Petitioning Nintendo: Develop a Gamecube controller style Wii U controller

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Fixed that post.

You're still wrong, as the Melee community is a huge part of the fanbase. Having a community where we have thousands of videos online, hundreds of thousands of viewers, players who protested against Nintendo to see the game being played and enough players to donate 95,000 dollars to simply play the game is huge, maybe not in comparison to those who buy the game just to play for a short period of time, but it is still large. The fact that the game is still being played so much to this day is a testament to that

 

[Johnknight1]

Mario Party destroys relationships; Smash Brothers re-bonds them.

How did we get to smashboards :I But nobody/few bought 64 to play competitively, it all started casual and it did fine, thus getting the "All mighty perfection that is Melee" /sarcasm

First off, there were small (what we now call smashfests) "get together's" of people who thought there were good, as well as actual tournaments. The tournament scene for Smash 64 has never been huge (at least offline), but it has existed since the launch of the game

Also, over 3 million copies of Smash 64 were sold, and it was a surprise success, which is why Melee was made as a (then) launch title for the GameCube with a huge budget (for the time).

Oh, and Sakurai does consider Melee the best entry in the franchise thus far and the most boundary pushing game as well fyi.

While I'm at it, the fact that hundreds of thousands of people tuned in to watch the finals of a 12 year old game is a testament to Melee and Melee's development staffs' success, as well as the appreciation of the game as a competitive, enjoyable, and entertaining game to both play and watch.

I mean, how many 12 year old CONSOLE games would even 1,000 people watch on a livestream=???

 

[mimgrim]

Oh, and Sakurai does consider Melee the best entry in the franchise thus far and the most boundary pushing game as well fyi.

Can I have a source for that please? :/

 

[nessokman]

Mario Party destroys relationships; Smash Brothers re-bonds them.


First off, there were small (what we now call smashfests) "get together's" of people who thought there were good, as well as actual tournaments. The tournament scene for Smash 64 has never been huge (at least offline), but it has existed since the launch of the game

Also, over 3 million copies of Smash 64 were sold, and it was a surprise success, which is why Melee was made as a (then) launch title for the GameCube with a huge budget (for the time).

Oh, and Sakurai does consider Melee the best entry in the franchise thus far and the most boundary pushing game as well fyi.

No, I highly doubt there were tournaments in the first 3 months of release. :I
of course, i never said it sold badly, i said it did well enough to get a sequel. Of course a sequel is made when one game is good.

as far as the "Most boundary pushing" That is once again subjective, it is your opinion as it can't be proven as fact......

 

[Double Helix]

Yeah man, a minority can be a huge part of a fanbase. 49% is a minority of a group split into two.

I don't know the number for the Japanese streams, but Melee's stream rivaled Marvel's and Street Fighter's streams in America during EVO. Even a large number of people watching Apex consider themselves a part of the Smash competitive community (I am willing to guess).

Either way, we are a huge part of the sales, whether a minority or majority.

 

[Wario Bros.]

*Sees what this thread has turned into*

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

No, I highly doubt there were tournaments in the first 3 months of release. :I
of course, i never said it sold badly, i said it did well enough to get a sequel. Of course a sequel is made when one game is good.

as far as the "Most boundary pushing" That is once again subjective, it is your opinion as it can't be proven as fact......

http://www.1up.com/news/masahiro-sakurai-reflects-super-smash

Also, you like to use the word "subjective" a lot, but in a way that you feel you can simply disregard someones argument and back your own. Your statement "I highly doubt there were tournaments in the first 3 months of release" is also subjective.

Super Smash Bros. Melee is the most technically demanding and boundary pushing installment in the franchise. This is a fact.

This thread wasn't even about Melee vs Brawl in the first place, and the fact that it's still here is ridiculous because you can play Brawl with the GameCube controller.

 

[Double Helix]

I was actually about to point that out. I guess that, based on this petition, Brawl is automatically superior to Smash64 because a Gamecube controller is an option for input, but Brawl is inferior to Melee because Melee was made for the Gamecube controller. Right? My logic is foolproof. Right?

@Eternal: It's not subjective, it is just lazy. He doesn't know so he is making a guess to that, if true, supports his argument. I don't know if it is true either, so I can't call him wrong.

 

[Ulevo]

Can I have a source for that please? :/

Johnknight1 is misinterpreting, or exaggerating. Sakurai's exact wording was that he believed Melee was the sharpest in the series. Not the best.

 

[Double Helix]

Dude...what they really need is a power glove for Smash4. You know...like the NES had. That would make Smash4 the sharpest in the series.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Yeah you're right. Little to none is known about Smash 64's initial impact as a competitive fighter, and for all we know it may have taken some time to establish given that we didn't have memory cards and turning off items was an unclockable feature, they could have used items in tournament for all we know.

Either way, i'm honestly all for either having a GameCube (or GameCube-esq) controller for smash, if not, I will use another controller. I honestly want a GC controller remade not only for smash but also for virtual console games. Some games like Super Mario Sunshine need the GameCubes special triggers unless they can make it work somehow.

 

[nessokman]

http://www.1up.com/news/masahiro-sakurai-reflects-super-smash

Also, you like to use the word "subjective" a lot, but in a way that you feel you can simply disregard someones argument and back your own. Your statement "I highly doubt there were tournaments in the first 3 months of release" is also subjective.

Super Smash Bros. Melee is the most technically demanding and boundary pushing installment in the franchise. This is a fact.

This thread wasn't even about Melee vs Brawl in the first place, and the fact that it's still here is ridiculous because you can play Brawl with the GameCube controller.

ok so let me get you a definition-

Subjectivity, a subject's personal perspective, feelings, beliefs, desires or discovery, as opposed to those made from an independent, objective, point of view

I said I highly doubt there were tournaments in the first 3 months. No? let me help you
I highly doubt there were tournaments in the first 3 months

Maybe that helps you. I said I meaning that is how I think or feel. Reread it a few times if it hasn't gotten to you yet, I'll wait.....

This is subjective

Super Smash Bros. Melee is the most technically demanding and boundary pushing installment in the franchise. This is a fact.

NOT true, as what you consider technically demanding may differ from other people. That is opinion not fact

B VS. M debates are everywhere...might as well go with it

 

[Ulevo]

Something to note on the notions of initial sales versus the majority or minority a game caters to. Brawl (and Smash in general) is represented as a game that has a large majority of its sales attributed to a casual player base. While I don't disagree that this is almost certainly the case, I think most people underestimate just how many consumers happen to be competitive Smash players.

Marvel vs Capcom 3 for example is a game tailored and geared towards the competitive crowd. Sure, casuals will enjoy it, but they're not the primary focus. And yet Melee, a game in a series catered to a casual demographic, got almost the same number of viewers tuning in on stream as MvC3. I think that says something. Who knows how many people are part of or connected to the competitive scene.

As far as the controller thing is concerned, I'd prefer a GC controller, but most people will adapt if they like the game enough.

This is subjective
NOT true, as what you consider technically demanding may differ from other people. That is opinion not fact

B VS. M debates are everywhere...might as well go with it

This isn't subjective. It's pretty much the truth. Even the developer himself admits to this, so I don't know why this is even argued over.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

ok so let me get you a definition-

Subjectivity, a subject's personal perspective, feelings, beliefs, desires or discovery, as opposed to those made from an independent, objective, point of view

I said I highly doubt there were tournaments in the first 3 months. No? let me help you
I highly doubt there were tournaments in the first 3 months

Maybe that helps you. I said I meaning that is how I think or feel. Reread it a few times if it hasn't gotten to you yet, I'll wait.....

This is subjective
NOT true, as what you consider technically demanding may differ from other people. That is opinion not fact

B VS. M debates are everywhere...might as well go with it

Maybe if you would deliver a stronger foundation of your argument as to why it is subjective, then maybe I would care. But thanks for telling me the definition, as I clearly am incapable of using google.

You've been throwing around the word way too much, and quite frankly it is lazy. As for Melee, it is the most technically demanding in the series in comparison to the other games. From a technical standpoint this is true considering the game has one frame inputs and requires a greater deal of reflexes than the other games.

And you're right, Melee vs Brawl debates are everywhere, but rekindling it in a thread where there is no specific side is asking for trouble. It doesn't matter if it's occurring every where else on the forum. Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[Double Helix]

In the B vs. M debates, Smash64 wins because they aren't bragging about their game being superior, they just play the ****ing game. I like Brawl. I like Melee. I like Smash64. Melee is my Smash of choice. The general consensus is that Melee is more technically demanding. Calling that untrue is just ignorance on your part. A question of which is a better measurement of skill is a valid argument because there are many things that are classified as skill. I honestly think that Brawl has a better chance to grow as a game due to its lacking of tech skill...you know...compared to Melee. Melee players have to focus a lot on tech skill before they can develop as a fighting game player. What is considered "the basics" of each game is different, and so are the intricacies. I could never be good at Brawl from a competitive standpoint. The physics are different, shielding is different, and stage position is handled differently. Basically no Smash game is better than another, they just emphasize different skills and have different approaches to the same fundamentals.

Smash64: dropped a combo? you are dead
Melee: miss an L-cancel? you are dead
Brawl: suck at neutral game? you are dead

 

[nessokman]

Edited for accidental triple post caused by horrible computer

 

[nessokman]

Maybe if you would deliver a stronger foundation of your argument as to why it is subjective, then maybe I would care. But thanks for telling me the definition, as I clearly am incapable of using google.

You've been throwing around the word way too much, and quite frankly it is lazy. As for Melee, it is the most technically demanding in the series in comparison to the other games. From a technical standpoint this is true considering the game has one frame inputs and requires a greater deal of reflexes than the other games.

And you're right, Melee vs Brawl debates are everywhere, but rekindling it in a thread where there is no specific side is asking for trouble. It doesn't matter if it's occurring every where else on the forum. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Your opinion is it is the most demanding. That is something that can't be proven regardless. What you experience is different from other people, and because it can't be proven, this topic will never freaking end.


As far as the melee vs. brawl..

 

[nessokman]

Edited for triple post

 

[Ulevo]

Your opinion is it is the most demanding. That is something that can't be proven regardless. What you experience is different from other people, and because it can't be proven, this topic will never freaking end.

Or you can go the quantitative route and prove that because Melee effectively has more mechanics that you need to learn and master in order to compete with your peers, it definitively demands more out of the player to succeed. If that isn't enough, I can provide in game scenarios.

That being said, arguments don't end when one side isn't willing to adhere to the logic proposed on the opposite end either.

 

[Johnknight1]

Can I have a source for that please? :/

It's in Smash Sources/References thread made by --- (Triple Hyphen, or Triple Dash as I call him).

It is from a 1UP interview that may or may not be online anymore.

Johnknight1 is misinterpreting, or exaggerating. Sakurai's exact wording was that he believed Melee was the sharpest in the series. Not the best.

He said it was the most well balanced as well. And yes, he did imply that Melee pushed things forward the most, which was my interpretation (which wasn't inaccurate so far as I can tell), and that Melee was the Smash Bros. game he was most proud of.

I highly doubt there were tournaments in the first 3 months

There were tournaments then, though. I know people who were in tournaments and competitions. Tournaments are not hard to host; heck, 3 people could technically be in a tournament of sorts (ie: each player faces the other players once; the top 2 seeds go to winners finals, and the lowest seed goes to losers' finals). Also, 4 people could be in a single-elimination tournament. It might not be a tournament like you view it (200 people entering with no items on), but it is indeed a tournament or competition of sorts, even if they do not fall under the SWF/TO generalized/established rule set(s).

Just because you don't believe that happen also doesn't mean it didn't happen.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Your opinion is it is the most demanding. That is something that can't be proven regardless. What you experience is different from other people, and because it can't be proven, this topic will never freaking end.


As far as the melee vs. brawl..

Yeah, except that my opinion is not completely exclusive to me. It has been stated by numerous people through many mediums that Melee has technical depth and demand that exceeds Brael and Smash 64. Given that this opinion is fairly unanimous among the well informed, I can confidently say its a fact. If you don't believe me them google it, since you can argue word definitives and such as if this was about English composition.

Whatever dude, I don't understand why you choose to be ignorant like this, but these debates exist because players choose to poorly represent the communities they represent. Perhaps if you lead by a more positive example these debates wouldn't exist in the first place. If you spent more time educating yourself on an argument than finding a pointless gif image then maybe your opinions wouldn't be met with such hostility.

 

[Double Helix]

So now that I have my opinion straight on Melee vs Brawl, and all of the informed can agree that Melee is the most technically demanding, objectively speaking (see, I can throw around objective as much as nessokman throws around subjective, only intelligently), we can get back to the OP. I am mostly wondering why the need for a Gamecube controller. I know I am willing to adapt, but other than John, I haven't heard anybody else's opinion on the matter. I have just known this silly Melee/Brawl debate that gets nowhere all the time.

@John: I know willingness to adapt was an issue, but I kinda wanna ignore that argument. In all honesty it was kinda stupid. XD People should get what they want/are willing to pay for, but we shouldn't ask for too much to cater to just us. That is my opinion, and you have yours. Besides, it is hard to quantitatively measure what is asking too much. I am going to assume that asking for it for a game or two is too much for the definition of my current argument and we should discuss based upon that fact. So nobody refute this please!

 

[nessokman]

Yeah, except that my opinion is not completely exclusive to me. It has been stated by numerous people through many mediums that Melee has technical depth and demand that exceeds Brael and Smash 64. Given that this opinion is fairly unanimous among the well informed, I can confidently say its a fact. If you don't believe me them google it, since you can argue word definitives and such as if this was about English composition.
Wow, Must have taken 5 full minutes to google synonyms for easy words.

Now, because it is shared by a group of people doesn't make it fact either.
Whatever dude, I don't understand why you choose to be ignorant like this, but these debates exist because players choose to poorly represent the communities they represent. Perhaps if you lead by a more positive example these debates wouldn't exist in the first place. If you spent more time educating yourself on an argument than finding a pointless gif image then maybe your opinions wouldn't be met with such hostility.

Must have taken you 5 full minutes to google synonyms for simple words.

No matter how many people think that way it is still opinion not fact. I keep pointing out your opinionated statements but you only continue to pass them off as fact.

 

[Ulevo]

Must have taken you 5 full minutes to google synonyms for simple words.

No matter how many people think that way it is still opinion not fact. I keep pointing out your opinionated statements but you only continue to pass them off as fact.

We're passing them off as fact while providing examples to prove they're facts. You however aren't providing any evidence or argument to disprove those examples. In fact, you're not even addressing them, you're ignoring them. You just keep going on about how "it's opinion, not fact." Do you see the problem with this conversation?

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Must have taken you 5 full minutes to google synonyms for simple words.

That's subjective.

 

[nessokman]

We're passing them off as fact while providing examples to prove they're facts. You however aren't providing any evidence or argument to disprove those examples. In fact, you're not even addressing them, you're ignoring them. You just keep going on about how "it's opinion, not fact." Do you see the problem with this conversation?

So by your logic, if a group of people think it is fact, it is fact?

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

So by your logic, if a group of people think it is fact, it is fact?

Dude, quit arguing semantics. As of now these "opinions" stand as facts simply on the grounds that you have provided no retort as to why these claims are opinions. If you can't back up your argument then just drop it and get on with the topic at hand as no one here favors talking to someone when our words fall on deaf ears.

 

[Ulevo]

So by your logic, if a group of people think it is fact, it is fact?

No. Ugh.

What I'm trying to tell you is that if you're having a debate with someone, and they present some facts to you to support their side of the argument, you don't just pretend they didn't mention it. You confront those points and either disprove them as non-factual, or prove why they don't impact your position and its credibility. I'm saying you're not doing that. You're just kinda telling people that nothing can be proven (which is wrong) therefore they're either incorrect or invalidated.

 

[nessokman]

Dude, quit arguing semantics. As of now these "opinions" stand as facts simply on the grounds that you have provided no retort as to why these claims are opinions. If you can't back up your argument then just drop it and get on with the topic at hand as no one here favors talking to someone when our words fall on deaf ears.

As I said it all depends. You and someone else have different experiences. Saying it has the most of <insert thing here> someone else may think that a different game has more depending on their experiences.its all how you look at it and experience it. Because everyone's experiences are different,it can't be proven. That felt odd to type. Time for my movie night so I take my leave

 

[Double Helix]

@nessokman: It is fact that Melee is a more technically demanding game. Let us count the techniques for Brawl.
Brawl: spacing
zoning
shielding
positioning
neutral game
off-stage game
sticking to walls
short hopping
Now we should mention Melee's (I know I am missing some for Brawl, so enlighten me)
Melee: spacing
zoning
shielding
LIGHT SHIELDING
positioning
neutral game
off-stage game
wall techs
LEDGE TECHS
L-cancels
wavedashing
short hopping
jump cancelling
double jump cancelling
float cancelling
shffling

I know I missed some for both games but that is because I named them off the top of my head. Even a lot of the stuff that Melee and Brawl share go by faster in Melee. We are stating a fact. THIS DOES NOT DETERMINE WHICH GAME IS BETTER OBJECTIVELY.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

As I said it all depends. You and someone else have different experiences. Saying it has the most of <insert thing here> someone else may think that a different game has more depending on their experiences.its all how you look at it and experience it. Because everyone's experiences are different,it can't be proven. That felt odd to type. Time for my movie night so I take my leave

lol you sound like a broken record, and that doesn't prove anything.

Basically, double helix proved it is a fact though his statement. Everything that exist in Brawl for the most part exist in Melee, except it requires faster execution. That alone makes the game more technically demanding even without the aforementioned techniques. What's so hard to see about that? If some one ran drills with you in a sport that were playing, and then said to speed it up, wouldn't that make it more difficult and demanding? There is no possible way you can dismiss the evidence.

 

[Double Helix]

Anyways...how do you feel about the idea of a Gamecube controller for Smash4? I feel it to be unnecessary. Read previous post about it. It was pretty cool. And in the OP. I really enjoyed that discussion.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Anyways...how do you feel about the idea of a Gamecube controller for Smash4? I feel it to be unnecessary. Read previous post about it. It was pretty cool. And in the OP. I really enjoyed that discussion.

I'm all for it honestly. I just wonder if Nintendo could do a redesign similar to how they did the classic controller. Then again it's hard to improve on perfection (in my opinion).

 

[Double Helix]

lol. What controller is perfect to you?

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

lol. What controller is perfect to you?

The gamecube controller, but that's just me. What I truly would love to see is if they inverted the stick and button layout on the right side of the controller. Not simply because it imitates a c stick, but also so that your joystick thumb and button thumb are congruent. Then again i'm sure it's still comfortable as it's basically just a reverse PlayStation controller.

 

[Double Helix]

Yeah. I said earlier my two problems with the GC controller was the position of the X button and the D pad.

 

[DraginHikari]

As someone that only started watching this forum recently considering the last time I was regular on here was back in 2008 or so, that pretty much the same arguments and debates that were going on back then are still going on now. It's kind of funny yet kind of strange at the same time but I digress that's probably more off-topic then this is already getting and since I have no desire to relive debates from 5 years ago I'll stick to the topic on hand.

I still stand by my original statement more or less that Nintendo does not necessarily need to be involve in the whole concern over the GameCube controller since those that really want to use it will find their own way around it. I do feel I need to add a couple of points to what I originally said as well. With the Wii U Pro controller from a certain aspect I can see what they were trying to do in full honest, they were trying to create a standardized controller to try to get rid of some of the negative issues with the Wii and Wii classic controller had last generation due to strange design and limitation of the Wii remote for certain control schemes. Hends the canny resemble of the Xbox style controller, a controller type that's pretty recognizable for general usage, because it was designed in a general stance of course it's going to be better or worse in certain situations, but it's not as much of a problem as much as say the N64 controller (Which is near impossible for me to use comfortable now). The GameCube Controller does not have the same kind of problems as the N64 controller but it still on the one hand was good for Smash, there were other games that the GameCube controller was kind of strange for because of the nonstandard button placement on the controller.

This is why I don't think it's particularly realistic that Nintendo is going to be willing to create a GameCube like Controller for the Wii U, the Wii U Pro controller was intended to follow a standardize pattern for as many audiences as possible and this isn't like Project Rainfall, either there are simply not enough people to move this kind of thing with a company like Nintendo that is not particularly easy company to get to change their design practices on to begin with. If you want that all the power to you that your creative enough to work around for this issue, I just wouldn't put too high hopes on Nintendo doing anything about it.

 

[Double Helix]

As someone that only started watching this forum recently considering the last time I was regular on here was back in 2008 or so, that pretty much the same arguments and debates that were going on back then are still going on now. It's kind of funny yet kind of strange at the same time but I digress that's probably more off-topic then this is already getting and since I have no desire to relive debates from 5 years ago I'll stick to the topic on hand.

I still stand by my original statement more or less that Nintendo does not necessarily need to be involve in the whole concern over the GameCube controller since those that really want to use it will find their own way around it. I do feel I need to add a couple of points to what I originally said as well. With the Wii U Pro controller from a certain aspect I can see what they were trying to do in full honest, they were trying to create a standardized controller to try to get rid of some of the negative issues with the Wii and Wii classic controller had last generation due to strange design and limitation of the Wii remote for certain control schemes. Hends the canny resemble of the Xbox style controller, a controller type that's pretty recognizable for general usage, because it was designed in a general stance of course it's going to be better or worse in certain situations, but it's not as much of a problem as much as say the N64 controller (Which is near impossible for me to use comfortable now). The GameCube Controller does not have the same kind of problems as the N64 controller but it still on the one hand was good for Smash, there were other games that the GameCube controller was kind of strange for because of the nonstandard button placement on the controller.

This is why I don't think it's particularly realistic that Nintendo is going to be willing to create a GameCube like Controller for the Wii U, the Wii U Pro controller was intended to follow a standardize pattern for as many audiences as possible and this isn't like Project Rainfall, either there are simply not enough people to move this kind of thing with a company like Nintendo that is not particularly easy company to get to change their design practices on to begin with. If you want that all the power to you that your creative enough to work around for this issue, I just wouldn't put too high hopes on Nintendo doing anything about it.

I like all of what you said just now. However, I do believe that both the N64 and the Gamecube controllers made sense for what they came out on. The kinda annoying analog stick on the N64 was perfect for how "clunky" the older games felt. When you have a Gamecube controller the game feels laggy rather than in control (from my experience on the virtual console from the Wii). When it comes to Nintendo, they are usually good with coming up with controllers that fit the consoles they release. I did say earlier that an overall better controller does not mean a better in all cases. I feel as though the Gamecube controller was the best controller made so far in terms of sensitivity and utility. But as I said, if used for an N64 game, it would not do so well.

I agree that the Xbox 360 controller is probably the most versitile of controllers but it also doesn't seem to fit every game that the xbox has released. But it also feels better than other controllers for most games. In any case, I wouldn't mind another controller, but I will work with what I am given. I don't feel I will ever give up Melee at this point.

How rude of me! Welcome back from '08. I hope we start to see new and old faces due to EVO and Melee makes it to EVO 2014.

 

[DraginHikari]

How rude of me! Welcome back from '08. I hope we start to see new and old faces due to EVO and Melee makes it to EVO 2014.

Actually I didn't know anything about the EVO fiasco till after it was all said then done, I've been idling around since Smash 4 was announced, I just couldn't remember my password till a few days ago. Hah.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Yeah the pad was horrid. I usually use default for all my controls in games, but assuming that smash 4 will have costume controllers ill probably have to map the buttons differently since I also jump with X. Then again maybe not since the location of the X button will allow me to freely move from X>A, eliminating the need for clawing for frame perfect movement. There are some positives and some negatives about the controller, but I think it'll be fine.