Pichu's matchups are dumb.

[DerfMidWest]

the chart is a little ******** imo. (there is another topic for this, but its dumb and never finished. And I'm cooler than them anyways )

First discussion: Fox. The chart says its an 80-20 in Foxes favor.
I think its more like a 70-30. Fox has his whole Uthrow->Uair and some onnoying shine combos, but Pichu also combo ***** fox and has a chainthrow and gimps him super easy.

Discuss, then we'll move on to other characters.

 

[KingClubber]

I believe that is wrong to. Pichu has a lot of glaring moves that really messes with fox's game, and has many more juggling options that will eat fox's damage, U-tilt alone is enough to get fox to high levels of damage very quickly.

The problem with the chart is that there are no pichu player that have been that good and proving the chart wrong. The idea of the chart is biased anyway because there's a saying in melee that only good players of said character proves the chart, not the characters. Which is bogus.

Pichu> Fast fallers, and Heavy weighted characters. It's the mid weight, and light weight that gives pichu problems.

The Problem with these fast fallers, and Heavy weighted characters is that they have some pretty high knockback on many of they're attack. So in those match you have to be smart, and kill as fast as possible at all opportunities.

Thats why the metagame of pichu needs to evolve from just shfflc n-air's, after the first 4 time seeing it, they know what you plan on doing, therefore they can punish it, and no one does punishing better then Fox. Which is why the chart is currently is 80-20.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I would **** all of your Pichus with my Fox. Viciously. And show why the matchup is awful. I would also ban FD, the only level where the matchup is 7-3 or whatever optimistic ratio you guys think it is.

 

[Beat!]

Having a chainthrow on Fox isn't worth that much when you're never going to catch him.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Idk, I find fighting fox to be much easier than fighting many other high tiers. Fox is just the perfect weight for comboing and gimps are so easy with him. if you get him below the ledge he's pretty much always dead.

The main problems when fighting fox are that he can combo pichu and his Up through -> Uair is a little annoying, but DI helps get out of that.
He's also faster than Pichu, so pichu can't overwhelm him with speed like he could for some other characters.

Pichu vs fox on FD is pretty good, but i'd also try to take him to battlefield because thats generally one of pichu's better stages imo and Fox's recovery is a bit worse and he can't really ride the wall at all.

 

[KingClubber]

I would **** all of your Pichus with my Fox. Viciously. And show why the matchup is awful. I would also ban FD, the only level where the matchup is 7-3 or whatever optimistic ratio you guys think it is.

Your only saying this because you've never fought a good pichu player, and FD is pichu's worst stage, pichu does better on stage that have multiple platforms to help him avoid getting hit. So banning FD would be pointless, Fox would win that match because there's to much open space.

Having a chainthrow on Fox isn't worth that much when you're never going to catch him.

Same can be said to Fox, Pichu small size isn't just to die faster, it's for escaping narrow cracks that other characters wouldn't be able to. And chain throwing isn't the only option when fighting fox, sigh....

The Complete Metagame of Pichu needs to be rewritten, period. N-air, and chain grabbing isn't pichu's only chance at victory. They're more of the cause of failure then anything, people have to think when playing this game, and fox players do that a lot. Seeing pichu do the same tactic = Fox>Pichu.

Currently there is no good pichu at tournaments so nothing can be proving until then, the match up belongs to fox 80-20.

 

[DerfMidWest]

I never said that Pichu was a better character than fox. The matchup is just not as bad as people say it is. Pichu combos fox really well, fox can kinda combo Pichu. And you shouldn't be just Nairing.... your uair and bair are both good approaches as well, you can also use your fair... but i don't like that as much.

And I don't think FD is pichu's worst stage, I personally like it, especially against ganon. YS is way worse for Pichu... 30% KOs are stupid.
FD has no platforms, and its a little to big to control to well, but jolting is really easy and you can combo well when there are no platforms.

 

[t3h Icy]

Your only saying this because you've never fought a good pichu player

He lives in the same city and plays the best one in the world. (Unknown522)

 

[KirbyKaze]

KingClubber, Pichu doesn't have the combo game or damage output on other levels to match anything Fox does. This is for a few reasons. Most glaringly, his ability to follow people he hits onto platforms (if Fox knows what he's doing) is pretty limited.

I've played probably one of the best Pichus in the world. Granted, it's been some time since we've done that matchup but Pichu seriously doesn't have a good answer to a lot of Fox's stuff. Trouble is, what Fox bothers to learn the Pichu matchup? Usually just generic Fox crap and u-throw combos will get you through the match, just because Fox is conducive to simple play against crappy characters.

I assure you, however, Fox has much gayer things than his generic u-throw combos and Nair. But nobody bothers to work on it and perfect that sort of stuff. That said, when Fox starts really abusing Pichu's awful tech roll, really takes advantage of his pointedly superior movement (agility has nothing on Fox's... everything), and uses moves that prey on Pichu's horrific grab range, Pichu really does fall apart even harder than usual.

 

[Beat!]

Can't Fox just laser camp until ~25% and then space bairs for the rest of the stock? I don't have access to the game right now, but it feels as if Pichu's CC should stop working super early because of how light he is.

 

[KingClubber]

@Kaze

I understand that, the problem is not in fox, he's players, or even pichu. It's pichu players that are the problem.

I bet, if i asked you to point out the usefulness for any attack, or action that fox has. You could give me a detailed explanation about the said attack, and it's many uses.

So far most pichu players, and non pichu players can't do that. They avoid using any electrical attack that may damage them whether it might be useful or not. They began spamming N-air and think it won't go punished in the long run. I understand why they do it, I really do.

I on the other hand believe there is a use for each of pichu's attacks. And i have been discovering the uses of them a bit at a time. I test my theories or asks others to test them for me.

As i said before, we pichu players have no backing. No real proof of anything, a few won matches out of tournament mean nothing to others, more so to the MBR.

Pichu and Kirby are tied for last place, but since Kirby got an higher standard deviation, we decided to rank him above Pichu.

We can't even get video's to learn from, unless by chance someone post on youtube, and we come across it by mistake.

I know this sounds very whiny.

@Beat

I know of him, but does he even play pichu anymore, and he hasn't visited these boards in since I've joined as far as i can tell. The last video post with him playing pichu was over a year ago.

 

[DerfMidWest]

I had a really long rant typed up but then smashboards killed it and I've got to go somewhere so I'll repost it later.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

As i said before, we pichu players have no backing. No real proof of anything, a few won matches out of tournament mean nothing to others, more so to the MBR.



We can't even get video's to learn from, unless by chance someone post on youtube, and we come across it by mistake.

I know this sounds very whiny.

@Beat

I know of him, but does he even play pichu anymore, and he hasn't visited these boards in since I've joined as far as i can tell. The last video post with him playing pichu was over a year ago.

Ness, Kirby, and G&W want to give you a high-five.

 

[Pi]

there's a very distinct and drastic difference in between what the foxes you've played do do
and what they can do


even a really good player has no need to completely and utterly shut you down if he's already better than you and can win without playing 'gay'

 

[Beat!]

Agreed. I'm pretty sure Fox can avoid getting hit at all in this MU if he really wants to.

 

[DerfMidWest]

I don't really think that he can though. even if he's a super campy fox a well placed nair or uair or anything out of agility is going to mess him up, jolts make for good approaches due to the fact that it will make him have to stop moving for a second in order to avoid it. I think you are giving pichu a little less credit than he deserves. Pichu is still going to lose the match to an equally skilled fox. I'm not saying that Pichu is a better character than fox, but I do believe the matchup is 70-30 fox, or at least 75-25. Its not as dominating as many other 80-20s are.

 

[KingClubber]

@ 3

i know that, you asuming something, i don't know what but, yeah i know that. But your forgetting that things have changed, and the always change. When was the last time you've seen a pichu play at a tournament? I don't think there has been a pichu player in tournaments for 3 years now.

Your saying nothing has changed in the last 3 years of melee?

@Beat

I'm starting to wonder if you even know what your talking about, no offense. Pichu is one of the quickest characters in the game, fox couldn't avoid pichu at all unless he plans on SD'ing the whole match. He's an example, do you think fox can avoid C.Falcon, and Pikachu?

I think not.

If so then it would be.

Fox 100-0 everyone.

 

[Beat!]

CF and Pika have larger hitboxes on their attacks, and CF is faster than Fox.

And "not getting hit at all" was an exaggeration. Of course the MU wouldn't look like Fox vs Kirby. Still, though, I don't think Pichu can get around well spaced bairs and uptilts very easily.

I'll concede that my experience with pichu is next to non-existant, though. But I've only stated how I think it would play out.

 

[KingClubber]

so that is just your opinion, that makes much more sense now. Spacing isn't a problem with pichu, he's an "in your face" type of fighter, and has no real reach. But pichu has the odd ability to plow through other attacks, or clash with attack that are strong then his own.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkVyFmVAzfU&feature=player_detailpage#t=594s

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think Pichu's issue is not that he can't hit Fox, it's just that he can't really challenge a lot of Fox's stuff (which is a huge boon for Fox; pretty much every character that can beat him does so because his moves lose in clashes). This, combined with simple stuff (like crouch canceling Pichu's Nairs, using appropriate techs to avoid Uair follows on platforms, etc.) really makes it hard for Pichu to get substantial follows.

I do agree that Pichu's moveset has a lot more complexity than given credit. I've learned a lot about Pichu's Dair in recent times, specifically. And if that move is useful, the world is his oyster! I similarly agree that there's something useful in his projectile, particularly with gimps, certain approaches, combos, etc. Shying away from the electric attacks on the premise of damage is silly; you're limiting a limited character even further by doing so.

However, even with all that... I still think Fox horribly ***** him. Maybe if Pichu had more grab range I would feel differently, or if his Uair did 8% instead of 4%. There's just too much awkward limitations that come up with some of the mechanics his moves employ, and that's problematic when you're already deprived of options and answers as a result of poor range.

At least Pichu is better than Kirby and Bowser, though.

 

[KingClubber]

The damage ratio is an on and off thing, which is why i like Pichu. He sense he doesn't have a lot of high damage output, i can plan my steps more slowly into set-up. Pichu's only real weakness is really just his reach, but pichu players has to over come that by being a step ahead of his enemy, and never becoming predictable. Once Pichu's loses control of the fight, it's ridiculously hard to take control of the fight back.

Pichu players seem to become frantic once they're behind stocks, they loses themselves and trying to kill the enemy as fast a possible, and end up taking to much damage in the end. Just like Fox, a prefect Pichu is an untouchable Pichu. If Pichu can't be touch the damage output he does to himself wouldn't matter.

I know that sound impossible looking at high levels of play, but that would be the peak of pichu's skill. I think the farthest Pichu would ever make it mid tier boarder line higher tier.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zb326Jk-le4

The is currently the highest level of gameplay on video we have right now on Pichu which is old now, im always pushing forward with new ideas.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I don't think having poor damage output can be twisted into an advantage, no matter how you word it. It would be better if he had 50%+ combos consistently, instead of 17-35% combos. You could still plan your steps or setups even if he did more damage.

His poor range is a problem, yes. While I agree that it's a weakness more manageable than, say, Kirby's movement game altogether, outplaying your opponent is a poor answer. Predictability and planning ahead are player traits, not something Pichu comes equipped with. I would also say as a character he's not exactly conducive to tons of mixups, simply because his aerial game is so linear and simple (in terms of his moves' ranges, priority, etc). His ground game is overall very unimpressive too; provided you know how to deal with it. It's really easy to figure out where Pichu needs to be to hit someone, and where he's weak.

A perfect Pichu is a poor route to take this discussion because humans are imperfect. This game has oodles of room for perfection that is unattainable by humans (human reaction time and technical ability are two big factors that make such talk irrelevant). Bowser, according to some, is untouchable in perfect play because of some stupid ledgestall shenanigans he has. Should Bowser, therefore, be moved up? No, clearly not. Because that peak is impossible. It's irrelevant when discussing human play. The same applies to perfect Pichu.

I am fairly sure Unknown's Pichu is significantly better than the one in that video. Unknown almost got 1st seed in his R1 pool at APEX with Pichu (he still got 1st seed but he used Fox vs Banks' Sheik I think). Tournament wins are significantly more valuable to me than combo videos. And I'm also fairly sure the little tricks and gimmicks Unknown's told me about (and shown me) throughout the years are way more useful than the agility spam in that video...

 

[DerfMidWest]

Yea... the one in shenanigans is not the best Pichu, but he has a pretty sexy upB. I love that video.

but back to the point, Pichu fox matchup is one of his easier high tier matchups imo. A 70-30 is appropriate because while fox will still beat Pichu pretyy bad, Pichu can still punish a fox and gimp him with ease. Fox is just perfect for Pichu. Pichu will combo him well, chaingrab/grab combo, etc.

The matchup just isn't as bad as you seem to think it is, noted, I would not like to get matched up with a fox who does know the pichu matchup well, he'd beat me... but not to the point where I'm totally defenseless (assuming we are both of equal skill of course).

Pichu/fox is one of the matchups I believe is incorrect. Its still not a good matchup, its just not as bad as an 80-20. I understand what you are saying, but I still disagree, Pichu can still approach and punish a fox, and, as you said, no fox is perfect, so there will be chances for Pichu to punish fox.



EDIT:
@ Clubah.... I don't see Pichu rising above link... what are you talking about "borderline hightier"? I agree that he's underrated... but not to that point <_<

 

[KirbyKaze]

I already admitted that Fox will get hit in this matchup. The disparity, however, lies in the quality of hits each character can get. Pichu has to hit Fox too many times and doesn't have enough reliable combo starters if Fox knows what to watch for and how to DI them. Fox, conversely, not only has way more potential to actually hit Pichu, but he also gets the benefit of Pichu having horrific techs, some moves that induce auto-knockdown to force him to use those techs, throw combos that work on every level, and Pichu's a reasonable weight for simple air combos. Toss in that Pichu dies at stupid low percents and... it's really not hard to shut out a Pichu. Or grossly outpace him.

 

[KingClubber]

Completely different opinions on both matters, so i will leave it here and agree to disagree.

 

[Summonedfist]

Your only saying this because you've never fought a good pichu player, and FD is pichu's worst stage, pichu does better on stage that have multiple platforms to help him avoid getting hit

looool, reading this felt like getting trolled hard

fox benefits from platform stages more than pichu would ever benefit on them.

 

[SnakeMan]

I gotta at least give props to kingclubber for playing devil's advocate in this conversation, even if it may be a moot point considering your talking about the currently accepted no. 1 character versus the "accepted" no. 26. Lol

I wouldnt say its quite 80-20, but, man, its a tough matchup.

 

[SnakeMan]

So... We are assuming that the fox player and the pichu player are of equal skill level?

Hopefully one day we will see two players of said description duke it out in a tournament setting. Until then, who really knows?

There is def some untapped potential with pichu, while I think most of fox's meta has probably already been seen.

That said. . Still a ridiculous matchup :-(

 

[DerfMidWest]

I don't think you are experienced enough with pichu then if you are saying that (@ Snakey)
I don't really see the matchup as ridiculous. there are other 80-20s (I'm referring to the stupid outdated chart from '07) that are much more 1 sided than Pichu/fox. i.e. Ganon/Sheik, kirby/fox, Pichu/Sheik

 

[KirbyKaze]

I would refrain from commenting on matchups you don't really know. Reading your other ratios, it's clear you don't understand the other characters. Stick to talking about Pichu's stuff and leave Kirbs and Ganon alone

 

[DerfMidWest]

I'm just saying... I feel as though those are more deserving of 80-20 than the pichu fox matchup...

anyways, I think that I do sound a little hypocritical when I say that.

either way, should we move on to the Falco/Pichu match up?



EDIT: at kaze, with the whole Kirby/Fox I was remembering things talked about in this thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=300988
and just the matchup chart and other things I've heard about that matchup... as for Ganon I just always heard that sheik ***** him super hard and such.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Fox Kirby is actually impossible if Fox knows how to do it. He needs the algorithm. Once he has that, and some button dexterity, Kirbs is screwed!

Sheik Ganon is almost certainly closer than Fox Pichu. If you're going to argue that Pichu has tools that put the screws to Fox on occasion (which he doesn't but that's neither here nor there) then Ganon has artillery that Sheik has no answer for, and causes her to quiver in fear. Which is also untrue, but Ganon actually has some stuff that looks remotely threatening to Sheik (legit death CG on most levels, more priority when his moves are out, breaks CC easily, safe on block with spacing/timing, always wins clashes if Sheik is poorly positioned [read: above], etc).

 

[DerfMidWest]

idk, i just know that ganons hate the sheik matchup... but w/e

but anyways, Pichu/Fox is 70-30 imo (as if you don't know that by now) or 75-25 at the worst. its just not as bad as an 80-20.

However Falco... the chart says its a 70-30, I believe its an 80-20 or 75-25 because falco's lasers simply prevent Pichu from approaching then he can get some **** combos on pichu. Pichu can punish falco, like he can fox (a little worse than fox imo) and if pichu knocks the falco off the stage the falco is pretty much dead. Basically, its very similar to the pichu/fox matchup except that falco's lasers are quiet obnoxious.

However, my friend who is a falco player argues that its a 60-40 because Falco is perfect for all of Pichu's combos and gimps and etc. his terrible recovery allows pichu to get gimp kills at like 30 or 40%
He says that while falco's lasers are annoying and prevent pichu from approaching, they do that to everybody else too.

I disagree with him because really its just easy for falco to cover all of pichu's options and just pretty much **** him better than fox.

 

[DerfMidWest]

nobody wants to discuss falco at all?
thats no fun.

 

[KingClubber]

Until my pichu is good enough to beat my falco i have nothing to say.

 

[SnakeMan]

Ehmm... I WOULD but, admittidly i never play as falco, and just recently picked up pichu, so... Maybe kirbykaze, grim, or clubber will prolly have some good discussion.

I will have alot to chime in about marth, gw, yunglink!

 

[KirbyKaze]

I don't play Falco.

On paper it looks like Falco's Dair beating Pichu's Nair fairly cleanly (barring some serious positional shenanigans on the part of Pichu) is annoying. The fact that he can chase Pichu with nothing but Dair because of his abysmal techs also sounds dreadful. U-tilt, Nair, and Bair also do a good job of stuffing approaches. Gimmicky stuff like F-tilt also seem upgraded for Falco because of Pichu's awful range.

Toss in lasers and that Pichu's bad techs enable Falco some liberties with landing kill moves he doesn't normally have and... yeah it seems pretty bad. Pichu's only real boons are that perfectly timed U-tilt eats Falco's Dair, and Uair trades / beats it sometimes. I just assume FD is banned in general so he can't CG, and proper DI (and other stuff) removes most of Pichu's combo game with platforms, so the damage disparity seems pretty rough. Falco should never be b-thrown (between lasers, Pichu's non-existent grab range, and the Shine? There is literally no reason to be b-throw gimped).

I also can't imagine Pichu likes how CC Shine limits a lot of his approaches.

I'm not sure how Falco's throws work vs Pichu. If any of them combo (legitimately or otherwise) then that's fucking horrible.

I dunno. It seems somewhere between horrible and tremendously horrible. Likely worse than Fox. But I really have no idea, as I don't play Falco, and most of this is just off the top of my head.

 

[DerfMidWest]

What Pichu does have going for him in this matchup is the ridiculously easy gimps/edgegaurds and his chaingrab as well as easy uair combos.
I believe both bair and uair will beat out falco's dair is they are timed/positioned right (uptilt as well)
I also find falco to be easier to shield pressure than allot of other characters.

Nair is able to beat out falco's dair, but it has to be timed/positioned right...
Pichu is still able to grab falco (regardless of the shine) if he jolt/grabs or uair/grabs falco, but the range does make this harder

the real thing is the lasers. they are a problem for pichu and completely destroy his approach because pichu either has to play right in your face or camp with jolts, he can't really do either well against falco.

I feel like even though falco combos well with platforms that its better for pichu to play against falco on stages with platforms because he can get around the lasers and Pichu's got those upB shenanigans to get away from falco easier and kinda work his way into an advantageous position.

I feel like the falco matchup is kinda bad for pichu, but at the same time he can punish falco hard with his easy combos and easy gimps. from watching pichu/falco matchups, I think the matchup is in falco's favor (of course), but its still not completely dominating.

I could post some of the Pichu/Falco matches later, but i don't really have allot of time now.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Fox: 80:20
Falco: 70:30
Jigglypuff: 65:35
Sheik: 90:10
Marth: 70:30
Peach: 80:20
Captain Falcon: 90:10
Ice Climbers: 100:0
Dr. Mario: 70:30
Ganondorf: 90:10
Samus: 70:30

Quite generally put, I despise discussing match-ups. I will offer these two sentences of advice to everyone else in this discussion, though:

To my fellow Pichu players (mainly Aesir): Remember, when you are considering each character's options you also have to take into account how relevant they are. Long story short, a good Fox shouldn't be getting grabbed or even hit very often against a Pichu of equal skill.

To non-Pichu players: Don't underestimate him, and make sure you understand how the recent advancements in Pichu's movement game (due to perfect Agility) greatly affect some of his top tier match-ups before discussing them. Lastly: Don't assume that Pichu always has to approach either.

Ta-ta.

 

[DerfMidWest]

holy **** I was so dumb in 2011.
Apologies to anyone who has ever read this dribble.