Pika + G&W Team in this game

[Takehiko]

The problem is that if we don't outright make it impossible for the situation to occur (i.e. banning the oil panic move itself) there will probably be instances of teams utilizing this strategy.

Well until further testing that other moves with bucket can be used in a broken way then that means you can't ban the bucket for only just being useful with one move.

 

[M15t3R E]

Well until further testing that other moves with bucket can be used in a broken way then that means you can't ban the bucket for only just being useful with one move.

Thunder is the fastest, easiest way to charge the bucket but apparently Ness, WFT, Robin and Mega Man can charge the bucket fully in one shot too. Probably Samus and Lucario too but I haven't tested them.

 

[Djent]

The argument is the same as before. It's probably busted, but we've accumulated zero new evidence of its bustedness. All that happened is that Japan banned it (and Japan knows best, apparently ). And now everyone has an opinion all of a sudden.

It's strange to see the consensus shift so quickly to "BAN!" when virtually nothing new has happened in the interim, and virtually no time has passed. I will say that I like the idea of banning Oil Panic 1 over banning G&W (because it implicitly legitimizes custom moves ).

 

[M15t3R E]

The argument is the same as before. It's probably busted, but we've accumulated zero new evidence of its bustedness. All that happened is that Japan banned it (and Japan knows best, apparently ). And now everyone has an opinion all of a sudden.

It's strange to see the consensus shift so quickly to "BAN!" when virtually nothing new has happened in the interim, and virtually no time has passed. I will say that I like the idea of banning Oil Panic 1 over banning G&W (because it implicitly legitimizes custom moves ).

We do have this for evidence.

 

[Djent]

Right, but that's what started the Pika/GnW discussion in the first place.

 

[M15t3R E]

Right, but that's what started the Pika/GnW discussion in the first place.

But what more evidence do you need that it's too powerful a strategy?

 

[Balgorxz]

give each team 1 character ban before a match, that way we will solve that and if people think the combo isn't as strong as people think it's now then people will stop banning pikachu/gnw in doubles, ez problem solved now and in the future.

 

[Eji1700]

What if we just ban Pocketing or Bucketing your teammates thunder. That's more reasonable because it still leaves Bucket to be used and it's something you can see happening because he's going to be at the receiving point of the thunder.

"oops i accidentally pocketed his thunder"

Basically at that point you might as well just ban the team, because anyone running it is either gambling that when they screw up, they won't be DQ'd(which means some people will "Screw up" on purpose), or they will eventually screw up, and lose for it.

It's basically waaay too hard to enforce. Again, the whole upside of banning bucket 1 is that this stops the extreme exploit that it gives, and as for waiting, sure I suppose, but this really does seem to be the dominant strat right now. There's the obvious 17 second mirror which is pretty stupid, but even that aside it's typing as an attack, and not a projectile, severely limits the counters.

if it's kept for now, it should be with a very heavy eye on it. I've yet to see anything as stupid as the 17 second match out of pocket villager, but it should be watched as well(although i'm less for banning it at this point, as the setups and moves are a little more predictable, and can be handled better).

 

[Judo777]

I'm sure there are team combinations that destroy these two characters and don't give them a chance to fill it. Has anyone tried using Jiggs and tried to rest Pikachu after he thunders or G&W after he uses a bucket? Once you have them seperated just don't let them close. MR Game and Watch is such a bad character once you seperate them just bait him into doing bucket then rest him again.

Just seperate them and keep them seperated. Play to punish them if they try to get their characters near each other.

Example: If you stand between them you know they will try to get close to each other. IN that case you can anticipate their motion, and you react and punish.

PS - Another reason to allow custom moves. I can think of customs that will destroy this. YOshi's egg lay launch will be a free gimp on either if they try it near an edge.

There really isn't a practical way of preventing it. Pikachus Thunder comes out frame 1 and GW is invincible while bucketing things (at least he was in brawl). The situation you just described says the solution is dominating them so badly that they never even had a chance regardless of the characters they picked. You can't prevent 2 people in doubles from getting near each other or gaining control of the stage the whole match without already being twice as good as they are.

Not saying there isn't a counter tactic, but preventing them from ever trying is not one of the solutions.

 

[Doval]

There really isn't a practical way of preventing it. Pikachus Thunder comes out frame 1 and GW is invincible while bucketing things (at least he was in brawl). The situation you just described says the solution is dominating them so badly that they never even had a chance regardless of the characters they picked. You can't prevent 2 people in doubles from getting near each other or gaining control of the stage the whole match without already being twice as good as they are.

Not saying there isn't a counter tactic, but preventing them from ever trying is not one of the solutions.

Take them to Tomodachi Life. If they get on the roof to do this, shark them mercilessly.

 

[Terotrous]

Seems very obviously busted. It's a one hit kill move with a gigantic disjointed hitbox that you can use over and over with no risk or penalty. There's literally no reason to ever use any other strategy.

I agree that banning Oil Panic 1 is likely the defense against this.

 

[MadKraken]

...Either we ban G&W himself, which nobody favors doing, we ban multiple G&W team combinations, or we ban the default oil panic...

Why not combine options 2 and 3 and ban Oil Panic 1 only in certain team combinations? Narrows the ban a bit further and allows G&Ws to use OP1 if they want with harmless teammates.

 

[Deathcarter]

Why not combine options 2 and 3 and ban Oil Panic 1 only in certain team combinations? Narrows the ban a bit further and allows G&Ws to use OP1 if they want with harmless teammates.

Bans should be very simple & straightforward, complex bans like what you're suggesting should be a no go. A straight up ban of either Oil Panic 1 or G&W himself is most likely the best solution.

 

[Redd500]

Bans should be very simple & straightforward, complex bans like what you're suggesting should be a no go. A straight up ban of either Oil Panic 1 or G&W himself is most likely the best solution.

Then you get into the issue of losing an entire character or move because some teams are OP as all hell, thus reducing players' options further than a more complex ban.

 

[Mr G W]

The "issue" is the new bucket's mechanics.

Each bucket layer is worth up to 8% damage. Any attacks that exceed this amount would normally have their excess damage wasted.

Now it gets carried over to the next layers so any 9-16% damage attacks will fill 2 layers and 17%+ attacks will fill all 3 layers.

Bucket 3 also benefits from this mechanic but it can only catch projectiles in front of you, not behind like bucket 1/2.

 

[MarkT]

Obvious ban until patched. You don't need more evidence. We've all been playing smash forever and know a thing or two about hitboxes, frames, and kill percentages.

If you were in charge of Smash and I was programming Mewtwo, and told you that I want Mewtwo's forward B to charge in 3 frames and has no lag frames. And then the next time you use forward B it creates a massive hitbox that hits multiple targets, lasts longer than a dodge, appears in 1 frame, and kills at 0%, what would you say? "That's a TERRIBLE idea, so no" OR "Interesting idea, we should test it."

Feel free to test on your own time but I think we've seen enough

 

[Cactusblah]

Can someone provide me some examples as to why friendly fire should be on, at least for Smash 4?

 

[Thinkaman]

Can someone provide me some examples as to why friendly fire should be on, at least for Smash 4?

It's easier to show, honestly. See if you can get some experienced players to show you some no-FF abuse at a smashfest or other event.

It mostly involves teammates hugging each other and becoming an unapproachable ball of hitboxes, where everything becomes safe. It's hyper-defensive and really boring. It is most abusive with certain projectiles and high-range disjointed attacks.

As a result of this, 1v2 comebacks become almost impossible as well.

 

[Cactusblah]

It's easier to show, honestly. See if you can get some experienced players to show you some no-FF abuse at a smashfest or other event.

It mostly involves teammates hugging each other and becoming an unapproachable ball of hitboxes, where everything becomes safe. It's hyper-defensive and really boring. It is most abusive with certain projectiles and high-range disjointed attacks.

As a result of this, 1v2 comebacks become almost impossible as well.

Thanks, I understand that explanation.

 

[Thinkaman]

Thanks, I understand that explanation.

It is a shame, though. Team Attack is almost always a major turn-off to new players.

Part of me hoped that 4v4s would somehow be able to get by without it, but that doesn't make much sense. All logic and reason points to the degenerate no-FF strategies being even better there... We can try it, but I wouldn't hold out hope...

 

[Doval]

It is a shame, though. Team Attack is almost always a major turn-off to new players.

Part of me hoped that 4v4s would somehow be able to get by without it, but that doesn't make much sense. All logic and reason points to the degenerate no-FF strategies being even better there... We can try it, but I wouldn't hold out hope...

You'll just get something really silly like a team with a Falco spamming lasers and a Link with Power Bow shooting 20% arrows periodically while two swordsmen alternate disjointed hitboxes. I really don't see that ending well.

 

[Thinkaman]

You'll just get something really silly like a team with a Falco spamming lasers and a Link with Power Bow shooting 20% arrows periodically while two swordsmen alternate disjointed hitboxes. I really don't see that ending well.

Yeah, or a ball of moves like Falco reflector just to beat more stuff. Doesn't sound fun.

 

[Teshie U]

Honestly, 2 people spamming projectiles, would lose to 1 reflector. The only thing degenerate about it, is that its different. Clearly TA on has some abusive "no-skill" tactics as well.

Smash 4 has more TA on abuse than all the other games combined, so its going to be interesting to see how the doubles meta plays out. I don't expect TA off to ever be accepted, but at least it wouldn't require us to ban characters (villager is obviously next).

 

[The_Altrox]

I think this needs to be banned before it ruins doubles tbh, even if it is very early in this game. I'd ban PikaWatch teams until this gets patched.

Incidentally, is it possible to report these things to Nintendo? They won't fix it if they don't know.

 

[Psycho_Bayleef]

Note to everybody crying to ban this: have you ever considered not being baby backed pansies? "Oh no a character that dies at 50% has an ohko setup in doubles that I can shield and airdodge, better ban it".
Japan isn't other places. In smash64, they only play dreamland with one counterpick (iirc someone feel free to correct me). If g&w is getting bucket setups, just adapt to it. Arbitrarily banning it is a ****ing awful way to handle it.

 

[The_Altrox]

You can't really call it arbitrary if there's a reason behind it. Whether or not you agree with the reason is one thing, but considering it KO's very early and breaks non-weakened shields, it's an incredibly powerful technique that a lot of people would call game breaking in doubles. And trust me, nobody wants stupid crap ruining a tourney scene.

And Japan isn't the reason behind everybody's decision. I didn't even know that that was true before entering this thread and I already believed that something ought to be done about this. Hopefully, Sakurai or whoever is in charge of putting out patches learns about this.

 

[MarkT]

You can't block it because your shield automatically breaks.
You can't air dodge because the hit box last longer then the dodge itself.
Watch the video. the 3-stock match ends in 17 seconds.
people banned metaknight in brawl for FAR less.

 

[Redd500]

You can't really call it arbitrary if there's a reason behind it. Whether or not you agree with the reason is one thing, but considering it KO's very early and breaks non-weakened shields, it's an incredibly powerful technique that a lot of people would call game breaking in doubles. And trust me, nobody wants stupid crap ruining a tourney scene.

And Japan isn't the reason behind everybody's decision. I didn't even know that that was true before entering this thread and I already believed that something ought to be done about this. Hopefully, Sakurai or whoever is in charge of putting out patches learns about this.

I'm pretty sure they only care about balancing things for 1v1 matches, because it's impossible to balance a video game for every single mode it offers.

 

[The_Altrox]

I'm pretty sure they only care about balancing things for 1v1 matches, because it's impossible to balance a video game for every single mode it offers.

Maybe, but you'd hope they'd recognize that 2 vs. 2 is a close second.

So... is writing letters to Sakurai like writing to Santa?

 

[Redd500]

Maybe, but you'd hope they'd recognize that 2 vs. 2 is a close second.

So... is writing letters to Sakurai like writing to Santa?

But they allowed Oil Panic to fill faster so G&W wouldn't be as bad as before, and since this technique is overpowered because of how fast Oil Panic can fill up, I don't see them removing it.

 

[The_Altrox]

But they allowed Oil Panic to fill faster so G&W wouldn't be as bad as before, and since this technique is overpowered because of how fast Oil Panic can fill up, I don't see them removing it.

Eh, two ways I see it, either nerf the bucket to a point that it's still good, but not God breaking or find a way to make it so that thunder only fills up one segment of the bucket.

 

[SlyChoober]

You'll just get something really silly like a team with a Falco spamming lasers and a Link with Power Bow shooting 20% arrows periodically while two swordsmen alternate disjointed hitboxes. I really don't see that ending well.

The silly team may do just that, but it is possible to get past. It won't be easy and that is what makes it fun, its completely fair too. Its 2 balls of hitboxes going at each other. I will probably get flamed for this but in Playstation All Stars, 2 sword characters going against two drakes who spam the AK can be really tough but not impossible, they do have an advantage but if you're skilled enough you will find a way out of it. I am aware smash and all stars are very different games but the idea is the same. In a 2v2 match you can't let yourself get setup in situations where it becomes difficult to maneuver. If you end up getting caught by the same thing then that means you need to switch up your game, not turn on friendly fire.

 

[Djent]

Note to everybody crying to ban this: have you ever considered not being baby backed pansies? "Oh no a character that dies at 50% has an ohko setup in doubles that I can shield and airdodge, better ban it".
Japan isn't other places. In smash64, they only play dreamland with one counterpick (iirc someone feel free to correct me). If g&w is getting bucket setups, just adapt to it. Arbitrarily banning it is a ****ing awful way to handle it.

GnW and Pika both live well past 50%, but they can kill you at 0%. While I'm not in favor of banning this tactic quite yet, claiming it is an "arbitrary" worry is absolute bull****. The shield/airdodge response is laughable too, because the bucket has a great hitbox and can be combo'd from another move anyway. I can't help but think you're the one having an emotional response to this topic.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Either ban bucket 1 or ban the team. That easy. Anyone trying to claim that doing so isn't justified just doesn't understand the realism of the situation or they're just spreading some liberal hippie BS.

How many teams can end a match in 30 seconds or less consistently besides the one in question?