[Philosophy Debate] Non-GameCube Controllers.

[Dragoon Fighter]

I know most people who run tournaments only allow unmodified Nintendo approved gamecube controllers. Do you think however that that should be the only type of controller allowed? For example, I just bought a converter that can allow me to play a unmodified PSX or PS2 Controller on the Nintendo Wii or Gamecube. Should other controllers get consideration for being tournament legal, or should only the controllers that came with the system be allowed?

I can see one argument being that if people have different controllers, factors other then the stage and character match ups would be inadvertently be factored into the game. Hence why modifying a GameCube controller is cheating, for example if you remove the spring on the L-Button of your GameCube controller, it turns it into more of a button and less like a spring thus makes it easier to wavedash and Power shield. On the other hand, if the controller (for example my PS2 controller that can play on the GameCube.) is unmodified, but still has some advantages should it be allowed or is it in the same category as cheating?

I would like to bring in an example from another smash game in particular playing SSB64 Online. One can use many controllers with the PC. While the n64 Controller is the most common their is a healthy variety. Some one playing with a keyboard are severally disadvantaged then compared to someone with a controller of any type really. Does that however invalidate the match? Does it make it to where if Person X faced Person Y and they had different controllers that because Person Y cheated because he/she had the advantage, or does that not make too much of a difference, regardless of if person Y was clearly better anyway?

So that brings us back to the usage of non-GameCube controller to play Super Smash Bros. Melee, do you think it is right for someone to use an alternate controller? Personally I am having troubles taking one way or the other in this debate right now, which is why I now ask this question of you.

 

[Metal Reeper]

I don't think anyone would mind. A lot of players have modded controllers. I also think it would be a harder with a ps2 controller because you wouldn't be able to light shield. and IDK PS2 controller would be weird for me for melee.

 

[Shoopman]

I tried out my PS3 controller on Dolphin just to see how it would feel and I must say it was very weird. The right joystick is huge compared to the gamecube and it made c-sticking aerials awkward to do. Also your hand is oriented differently on the controller such that instead of rocking your thumb back and forth to dash dance, it became more of a push-pull motion (if you have a PS2 try it out, its weird). An advantage though would be the lack of springs in the shoulder buttons, possibly increasing tech skill and ability to powershield, but also prohibiting light shielding.

I use my PS3 controller for Smash 64 online, but IMO using it for melee is out of the question. I'm not saying it should be banner or anything, I'm just saying that it wouldn't make any sense because I think the gamecube controller is much better.

 

[TheDekuNut]

unless you macro things like infinite fox shine --- no problemo. but that would be coo

 

[Roneblaster]

keyboard and mouse is the best controller.

(except for fighting games)

 

[Cemetery]

Why would you not want a first-party Gamecube Controller? They're unparalleled in terms of quality.

I also don't think this is particularly philosophical. More like an issue of ethnics.

 

[stelzig]

keyboard and mouse is the best controller.

(except for fighting games)

(and racing games)

 

[Signia]

(and racing games)

And every other arcade game.

Wouldn't light shielding be possible on a PS3 controller? The shoulder buttons are analog, unlike the 360 triggers. I would still prefer 360 controller as their stick positions are more similar to gamecube's. Also, you can still light shield with shield+z -> let go of shield.

"Why would you not want a gamecube controller?" The gamecube controller is very strange and awkward to those unfamiliar with it. The giant shoulder buttons and the odd button shapes and sizes not to mention the strange stubby right stick are all unappealing to those used to the latest controllers. Not everyone grew up with these abortions.

 

[shawz]

imo it's fine in the case that GC controllers are the still the best controllers.

it will be awkward and game changing if another controller starts to be used at top levels because it is superior. i don't want to force people to buy another controller because it is more effective then a GC controller

 

[Cemetery]

Oh, I see. People may not be accustomed, but over time, Gamecube controllers will probably turn out to be worth the switch.

For 64, it depends, and I'll assume he was just asking for a general opinion about whether modding was acceptable.

 

[Signia]

imo it's fine in the case that GC controllers are the still the best controllers.

it will be awkward and game changing if another controller starts to be used at top levels because it is superior. i don't want to force people to buy another controller because it is more effective then a GC controller

In other fighting game communities, both arcade sticks and pads (this what the call controllers) are used. Most of the time, arcade sticks cost more than the game they play. People who want to play on stick simply buy a nice $100 stick, and those who prefer pad get used to it. Despite the huge difference in the two different input devices, both are still used in high level play. There are plenty of successful players that use pad, and there are many players out there that swear it's better than the stick for them.

So if you weren't stuck in the smash bubble you'd know that it would NOT be awkward or game changing to have different controllers.

 

[CloneHat]

Gamecube controllers are just really good in general. I can't think of any other controllers as well suited to the game.

 

[Mooo]

Gamecube controllers are just really good in general. I can't think of any other controllers as well suited to the game.

Basically this. There are other controllers, oviously, that would work and that one could play with, but the Gamecube controller is really good for high level Melee (for example the C-Stick and B button have short distance, the A Button is in the center between jumps and b and also has relatively short distance to the C-Stick, large, analog shoulder buttons that work really well when you're used to it, because you just have to straighten your finger and you dont have to actually shape the fingers like an inverse L to press the buttons)
Then there also is lag that some of the options may have, not every converter is lag free and 1 frame input difference in Melee is like a lot.

 

[Cemetery]

Gamecube controllers are just really good in general. I can't think of any other controllers as well suited to the game.

This. Also add the fact most of us here grew up playing smash on a Gamecube controller anyways.

 

[Jonas]

Any controller should be fine as long as it isn't programmable or doesn't have turbo. Removing springs should also be okay, because it's more of a preference hack (and who the h*** is gonna check anyway lol).
Just look at fighting game communities with a preference for arcade stick. Most serious players mod it with better parts (such as sticks and buttons from Sanwa) and some players even build their own custom arcade sticks. The only rule is that the stick shouldn't let you use macros or turbo, and I don't see why it should be any different for Melee.

 

[Hydro_Smasher]

palying in tournament with the japanese ASCII keyboard controller is awesome off the hook. I agree with 90% of peeps who say the gamecube controller is solid.

 

[azianraven]

I can't personally see myself using anything other than the GC controller. I have been using it since launch.

But I remember a friend asking me if an arcade stick would be better for melee. I told him a straight up no.

If someone was to bring one though, I wouldn't mind.

 

[Bones0]

I can't think of any controllers that would make gameplay seem unfair, but I'm not sure I would be okay if someone was using a controller where buttons are in drastically different locations to make things easier. Like if someone was using a PlayStation controller and used the extra shoulder button for SHing. They'd be able to do things really easily that would normally be very difficult because they would not have to sacrifice other hand movements (to jump now, you either have to sacrifice time to input attacks from A, B, and C-stick, or you have to use the control stick which makes DIing and using aerials with A/Z much harder or even impossible).

 

[LLDL]

There's not really much of a debate here. You can use any controller that you want in tournament as long as it doesn't have auto-fire/other functions that could allow you to cheat.

 

[Biglard]

One of my purposes in life is being able to play Melee with my feet.

I realized very early in my quest to achieve this that the GC controller was not really adapted to the morphology of my feet. That's why I have in mind to create a GC controller adapted to my feet.

This way I can play against myself, or team with myself, and become the first team containing only one player.

But if you say modified controllers are not allowed in tournaments, then there is no point.

 

[Ghostbone]

and become the first team containing only one player.

Too late, anyone can already team with themselves if Masterhand is on their team.
(as 3rd port always controls him)

 

[Rollz]

I have had some 3rd party controllers where the Z button had a little more pop. Thats all though.

 

[joeplicate]

One of my purposes in life is being able to play Melee with my feet.

I realized very early in my quest to achieve this that the GC controller was not really adapted to the morphology of my feet. That's why I have in mind to create a GC controller adapted to my feet.

This way I can play against myself, or team with myself, and become the first team containing only one player.

But if you say modified controllers are not allowed in tournaments, then there is no point.

!!!!!!!


this is amazing hahahahhaa

 

[BigD!!!]

you know, now that i think about it

i cant think of a mod you could really implement into a controller that would make you better at the game

so basically, im voting for a reverse on controller modding bans

allow any controller someone can bring, just so long as they dont john about their ****ty controller they built in their basement after they lose

 

[Massive]

There is really no reason not to allow different controller configurations as long as there is no move macroing.

One of my purposes in life is being able to play Melee with my feet.

I realized very early in my quest to achieve this that the GC controller was not really adapted to the morphology of my feet. That's why I have in mind to create a GC controller adapted to my feet.

This way I can play against myself, or team with myself, and become the first team containing only one player.

But if you say modified controllers are not allowed in tournaments, then there is no point.

This actually sounds awesome. I might try to build something like this if I get bored.

 

[Zodiac]

Yea, no one would care if you got a first part ps2 controller to play gamecube games with. And no one would remove the springs in melee anyway because of light shielding, in fact it would be the ps2 controller user that was at a disadvantage because those shoulder buttons are not pressure sensitive.

 

[Dr_Strangelove]

What about keyboards? You get an insane boost to your DI, but there are loads of techniques that just aren't possible. What do you all think of them being used in competitive play?

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

What about keyboards? You get an insane boost to your DI, but there are loads of techniques that just aren't possible. What do you all think of them being used in competitive play?

I am unaware of a PC Keyboard to NGC/Wii Converter. Unless this is an online melee tournament (You know the ones that do not exist yet.) I do not see anyone bringing a keyboard to a tournament anytime soon. As epic is that would be (It would only be epic if they are winning.)

 

[ETWIST51294]

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

Lol, Never mind I was wrong. Wow though, I would love to see someone use that at tournament.

 

[stelzig]

^Someone played with that thing at berlin calling, lol.

 

[keeper]

I've never seen anyone check or give a crap about having a modded GCN controller at a tournament. I think the distinction is only if it gives a clear advantage to a player would someone really care (like if someone got really good with using turbo buttons and macro buttons to set-up things automatically). All third party GCN controllers truly are garbage as is.

 

[NeutralDamage]

Some day Nintendo is going to end the production of gamecube controllers, and that is pretty much the starting point for the end of melee. Because controllers tend to elapse fast when playing melee. Just wondering what do you guys gonna do then?

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

Some day Nintendo is going to end the production of gamecube controllers, and that is pretty much the starting point for the end of melee. Because controllers tend to elapse fast when playing melee. Just wondering what do you guys gonna do then?

I doubt the end of game cube controllers are going to be the end of melee. Just look at SSB64's community there are still third party people that (For a price of course) Make Nintendo 64 controllers and for many users they play with different controllers entirely. Plus for those who take good care of there controllers they could have a melee controller years after Nintendo stops production. It will have some impact sure, but it would not be all that bad.

 

[Quic]

Some day Nintendo is going to end the production of gamecube controllers, and that is pretty much the starting point for the end of melee. Because controllers tend to elapse fast when playing melee. Just wondering what do you guys gonna do then?

I'll probably end up buying 3-4 white controllers, which will last me another decade or so.

 

[Hydro_Smasher]

I hate every single type of third party controller. its either too big around, or the buttons aren't the same.
I've had my best gamecube controller ever since I got my cube in 2003, thing is amazing. if you think about it, a controller is like a samurai's sword. and controllers are honestly kinda expensive imo, $15 for a used official controller at gamestop, and it may or may not even be good. in which case, I'd have to take it apart and clean it / paint it to my liking.

 

[keeper]

Some day Nintendo is going to end the production of gamecube controllers, and that is pretty much the starting point for the end of melee. Because controllers tend to elapse fast when playing melee. Just wondering what do you guys gonna do then?

Spare parts from old controllers or ordered online, buying good ones from friends, and tri-wings.

 

[MTKO]

The great thing about the white controllers is that the joystick mechanism is much more easily repairable and replaced than the other controllers. The joystick is generally the first thing to go, and since it's an easy fix usually, it should be an issue to keep that controller for quite a while. And when the rubber piece comes off there's a way to make a new one. And then when all the controllers and cubes are finally gone, we can just play on the computer (better ones years from now) and an emulator like for 64 (a better one), with other controllers or our keyboards.