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Luigi is a pain but I have no good experience against one. What I can determine is that he has a stronger SH aerial game than Pikachu's but not ground game if you don't run into his jabs. His floatiness makes him hard to juggle but at least he is very gimpable off-stage. I *believe* this all applies to Mario as well.
I may be crazy for this but I've always loved fighting characters who are ready with the down+b to absorb my jolts. This includes G&W. You know why? It gives you a powerful baiting tool which has a remarkable success rate. I will certainly allow Ness to absorb my jolt in exchange for getting grabbed. The thunder is what you should be extraordinarily careful in using. And not much can be done about that back throw. Try not to stay grounded. Ness loves his SH nair so you'll want to challenge his SH nair with your own. Autocanceled SH dairs are golden too especially at higher percents due to Ness utilizing throw combos and back throw as a kill move. If you are close to Ness during his recovery attempt he is easily gimped. If not, but you are at a low percent, feel free to intentionally get hit by his PK Thunder recovery because when Ness hits an opponent this way it cuts the recovery distance by about half.
Pikachu can wall Luigi out and force him to approach because of Thunderjolt, so I'd say that yes, he has a slight advantage in the MU.
I love tjolt approaches against Fox. Reflector puts him in a laggy state which can be Quick Attacked if you react fast enough. This sets you up for a u-tilt chain.
Absolutely the most important thing against Ness is edgeguarding. Perfect your edgeguarding game, and never ever let him on to the stage or ledge for free. You might miss sometimes and end up in a bad situation, but who cares? It's Pikachu. He can just get back to a good situation with QA again. You have to be aggressive because Ness stuffs Pikachu on the stage and kills way earlier. Jump near him while he's using PK Thunder to recover and use Thunder; if you time it right, you won't get hit by the PKT2 but you will send Ness flying. It takes a bit of practice and a lot of guts.
Hey that is creative. I'll have to try that sometime.
Learn to love d-tilt, up-tilt, sh f-air, and sh d-air. That's about it. D-tilt is your best tool in the MU; Ness has no answer due to his lack of range. Average Nesses will roll behind you when you d-tilt pressure, so be careful not to overcommit to d-tilt and end up getting grabbed from behind. Up-tilt catches the roll, so try d-tilt -> pause, wait for roll -> react to roll and up-tilt.
Yeah, it's tough to fight Pikachu with Ike.
can combo him pretty easily. On For Glory, virtually all of the Diddys stink. But yesterday, I faced a good Diddy at a tournament, and I had some major difficulties with him. I've heard a lot of people say that DIing out of his up throw is crucial for beating him, but I tried that and it just left me vulnerable to his other aerials. After looking at the replays of my defeat, I have some ideas on how to beat Mr. Hoo Haa that I wanted to run by you guys first. And also, I was hoping that there's some helpful advice you could give too.
Got it. Thanks!
You can punish Yoshi for tossing eggs with either Quick Attack if he's on the ground or just gaining stage presence if he's in the air, so don't feel like you have to get dominated by eggs in this MU. Camping him isn't really a good idea because it just leaves you vulnerable to eggs.
How does the neutral work then? If we're not permitted to use our projectile or aerial approaches (I believe the latter is what you were alluding to at the end of your post) then our approaching options are limited to quick attack or hoping we can get a grab. Does he really shut down that many of our options?
50:50 on stages with platforms55:4560:40
Am I missing something?
Kirby vs Pikachu:Let's talk about he he would do against Kirby.
Kirby has overall stronger moves and a better edge guarding game then Pikachu and he can rack up damage pretty nicely and has a few strong throws with fast attacks.
Pikachu has a better approach then Kirby and has slightly faster attacks overall and can camp better with thunderjolts.
Because of Kirbys multiple jumps, it's easy to avoid Pikachu and if they actually come offstage, it could do more harm to them.
Pikachus offstage game gets pretty predictable and is easy to avoid.
In Brawl I learned to perfect shield Pikachus thunderjolt pretty easily.
If you can do that and learn what the Pikachu does after approaching or doing whatever with TJ, then it should generally be slightly in your favor.
Because FG only has omega stages, idk what the matchup would be like on stages with plattforms( I would imagine it would help Kirby more so he has an easier time avoiding the TJ)
Overall on flat stages
Now for Peach
-Has great range in her attacks
-Has a lot of KO moves
-Has an overall better recovery
-Has a more useful and versatile projectile
-Has great combo ability
-Has a deadly edge guarding game.
Pikachu
-Has faster attacks overall
-Can combo fast, but only to certain percents
-Has decent Ariels
I don't know very much about Pikachu because I don't face them often in FG
Peach has a great projectile with her turnips that can be used to counter Pikachus TJ.
because she can float, it allows her to avoid TJ and still stay in the air.
Obviously Pikachu won't have much options besides approaching, and Peach can hold her ground with her fast ariels and great tilts. Because she out ranges Pikachu and is great at spacing, It won't be easy for him to get in unless he gets the timing right.
Peach is not good at dealing with lots of pressure, so if she is pronged to getting overwhelmed with fast attacks, but she is light, and has a great recovery so she can still hold her ground.
Overall I would say it's
You need to play a grounded game using tilts. You don't technically approach Diddy. You box him in. Once he's in d-tilt range, you can up-tilt on reaction to roll behind, Quick Attack on reaction to roll away, and d-tilt pressure him if he doesn't move. His f-air won't hit you if you use your d-tilt because you'll be crouching. His own d-tilt is pretty good, so it's not an easy matchup in neutral.
Kirby doesn't have the aerial speed to wall Pikachu out. Pikachu generally wins the air game with f-air/b-air/up-air since some of Pikachu's air moves are disjointed. On the ground, Pikachu wins easily with d-tilt spacing. Kirby has to come to Pikachu because of Tjolt, but it's hard even if you powershield because of Quick Attack. Kirby just doesn't have the mobility to get in against Pikachu, and once he's in, unless he's absolutely close, Pikachu will still keep him out with his better range and tilt game. It's not a pretty sight for Kirby.
There's your problem. You're using FG as a measure of matchups. That's really one of the worst things that you can do, for many reasons.
Pikachu is more than just tjolt camping. Peach is susceptible to SH f-air and b-air, like most floaties, and has a tough time hitting Pikachu with anything other than d-air (Pikachu can duck under the n-air). Pikachu edgeguards Peach pretty well despite her solid recovery because of his multiple tools for the job (Thunder, b-air, tjolt).
Sorry, Like I said, I cant truly test all of this because I can only play on FG and first of all
Pikachu's recovery is one of the harder to edge guard andone of the fastest, its one of the BETTER recoveries in the game.
The range on Pikachu's up-tilt and d-tilt are greater than anything Kirby has short of f-smash. Pikachu's own f-smash is disjointed and out of a pivot outranges anything that Kirby can do on the ground. Pikachu's tilt game isn't only better; it's leaps and bounds better.
Pikachu can do serious damage when he gets in on Kirby too. But there's a difference. Kirby can't really escape Pikachu's strings because of bad airspeed. Pikachu can just Quick Attack out of disadvantage. Pikachu is better in neutral and in disadvantage; they are tied in advantage. That isn't anything like a 50:50.
f-air and b-air go over a crouching Pikachu in most situations. You can do a grounded f-air, which will hit on its way down, but that can be punished by QA despite the autocancel because it takes a while to start up/finish the animation (and QA goes through it, which is hilarious).
Pikachu doesn't mind this at all, given that Quick Attack is a fast recovery and he only has half the stay-on time at the ledge as most characters.
This is almost impossible. Pikachu has a billion different angles on Quick Attack. How is it that you are claiming that most characters can avoid Pikachu's edgeguarding, but Pikachu can't just avoid something as simple as Peach's turnips? Let's turn the statement on it's head:
You're thinking of Quick Attack canceling, not Quick Attack. Quick Attack has been buffed since Brawl; it is way better in this game due to more hitstun.
Kirby's airspeed makes his edgeguarding way more predictable than Pikachu's. Seriously. You can see him coming from a mile away.
Ok then How about we have an online battle my NNID: is smashdemon
Let's get one thing straight. This is a discussion thread. We are not here to "convince you." You're coming in here throwing around claims without any back up at all, with a bare minimum of evidence, mostly coming from For Glory. If anything, you should be trying to convince the rest of us, not challenging people to random fights.
Well like I said I can't play against people W/O online and What I will say is that It's funny you constantly list the advantages Pikachu has, while not even listing what faults he has.
Sure, these are true, except for killing power, since up-smash kills early, but they don't really apply in the Kirby matchup, because Pikachu still has more range than Kirby. And Kirby is light so up-smash kills super early anyway (and is easier to land than Kirby's f-smash, since Pikachu is better on the ground.
He Quick Attacks away. It's not punishable unless you have huge run speed, because there's almost no endlag to the move (there's only startup lag). Kirby and Peach do not have huge run speed.
Attend a tournament and money match a top Pikachu (I'll play you for free in a friendly set at any regional), and then tell me what you did to win, and we may have an argument here. WiFi is not an argument.
I basically Implied that I cannot attend any tournament..... And Wifi is the only other option. It's not a great option, but it's better then nothing.
I'm not the greatest Pikachu but I could play you if you want. I played a peach vs pikachu a bit so I know a bit the MU but not that great. I never played Kirby vs pikachu but like Solidsense said... the goal is not to win but to show the potential of the characters. Maybe you'll crush me because you are the better player and vice-versa but at least I'll be able to show you that its not that easy to edgeguard pika / be edgeguarded by pika
Thank you, I wanted to battle online to also see how Pikachu edge guards and how most players approach and play, it helps understand both characters and could prove us wrong about what we think of each character.
Fixed
