Work In Progress Perfect setups (TV/monitor, console, capture device)

[jmlee337]

My VGA004 is in.

Strangely enough it passes a 15kHz signal, implying that it's different internally than the VGA005. Which means I should probably find a way to oscilloscope test it just in case. Not sure about how to do that easily yet. Is there such a thing as an extension for the wii analog video port?

And do these or the CPNT2VGAA up the 15kHz horizontal scan rate?

They do not increase the scan rate. Doing so would incur lag since it would need some kind of pixel buffering.

Further thoughts on scan rate: In theory an analog device could double the scan rate (which would be the same as deinterlacing as I understand it) without incurring any *additional* lag, but you'd still be suffering from the problem of one of the odd/even fields being one frame behind on any given frame.

 

[Kadano]

My VGA004 is in.

Strangely enough it passes a 15kHz signal, implying that it's different internally than the VGA005. Which means I should probably find a way to oscilloscope test it just in case. Not sure about how to do that easily yet. Is there such a thing as an extension for the wii analog video port?

I don’t think there is. From when I opened my VGA004s (and VGA004 knockoffs that seem to work just as well) I believe the easiest way would be to use Wii component cables, split / dist amp those and connect the male RCA leads to female RCA extensions that you cut off and solder to the connector directly.

You’ll need to get 12V and 5V from somewhere to the VGA004: http://gamesx.com/wiki/doku.php?id=av:wii_multi_av_pinout

If I was in your place, I’d buy an extra component cable and open the connector and connect the 5V and 12V pins from the Wii with the VGA004 directly.

Further thoughts on scan rate: In theory an analog device could double the scan rate (which would be the same as deinterlacing as I understand it) without incurring any *additional* lag, but you'd still be suffering from the problem of one of the odd/even fields being one frame behind on any given frame.

If I’m not mistaken, simple line doubling would be the fastest processing method, and would need to have at least half a 480i line delay (~69 µs). For example, line A of 15khz would be read and saved to a memory / buffer. To transfer it at 31 khz speed, it could only start putting it out when the first half of that line has been buffered (or else it would run out of buffered pixels at 31 khz speed). It would then buffer line C of 15 khz (B is skipped due to interlacing) and output line A2 (copy of A) until it has buffered the first half of line C.

 

[DRGN]

If I had to guess right now, I'd theorize that the VGA004/005 don't bother with any HV sync at all, since that would require a sync separator chip. And effectively output a sync-on-green signal, which monitors can take okay but dist-amps and capture cards can't.

I figured that was what one of the chips in the VGA005 was for. Are you able to check the H/V sync pins and see if it's sync-on-green or true sync signals? I think it just needs a little filtering if I recall correctly. Actually recreating/cleaning-up the pulse may be optional. But even if that's what it does, I think it would just be a matter of microseconds.

Btw, do you know if the Wii is set to display 480p, will it still actually be displaying that when the game boots up? Or will it default to 480i, until you hit the in-game confirmation to display in progressive mode?

My VGA004 is in.

Strangely enough it passes a 15kHz signal, implying that it's different internally than the VGA005. Which means I should probably find a way to oscilloscope test it just in case. Not sure about how to do that easily yet. Is there such a thing as an extension for the wii analog video port?


Further thoughts on scan rate: In theory an analog device could double the scan rate (which would be the same as deinterlacing as I understand it) without incurring any *additional* lag, but you'd still be suffering from the problem of one of the odd/even fields being one frame behind on any given frame.

I don't think that's necessarily true about a field lagging a frame behind. In the case of a CRT displaying interlaced, 60 fps video, I believe the two fields are actually both separate frames, but with half of their lines missing. (I mean, you're not actually looking at 120 fields per second.) So whether its missing lines are recreated by copying the previous line or interpolating, you'd have the full frames delayed only by the time it takes to store/display a line or so (like Kadano just said as I'm typing this).

 

[jmlee337]

Well, here's my results of looking at sync signals on the VGA005

Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be any visible problems with the timing of the output sync signals. There's a thing that happens at the right time apparently every time. Unless there's some issue with the voltage or whether the line is going low or high, I've no idea what the problem could be.

 

[rED023b]

If I have an Avermedia LGP and a component cable, which is the best to play on?

 

[jmlee337]

You're gonna have to be more specific than that. What are your options, in detail?

 

[Kadano]

If I have an Avermedia LGP and a component cable, which is the best to play on?

Sony PVM20L5. If that’s too expensive, choose one of these that has the things you want:

 

[TFS | Zeb]

Hi Kadano,

You seem to be the most knowledgeable person out there about this, so I'd like to pose it to you. I'm looking to start recording my own Melee matches from my CRT for future viewing whenever I'm at tournament or in friendlies and stuff. I recently ordered a PVM-14M4U for a decent price and am probably going to use that to carry around. I've read lots of good things about the Xcapture-1, both on other websites and by yourself, and the fact that it can also record other consoles if need be is an excellent feature, so I'm thinking of springing for this one.

Is this all that I need? I know GIMR uses a BMI Shuttle with the Xcapture-1, but I'm not sure for what reason. I use a Wii with component cables at the moment, so I think I need the D-terminal to component adapter as well. How might the setup look like? I'm not sure how to output the video to the CRT as well as to record it onto my laptop. Would it be Wii → component cable to D-terminal adapter → Xcapture-1 → laptop via USB-3 and CRT via additional component cables?

So to summarize, I have:

A Wii with component cables
Sony PVM-14M4U
Retina Macbook Pro that has two USB 3.0 ports

I want to:

Record Melee at the highest resolution I can get, and 60 fps is mandatory.

Thanks for your help!

 

[Kadano]

Hi Kadano,

You seem to be the most knowledgeable person out there about this, so I'd like to pose it to you. I'm looking to start recording my own Melee matches from my CRT for future viewing whenever I'm at tournament or in friendlies and stuff. I recently ordered a PVM-14M4U for a decent price and am probably going to use that to carry around. I've read lots of good things about the Xcapture-1, both on other websites and by yourself, and the fact that it can also record other consoles if need be is an excellent feature, so I'm thinking of springing for this one.

Is this all that I need? I know GIMR uses a BMI Shuttle with the Xcapture-1, but I'm not sure for what reason. I use a Wii with component cables at the moment, so I think I need the D-terminal to component adapter as well. How might the setup look like? I'm not sure how to output the video to the CRT as well as to record it onto my laptop. Would it be Wii → component cable to D-terminal adapter → Xcapture-1 → laptop via USB-3 and CRT via additional component cables?

So to summarize, I have:

A Wii with component cables
Sony PVM-14M4U
Retina Macbook Pro that has two USB 3.0 ports

I want to:

Record Melee at the highest resolution I can get, and 60 fps is mandatory.

Thanks for your help!

First, let me explain why GimR needs the BMI Shuttle in his signal chain.
As you can read in the OP of this thread, Gamecubes and Wiis support 480p output. Recording this gives considerably higher video quality and frees up the CPU because it doesn’t need to deinterlace 480i video. (The highest quality deinterlace filters can’t even be rendered by top-of-the-line consumer CPUs of today in real-time, so 480i always implies a quality loss for your stream.)
However, almost all CRT TVs only support 480i. The same is true for PVMs, as you can read in the OP: “Models known to support 480p YPbPr: PVM14L5, PVM20L5, PVM20M7MDE”. The PVM-14M4U is not within this list, so it has to be expected to support 480i only. You can very well use it directly in your signal chain, but both the player’s screen quality and the stream quality will be below maximum due to 480i.

So what GimR does is set the console to 480p and connect it to the Xcapture with the D-terminal-component adapter, then use the pass-through D-terminal with another D-T-comp adapter. The video forwarded to the PC and running out of the second adapter is still 480p, which most tournaments he’s at don’t have monitors that support this. So he pushes the 480p output of the X-capture into a BMI Shuttle, which has the feature of downscaling 480p to 480i-composite (with sub-ms lag, don’t remember the exact amount, probably a few µs). This composite output can be connected to any CRT TV, which are abundant at smash tournaments.

Your PVM-14M4U likely doesn’t support 480p, so you will have to do the same as him if you want 480p quality on your stream. If you think 480i quality is enough, you can just set the Wii to 480i mode and deinterlace in OBS with Yadif2x, avoiding the need for the BMI Shuttle. (Yadif2x is the best efficient deinterlacing filter that uses little CPU, but its result are considerably below high-end filters like QTGMC or native 480p. For real-time processing, Yadif2x is the best option you have.)

Note that both of these setups only have 480i quality for the players. Everyone who’s ever played Melee in 480p on a non-laggy CRT knows that this is a different experience altogether. The video is a lot sharper, in fact at first it is hard to believe that the Gamecube (and Wii) can have that amazing graphics. While VGBC and other streams have 480p as well on their stream output, these are encoded. Playing in 480p means that your video is lossless and thus much higher quality.

As soon as I found out about 480p, my goal was to have at least two 480p CRT setups. I have five by now.
The first one is a Sony PVM20M7MDE (bought this for 160€), fed by a Wii with component cables and 480p. The PVM’s pass-through outputs are connected to my StarTech PEXHDCAP directly.
The second one is a set of high-end PC CRT monitors (I paid 5-15€ for each) that do 480p and higher and are fed by a Gamecube with DAC cables that are modded for VGA output, which is connected to a 4-way distribution amplifier (that connects to 3 CRTs at once and my StarTech PEXHDCAP capture card). This is my main setup, and between the Gamecube-VGA and the distribution amplifier there is a 4-way video switch that also has inputs for Wii-VGA (cables are 15€) and PC-VGA. The output of the switch (bought this for 1€) is run through an Extron 164xi, which is only necessary technically for Wii-VGA since that has unclean sync that cannot be dist-amped (as mentioned in the OP). I paid ~45€ for the 164xi, it’s cheaper in the USA.
The third, fourth and fifth ones are additional PC CRT monitors with Wii VGA cables, but without any recording connected.

In other words, to reach your goal of recording Melee at the highest resolution you can get (480p), you need to either replace your PVM with a 480p-capable PVM (or a PC CRT, Wii-VGA cables / converter and possibly an Extron 164xi, which should still be much cheaper altogether) or use the BMI Shuttle as well.

 

[jmlee337]

While the PVM-14M4U likely only displays up to 480i, I'm fairly certain that its output will pass through the original 480p signal. Given the professional use cases that it was designed for, the whole point of the PVM/BVM line is to see exactly what the signal is. Either way you already bought it, so just check what kind of signal you get once the capture card you decide on arrives.

FWIW, any PVM/BVM/professional quality monitor will look way better than your average CRT tv, even at 480i. OTOH, I can also attest to the glory that is playing melee in 480p. I myself have one 480p setup since I was able to find a high-end PC CRT monitor at a local computer recycling shop for $25. If you want to go that route, the key words you should be looking for are "Trinitron" (or imitation brands EG. Diamondtron) or "aperture grille" when referring to the CRT type. Your incoming PVM should have a Trinitron tube and once you look at it up close, it will be trivially easy to identify that display type in the wild.

BMI Shuttle Component to Composite latency is 60 us (0.36% of one frame or ~17x improvement over lowest currently possible LCD latency). Note, it only passes through (even component to component) when you "use" the input stream (you have to click 'preview' or 'record' or 'stream' in OBS), which is super annoying and a possible point of failure in a tournament situation.

 

[Kadano]

FWIW, any PVM/BVM/professional quality monitor will look way better than your average CRT tv, even at 480i. OTOH, I can also attest to the glory that is playing melee in 480p. I myself have one 480p setup since I was able to find a high-end PC CRT monitor at a local computer recycling shop for $25. If you want to go that route, the key words you should be looking for are "Trinitron" (or imitation brands EG. Diamondtron) or "aperture grille" when referring to the CRT type. Your incoming PVM should have a Trinitron tube and once you look at it up close, it will be trivially easy to identify that display type in the wild.

If I remember correctly, aperture grilles’ main benefit is ~25% higher brightness at the same power usage. However, this depends a lot on wear; some CRTs age better than others, independent of product line (at least that’s what I’ve read from many). My Sony GDM-F520 with aperture grille is still super bright, but my Sun GDM-5510 only has half of that or something. I have to set it to 80 brightness and 100 contrast so you can play on it in daylight well. And even then the contrast is rather low. My Philips 109MP, which has a shadow mask instead of aperture grille, has very accurate colors and high brightness. I only have it at a brightness setting of 24 or something.

So what I recommend is bringing your Wii to the monitor and testing its brightness before buying, regardless of model (as long as it’s 19" or more) and whether it has AG or shadow mask. But imho you should check out every “GDM” you can find, those have the highest potential I think.

BMI Shuttle Component to Composite latency is 60 us (0.36% of one frame or ~17x improvement over lowest currently possible LCD latency). Note, it only passes through (even component to component) when you "use" the input stream (you have to click 'preview' or 'record' or 'stream' in OBS), which is super annoying and a possible point of failure in a tournament situationo.

Additionally, there’s the risk of the CRT running the composite having some lag. A few years ago, ajp_anton and Armada reported that a lot of standard CRT TVs used at tournaments have lag, and they felt it was more in USA than Europe. I don’t think anyone ever measured CRT TV lag, but it’s been well-known that especially the late fancy-looking TVs with flat screens tend to have quite a bit of lag. Probably due to in-built comb filter and other processing to improve upon the inherently bad composite video.
My point is that I advocate keeping the signal quality as high as possible, and since we can get the highest analog standard of RGBHV / VGA from Gamecube and Wii, I think we should keep it at that within our signal chain and not downsize or downconvert.
For people like GimR who don’t have control over the monitors present at the venue for the stream, reliability is more important than video quality for the players. But in my opinion the Shuttle route only makes sense for streamers who travel a lot, if you host within your city (and, ideally, can leave the equipment in the venue all the time), VGA is the better way to go.

 

[jmlee337]

If I remember correctly, aperture grilles’ main benefit is ~25% higher brightness at the same power usage.

Some of the other benefits are finer dot pitch (essentially equivalent to resolution for a CRT), and lack of blooming due to heating of the dot mask. Conventional wisdom says that AG is better for imaging/gaming dot mask can be better for text.

 

[TFS | Zeb]

However, almost all CRT TVs only support 480i. The same is true for PVMs, as you can read in the OP: “Models known to support 480p YPbPr: PVM14L5, PVM20L5, PVM20M7MDE”. The PVM-14M4U is not within this list, so it has to be expected to support 480i only. You can very well use it directly in your signal chain, but both the player’s screen quality and the stream quality will be below maximum due to 480i.

Snip

In other words, to reach your goal of recording Melee at the highest resolution you can get (480p), you need to either replace your PVM with a 480p-capable PVM (or a PC CRT, Wii-VGA cables / converter and possibly an Extron 164xi, which should still be much cheaper altogether) or use the BMI Shuttle as well.

I see, I think I understand. Thanks to both of you for the exceptional help! For the most part, I think I will be satisfied with 480i. I initially really wanted the PVM-14L5 and was on the verge of ordering one (I prefer the smaller sizes are they are portable), but I could not find whether or not they had any speakers. For some, this isn't an issue, but I personally really enjoy and sometimes depend on the game's audio and don't want to lug around a sound system for the TV. The model that I got has a set of speakers. However if you'd be able to confirm whether the any of the 3 models you listed above do have speakers, then I'd probably just get one of those instead.

The idea of also carrying around an extra device (BMI Shuttle) doesn't sound too appealing to me; actually, this setup isn't for a stream, but more for myself to be able to improve my gameplay by recording and watching my friendlies and tournament sets on my own TV rather than wondering whether Melee or Smash 4 or PM is going to be streamed that particular week... So to that end, the fewer devices I have to carry around, the better. And it will have some use in recording Smash 4 replays along with some other console games. Am I correct in assuming that all I need is the Xcapture-1 along with 2 D-terminal to component cables?

Thanks again for the help!

 

[Kadano]

I initially really wanted the PVM-14L5 and was on the verge of ordering one (I prefer the smaller sizes are they are portable), but I could not find whether or not they had any speakers. For some, this isn't an issue, but I personally really enjoy and sometimes depend on the game's audio and don't want to lug around a sound system for the TV. The model that I got has a set of speakers. However if you'd be able to confirm whether the any of the 3 models you listed above do have speakers, then I'd probably just get one of those instead.

Image search for the 14L5 showed that it has audio inputs and outputs. It’s very unlikely to have audio connectors and no speakers. On the front bezel’s left side, there’s a MONO button as well, which I’d assume is for audio:

Two of the right side’s + and − buttons are likely for volume, but the image resolution is too low to tell for sure. Anyway, my PVM (20M7MDE) has a mono speaker, it’s good enough for playing Melee.

The idea of also carrying around an extra device (BMI Shuttle) doesn't sound too appealing to me; actually, this setup isn't for a stream, but more for myself to be able to improve my gameplay by recording and watching my friendlies and tournament sets on my own TV rather than wondering whether Melee or Smash 4 or PM is going to be streamed that particular week... So to that end, the fewer devices I have to carry around, the better. And it will have some use in recording Smash 4 replays along with some other console games. Am I correct in assuming that all I need is the Xcapture-1 along with 2 D-terminal to component cables?

Thanks again for the help!

You can either use two D-component cables and three RCA-BNC adapters or one D-component cable and six RCA-BNC adapters. With the latter option, you’d use the PVM’s pass-through.

 

[jmlee337]

I believe that Sony's naming convention is that PVMs have speakers built in, BVMs don't.

 

[Noc]

Would this be a good setup for high-quality 480p lagless Melee with streaming?

• Wii with component cable (e.g. http://www.monoprice.com/Product?p_id=5689), connected to
• component distribution amplifier (e.g. StarTech ST123HDA), connected to
  • component-VGA converter StarTech CPNT2VGAA connected to CRT PC Monitor (e.g. Sony CPD-G420S I can get locally for $75), and
  • speakers (e.g. http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00KVEIY4E), and
  • 480p60 capture card (e.g. Avermedia LGP), and
    
  • hardware mixer (e.g. Xenyx 802), and
  • projector with component inputs (optional)

 

[jmlee337]

That's an awfully expensive dist amp, but should work fine. Overall, looks good. What's you're plan for your mixer? In between dist amp and capture card?

 

[Kadano]

Would this be a good setup for high-quality 480p lagless Melee with streaming?

• Wii with component cable (e.g. http://www.monoprice.com/Product?p_id=5689), connected to
• component distribution amplifier (e.g. StarTech ST123HDA), connected to
  • component-VGA converter StarTech CPNT2VGAA connected to CRT PC Monitor (e.g. Sony CPD-G420S I can get locally for $75), and
  • speakers (e.g. http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00KVEIY4E), and
  • 480p60 capture card (e.g. Avermedia LGP), and
    
  • hardware mixer (e.g. Xenyx 802), and
  • projector with component inputs (optional)

Yes, I agree that this would probably work fine. I personally have had problems with dist-amping a Wii, but I think that’s because I used cheap Mayflash component to VGA converters that caused bad sync levels. So with your much more expensive StarTech converter, this shouldn’t be an issue. (I’ve never had it and haven’t read any reports from owners concerning compatibility with dist-amps, so I’m not 100% sure.)

Another way would be to first convert to VGA and then do the dist-amping. Whether that would be better for you depends on the projector and capture card you want to use. My experiences and what I’ve read from others concerning Avermedia have been somewhat bad, so I wouldn’t recommend the LGP. I know that it works fine for some people, though.

If the audio dist-amping is not necessary to you, you can save a bit of money by getting this dist-amp instead: http://www.ebay.com/itm/EXTRON-ANAL...848?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item23544645a0
You’d need quite a few BNC to RCA adapters, but these should be cheap.

That's an awfully expensive dist amp, but should work fine. Overall, looks good. What's you're plan for your mixer? In between dist amp and capture card?

Do you know any cheaper component+audio dist-amps? (Just curious, I haven’t found any except for the StarTech one.)

 

[jmlee337]

Do you know any cheaper component+audio dist-amps? (Just curious, I haven’t found any except for the StarTech one.)

http://proav.celabs.net/av-products/av-distribution/component-amplifiers/av400comp/ is what I've also heard recommended. They look like about $20 new on eBay.

Dist amps are dumb though, because they want $50+ for what is essentially an op-amp and maybe some filtering circuits. I'd just make my own for like, $5 in components ideally.

 

[Noc]

@ jmlee337 & @ Kadano
Thanks for the tips/ideas. I bought that component dist amp for $20 + free shipping from ebay (it was $80 on amazon).
My plan for my mixer: connect one stereo RCA audio output on dist amp and headsets (e.g. Audio-Technica BPHS1s) to mixer inputs, connect mixer output to computer microphone input, and use this input as audio source in OBS. I already have this setup with an S-video dist amp and capture card with S-video input but wanted to upgrade to 480p, plus I was concerned my 480i CRT had a little lag due to postprocessing.

Would the StarTech USB3HDCAP be better than Avermedia LGP? It sounds like could be a good cheaper alternative to the X-capture 1.

Edit: Also, I'm going to try this component -> VGA converter: http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=101&cp_id=10114&cs_id=1011407&p_id=7113 (also getting component cables from monoprice).

 

[jmlee337]

fwiw, you can plug the outputs of the mixer directly into your capture card given the proper cables, which I would expect to provide better noise characteristics.

The StarTech USB3HDCAP is a clone of the X-CAPTURE1 (uses the same chip), and I believe Kadano recommends it.

What do you need a component to vga converter for? Projector?

 

[Noc]

For some reason I hadn't considered connecting mixer outputs to capture card instead of comp mic in, will test that.

I plan to use the component to VGA converter to connect component dist amp to my Sony CPD-G420S CRT PC monitor.

I suppose connecting my stream computer instead of dist amp to a projector would be better. Would need HDMI splitter + long HDMI cable and use OBS projector feature to display the stream full-screen on a monitor for commentators and projector for audience. Of course you can connect a separate computer running the Twitch stream to a projector but the stream display will be delayed (though this could serve as like an instant replay display for those watching the TV that the match is being played on, haha).

 

[jmlee337]

I plan to use the component to VGA converter to connect component dist amp to my Sony CPD-G420S CRT PC monitor.

Oh yeah, forgot about that lol. Anyway, I don't think there's any smasher documentation about that converter, but it'll probably be fine. There's no reason that it should have any lag or anything.

I suppose connecting my stream computer instead of dist amp to a projector would be better. Would need HDMI splitter + long HDMI cable and use OBS projector feature to display the stream full-screen on a monitor for commentators and projector for audience. Of course you can connect a separate computer running the Twitch stream to a projector but the stream display will be delayed (though this could serve as like an instant replay display for those watching the TV that the match is being played on, haha).

Depends on whether or not you want the overlay. Your dist amp has a bunch of outputs so you can go either way.

 

[Dryillic]

After a couple weeks of searching the market, I found a couple other models of CRT reference monitors and ended up purchasing one. It's a JVC V1710CG. The picture quality is quite impressive at 480p and the unit has no apparent lag as anticipated. I also came across some other 480p capable reference monitors you may want to add to the guide. Here's a quick list:

BVM-D20F1U
BVM-F42U
BVM-1911
JVC V1700CG
JVC V1710CG
JVC V1900CG
JVC V1910CG
Panasonic BT-H1700

 

[Noc]

BMI Shuttle Component to Composite latency is 60 us (0.36% of one frame or ~17x improvement over lowest currently possible LCD latency). Note, it only passes through (even component to component) when you "use" the input stream (you have to click 'preview' or 'record' or 'stream' in OBS), which is super annoying and a possible point of failure in a tournament situation.

Instead of using the BMI Shuttle to convert component to composite, couldn't a converter like the ones below work well?
http://www.amazon.com/Component-Composite-w-Down-Scaling/dp/B003FJKHBU/
http://www.monoprice.com/Product/?c..._id=1011407&p_id=7114&seq=1&sortby=3&format=4

 

[jmlee337]

Instead of using the BMI Shuttle to convert component to composite, couldn't a converter like the ones below work well?
http://www.amazon.com/Component-Composite-w-Down-Scaling/dp/B003FJKHBU/
http://www.monoprice.com/Product/?c..._id=1011407&p_id=7114&seq=1&sortby=3&format=4

Don't see why not. It's just down to latency, which should be very low. I would hypothesize lower latency than the BMI Shuttle.

 

[Noc]

I tested my setup (Wii -> component distrib amp -> Monoprice component-VGA converter -> Sony CPD-G420S CRT PC monitor) at a tournament last weekend and some good players said they thought there was lag. Idk if it's just a case of people not being used to a 480p monitor setup, but if there truly is lag maybe the cause is the Monoprice converter and I should get the Startech CPNT2VGAA converter instead? Or I may just get one of the component to composite converters above and use the CRT I've always used as the stream TV before. I guess whether or not people believe a monitor is lagless is more important than it truly having minimal lag. It would be nice to actually measure the lag though it seems complicated/requires special equipment unless the input delay tester code could work on console.

 

[Kadano]

I tested my setup (Wii -> component distrib amp -> Monoprice component-VGA converter -> Sony CPD-G420S CRT PC monitor) at a tournament last weekend and some good players said they thought there was lag. Idk if it's just a case of people not being used to a 480p monitor setup, but if there truly is lag maybe the cause is the Monoprice converter and I should get the Startech CPNT2VGAA converter instead? Or I may just get one of the component to composite converters above and use the CRT I've always used as the stream TV before. I guess whether or not people believe a monitor is lagless is more important than it truly having minimal lag. It would be nice to actually measure the lag though it seems complicated/requires special equipment unless the input delay tester code could work on console.

1. It’s possible that those good players’ impression of lag was a placebo, yes. I’ve had one of the best players in my city tell me that my 480p CRT setup lagged too, but he later changed his mind and said it was fine and he was just having that impression because it looked different or something.
2. It could also be possible that your component distribution amplifier is the source of lag. If possible, you want to use only devices that have rated procession times. For example, the Extron MVX 84—which I am using currently—has a maximum propagation delay of 160 ns. Home user products are usually criminally underdocumented, so I recommend that you switch to professional devices if possible.

The MVX 84 is usually sold for something from 50-300$, but you probably don’t need its advanced functions, so the Extron DA4xi will be a better choice: http://www.extron.com/product/product.aspx?id=p2da4xi#spec
Rated with a maximum of 60 ns propagation delay, so even faster than my MVX 84. (Though everything below µs is completely negligible anyway. You’d need to chain 16000 DA4xis (or 6000 MVX 84s) in series to get the same delay as the very fastest gaming LCDs available (which most top players say are fine to play on seriously).)

The DA4xi can be had for 20$ or less and processes all analog video formats, so you can feed it either component or VGA. It has only VGA (D-sub HD15) connectors though, so if you insist on using a capture card that only has component-in and no VGA-in, you‘ll need to buy or craft three VGA to triple RCA adapters.

I’d do this first since the StarTech CPNT2VGAA is much more expensive than the DA4xi. But I’m sure Extron made a number of component→VGA converters as well, so I recommend hunting for those as well. (Should also be ~20$ or less since VGA is outdated for professionals.)

 

[jmlee337]

I tested my setup (Wii -> component distrib amp -> Monoprice component-VGA converter -> Sony CPD-G420S CRT PC monitor) at a tournament last weekend and some good players said they thought there was lag. Idk if it's just a case of people not being used to a 480p monitor setup, but if there truly is lag maybe the cause is the Monoprice converter and I should get the Startech CPNT2VGAA converter instead? Or I may just get one of the component to composite converters above and use the CRT I've always used as the stream TV before. I guess whether or not people believe a monitor is lagless is more important than it truly having minimal lag. It would be nice to actually measure the lag though it seems complicated/requires special equipment unless the input delay tester code could work on console.

Also verify you didn't have any dodgy settings on your monitor.

 

[Noc]

Thanks for the suggestions. Yesterday @Dan Salvato made a new input delay tester code that is pretty good for comparing lag with different monitors/equipment. I did extensive testing with it, repeating 30 times and averaging to help account for human error, and found the following:

• My setup of Wii component 480p -> CElabs component distrib amp -> Monoprice component-VGA converter -> Sony CRT PC monitor compared to 480i connection to a Toshiba CRT had +12.4 ms lag, significant difference (p-value <0.001).
• Wii component cable connected through CElabs component distrib amp compared with directly to component-VGA converter added 1.1 ms lag, not significant (p-value 0.69).

So basically it looks like the players were right about the setup having some lag and the cause is probably the Monoprice component-VGA converter or Sony CRT PC monitor. I plan to try the Startech CPNT2VGAA converter (in a previous post @ jmlee337 found this to be lagless using an oscilloscope).

 

[Kadano]

Thanks for the suggestions. Yesterday @Dan Salvato made a new input delay tester code that is pretty good for comparing lag with different monitors/equipment. I did extensive testing with it, repeating 30 times and averaging to help account for human error, and found the following:

• My setup of Wii component 480p -> CElabs component distrib amp -> Monoprice component-VGA converter -> Sony CRT PC monitor compared to 480i connection to a Toshiba CRT had +12.4 ms lag, significant difference (p-value <0.001).
• Wii component cable connected through CElabs component distrib amp compared with directly to component-VGA converter added 1.1 ms lag, not significant (p-value 0.69).

So basically it looks like the players were right about the setup having some lag and the cause is probably the Monoprice component-VGA converter or Sony CRT PC monitor. I plan to try the Startech CPNT2VGAA converter (in a previous post @ jmlee337 found this to be lagless using an oscilloscope).

Really curious whether the StarTech converter will remove the lag. CRT PC monitors have been reliably tested to have 670 ns of “lag”, so it would be very weird if your Sony turned out to be the source of lag.

 

[Noc]

Good news! It seems the StarTech converter did remove the lag and the problem was the Monoprice converter, NOT the Sony CRT PC monitor. I used the same test method as before. My setup of Wii component 480p -> StarTech component-VGA converter -> Sony CPD-G420S monitor compared to 480i connection to a Samsung CRT did not have a significant difference of average milliseconds of lag (p-value = 0.49). In a test directly comparing the StarTech and Monoprice converters, the Monoprice converter had +6ms lag, a significant increase (p-value <0.01).

I also tested this component-composite converter (which I ordered as a backup in case the above setup lagged), supposed to be Sewell but what I received seems to be a generic brand converter. Unfortunately, it had about half a frame of lag when downconverting compared to Wii 480i connection to the same CRT (p-value <0.01). It would be interesting to test the Monoprice component-composite converter but given that the picture looks very similar to the component-composite converter I got AND the Monoprice component-VGA converter lags, I have doubts.

 

[Kadano]

That’s great, so we definitely have at least one “lagless” component→VGA converter!
I also just bought an Extron CVC 200, which (hopefully) does the same. (I paid a total of ~80$ including shipping and import fees.)
I’ll compare it to my other setups when I receive it too.

 

[jmlee337]

That’s great, so we definitely have at least one “lagless” component→VGA converter!

Heyhey don't forget about the VGA-005.

Anyway I used the lag test code with my VGA-004 and got nothing but zeroes. I'm skeptical about how effective it is though, since it can't measure sub-frame accuracy

 

[Noc]

Unfortunately, I've noticed that the screen cuts out briefly randomly every several minutes with the Startech component to VGA converter connected to my CRT PC monitor. The problem occurred even when I tried a different VGA cable, plugging the converter into a different outlet, a couple other AC adapters, and with and without component distrib amp. I know someone else with the Startech converter that has had a similar issue. This never occurred with the Monoprice component to VGA converter connected to my CRT PC monitor. Interestingly, the problem also does not occur when I connect the Startech converter to an LCD monitor. I may try using a high-quality SVGA cable, 9V 2A AC adapter instead of the 9V 1A adapter the converter came with, GC component cable, different converter e.g. VGA-005, or a different CRT PC monitor.

 

[jmlee337]

Unfortunately, I've noticed that the screen cuts out briefly randomly every several minutes with the Startech component to VGA converter connected to my CRT PC monitor. The problem occurred even when I tried a different VGA cable, plugging the converter into a different outlet, a couple other AC adapters, and with and without component distrib amp. I know someone else with the Startech converter that has had a similar issue. This never occurred with the Monoprice component to VGA converter connected to my CRT PC monitor. Interestingly, the problem also does not occur when I connect the Startech converter to an LCD monitor. I may try using a high-quality SVGA cable, 9V 2A AC adapter instead of the 9V 1A adapter the converter came with, GC component cable, different converter e.g. VGA-005, or a different CRT PC monitor.

You might also check to make sure the cables are making firm connections inside the unit. I had to bend an internal contact a little on mine originally

 

[Kadano]

Unfortunately, I've noticed that the screen cuts out briefly randomly every several minutes with the Startech component to VGA converter connected to my CRT PC monitor. The problem occurred even when I tried a different VGA cable, plugging the converter into a different outlet, a couple other AC adapters, and with and without component distrib amp. I know someone else with the Startech converter that has had a similar issue. This never occurred with the Monoprice component to VGA converter connected to my CRT PC monitor. Interestingly, the problem also does not occur when I connect the Startech converter to an LCD monitor. I may try using a high-quality SVGA cable, 9V 2A AC adapter instead of the 9V 1A adapter the converter came with, GC component cable, different converter e.g. VGA-005, or a different CRT PC monitor.

Are you using it with a Wii? I remember years ago reading somewhere that the Wii’s 480p output is basically *** and it will output interlaced frames every 3 minutes or so. This causes problems with some devices that get “confused” by the sudden signal change. My experience so far has been that it’s more a problem on LCDs and usually the black frame doesn’t happen on CRTs, so it seems weird to me that for you LCDs work better. Maybe it’s a different problem but it seems too similar.

It somewhat makes sense that the Monoprice doesn’t have the black screen problem, it probably does some post-processing that accounts for the lag during which it deinterlaces the 480i frames.

Unfortunately I haven’t been able to find the source for the Wii problem description for several months now. I’ll edit it in here if I come across it.

You might also check to make sure the cables are making firm connections inside the unit. I had to bend an internal contact a little on mine originally

Hmm, that doesn’t sound like the build quality I’d expect from a 90$ converter. :/

I’ll review my Extron CVC 200 here when I receive it and test it with Wii and different monitors, maybe it ends up being the go-to converter instead of the StarTech.

 

[jmlee337]

Are you using it with a Wii? I remember years ago reading somewhere that the Wii’s 480p output is basically *** and it will output interlaced frames every 3 minutes or so. This causes problems with some devices that get “confused” by the sudden signal change.

FWIW, I just use the VGA-004 with my wii 480p now and I've never seen any problems with blanking.

It somewhat makes sense that the Monoprice doesn’t have the black screen problem, it probably does some post-processing that accounts for the lag during which it deinterlaces the 480i frames.

Sounds plausible.

Hmm, that doesn’t sound like the build quality I’d expect from a 90$ converter. :/

I know, right? >_>

 

[Dryillic]

Unfortunately, I've noticed that the screen cuts out briefly randomly every several minutes with the Startech component to VGA converter connected to my CRT PC monitor. The problem occurred even when I tried a different VGA cable, plugging the converter into a different outlet, a couple other AC adapters, and with and without component distrib amp. I know someone else with the Startech converter that has had a similar issue. This never occurred with the Monoprice component to VGA converter connected to my CRT PC monitor. Interestingly, the problem also does not occur when I connect the Startech converter to an LCD monitor. I may try using a high-quality SVGA cable, 9V 2A AC adapter instead of the 9V 1A adapter the converter came with, GC component cable, different converter e.g. VGA-005, or a different CRT PC monitor.

I've had the same experience with different CRT PC monitors using the same Startech converter. I couldn't figure out a solution but the problem seemed to vary depending on the circuit it was connected to. I could consistently get my setup to black out by turning off and on my bedroom fans and lights. Different venues would also cause signal issues and blackouts seemingly randomly. It would be interesting to see if a new AC adapter does the trick.

I ditched that setup for a good CRT reference monitor but I'm curious what was causing the issue because I still have all of the equipment for it.

 

[Kadano]

Concerning the Monoprice lag, I have some new theories:
The Monoprice converter has a VGA input too. There’s a similar device, but without plastic shell that has this too: GBS-8200

I think it’s likely that the Monoprice is based on the same PCB / chips as this one. The descriptions mentions a 24-bit ADC (analog-to-digital converter), which seems completely unnecessary considering both input and output are analog. However, I’ve read somewhere that separating the csync from Y into H and V is actually quite a demanding task, so it’s probably cheaper to do conversion to digital first, process digitally and convert to analog again for RGBHV output. This would explain why it doesn’t have black frame problem somewhat, and also why it has lag.
In this forum, they mention 16 ms lag for this device too: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/ind...PSESSID=najr35ogorgfkp4obf797miq15#msg1353760

So, my guess is that the StarTech has to do analog-analog conversion (since it has been shown to not lag), and maybe in better quality than Mayflash VGA-004 and -005? @ jmlee337 , have you tried connecting the CPNT2VGAA output to a capture card or dist amp? My experience is that the Mayflash converters’ outputs will not be recognized by these, so it would be interesting for me whether the StarTech converter does a better job at sync-cleaning.

(I’ve mentioned this a few times here, but you can still use the Mayflash VGA products with capture cards and dist-amps by running their output through an Extron RGB interface, for example 164xi. Total quality is quite good, but noticeably worse than Gamecube-DAC-VGA (probably impacted both from Wii and Mayflash).)