that our combos depend on the opponent's DI, so we may continue with falling FAir strings.

Mechakoopas give Jr. good stage control and are a good trap; using shield > QA can help us get through them. Speaking of QA, this helps us get in and hit Jr., which again, leads to combos, second hit lets us follow up with aerials and puts Jr. in a bad position. We can QA backwards to not get hit.

In terms of spacing, we have down tilt. Trips lead to grab for free follow ups. OoS options include NAir. A good OoS tool that disturbs Jr.'s gameplan. Our SH AC DAir is also good for waiting Jr.'s next move as it's a lingering hitbox, and if we want to KO we can use OoS up smash.

Also unless I'm wrong (I'm pretty sure I am), if Jr. uses Side B to jump we can either up air him or FAir him. Our falling BAir already gimps his "bad" recovery, which is not good for Jr.

At least he has the advantage of being one of, if not the most aggressive character in the game so he can combo Pikachu (despite being small) with frame cancelled DAir to FAir, or Side B to UAir. We'll be using up smash and Thunder to KO; forward smash if there's a chance. Jr. has FSmash, BAir, and Up B. I suppose he KOs by reads? Not really sure.

Bowser Jr. outranges Pikachu, but with our character's fast speed it makes that pointless. Before I forget, Thunder Wave lets us grab for free and set up an up smash after that.

So what would you put it? 60:40?
Bowser Jr., does have some..........wacky attacks that made me not able to play him all too well.
I mean with enough practice he can be a strong character defiantly, his speed is......well... Meh....
It's not bad, but it's not too great.
His attacks are powerful and somewhat decent range, but he is kinda combo food xD
Btw can I request Zelda after this?

 

[Soul.]

So what would you put it? 60:40?
Bowser Jr., does have some..........wacky attacks that made me not able to play him all too well.
I mean with enough practice he can be a strong character defiantly, his speed is......well... Meh....
It's not bad, but it's not too great.
His attacks are powerful and somewhat decent range, but he is kinda combo food xD
Btw can I request Zelda after this?

Yeah, probably. This thread has been getting random discussions ever since it was made. Unless someone changes it to a fixed discussion thing starting with Diddy and Sheik* then yeah you can talk about Zelda.
*which a new thread sounds better

 

[Douchuumen]

Hi Pikachu boards, could you give me a run down on Pikachu's "bad" matchups? The only one that sticks out for me is Ness. Sonic and Villager also seem like they could be problematic, but I can't think of anything else.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

So what would you put it? 60:40?
Bowser Jr., does have some..........wacky attacks that made me not able to play him all too well.
I mean with enough practice he can be a strong character defiantly, his speed is......well... Meh....
It's not bad, but it's not too great.
His attacks are powerful and somewhat decent range, but he is kinda combo food xD

Hi Pikachu boards, could you give me a run down on Pikachu's "bad" matchups? The only one that sticks out for me is Ness. Sonic and Villager also seem like they could be problematic, but I can't think of anything else.

Just bad MU? Would close to or even match ups be good?

I think Peach may have the advantage against Pika, but just slightly if anything.
Yoshi I think would be able to win against him.
Do you also include Customs with this too?

 

[Pikabunz]

I don't think there are many match-ups we lose in. I'd say the hardest ones are Ness, Sonic, Olimar, Mario, and maybe Metaknight.

 

[Hoenn]

I want to add sheik to that list, but yeah, what @ Pikabunz said

 

[Kaladin]

Why do people think the ness MU is bad? if you grab him, he's dead. (Throw offstage to gimp)

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

I don't think there are many match-ups we lose in. I'd say the hardest ones are Ness, Sonic, Olimar, Mario, and maybe Metaknight.

you may have several slight disadvantages against some characters, but no counters(most likely)
though I would imagine there being a lot of evens

 

[chaosmasterro]

The main characters I have a problem with are Olimars because pikmin absorb jolts, Mario because of cape and fireball. Sonic is weird because he pings with a lot of our attacks, F smash pings with his dash attacks. Jolt pings with a couple of moves as well. I guess I have trouble in match ups where I can't rely on jolts to approach.

 

[Berserker.]

I'm not really expecting much input because both Shulk and Pika are rare, so try to put less priority on the MU score (in other words, don't post a score if you don't feel like it) and focus on the discussion and theories. Thanks. If you actually have a hefty amount of input, that would be wonderful

No disruptive posting plz. Thanks

http://smashboards.com/threads/summon-bolt-pikachu-a-match-up-thread.396112

 

[A10theHero]

Hey @ hell-dew , can you add all this useful information that everyone has contributed to the OP?

 

[hell-dew]

The main characters I have a problem with are Olimars because pikmin absorb jolts, Mario because of cape and fireball. Sonic is weird because he pings with a lot of our attacks, F smash pings with his dash attacks. Jolt pings with a couple of moves as well. I guess I have trouble in match ups where I can't rely on jolts to approach.

learn the rest of your moveset i used to have this problem in brawl then i started playing without jolts then realized jolts are pretty bleh against players who will excessively Powershield anyways at least when used in excess.

as to fixing up this topic and organizing i need some time for that currently waiting for school that said i have some ideas i want to implement and MUs i need to update heavily.

 

[Emuchu]

The main characters I have a problem with are Olimars because pikmin absorb jolts, Mario because of cape and fireball. Sonic is weird because he pings with a lot of our attacks, F smash pings with his dash attacks. Jolt pings with a couple of moves as well. I guess I have trouble in match ups where I can't rely on jolts to approach.

Yeah, I feel the pain, too, when my Tjolt gets bounced or sponged, but it's not game over if that's the case. In quite a few match ups against people with reflectors, you can actually still use your Tjolt as a mixup tool because of the strange way Tjolt moves. Against Fox or Falco, you don't really care if your Tjolt gets reflected, because it's slow anyway, and Pika's almost never in the reflection path. In addition, you can mix up between obvious reflect-bait Tjolt from mid-close range (to get them used to reflecting things) and longer-ranged Tjolts that you run with, and then Fair or grab them or something before the TJolt gets there. It's even better against Mario's cape because he doesn't get to act immediately after a reflection/absorption like Fox or Ness can.

 

[Hoenn]

The olimar matchup is all about pressuring olimar's diagonal blindspot. The only issue is that fair is not reliable because when pikmin are attached we cannot use fair due to how delayed it is. Because of the pikmin, we lose mobility on it and olimar gets a free punish on fair, even if we retreat it. The only way to approach is when you don't have an pikmin attached.

Because we have to kill the pikmin, we give up stage control in order to stay safe, then olimar gets tons of space to retreat and avoid getting pressured from that diagonal. Approaching this character is hard with pikachu

At my last monthly, I got 5th by getting double eliminated by an olimar that constantly places well at tournaments I go to. He says that the matchup is even and that we should not give up hope.

 

[Deleted member]

I main Pit and always lose to pikachu, all pikachu will do is grab, electrocute 10+times while i stare at screen watching pit get shocked(cant do anything) chucks you down and finishes with thunder. So annoying!!

 

[Hoenn]

I main Pit and always lose to pikachu, all pikachu will do is grab, electrocute 10+times while i stare at screen watching pit get shocked(cant do anything) chucks you down and finishes with thunder. So annoying!!

You can mash out of that

Pikachu still beats pit IMO though

 

[NairWizard]

I recently had a long play session with Vermanubis (if you don't know, he was arguably the best Ganondorf in the USA in Brawl, and he's probably still the best Ganondorf in the USA in smash 4), and I have some thoughts related to Pikachu vs. heavies after that.

It was online, which makes Ganondorf harder to react to, since you can't spotdodge Flame Chokes on reaction, and teching them is hard, even with a smooth connection, so I'm toning down my observations accordingly, but overall we went back and forth, 50:50. The matches that I won, I won because I landed a gimp on Ganon, usually at 30 or 40%, by predicting his offstage DI and the timing of the up-air and using the appropriate aerial (d-air, n-air, b-air, and even up-air were in rotation: Thunder only rarely). The matches I lost, I lost because I couldn't land that gimp, and I didn't have a reliable way to kill Ganon without a gimp. Basically, this led to situations where Ganon was at 100% and I had no way to take off his stock, and he was sitting pretty with Rage and could take my stock easily even if I was only at 60%.

This leads me to believe that the Ganondorf matchup, while in our favor with customs off, is probably even with customs on, because Ganon gains the move Dark Fists, which lets him recover to the ledge for free in most situations (it has f5 super armor, and the top hitbox can KO Pikachu at 50% even below the stage). If you can't gimp/edgeguard Ganon, he's going to get you into situations where his tilts can kill you via Rage, so it doesn't matter that you outspeed him and walk circles around him: he just needs a few clean hits, and can take dozens of hits in return. Because Pikachu is a small character, it takes a long time for him to hit the ground after Flame Choke, so the tech window is kind of strict, too, which makes setting up for d-tilts slightly easier if you're not perfect with your techs.

Of course, with customs on, Pikachu also gains Heavy Skull Bash, which could let us kill Ganon very easily very reliably, and negate everything that I just said. I really need to test it vs. Ganon. I'm thinking that it's easy enough to set up, with minimal punishment windows (Ganon can't run in and grab because he's slow, but maybe he can Wizard's Dropkick over if you miss?). But regardless since you can't gimp him and basically have to rely on HSB, I think it's probably close to 50:50 with customs on.

60:40 with customs off is a good estimate. I believe the situation for Pikachu vs. heavies is similar across the heavies (winning 60:40 in customs off, close to even in customs on), except for Ike, with whom we probably go 50:50 just because of his airspeed regardless of customs. We may actually lose the Ike matchup in customs on, because Close Combat is a really good punish for Pikachu's whiffed aerials.

 

[Soul.]

Wait. we "may" lose to Ike with customs on? I've never seen someone using Close Combat effectively.

 

[Deleted member]

Whos Favor is it when Pikachu is matched up with sonic and Pit. Any reasons?

 

[Hoenn]

With customs we get heavy skull bash and can kill him for wiffing almost anything due to his cooldown time.
With customs we also get quick feet which gives us a ridiculous keep away game. So I feel like even with customs we still should have a good chance of still winning the matchups. They can't do much if they can't touch us.
How many of the heavies get improved mobility with customs?

 

[Blobface]

With customs we get heavy skull bash and can kill him for wiffing almost anything due to his cooldown time.
With customs we also get quick feet which gives us a ridiculous keep away game. So I feel like even with customs we still should have a good chance of still winning the matchups. They can't do much if they can't touch us.
How many of the heavies get improved mobility with customs?

A good Ganondorf will never do anything that can be punished by HSB (except for hard reads where Pikachu can't punish anyway), nor does Ganondorf need to, since F-Tilt will kill Pikachu at like, 70%. To be honest, HSB is more of a saving grace in this matchup since Pikachu loses his edgeguarding entirely. HSB basically prevents this matchup from being in Ganon's favor since it'll prevent Ganon from reaching obscenely high %'s, which I personally find very fair. Overall the matchup is likely 50:50 with customs. Pikachu has to work hard to deal with Dark Fists (it can break combos and counter aerial approaches), and he can't gimp Ganondorf with minimal effort anymore, but he gets HSB in return, allowing him to actually kill Ganondorf.

Also, Pikachu can't keep away Ganon with Quick Feet, mainly because Thunder Jolt just isn't a safe enough projectile to allow keep away, plus Quick Feet gives up the amazing escape option that is Quick Attack.

 

[NairWizard]

A good Ganondorf will never do anything that can be punished by HSB

Never? You have to land eventually if you get knocked into the air. Heavy Skull Bash is primarily a landing punish. Avoiding HSB as Ganondorf while landing (with his awful air speed and big body) isn't failsafe. If you n-air, Pikachu can wait and still hit you. If you airdodge, Pikachu can wait and still hit you. If Pikachu doesn't wait and flies into your n-air or airdodge, you can probably punish with a dash attack or chase. If you fastfall shield, Pikachu can miss the timing (he has like a 2-frame window to react to this), and hit your shield and die.

(except for hard reads where Pikachu can't punish anyway)

You can punish hard reads that whiff. Going for a hard read isn't always guaranteed. If Pikachu plays it safe, with his movement options he can pretty much force Ganon to go for a few hard reads instead of always playing it safe with tilts. A crouching Pikachu can duck all of Ganon's attacks except for d-tilt, including d-smash and grab, so that's one situation in which Ganon has to read the Pikachu in order to do something.


I agree that it's 50:50 or close to that, but I think your reasoning is a little off.
The reason it isn't in Pikachu's favor is that Heavy Skull Bash on shield costs Pikachu a stock (Dark Fists).
But HSB isn't particularly hard to land. It's kind of like a 50:50 game, "my stock or yours."

 

[Blobface]

That sounds correct. So it seems that customs make this matchup more volatile? Either character screwing up = a stock?

 

[NairWizard]

Yeah, basically if you mess up, you die. I really need to test it though.

That's kind of how it is in customs off, anyway, because Pikachu edgeguards Ganon if he mistimes the anti-edgeguard up-air on his way back to the stage. Only in customs off it feels a lot worse. Edgeguards at 30 are a little nastier than Heavy Skull Bash at 75.

I'd say it's 60:40 in customs off, Pika's favor, but 50:50 in customs on.


@ Soul. re: Ike. I think Ike is 50:50 in customs off because he just massively outranges us, he's heavy, he has d-throw combos on us, and his recovery is hard to gimp (unlike, say, Pit's recovery) due to the invincibility frames on it. If Ike preserves his double jump you're never going to get any of the "sillier" gimps on his up-b; you can get his side-b though just by running into it offstage, kind of like using a body-shield, but that's about it.

In customs on, Ike gets Close Combat, which is basically like a good dash attack (something that he sorely misses with customs off). It tears through tjolts so you can never tjolt camp, it punishes any whiffed aerial, and it closes the gap between Pikachu and Ike when Pikachu just wants to keep Ike away. It doesn't do a lot of damage, but Pikachu basically loses all safety vs. Ike because of this move. I have played against this custom a lot, and while it isn't as terrifiyng as Dark Fists, it also hits me a LOT more. The amount of things that it can punish on reaction is crazy.