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Work In Progress Perfect setups (TV/monitor, console, capture device)

jmlee337

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LEE#337
So, my guess is that the StarTech has to do analog-analog conversion (since it has been shown to not lag), and maybe in better quality than Mayflash VGA-004 and -005? @ jmlee337 jmlee337 , have you tried connecting the CPNT2VGAA output to a capture card or dist amp? My experience is that the Mayflash converters’ outputs will not be recognized by these, so it would be interesting for me whether the StarTech converter does a better job at sync-cleaning.
Unfortunately, I don't have a capture card with VGA input, nor a VGA dist amp. However I have been considering switching off the BM Intensity Shuttle and picking up a StarTech USB3HDCAP, so if I do that, I'll be sure to check and post
 

Kadano

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Unfortunately, I don't have a capture card with VGA input, nor a VGA dist amp. However I have been considering switching off the BM Intensity Shuttle and picking up a StarTech USB3HDCAP, so if I do that, I'll be sure to check and post
Why do you consider switching? Just so you can capture in VGA?

I’m asking because I’ve never been able to tweak the video signal on Yuan-based capture cards (StarTechs, Micomsoft) to be quite as good as reference snaps others sent me that were taken on the BMI Shuttle USB3. It’s only a tiny difference, and the StarTech products have the advantage of having great Windows drivers and less pickyness from the connection (I’ve heard from others that the BMI Shuttle USB3 sometimes causes blue screens or crashes / doesn’t work if it’s not connected to its favorite USB3 chipset).
But if those issues don’t happen on your system, I think I’d want to keep the BMI for its slightly superior colors. If you want to have VGA output, you can convert the BMI’s output (I think it has a lagless component output, right?) or dist-amp the component output before it enters the BMI (Extron dist-amps that do all video signals can be bought for ~20$ on Ebay).

I can provide my reference snaps for BMI Shuttle vs. Yuan / Micomsoft / StarTech if you’re interested about the color difference.
 
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jmlee337

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LEE#337
If you want to have VGA output, you can convert the BMI’s output (I think it has a lagless component output, right?)
Lagless-ish. 17us (~0.1% of a frame)

The reason is that it's super inconvenient and a possible point of failure that you have to be connected to a computer to use the passthrough. Since I want to be dist-amping the source anyway, may as well try a card that supports vga lol
 

Kadano

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Lagless-ish. 17us (~0.1% of a frame)

The reason is that it's super inconvenient and a possible point of failure that you have to be connected to a computer to use the passthrough. Since I want to be dist-amping the source anyway, may as well try a card that supports vga lol
Are you using a laptop? Because if you have the choice between USB3 and PCIe, I’d much rather recommend PCIe because it’s a more reliable and faster connection (I think USB3 still uses hw enc usually? Not sure). The SC500 = PEXHDCAP and SC512 cards from Yuan are basically the same device as the USB3HDCAP, just as PCIe cards. SC500 is much cheaper (~130$), but it doesn’t do 1080p60 and can’t record composite (which the SC512 can).
I personally use the SC500 and one thing I really like about it is that the OBS preview has hardly any lag. Something like 2 frames. Not viable for playing, but for commentating it’s great to have as little delay as possible so the audio stays synced. I’m not sure if USB3 cards are equally fast.
 

jmlee337

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Are you using a laptop? Because if you have the choice between USB3 and PCIe, I’d much rather recommend PCIe because it’s a more reliable and faster connection (I think USB3 still uses hw enc usually? Not sure). The SC500 = PEXHDCAP and SC512 cards from Yuan are basically the same device as the USB3HDCAP, just as PCIe cards. SC500 is much cheaper (~130$), but it doesn’t do 1080p60 and can’t record composite (which the SC512 can).
I personally use the SC500 and one thing I really like about it is that the OBS preview has hardly any lag. Something like 2 frames. Not viable for playing, but for commentating it’s great to have as little delay as possible so the audio stays synced. I’m not sure if USB3 cards are equally fast.
USB. Wanna be flexible between desktop/laptop, don't wanna go to the trouble of PCIe anyway lol.

FWIW, I've observed preview lag on the BM Intensity Shuttle to be zero for commentary purposes. As far as I know, only USB 2.0 devices have preview lag. The local university smash club uses an Elgato and that has about 2 sec of preview lag

More interesting stuff, though
I figure I can add some of the things I've found about Gamecube RGB output to this thread, since I don't recall seeing it anywhere else. As we know, component cables for Gamecube are relatively uncommon and are sold for exorbitant prices on eBay. The benefit is that they have better quality than Wii component, and can be modified to output RGB.

First there is the GCVideo project, which aims to use an FPGA to emulate the converter chip inside the Gamecube component cable.
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=51450
https://github.com/ikorb/gcvideo
I haven't seen any latency related claims or observations

Secondly, Googling the part number of the chip inside the Gamecube component cable led me to a couple of suppliers on Alibaba which claim to sell it. If they're legit it would be relatively trivial to make our own. I wrote up a small doc on that here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/16_31nXVfhWoeh98kOYUBMVgmqbdDxcsjUDSVl_Un99w
 
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Kadano

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There’s also megalomaniac’s web shop: http://www.badassconsoles.com/

He has been working on GC-Video for a long time now and is known to sell his products for very fair prices. It seems that he is somewhat close to finish his cloned cables.
To be honest, the Alibaba suppliers look a bit shady to me, with no / next to no references and only mentioning the CMPV-DOL in name, not describing it properly or having pictures of it.
 
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jmlee337

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There’s also megalomaniac’s web shop: http://www.badassconsoles.com/

He has been working on GC-Video for a long time now and is known to sell his products for very fair prices. It seems that he is somewhat close to finish his cloned cables.
To be honest, the Alibaba suppliers look a bit shady to me, with no / next to no references and only mentioning the CMPV-DOL in name, not describing it properly or having pictures of it.
Ah sweet I didn't know about that. Sounds promising.

As for the alibaba suppliers I'll probably try ordering a few and checking. Can't hurt
 

Kadano

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Extron CVC 200 review



Purpose
The Extron CVC 200 is a professional video converter that takes YPbPr (“component video”) and outputs RGBHV (“VGA”). RGBHV is the standard video signal for CRT computer monitors, which are widely available, always lagless¹ displays for Melee. CRT TVs, by comparison, sometimes do lag and are almost never capable of displaying 480p60 content (and even if they do, they usually lag).
Gamecube and Wii 480p60-capable cables output YPbPr by default, which is not supported by CRT computer monitors. Some professional video studio CRTs support 480p60 over component², however they are usually quite expensive (~250$/€ used), whereas CRT computer monitors can often be had for 0-50$/€.
By converting the YPbPr signal to RGBHV, you can connect Gamecube or Wii component cables to CRT computer monitors, which in total allows for rather cheap, lagless 480p60 Melee setups.

Size and connectors
The CVC 200 is rather large for a simple converter, 22*24*4 cm. The front only has a power LED, no buttons. On the back side, there are three BNC connectors for the YPbPr input and six BNC connectors for the RGBHV or RGBS² output. There’s also a rotary switch, which you want to keep at the “2” position for 480p (and higher).
To connect the CVC to your console and monitor, you’ll need three RCA-BNC adapters (for Y, Pb and Pr) and either a 5BNC-5BNC cable (if your monitor has BNC inputs) or a 5BNC-VGA cable. These shouldn’t cost you more than 20$ in total.

Video quality and processing time
The video quality of the CVC 200 is about as good as it gets. It’s noticeably better than the cheaper Mayflash products³, which are my only reference.
I don’t have tools for measuring video delay properly yet, but I will add my measurements and comparisons with other setups once I do. I did not notice lag while playing, for what it’s worth. Extron products are usually very fast in their processing time, so I expect the CVC 200’s propagation delay to be in the 2-3 digit nanoseconds range.
Update 2017-02-15: I measured the CVC 200's output versus its inputs with my Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope and found the input lag to be insignificant (<10 µs), so the CVC 200 can be considered lagless.

Power usage
The CVC 200 is a professional device, not a consumer product. As such, it doesn’t have a standby mode, so you’ll have to turn off its power supply to ensure no power is drawn.
Regardless of whether video is being input or not, the CVC 200 draws between 8 and 9 Watts. (Measured with a Voltcraft 3000.)

Sources
It’s offered on Ebay quite often. I bought mine for 35$ (before shipping and import fees to Europe, which increased the total to 89$), which seems to be a bit below the average sold price.
I recommend buying these whenever you can get them for 100$ shipped or less. (Assuming having the best possible picture quality and the lowest possible amount of lag is worth that much to you.)
Example auctions: 1, 2

Alternatives
There are other Extron products that basically do the same job: CVC 100, CVC 300 and IN1503.

The StarTech CPNT2VGAA has been tested to have no lag (less than 10µs if I’m understanding the diagram correctly) by jmlee337. He also mentioned that its internal build quality isn’t too great, though, and it is not yet known whether its VGA outputs has proper sync levels for recording and distribution-amplifying.
By comparison with the Extron CVC 200, the CPNT2VGAA is a bit more expensive (especially if you live in America, where used Extrons are cheap).

Mayflash VGA-004 and VGA-005³ are even cheaper, but they have worse video quality by default. By running their output through an RGB interface (Extron 164xi, for example), sync levels are cleaned up and the picture looks quite nice, however it won’t be quite as good as with the CVC 200. Also, some of these have an issue of blacking out on scene changes (doesn’t happen mid-match fortunately, but sometimes during result screens), which supposedly can be solved by exchanging a capacitor (source in German).
Without running the Mayflash video output through an RGB interface, it will only get recognized by CRT monitors, not by capture cards or distribution amplifiers.
I only recommend these to you if you are super-tight on money, or if you already have an RGB interface around.



¹670 nanoseconds propagation delay between video signal input and corresponding phosphor photon output, according to prad.de
²Horizontal and vertical sync combined into one composite sync signal.
³Mayflash VGA-004, which is a 20$ VGA cable for the Wii that directly converts the Multi-AV plug YPbPr signals into RGBHV, although with only mediocre quality; and Mayflash VGA-005, which for ~25$ does the same but is a small converter with three RCA inputs for YPbPr and a mini-B-USB connector for power supply.
 
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jmlee337

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sick.

10RGBs

edit:
What's the difference between the 100, 200, and 300, if any?
Capture quality pics incoming, I assume?
I did notice lag while playing, for what it’s worth.
I assume that's a typo and meant to say "I didn't notice lag while playing"?
 
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Kadano

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Yeah I meant to say that I did not notice any, haha. Thanks for telling me.

The 300 is smaller and has an external power supply, and has the controls on the front. It also seems to be rarer. CVC 100 seems to be old / legacy and somewhat undocumented. The internals are very similar probably, maybe the CVC 100 can’t do quite as high resolutions.

I can take comparison pictures between Gamecube-component, Gamecube-VGA, Mayflash-VGA-004, -005 and CVC 200 with my Yuan SC500, sure. Tomorrow probably.

@ Noc Noc tagging you because you might want to return your StarTech (if still possible) and buy a CVC 200, which probably solves your blacking out problems.
 
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x412

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Hi @ Kadano Kadano !

First off I have to say thank you. I've finally found time to research into this as well as a lot of other technical aspects of melee/modding/etc and the amount of knowledge you have in your post history is incredible.

I'm a player/streamer in my area trying to optimize quality/portability (constantly carrying this equipment)/compatibility/cost since fests and tournaments can happen at any location randomly. My current hardware setup is as follows:

Homebrew Wii using Nintendont to load 20XX with native controllers enabled
Component/Composite Cables (composite used)
MSI CX-61 Laptop
El Gato Game Capture HD
CE Audio & Composite Dist. Amp.
Logitech H110 Headsets
CRT w/ Composite Inputs
2x Composite M-to-M A/V cables

After going through the info here I learned the hard way that my laptop does have a xHCI USB 3.0 controller and plan to upgrade to the Black Magic Intensity Shuttle. This would remove the need of the distribution amplifier and excess cables. As well as upgrade the picture quality and stop the game audio delay issue caused by USB 2.0 capture cards which has been the most concern for me since having commentary out of sync with game audio is impossible to fix post local record. At least this is what I theoretically think will happen so input on this would be great.

Then I noticed that you mentioned GIMR uses a XCAPTURE-1 to feed his stream with a 480p signal instead of 480i and also passthrough to a BMIS to get the 480i signal to a CRT. Is there any reason why a simple progressive to interlace hardware converter has not been made? Or is there already one made? Or is the BMIS considered to be one? The XCAPTURE-1 is something I'd love to have but if I have to use the BMIS as a progressive to interlace converter, the BMIS is a low cost upgrade by selling equipment I currently have. The XCAPTURE-1 can then be a upgrade later on once I get some more experience with playing with these video signals and editing under my belt.

Last two questions are software related. 99% of the time when using the hardware I'll be streaming it but I'll be uploading later to YouTube. I found another guide here that involved using VirtualDub instead of OBS and it kind of confused me. Is local recording from OBS used or is both OBS and VirtualDub running at the same time to handle stream and local record respectively? And is there any way to avoid the issue of having to lower the bitrate in OBS due to poor internet connections and thus destroying the quality of the local recording?
 

jmlee337

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Hi, not @ Kadano Kadano here, still can answer your questions

As well as upgrade the picture quality and stop the game audio delay issue caused by USB 2.0 capture cards which has been the most concern for me since having commentary out of sync with game audio is impossible to fix post local record. At least this is what I theoretically think will happen so input on this would be great.
This is correct, the BMI Shuttle has no noticeable commentary delay.

Then I noticed that you mentioned GIMR uses a XCAPTURE-1 to feed his stream with a 480p signal instead of 480i and also passthrough to a BMIS to get the 480i signal to a CRT. Is there any reason why a simple progressive to interlace hardware converter has not been made? Or is there already one made? Or is the BMIS considered to be one? The XCAPTURE-1 is something I'd love to have but if I have to use the BMIS as a progressive to interlace converter, the BMIS is a low cost upgrade by selling equipment I currently have. The XCAPTURE-1 can then be a upgrade later on once I get some more experience with playing with these video signals and editing under my belt.
If I had to guess, I'd say GMIR uses the setup he uses because it works well. Since he's a professional and streaming is his job, he may or may not have time to read forum threads like this one and experiment with different configurations of equipment.

Regarding component to composite conversion, there are many untested options out there. There's no theoretical reason a component to composite converter would need to have lag, but you'd be rolling the dice. I can tell you for sure, the BMI Shuttle can convert from progressive inputs to interlaced outputs with 60 us of latency (low enough to be called lagless), see this post: http://smashboards.com/threads/work...le-capture-device.355292/page-2#post-19177607

Is local recording from OBS used or is both OBS and VirtualDub running at the same time to handle stream and local record respectively? And is there any way to avoid the issue of having to lower the bitrate in OBS due to poor internet connections and thus destroying the quality of the local recording?
Can't tell you unless you link to whatever it was you read.
 

x412

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Thank you! I apologize, I may have been too wordy with the second part. In your link you mentioned the Startech CPNT2VGAA. This is exactly what I was referring to but instead of a VGA out, a composite A/V out. Basically a gutted BMI that would do the same exact job for this specific application of use, with the same quality, but much cheaper.

This was the guide I was referring to:

http://smashboards.com/threads/how-...s-in-optimal-quality-60-frames-second.333301/

There were some other posts about updating it with regards to OBS but it hasn't happened yet. Right now I'm fine with OBS performing the local recording but I was just looking for better methods if there were any. Though if I continue to use the local record + stream feature that OBS has, if I have to lower the bitrate due to poor internet then the local recording also gets affected which sucks.

Also, nice oscilloscope. Got to use that recently for some projects.
 

jmlee337

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Yeah there's definitely component to composite converters out there. Like this https://sewelldirect.com/Component-...ellow-RCA-and-S-Video-Converter-w-Down-Scaler

I say it's a roll of the dice because I don't know of anyone measuring it for lag. It may well have none, but you never know. However if you do have access to an oscilloscope, you could test it yourself if you bought it

Oh yeah, I've only ever used the record + stream thing in OBS. I imagine it would not be a trivial task to record at one bitrate and stream at another. That would involve encoding twice, I believe.
 

TheCatPhysician

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Would there be any problem with this set up for playing lagless 480p while streaming?

1. Wii --> Wii component cable --> component distribution amplifier

2. Component distrbution amplifier --> component cable --> Mayflash VGA005 (http://www.mayflash.com/Products/VIDEOADAPTERS/VGA005.html) --> any old PC CRT

3. Component distribution amplifier --> component cable --> Elgato Game Capture HD

I already have the Elgato, component distribution amp, component cables and Wii.

Edit: I went ahead and ordered the VGA005. It seems like this should work fine. The only thing left is to buy a PC CRT with a Trinitron based tube, right? Is there an easy way to identify whether a monitor is Trinitron-based? Aside from coming across an a genuine Trinitron lol
 
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Kadano

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Is there any reason why a simple progressive to interlace hardware converter has not been made? Or is there already one made? Or is the BMIS considered to be one? The XCAPTURE-1 is something I'd love to have but if I have to use the BMIS as a progressive to interlace converter, the BMIS is a low cost upgrade by selling equipment I currently have. The XCAPTURE-1 can then be a upgrade later on once I get some more experience with playing with these video signals and editing under my belt.
I think for a portable setup its a good idea to first buy the Blackmagic Intensity Shuttle USB3 and then, if you have problems with it, also buy the Xcapture-1.
Iirc the reason GimR went from the Shuttle to the Xcapture is because the Shuttle’s drivers are a bit fragile and sometimes cause BSOD if the USB3 line has minor problems, but I’m not sure if that’s really it. I have witnessed that problem with German streamer °UCK (SYPG), so there’s at least some risk.
The Extron USP507 does component to composite conversion, but it seems overkill and too large to carry around. It makes sense that there are few devices that do that since professional broadcasters try to preserve video quality, not downgrade it. I always recommend using VGA CRTs, but of course you can’t rely on every TO you stream for having one of these. So I think the Shuttle is the only way.

The linked Sewell looks very similar to the Monoprice component→VGA converter we talked on the last page that turned out to lag. I’d avoid it, it’s likely that the Sewell is made similarly and also does laggy analog→digital→analog conversion (instead of analog→analog, which needs higher quality parts to get right).

Last two questions are software related. 99% of the time when using the hardware I'll be streaming it but I'll be uploading later to YouTube. I found another guide here that involved using VirtualDub instead of OBS and it kind of confused me. Is local recording from OBS used or is both OBS and VirtualDub running at the same time to handle stream and local record respectively? And is there any way to avoid the issue of having to lower the bitrate in OBS due to poor internet connections and thus destroying the quality of the local recording?
I think that Xsplit and the newer version of OBS (Multiplatform) have the double encode feature. Of course it’s more taxing on the CPU than single encode, so I guess quad-core Intel (Sandy Bridge or later) at 2.8 GHz or something will be minimum.
I never used VirtualDub for streaming, so I really don’t know. I guess it’s possible to use OBS program capture to import the video from VirtualDub. But cutting sets on-the-fly probably isn’t as simple as it is with OBS only this way.

Would there be any problem with this set up for playing lagless 480p while streaming?

1. Wii --> Wii component cable --> component distribution amplifier

2. Component distrbution amplifier --> component cable --> Mayflash VGA005 (http://www.mayflash.com/Products/VIDEOADAPTERS/VGA005.html) --> any old PC CRT

3. Component distribution amplifier --> component cable --> Elgato Game Capture HD

I already have the Elgato, component distribution amp, component cables and Wii.

Edit: I went ahead and ordered the VGA005. It seems like this should work fine. The only thing left is to buy a PC CRT with a Trinitron based tube, right? Is there an easy way to identify whether a monitor is Trinitron-based? Aside from coming across an a genuine Trinitron lol
It’s okay, but I would buy an Extron CVC 200 instead of the Mayflash to get better quality.

Trinitron tube isn’t that important. I have a shadow mask PC CRT monitors that looks great too (Philips 109MP). Also, Trinitron is just what Sony calls its aperture grille invention (AG). Mitsubishi, NEC, Panasonic and maybe some more all made AG CRTs too when Sony’s patent run out.
AG is heavier and more fragile, so it’s not always better. It’s main benefits are better peak brightness and somewhat more vertical resolution, but Melee has less than half of the resolution where this starts to make a different, so I really wouldn’t worry about that.
Get any good condition 19-21" PC CRT for 0-50$ and you should be fine. Also don’t forget that you need speakers too, since PC CRTs either have none or really crappy ones.
 
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TheCatPhysician

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Thanks! There are a few reasons I chose the VGA005 for now:

1. The price isn't as big of a commitment
2. jmlee337 lag tested it (I know it's extremely unlikely that the CVC 200 will end up having significant lag when it gets tested but it's nice to be sure)
3. I'm only outputting it to a CRT monitor so I'm only getting the slight decrease in video quality you guys talked about, not the huge decrease from outputting to a capture card
4. No need to deal with BNC

It's too bad that there isn't a good way to compare the VGA005's quality with a direct connection to a CRT to other options, except by viewing it personally, since throwing a capture card into the mix would ruin the results. Do you think taking close-up pictures of a CRT with a camera could give a good idea of the difference? In any case, I'll probably upgrade to a CVC 200 later on.

This thread is amazing and I really appreciate the work you guys are doing. Keep it up! Also, I found another component to VGA converter on Amazon by E-more. If it's as good as the CVC, it might make a good alternative some time since the CVC is so hard to find:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00MFLY792/ref=mp_s_a_1_21?qid=1441585412&sr=8-21&pi=AC_SX110_SY165_QL70&keywords=Component to vga&dpPl=1&dpID=31PwSLuix+L&ref=plSrch

On that note, unfortunately the VGA005 is no longer listed on US Amazon. I found it on UK Amazon but the price is pretty steep right now. I bought mine from AVC Distributor. Hopefully it goes well
 
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Kadano

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2. jmlee337 lag tested it (I know it's extremely unlikely that the CVC 200 will end up having significant lag when it gets tested but it's nice to be sure)
Yeah, I’ve been trying to test the lag on the CVC 200, but I can’t get the lag tester code to work. Whenever I load the code, the .iso boots to black. I hope I’ll succeed with this soon.
It's too bad that there isn't a good way to compare the VGA005's quality with a direct connection to a CRT to other options, except by viewing it personally, since throwing a capture card into the mix would ruin the results. Do you think taking close-up pictures of a CRT with a camera could give a good idea of the difference? In any case, I'll probably upgrade to a CVC 200 later on.
Yeah, I can take some pictures. I wanted to do this at the same time as lag-testing all my setups, but it seems that’s not an option for now anyway.

This thread is amazing and I really appreciate the work you guys are doing. Keep it up! Also, I found another component to VGA converter on Amazon by E-more. If it's as good as the CVC, it might make a good alternative some time since the CVC is so hard to find:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00MFLY792/ref=mp_s_a_1_21?qid=1441585412&sr=8-21&pi=AC_SX110_SY165_QL70&keywords=Component to vga&dpPl=1&dpID=31PwSLuix+L&ref=plSrch
To be honest, that device is most likely laggy. It seems very similar to the device we talked on the last page that turned out to lag (likely because it does cheaper analog-digital-analog conversion), and also it’s not cheaper than a used Extron CVC. Its only advantage is size, but having something portable is worthless if it lags anyway.
 

jmlee337

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Yeah, I’ve been trying to test the lag on the CVC 200, but I can’t get the lag tester code to work. Whenever I load the code, the .iso boots to black. I hope I’ll succeed with this soon.
I can't remember if I've said this before, but I'm skeptical about how useful that lag tester code is, since its max resolution is one whole frame. Oscilloscope measurements are definitely the way to go if there's any way you can access one. Local makerspaces, EE/CS labs at a university that a friend can let you into, etc.

To be honest, that device is most likely laggy. It seems very similar to the device we talked on the last page that turned out to lag (likely because it does cheaper analog-digital-analog conversion), and also it’s not cheaper than a used Extron CVC. Its only advantage is size, but having something portable is worthless if it lags anyway.
Yeah, I'm 99% sure that thing is exactly the same as the monoprice unit.
 

TheCatPhysician

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Oh, holy cow. I didn't realize how similar the Monoprice and E-more are. It's literally the exact same box with different labels. Nevermind!

And yeah, Salvato's input delay tester can only tell us so much. But after seeing how Noc ran his tests with it, I think that with enough testing it could at least confirm that the CVC's lag is less than one millisecond. Kadano, I don't know very much about Wii homebrew so this might be a pointless suggestion, but maybe the code would work if you run it from Gecko OS with an actual disc instead of an ISO? I don't know why this would be any different than applying the code to an ISO, but I was also unable to get the code to work with an ISO and I can't try Gecko OS because I don't have a working Melee disc at the moment.
 

jmlee337

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LEE#337
fwiw, I ran the lag tester code through dios-mios loader (using dios mios lite) with a 20XX iso (off my SD card)
 

Noc

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I received and tested some new equipment. Here are the results.

I could not solve the problem of random blackouts with the Startech CNPT2VGAA component to VGA converter even after trying an official Nintendo Wii component cable, high quality VGA cable, and a 9V 2A AC adaptor (instead of the 9V 1A AC adaptor it came with). There's still a chance it would work with a Gamecube and GC component cable but that is above my budget (plus I like using the Wii due to its hacking capabilities). I am returning this converter.

I got both a Mayflash VGA005 and Extron CVC 200. Thankfully I do not get random blackouts with either of these converters. The picture quality with the Extron CVC 200 is brighter and similar to that of unconverted component. See comparison pictures below.
Component:


VGA005 component-VGA converter:


Extron CVC 200 converter:

Regarding lag, I used the input delay tester, ran it 30 times, and calculated average milliseconds lag for the Extron CVC 200, VGA005, and CNPT2VGAA converters connected to my CRT PC monitor, as well as composite connection to a regular CRT as a control. There was no significant difference in lag between all of these setups (using multiple t tests all p values were greater than 0.1). So all of these converters have minimal to no lag.

I look forward to using the Extron CVC 200 at the next tournament I stream!
 

Kadano

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Thanks so much @ Noc Noc , it’s amazing to have you here!

Although, the CVC 200 pic looks like it has a bit of a green tint. I’m gonna take some pics from my setup too and see if this a general issue with it.
 
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AstroPancakes

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I'm the streamer for my local smash scene, and I use an EDTV (Product line is Panasonic Tau, not sure of model number but I can post it later) for my stream setup and capture with the Avermedia Live Gamer Extreme (their newest card), which is working out well for me. The Panasonic seemingly has no lag, and has fantastic picture quality.

I'm currently trying to expand my stream hardware in case my CRT dies (God forbid) or it's not feasible to transport. I have the generic monoprice component -> composite converter as well as an Atlona AT-COMP500 component -> composite converter. The Atlona has better picture quality, but both seem to suffer from a problem where plugging something into my stream setup causes the screen on the CRT to blank out for a second. This has happened ranging from plugging a USB device into my stream computer, or plugging another XLR into the audio mixer. I assume it's because both of my converters aren't electrically shielded properly (or something, I'm no expert on the subject).

I've just purchased an Extron VSC 500 http://www.extron.com/product/product.aspx?id=555 to downscale to composite, but realized it only accepts RGB rather than YPbPr component input. To fix this, I've just ordered the Mayflash (or knockoff) VGA004 from Amazon. If this doesn't work out, I will consider buying an Extron CVC 200 to do the YPbPr -> RGBHV conversion.
 

Kadano

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That’s exactly the course of action I would recommend. I hope it fixes the problem for you! Also, thanks for letting us know that there are EDTV CRTs that have no lag.
 

Fishaman P

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How much does modding the GC Component Cable for RGBHV affect the image? I would think it's just slightly more accurate colors, and the mod would be a pain for me to do since I have no soldering skills whatsoever.
 

Kadano

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How much does modding the GC Component Cable for RGBHV affect the image? I would think it's just slightly more accurate colors, and the mod would be a pain for me to do since I have no soldering skills whatsoever.
I don’t think there’s a noticeable or even measurable difference in quality over Gamecube component. Just buy an Extron CVC 200.
 

Fishaman P

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I don’t think there’s a noticeable or even measurable difference in quality over Gamecube component. Just buy an Extron CVC 200.
I'm trying to get 95% of full quality on 25% of the budget. I've been considering a lot of options like the XCAPTURE-1 (and its StarTech knockoff), but the more I think about it the more Wii Component cables with a Blackmagic Intensity Shuttle sounds like the most cost-effective option. I think using VGA would add several hundred dollars to the cost for very little benefit.
 

Kadano

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I'm trying to get 95% of full quality on 25% of the budget. I've been considering a lot of options like the XCAPTURE-1 (and its StarTech knockoff), but the more I think about it the more Wii Component cables with a Blackmagic Intensity Shuttle sounds like the most cost-effective option. I think using VGA would add several hundred dollars to the cost for very little benefit.
Well, if you use Shuttle to convert 480p to 480i-composite, you definitely won’t have “95% of full quality” on the playing monitor / TV.

If you use a desktop for recording, you can just go for SC500 / PEXHDCAP. Cheaper than Xcapture and Shuttle, but same quality. It doesn’t have an in-built distribution amp, but things like Extron DA4xi do both RGBHV and YPbPr that for ~20$. Hook one output to an Extron CVC 200 (~40$) and its output to a CRT VGA monitor. That’s +60$ in total, not taking the saved money by going for PEXHDCAP into account. Not several hundred.
 

Fishaman P

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Well, if you use Shuttle to convert 480p to 480i-composite, you definitely won’t have “95% of full quality” on the playing monitor / TV.

If you use a desktop for recording, you can just go for SC500 / PEXHDCAP. Cheaper than Xcapture and Shuttle, but same quality. It doesn’t have an in-built distribution amp, but things like Extron DA4xi do both RGBHV and YPbPr that for ~20$. Hook one output to an Extron CVC 200 (~40$) and its output to a CRT VGA monitor. That’s +60$ in total, not taking the saved money by going for PEXHDCAP into account. Not several hundred.
Sorry, I should have been more specific. Recording quality and simplicity of hardware are my 2 main concerns. The players around here couldn't care less if Grand Finals were played on a 27" CRT with Composite, as long as it's lagless.

I'm the recording guy around here, and I have to walk to fests and tournaments. Doing so with my 13" CRT is enough, I don't need to be carrying around a 60lb computer monitor [which are rare around here], a signal converter the size of my backpack, or a desktop with a PCIe capture device. If I take my laptop, BMI Shuttle, and video cables, that should do the trick just fine, right?

Of course, I'm still considering my options for upgrade paths down the line, but the Shuttle seems invaluable to have anyway.
 
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Dryillic

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Sorry, I should have been more specific. Recording quality and simplicity of hardware are my 2 main concerns. The players around here couldn't care less if Grand Finals were played on a 27" CRT with Composite, as long as it's lagless.

I'm the recording guy around here, and I have to walk to fests and tournaments. Doing so with my 13" CRT is enough, I don't need to be carrying around a 60lb computer monitor [which are rare around here], a signal converter the size of my backpack, or a desktop with a PCIe capture device. If I take my laptop, BMI Shuttle, and video cables, that should do the trick just fine, right?

Of course, I'm still considering my options for upgrade paths down the line, but the Shuttle seems invaluable to have anyway.
Portable, quality and cheap is difficult to pull off. That being said, I personally don't like the idea of using the BMI Shuttle. My main reasons are the compatibility and the reliability.

I've talked with Spenser (ShowDown Smash) and he suggested that the Shuttle is a point of failure you don't want to have. I heard rumors of it failing, cutting off the recording AND the gameplay. I have no concrete proof of the Shuttle's failure rate but I assume its higher than some distribution amplifiers that split component, vga, ect. Might be something to think about.

If you have Windows, the Shuttle is also a pain for compatibility. It only appears to work on a handful of motherboards and laptops. (https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4277) I spent awhile trying to figure out solutions only to be met with vague solutions that might work. Thunderbolt Shuttle's don't seem to suffer from the same compatibility as far as I know.
 

Fishaman P

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Portable, quality and cheap is difficult to pull off. That being said, I personally don't like the idea of using the BMI Shuttle. My main reasons are the compatibility and the reliability.

I've talked with Spenser (ShowDown Smash) and he suggested that the Shuttle is a point of failure you don't want to have. I heard rumors of it failing, cutting off the recording AND the gameplay. I have no concrete proof of the Shuttle's failure rate but I assume its higher than some distribution amplifiers that split component, vga, ect. Might be something to think about.

If you have Windows, the Shuttle is also a pain for compatibility. It only appears to work on a handful of motherboards and laptops. (https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4277) I spent awhile trying to figure out solutions only to be met with vague solutions that might work. Thunderbolt Shuttle's don't seem to suffer from the same compatibility as far as I know.
I'm well aware of the chipset issues. For the most part, it seems to not be a problem nowadays with Intel USB chipsets being so widespread.

However, I haven't heard of the Shuttle suddenly powering off like that. I would certainly never hear the end of it if I allowed that to happen. I'll have to do a lot of testing.
 

Kadano

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I heard about the Shuttle blackout issues too, happened to Benny of SYPG while he was streaming a tournament.
GimR uses the Shuttle only for down converting the signal and captures with an Xcapture hooked before that. Apparently the blacking out has to do with load from recording, and if that job is done by a different card, it doesn't happen.

Iirc there are Extron devices that do lagless down converting for cheaper when buying them used, so I say go with that. Or buy what I recommended before and have some other smasher haul you with his car.
 

AstroPancakes

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I got my Extron VSC500 and CVC200 and tried them out. Here's a picture of them hooked up http://imgbox.com/MFx0KFRQ

The result: no lag, but occasional line tearing on the players' CRT. Haven't decided if that's a deal-breaker or not. I'll keep messing with it to see if I can get the screen tearing to go away, but if not, I may go with the GimR solution of just using the Shuttle to convert and then capturing with a different card.

It's worth noting that every Component->Composite converter I've used exhibits this screen tearing. I've tried them on different CRTs, so I don't think it's their fault. I assumed this was a fundamental byproduct of downscaling, but if the Shuttle doesn't do this, then ¯\_(⊙_ʖ⊙)_/¯

I finally got around to uploading the pictures I took of my Panasonic 480p crt. The model number is CT-32HX41E. Here's some pictures:
http://imgbox.com/02OFnW4E
http://imgbox.com/3pRnnDH8
http://imgbox.com/83k7gf2Q
http://imgbox.com/TrMzL7W6 (supports 1080i, but I have no reason to test that)

The picture quality is incredible, too. Lunchables said it's the best CRT he's every played on.

480p and lagless, it makes streaming super easy... except if I have to travel. This thing is really heavy. Impossible to move with just one person. I have a floor dolly in case I do need to move it, but it takes two people to lift.

*sorry for not using Imgur for the pictures, it was down when I was typing this
 

jmlee337

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I have another oscilloscope lag measurement for everyone! This time it's the AV400COMP component distribution amplifier.

You can get it for $20 on eBay. It comes with 4 outputs and it's propagation delay is...
http://imgur.com/9BQgZdY

60 nanoseconds, insignificant. Easily within the threshold of 'lagless'
 

Fishaman P

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Instead of going the cheap way out and settling for a BMI Shuttle, I did some extensive research, and I'd like to call your attention to:

The Extron USP 405!

This unit, which averages $100 on eBay but can go as low as $70, is a universal sync converter, signal transcoder, and scaler. Any of the inputs (VGA, RGB, YPbPr, S-Video, Composite) can be transcoded to any of the outputs (same selection). The VGA and RGB outputs are both simultaneously active, so you can output to a VGA capture card and to a PVM without splitters. Loopbacks are also provdided on most inputs, so it acts as a 1:2 VGA distribution amplifier, for example. Scaling anything up or down to various resolutions is supported, maxing out at 1080p.

It does the transcoding job of a BMI Shuttle, while being cheaper and not requiring a PC. It also supports VGA input instead of just Component, so those with modded VGA cables are good to go. Basically, it's a universal magic machine to make any GC/Wii cable work on any TV, PVM or PC monitor, and still record at full quality 480p.

According to the specs sheet, the max propagation time is 20ns, so lagless.
The only downside I know of is that it apparently doesn't play nicely with 240p. Such a shame, but not relevant for Melee.
 
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Kadano

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Interesting, seems to be great value for that price. You mixed up component with composite though; YPbPr is the same as component, while composite is the yellow abundant cable with bad video quality.

I think usually the propagation delay from the spec sheet is for same output as input. I don’t think upscaling can be done in 20 ns, but < 1 ms is still very likely.

How do you set the output resolution? Is there a toggle between set scaling and unprocessed (same output as input)?
 

jmlee337

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Interesting, seems to be great value for that price. You mixed up component with composite though; YPbPr is the same as component, while composite is the yellow abundant cable with bad video quality.

I think usually the propagation delay from the spec sheet is for same output as input. I don’t think upscaling can be done in 20 ns, but < 1 ms is still very likely.

How do you set the output resolution? Is there a toggle between set scaling and unprocessed (same output as input)?
Indeed, conceptually, upscaling needs at least 1 full scan line buffer (or else there's nothing to scale). Minimum theoretical time is ~32 us, but that would be for just simple linedoubling. Actual interpolation would require two scan lines (~63 us theoretical minimum)
 

AstroPancakes

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Indeed, conceptually, upscaling needs at least 1 full scan line buffer (or else there's nothing to scale). Minimum theoretical time is ~32 us, but that would be for just simple linedoubling. Actual interpolation would require two scan lines (~63 us theoretical minimum)
Should downscaling analog->analog theoretically take as much time as upscaling analog->analog, or might it be less?
 

AstroPancakes

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Instead of going the cheap way out and settling for a BMI Shuttle, I did some extensive research, and I'd like to call your attention to:

The Extron USP 405!

This unit, which averages $100 on eBay but can go as low as $70, is a universal sync converter, signal transcoder, and scaler. Any of the inputs (VGA, RGB, YPbPr, S-Video, Component) can be transcoded to any of the outputs (same selection). The VGA and RGB outputs are both simultaneously active, so you can output to a VGA capture card and to a PVM without splitters. Loopbacks are also provdided on most inputs, so it acts as a 1:2 VGA distribution amplifier, for example. Scaling anything up or down to various resolutions is supported, maxing out at 1080p.

It does the transcoding job of a BMI Shuttle, while being cheaper and not requiring a PC. It also supports VGA input instead of just Component, so those with modded VGA cables are good to go. Basically, it's a universal magic machine to make any GC/Wii cable work on any TV, PVM or PC monitor, and still record at full quality 480p.

According to the specs sheet, the max propagation time is 20ns, so lagless.
The only downside I know of is that it apparently doesn't play nicely with 240p. Such a shame, but not relevant for Melee.
I'm gonna buy one of these
 
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