Pierce wants to talk about Zelda. All come hither

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Dashing FREQUENTLY @ MK is bad. Dashing is not altogether bad. Same as with everything else, mix-ups.

Also, DB1 is relatively safe. Even though the next action has some degree of delay, DB2 threatens your opponent to stay in shield, which lets you Grab or Dtilt.

But anyway, this is a Zelda thread. Perhaps we can talk more about Marth next time I stray to the Marth boards.

Anyway, I see no reason to compare Dark Musician. Your experience with Zelda leads me to believe that your Zelda is probably still more proficient than mine. I've only been using her a couple months.

Fun fact: My little sister mains Zelda, and she never fails to hit me with Sweetspot Fairs or Bairs at the right moment. She also doesn't get caught by airdodge bait and nails me in the chin every time, lmao.

I was always underi the impression that dashing with Marth was bad because of how many options you limit your self to and because Marth can't shield in the initial frames of his dash. If you're going to be Dashing around a lot with marth at my Zelda I'll just dsmash you it beats out almost all your options except for you shielding.

If I didn't fail to land sweet bairs or fairs i'd be happy.

 

[GodAtHand]

Pierce there a tournament in Worcester MA this weekend. Some of NY is going you should see if you can get some of NJ to go as well. It would cool to play a Marth that understands the Zelda match-up. (We only have one who does not quite understand yet.)

 

[Kataefi]

AL try to steer the direction away from marth please because, well, this ain't the marth boards.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Meet Ivysaur.

Ivysaur has an existent poke game (an aerial one for that matter) and Bullet Seed, a better Jab and better tilts. Ivysaur has safe stuff that is allowed to do damage. Zelda fundamentally doesn't have a single safe or reliable move for dealing damage. D-tilt is probably the closest thing she has to that, and it's pretty good, except it only hits low, and Zelda can't realistically cover the other options safely. Razor Leaf and Dins Fire are about equally horrible, although I'd give the slight nod to Razor Leaf when it comes to camping since it's more "spammable".

Ivysaur is also pretty much garbage, but doesn't play solo due to the mechanics of switching, so individual Pokemon are not ranked on the official tier list. Ivysaur alone (without factoring fatigue) imo would probably be the 4th worst character in the game, with Captain Falcon and Link ahead of her, and Ike, Zelda, and Ganondorf behind.

 

[KayLo!]

Ivysaur has an existent poke game (an aerial one for that matter) and Bullet Seed, a better Jab and better tilts. Ivysaur has safe stuff that is allowed to do damage. Zelda fundamentally doesn't have a single safe or reliable move for dealing damage. D-tilt is probably the closest thing she has to that, and it's pretty good, except it only hits low, and Zelda can't realistically cover the other options safely. Razor Leaf and Dins Fire are about equally horrible, although I'd give the slight nod to Razor Leaf when it comes to camping since it's more "spammable".

Ivysaur is also pretty much garbage, but doesn't play solo due to the mechanics of switching, so individual Pokemon are not ranked on the official tier list. Ivysaur alone (without factoring fatigue) imo would probably be the 4th worst character in the game, with Captain Falcon and Link ahead of her, and Ike, Zelda, and Ganondorf behind.

............... *facepalms her brains out*

He was joking. You obviously don't come here often, lol. And also didn't read MrEh's last post.

In any case, @Pierce: I'm interested to know what you think about Zelda's recovery and ledge options -- more so the latter. I mean, FW is what it is...... it's laggy, and there's nothing we can do about that. But once I get to the ledge, I have the hardest time getting my feet back onto the stage without getting tossed back out again.

All of Zelda's ledge options are pretty much punishable on reaction, it seems. I try to mix it up between ledge attacking (under 100%, her ledge attack isn't that bad every once in a while), rolling, regular get up...ing, airdodging, and NLing or fairing. If I know they're going to try to jump at me, I'll nair since it comes out fairly quickly.

But a patient opponent who stands a certain distance from the ledge can just wait, see what I do, and punish accordingly. It's REALLY frustrating, and I'd like to know if you've come up with anything effective (since you probably face better opponents than I do).

 

[#HBC | Scary]

@A2ZOMG: just for the sake of asking, why Ike?

@Pierce: yea, it's a b-reverse. The only thing you really have to fear is UpB afterlag unless you get the ledge. Like DM, I really enjoyed what you said about changing your pace; this is mega important but so is keeping the momentum up.

 

[Darkmusician]

@A2ZOMG: just for the sake of asking, why Ike?

@Pierce: yea, it's a b-reverse. The only thing you really have to fear is UpB afterlag unless you get the ledge. Like DM, I really enjoyed what you said about changing your pace; this is mega important but so is keeping the momentum up.

Indeed. It's one of the more subtle aspects of high level play.

 

[A2ZOMG]

@A2ZOMG: just for the sake of asking, why Ike?

Ike like Zelda is a character that really can do nothing to you if you know what to watch out for. Four out of his five aerials are powershieldable on reaction (and they can never be used to approach because they all suck on normal block anyway), and his "safest" attack, Jab, can be shieldgrabbed consistently at any range (as long as he touches your shield with Jab, and you time it right, and if you're not a tether, you can shieldgrab him out of Jabs even if your grab range is complete crap since he leans in on his Jab).

Ike is also the ONLY character in Brawl (a game where virtually every character is very floaty) who is unable to do two aerials in a fulljump. What this means consequently is that he's the worst juggler in the game and the worst edgeguarder, and generally he's really not able to followup on you at all. His horrible speed on everything makes his Jab cancel game nothing special, since it doesn't lead into anything that will ever kill you, and other characters outdo him in damage dealing most of the time because they actually have reliable options for juggling or following up, or they can camp in some cases. Did I mention that Ike is also the worst character in the game at getting back to the ground? You U-throw him and it's basically free damage (often a regrab) every time. Projectile camping also severely cripples this character.

He's a horrible limited character that has next to no depth. He's only better than Zelda because his recovery is less punishable/gimpable, he's heavier, and because Zelda somehow is actually worse at approaching than Ike (and has a bad shieldgrab).

He's better than Ganondorf because he can at least Jab if his opponent spotdodges, while Ganon can do nothing if his opponent spotdodges on reaction, and of course Ganon's recovery is crap and he's a bunch of fail on shields since his grabs are all easily spotdodged and because everything else sucks on block. If Ganondorf however was able to do something to people who spotdodge, he would be better than both Zelda and Ike, since aside from just failing completely at having any real response to spotdodges, his onstage tools are better and have existent and powerful followups.

At any rate Captain Falcon and Link are both clearly better than the above three mentioned characters. Captain Falcon is a character that can *gasp* approach safely on defenses with well spaced N-airs and B-airs, and sometimes D-airs. His Jab cancel game does similar damage to Ike's, except he has a MUCH better chance of being able to followup into a juggle/edgeguard due to his superior attack speed and mobility, which can and will eventually kill his opponent, albeit at rather high percents. Captain Falcon also has kill moves that are safe on block. U-tilt, D-smash, and B-air. His Up-B out of shield is also a great punish option that does a lot of damage.

Link out of the mentioned characters actually has decently respectable camping and good spacing options. His projectiles are good tools for controlling space and punishing and setting up into other moves for some more damage, and his Z-air is gdlk for zoning. He has a number of ATs that give him much better mobility and punish options than his base attributes would suggest, and while mostly an unsafe move, his D-air is at least a worthwhile ledgetrap option. This character while still horribly gimpable in several situations, with good DI he can survive much longer than the other mentioned characters due to his good momentum cancel.

 

[Kataefi]

A2ZOMG out of curiosity do you have experience with any of the above characters?

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

If you grab, throw them forward off the stage, then run toward them and Uair. MANY, MANY, MANY GOOD PLAYERS WILL JUMP after being thrown forward by Zelda. The reasoning? Why would you try to go for the ledge which Zelda is standing near, when you can just go over her and recover to the stage? Also, you don't want to get hit by a forward air, Usmash, or some other obvious follow up, so players tend to try and jump out of range over these options. They also DO NOT airdodge. Why would you airdodge when you don't perceive the threat of an attack. This would normally only leave you open for attack. It's simply not in most player's habit set to avoid this nature of attack (rising death chase while pseudo recovering)

Awww, cute pierce is learning the basics of what Brawl is really about.

Good job, you can now predict jumps against *******.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I use Ganon, Ike, and Captain Falcon in friendlies. A lot of people on the boards do know me for having a very good Ganon, since I have a lot of vids up of me using him, while I haven't yet saved any vids of my Ike or Captain Falcon.

I'm naturally really good at landing extremely gimmicky moves since my playstyle is heavily mindgame oriented. At this point if I really wanted to, I could probably win tournament sets with these horrible characters since the average player for this game is not very good at all. The horrible performance of the average player in general is in fact why Ike is RIDICULOUSLY overrated. Your average player does a horrible job of deliberately powershielding, establishing basic traps, not making technical errors, and just having bad zoning in general, and Ike LOVES being allowed to capitalize on n00b level play due to his very straightforward game and high reward on individual moves (besides that, virtually every player, INCLUDING MANY MANY PROS jumped onto the Ike bandwagon during Brawl's initial release, thus massively overdeveloping his metagame). Average reaction time (10-12 frames) and having proper knowledge of what Ike does however is why Ike is realistically the third worst character in high level play.

And of course, Ganon and Zelda are also terrible due to their inability to really do anything to a good player.

 

[MrEh]

He was joking. You obviously don't come here often, lol. And also didn't read MrEh's last post.

This.

All of Zelda's ledge options are pretty much punishable on reaction, it seems. I try to mix it up between ledge attacking (under 100%, her ledge attack isn't that bad every once in a while), rolling, regular get up...ing, airdodging, and NLing or fairing. If I know they're going to try to jump at me, I'll nair since it comes out fairly quickly.

What I usually do is either...

A. Get up as soon fast as humanly possible to try and give my opponent less time to react. What option I use is dependent on where my opponent is, but I just make sure I do it fast.

B. Wait a bit on the ledge for some sort of opening. When option A isn't feasible, there's not much else that can be done.

A2ZOMG out of curiosity do you have experience with any of the above characters?

Actual tournament experience? Probably not. He's a known theorycrafter amongst the various boards though.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I have in fact used Ganon in tournament sets before, and the only one of those characters I have not played against in tournament is Link.

Then again that was a long time ago, and I've become a much better player since then.

 

[-Mars-]

Ike is not third worst in the game get outta here with that lmao.

 

[zeldspazz]

............... *facepalms her brains out*

Yet another one to add to the list

 

[MrEh]

Ike is not third worst in the game get outta here with that lmao.

You're absolutely right.

Ike is clearly the worst character in the game.

 

[Icyo]

I'd say that Zelda AND Ike tie for the worst. There are simply no characters worse than them.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ike is not third worst in the game get outta here with that lmao.

Oh right, I forgot to include Solo Popo or Solo Olimar there I guess.

Ike is still complete garbage that can't do anything to anyone good that knows the matchup.

 

[Pierce7d]

Pierce there a tournament in Worcester MA this weekend. Some of NY is going you should see if you can get some of NJ to go as well. It would cool to play a Marth that understands the Zelda match-up. (We only have one who does not quite understand yet.)

lol, this weekend is kinda short notice. Sorry, I've got plans.

Random stuff about Ivysaur

Zelda has Dtilt and Fsmash, which are both HEAVILY rewarding. Also, as I've already stated, I feel Zelda is most efficient when trying to make reads, and then capitalizing. Ironically, this is similar to how I think Sheik should be played as well. Sheik has more tools, and hits more often and softer, Zelda hits less often, but MUCH harder.

............... *facepalms her brains out*

He was joking. You obviously don't come here often, lol. And also didn't read MrEh's last post.

In any case, @Pierce: I'm interested to know what you think about Zelda's recovery and ledge options -- more so the latter. I mean, FW is what it is...... it's laggy, and there's nothing we can do about that. But once I get to the ledge, I have the hardest time getting my feet back onto the stage without getting tossed back out again.

All of Zelda's ledge options are pretty much punishable on reaction, it seems. I try to mix it up between ledge attacking (under 100%, her ledge attack isn't that bad every once in a while), rolling, regular get up...ing, airdodging, and NLing or fairing. If I know they're going to try to jump at me, I'll nair since it comes out fairly quickly.

But a patient opponent who stands a certain distance from the ledge can just wait, see what I do, and punish accordingly. It's REALLY frustrating, and I'd like to know if you've come up with anything effective (since you probably face better opponents than I do).

Well, I rarely actually recover to the ledge unless it's kill percent on FD. If there are platforms, teleport to a platform, it's MUCH harder to read, and provides more mix-up options.

Stuff about low tiers.

I can see how you devised a lot of that theory, but that's not as true as you think in actual play. I do think Ike is bottom 5 though.

Awww, cute pierce is learning the basics of what Brawl is really about.

Good job, you can now predict jumps against *******.

Haha, cute troll is cute too. However, not cute enough to evade my ignore list.

Ike is not third worst in the game get outta here with that lmao.

Perhaps. It is actually possible to powershield his attacks on reaction, but he still does control a lot of space. Most Ike's don't use Quick Draw half as effectively as M2k.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah and last time I saw Vex playing Bowser against M2K's Ike, he somehow jumped right into Ike's F-smash when M2K was charging it on the platform on SV...in an extremely poor attempt to interrupt it with F-air.

I'm not particularly inspired by how other "top level" players deal with M2K's Ike either.

 

[KayLo!]

Can we..... keep this about Zelda, please?

@Pierce: My response to that is that on most stages, even recovering to a platform doesn't do much if the opponent is properly spaced. Granted, I try to recover with FW as little as possible, but if you're forced to use it....... it has a whole half a second of end lag. Even the slowest player can punish that.

You pretty much answered my question by not answering it, though.

 

[MrEh]

You pretty much answered my question by not answering it, though.

Not much can be done unfortunately, lest you unplug your opponent's controller or resort to punching him in the face. Neither is viable really.

 

[KayLo!]

Neither is viable really.

That's what you think...............

 

[Darkmusician]

Not much can be done unfortunately, lest you unplug your opponent's controller or resort to punching him in the face. Neither is viable really.

PhantomX performed the first controller cancel I've ever seen in real life.

Next closest thing was Zaukkien tried to tickle me when I was chaingrabbing his Olimah. lol

 

[MrEh]

That's what you think...............

I think I'll refrain from playing women in brawl now.

PhantomX performed the first controller cancel I've ever seen in real life.

Next closest thing was Zaukkien tried to tickle me when I was chaingrabbing his Olimah. lol

Yeah, PX knows what's up.

Also, Zaukkien tried that? Sounds like our hero alright. lol

 

[Pierce7d]

Yeah, basically, just play patiently, then it all comes down to a good guess with an airdodge or throw an attack. I like to stand a lot when I'm on the edge with any character. It has the least lag, and it's hardest to punish, especially if you're trying to space to cover a lot of options.

Nyrau's isn't terrible either if you save it for unpredictable moments.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

But once I get to the ledge, I have the hardest time getting my feet back onto the stage without getting tossed back out again.

All of Zelda's ledge options are pretty much punishable on reaction, it seems. I try to mix it up between ledge attacking (under 100%, her ledge attack isn't that bad every once in a while), rolling, regular get up...ing, airdodging, and NLing or fairing. If I know they're going to try to jump at me, I'll nair since it comes out fairly quickly.

Not even a mention of ledgejump? True, she ends up above her opponent, but it also gives her surprisingly many options. She can freely adjust her horizontal spacing and regrab the ledge if needed, she can try to hit with a surprise aerial or she can even try to mindgame her way back down with Farore's wind and double jump. Her momentum can also be canceled at any given part of the ledgejump with Nayru's love or Din's fire, even before she leaves the ground.

Nair plainking/rising Nair can also sometimes prove useful when you find yourself hanging from the ledge.

 

[KayLo!]

Not even a mention of ledgejump? True, she ends up above her opponent, but it also gives her surprisingly many options.

Wut the.

Her momentum can also be canceled at any given part of the ledgejump with Nayru's love

NLing

Nair plainking/rising Nair can also sometimes prove useful when you find yourself hanging from the ledge.

If I know they're going to try to jump at me, I'll nair since it comes out fairly quickly.

Did you just..... completely skip my entire post? @.@

Ledgejumping is implied if you're going to airdodge, NL, fair, or nair, all of which I mentioned.

As for ledgejumping into FW..... I do it very, very occasionally, but I almost always regret it. FW has way too much startup. Like I said, that amount of lag can be punished by even the slowest opponent.

The people I play know Zelda well enough that they don't even bother coming off the edge unless they have MK, ROB, or another character who can straight up gimp her. It's way too easy for them to just sit there and punish whatever I do to get back, because everything she can do is laggy as ****.

Imo, the best way to get off the ledge is to mix it up between the normal getup options every character has: regular getups, rolls, and well-timed getup attacks. As far as Zelda-specific tactics go, airdodging, NL, fair, and nair seem to be the best options when your opponent spaces badly or decides to get a bit aggressive or antsy with trying to punish you.

Otherwise, if there are platforms, I FW as far away as possible from where I think they'll go and take it from there.

 

[Meru.]

Why aren't lightning kicks discussed? These things are LOVELY.

What does hither mean btw? Hit her? o.o

 

[KayLo!]

What does hither mean btw? Hit her? o.o

Main Entry: 1hith·er
Pronunciation: \ˈhi-thər\
Function: adverb
Etymology: Middle English hider, hither, from Old English hider; akin to Gothic hidre hither, Latin citra on this side — more at he
Date: before 12th century
: to this place

<invisibletexthere>

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Wut the.

Did you just..... completely skip my entire post? @.@

Oh... so you counted ledgejump automatically to be a part of the other options you mentioned? See, I've always thought about options from the ledge as this:

1. Normal get up
2. Get up attack
3. Roll
4. Ledgejump a.k.a. pressing jump when hanging from the ledge
5. Let go off the ledge + double jump => anything that follows

So, when I saw you mention tactics such as Fair, Nair and NL I thought you meant only using them after letting go and then double jumping. Sorry about the misconception.

If I know they're going to try to jump at me, I'll nair since it comes out fairly quickly.

I admit, I didn't remember this line when writing the last sentence.

 

[KayLo!]

The only one I sometimes drop first for is fairing (so I can get the sweetspot).

Otherwise, I generally don't ledgedrop unless I'm lolplanking. There's really no reason to unless someone's coming down to get you and you wanna try to stage spike or mindgame them or something.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

I've found ledgedrop=>airdodge to be helpful against players who like to try and punish getting up with something strong and laggy like smash attacks. Nair after ledgedropping is also her fastest and "safest" method of offensively getting up from the ledge, although its horrible range makes it usually pretty useless.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

What are your thoughts on Zelda's dthrow and uthrow and Zelda's jab?

 

[ぱみゅ]

Well, I'm a Zelda main, but I'm not very skilled, and I hadn't as much practice as I'd like, but I've been learning a lot with just reading this (I'll try more airdodge tricks later!).

Anyways, just popping those pretty random:
-Zelda's shieldgrab is pretty awful. Certainly has good range, but it's very slow and punishable on wiff...
-Dthrow is a very good positioning tool: when I'm against someone who doesn't know the matchup, they use to think they'll be sent forward, and just DI up. then, I followup to LightningKick, that, btw (for those who didn't knew it), cannot be SDI'd nor DI'd.
-I really can't understand why DF ends in freefall... anyways, the aerial version has too much ending lag, so, If just removed, it will still force to FW, and KayLo said it herself: You FW, you'll be punished.
-Jab comes out fast, has good range, and deals a more-or-so damage, but it's unsafe, and unworthy on the long run.

 

[zeldspazz]

Actually Kyokoro, jab comes out relatively slow in startup, but has a very low cooldown and long range making it very safe on block and a good mixup.

 

[Rion]

Whoa! A very interesting read indeed. Thank you Pierce for taking the time to write this out and stuff! Looking at this makes me kinda wish I still played vBrawl Zelda, though I am pretty much exclusively Brawl+ Zelda nowadays.

However some of these things still apply to Zelda+ so it's all good!

I think for me, the most frustrating things in vBrawl were her Fsmash and Usmash being escapable which is an issue that can't really be dealt with because that's just how they are.

Some characters, like Marth ironically, can simply tumble out of a connected Usmash with ease and are guaranteed a counterattack on Zelda if they input the right DI which honestly really, really annoyed the hell outta me. And Fsmash...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4nuoFfza2w

This video haunts me to this day, haha. Of course this sort of escape isn't 100%, but it's a little bit too much for my liking. Poor Zelda has just terrible luck with multi hits working properly.

Her jab is just weird on connection too but it's not a bad shield poke, at least from the right distance. However it being almost the same speed (frame 11 13 15 hitbox) as her Ftilt (12-14 frame hitbox) is just strange to me. It's cool-down is pretty low though (frame 25 IASA), which is it's saving grace.

I don't know your interest in B+ Pierce, but if you ever "review" Zelda in B+ that'd be pretty cool~ *nudge nudge* Assuming you're even interested in the codeset that is.

Oh, and this thread here has pretty much most of her frame data if that's what you're looking for.:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=218082

 

[spurtz]

I use Nair or B when being attacked during an edgeguard. Otherwise, I would occasionally do something unpredictable and crazy, teleport attack or din's fire, quite risky though, if the enemy is quick in thinking, he will punish you hard, but I like to take risk hehe.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Wait, I'm not the only marth player that's taking an interest in Zelda? Amazing!


One thing though, Zelda's grab, I honestly think it's a matter of MU expirience, cause over time and knowing what to look for, I've managed to trim my reaction time down to about 10 frames for certain things in melee.



That said, I had a thought, the initial frames look a lot like dash attack, we don't have accurate frame data for the dash attack hitbox, but it might outlast some spotdodges.


Also, keep in mind that Zelda is bad against shield, if people overshield she can shieldpoke them, especially fatties.


Powershielding is great for Zelda, while a number of projectiles are still useful for punishing (ex. diddy), comboing (ex. diddy again), space control (ex. ditto, but Falco deserves a major mention because this reason makes falco's projectiles), most projectiles can't reliably pressure shield with consistent powershielding (Pit being an easy exception due to his ability to juke the arrows, forcing you to normal shield or risk getting hit), not having to approach in the beginning helps mitigate her issues to a degree.



Nice to know I'm not the only person who doesn't think Zelda is bottom 3.

 

[MrEh]

Nice to know I'm not the only person who doesn't think Zelda is bottom 3.

I doubt anyone here really considers her bottom 3, but considering her tournament placings, she might as well be.