Work In Progress Perfect setups (TV/monitor, console, capture device)

[jmlee337]

I use a PS3/Wii cable for vga

 

[TyroKith]

I use a PS3/Wii cable for vga

Are you happy with your experience? Are they all basically the same brand or is there one in particular you recommend?

 

[jmlee337]

I couldn't tell you from my memory what the brand is. It may be somewhere in this thread. I assume they're all the same anyway.

 

[TyroKith]

As always, I'm typing this post a few minutes before I go into work so I don't have a lot of time (my apologies), but I finally got my Extron CVC 200!

At first all was good. Colors were good, lag was negligible, all that you'd expect. But about an hour or two into playing, just like Kadano mentioned with the YPbPr-VGA cables, my monitor started going black randomly. Except it wasn't just between bright and dark screens, it was while I was playing.

If you have any troubleshooting ideas please let me know. I didn't have time to experiment a lot this morning. My best guess ATM is that the Extron was being choked because I have my monitor, speakers, Wii, and Extron all plugged into the same surge protector. I have a couple other monitors I can try as well.

Other than that there was some noticable horizontal banding (is that the right term?) going on, like there was signal interference in the line.

Thanks!

 

[TyroKith]

Alright, another update. But first a little story:

So I purchased my Extron from an eBay seller. Originally I thought I was buying one of the two units pictured, but the seller actually mailed me both, including the metal frame both were being housed in. I'm pretty sure they thought the whole thing was one product, but hey, we take those. So I ended up paying $72 including shipping for two Extrons. Not bad!

Anyway, over the last couple of days I've been reaching out and trying to learn about my issues with the Extron. I tested both Extrons with two different CRT monitors, but the same issue persists: two strong horizontal bowing bands are moving up the screen (very noticable), and the amount of noise over the whole screen was considerable (like there was a slightly yellow film over everything). After an hour or two the screen would black out for a couple of seconds.

The guys on The CRT Collective (some were Smash players from Texas, shoutouts) FB group helped me deduce that this was some manifestation of a power issue, something I hadn't heard was a problem for the Extron before. Evidently normal wall power and / or a standard power strip would not cut it.

So after a little researching and a quick visit to my local Guitar Center I purchased a Ferman M-8DX power conditioner (about $120 on Amazon) and it cleaned up the image considerably. Not 100% where I want it to be, but like 85-90%. The picture is clean enough that it doesn't bother me anymore, I guess is one way of putting it. You can still see the horizontal bands but they're much less invasive. I might be in the miniority here with the issues I was having, but I highly recommend anyone getting an Extron to also get a Ferman. In my case, I needed it.

And with that, I think my 480p setup is at a point where I am satisfied. In the near future I'm gonna trade out the 10' long BNC-to-VGA cable for one only about 6" long, and I've reached out to eBay seller gamesnow to get a custom made fully shielded and grounded NTSC Wii YPbPr cable, and hopefully then I can stop spending money lol.

 

[jmlee337]

In my experience, the quality of third party Wii component cables can wildly vary. The ones I got from Monoprice are good, but the one I got from Goodwill is only acceptable when running into a 480i PVM. Looks like you'll find out whether that has anything to do with your issue soon enough.

 

[alasdaircampbell]

Hello everyone, this will be a long post. For a summary, go to the bottom. I recently received a modded Gamecube VGA cable (RGBHV), and it is having unusual problems. Its end is male D-SUB 15, but my VGA CRT (from 1993 by TTX, never seen specs for it) has a built-in male cable, so I'm playing through a dist amp (Kramer VP400). I've used gamecube and original Xbox YPbPr outputs converted to VGA with no problems (either through a startech CPNT2VGAA or the HDMI pass-through of a Razer Ripsaw capture card>HDMI-to-VGA passive adapter), but I get a very narrow widescreen image which scrolls very rapidly, similar to when you try to play PAL games in 50Hz mode on a TV that can't take that. This persists when I enable progressive mode. The output from the cable looks perfectly fine on a consumer LCD I tested (run through my Kramer dist amp) and on 1ms gaming LCDs (something by Asus). It isn't working well with my Startech USB3HDCAP (which I've tested to take gamecube and Xbox capture through the conversions mentioned above); it rarely gets detected and when it does it's as "640x2P 120.00Hz", though despite that, choosing the resolution as 720x480 or so does work on rare occasion, with a flickering green bar to the right of the gameplay.

With all that said, I wonder if, aside from having someone redo what must have been a shoddy mod, getting an extron rgb 164xi would solve this problem. I read through this whole thread and I didn't see a test for latency on the 164xi; does it have the Kadano seal of approval?

tl;dr vga cable gives rapidly scrolling, narrow image on CRT, doesn't work well with capture card. Is it a sync problem that can be solved by buying an extron rgb 164xi? Will it be lagless?

 

[renegadecrabman]

Another newbie here, I'm looking for a component to VGA converter that will let me play Wii U in 1080p on a CRT monitor. I've tried the Startech CPNT2VGAA with no success - the result was a noticeably dim image with gray horizontal lines spaced evenly all up and down the screen, while 1080i and lower resolutions were fine. I'm hoping the Extron CVC 200 or 300 are capable of converting 1080p input to 1080p output. I would appreciate if anyone could actually confirm if this is the case.

 

[alasdaircampbell]

R renegadecrabman it's a shame that doesn't work. I assume you've already made sure of this, but you've used other 1080p media on your monitor no problem? Checked your monitor's specs on CNET?
Now that that's out of the way, I've got a recommendation. You can use a cheap HDMI to VGA adapter that doesn't even need its own power supply, and there is no noticeable latency. I know it's a digital-analog conversion, so in theory it's more than the 1us of a Startech, but at dreamhack Montreal I had a setup of GCN YPbPr cables>Razer Ripsaw capture card>HDMI passthrough>HDMI to VGA adapter, and not a single person complained or even mentioned lag. Hugs and Dizzkidboogie played on it too. There are VODs where you can hear their voices which I can post to support this robust (though anecdotal) evidence.

 

[BlumpkinPatchKid]

Anyone have any info on the VGA input that some of the 480p trinitron TVs have? I want to use one (until i get a monitor) for my netplay set up and i have a trinitron with a vga input. Just curious if anyones tested or would know off hand how the lag is through the vga.

 

[Kadano]

Hello everyone, this will be a long post. For a summary, go to the bottom. I recently received a modded Gamecube VGA cable (RGBHV), and it is having unusual problems. Its end is male D-SUB 15, but my VGA CRT (from 1993 by TTX, never seen specs for it) has a built-in male cable, so I'm playing through a dist amp (Kramer VP400). I've used gamecube and original Xbox YPbPr outputs converted to VGA with no problems (either through a startech CPNT2VGAA or the HDMI pass-through of a Razer Ripsaw capture card>HDMI-to-VGA passive adapter), but I get a very narrow widescreen image which scrolls very rapidly, similar to when you try to play PAL games in 50Hz mode on a TV that can't take that. This persists when I enable progressive mode. The output from the cable looks perfectly fine on a consumer LCD I tested (run through my Kramer dist amp) and on 1ms gaming LCDs (something by Asus). It isn't working well with my Startech USB3HDCAP (which I've tested to take gamecube and Xbox capture through the conversions mentioned above); it rarely gets detected and when it does it's as "640x2P 120.00Hz", though despite that, choosing the resolution as 720x480 or so does work on rare occasion, with a flickering green bar to the right of the gameplay.

With all that said, I wonder if, aside from having someone redo what must have been a shoddy mod, getting an extron rgb 164xi would solve this problem. I read through this whole thread and I didn't see a test for latency on the 164xi; does it have the Kadano seal of approval?

tl;dr vga cable gives rapidly scrolling, narrow image on CRT, doesn't work well with capture card. Is it a sync problem that can be solved by buying an extron rgb 164xi? Will it be lagless?

It does sound like your Gamecube VGA cable has not been soldered all that well. I'd advise opening the large console-side connector, making good photos of the soldering and posting them here. Soldering on the chip connectors should only be done with a high-quality soldering iron, I learned this the hard way. (My first, really crappy soldering station didn't work well and caused a pin to break off, I had to melt away part of the chip's plastic housing to get access to the remaining pin inside. The soldering to it is still really finicky, so I handle that cable extremely carefully in order to not break it.)

If you have a multimeter, you can check whether the grounds and shieldings are common (they should be). But taking the pictures is a good first step.

It seems I never posted my measurements of the Extron 164xi and its 'input lag'. I fortunately had a text document on my PC still that labeled what I measured in all the archive measurements I have, and the Extron 164xi is among them. As the screenshots below show, if there is any input lag, it is far below 0.1 µs. Even 0.1 µs are already short enough that the speed of light becomes relevant – you'd have the same amount of delay if you went 30 m away from the CRT. Of course it's an entirely negligible amount and the 164xi can be considered 'lagless' even by the very highest standards.



I do think that there's a good chance for the 164xi to clean up the sync signals properly so that your CRT monitor recognizes the levels properly. However, I'd only buy one after having opened the cable and got some diagnose on the soldering to the chip.

Another newbie here, I'm looking for a component to VGA converter that will let me play Wii U in 1080p on a CRT monitor. I've tried the Startech CPNT2VGAA with no success - the result was a noticeably dim image with gray horizontal lines spaced evenly all up and down the screen, while 1080i and lower resolutions were fine. I'm hoping the Extron CVC 200 or 300 are capable of converting 1080p input to 1080p output. I would appreciate if anyone could actually confirm if this is the case.

The StarTech documentation only mentions the CPNT2VGAA to be capable of '1080p', not '1080p60'. So chances are it only supports 1080p30 and 1080i60, but not 1080p60.
Extron documentation, on the other hand, explicitly lists both the CVC 200 and CVC 300 as being capable of 1080p60: https://www.extron.com/product/product.aspx?id=cvc200

I do agree with A alasdaircampbell that opting for direct HDMI to VGA might be the better choice. HDMI to VGA converters are only 4€ and all seem to have 165 MHz chips, which should run 1080p60 (~125 MHz) just fine. I'll be buying this one here and test its lag: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Ven...er-3-5mm-audio-interface-for/32502163410.html
Because of my oscilloscope not being sufficient for triggering off digital video signals, I'll only do measurements for Melee emulation, maybe with cloned outputs on native VGA and HDMI→VGA. So I won't be able to measure its lag nearly as accurately as with analog→analog devices, but it should still give significance for whether the input lag is below 4 ms or not.

Anyone have any info on the VGA input that some of the 480p trinitron TVs have? I want to use one (until i get a monitor) for my netplay set up and i have a trinitron with a vga input. Just curious if anyones tested or would know off hand how the lag is through the vga.

Can you post a photo of the TV, especially of its back-side input panel? I'd like to say that the VGA RGBHV input, being in the native signal format CRTs use, will be processed directly, but with the late-era 'fancy' TVs, you never know which kind of annoying laggy post-processing they might have added. The design of the TV might be a somewhat decent indicator of that.
If the TV also has digital inputs, by instinct I'd say that it probably has lag on all the inputs. But CRT TVs that take anything above 480i60 are non-existent in Europe, so I'll probably never have the chance to test one to make sure.

 

[BlumpkinPatchKid]

It does sound like your Gamecube VGA cable has not been soldered all that well. I'd advise opening the large console-side connector, making good photos of the soldering and posting them here. Soldering on the chip connectors should only be done with a high-quality soldering iron, I learned this the hard way. (My first, really crappy soldering station didn't work well and caused a pin to break off, I had to melt away part of the chip's plastic housing to get access to the remaining pin inside. The soldering to it is still really finicky, so I handle that cable extremely carefully in order to not break it.)

If you have a multimeter, you can check whether the grounds and shieldings are common (they should be). But taking the pictures is a good first step.

It seems I never posted my measurements of the Extron 164xi and its 'input lag'. I fortunately had a text document on my PC still that labeled what I measured in all the archive measurements I have, and the Extron 164xi is among them. As the screenshots below show, if there is any input lag, it is far below 0.1 µs. Even 0.1 µs are already short enough that the speed of light becomes relevant – you'd have the same amount of delay if you went 30 m away from the CRT. Of course it's an entirely negligible amount and the 164xi can be considered 'lagless' even by the very highest standards.

View attachment 135383 View attachment 135384 View attachment 135385

I do think that there's a good chance for the 164xi to clean up the sync signals properly so that your CRT monitor recognizes the levels properly. However, I'd only buy one after having opened the cable and got some diagnose on the soldering to the chip.


The StarTech documentation only mentions the CPNT2VGAA to be capable of '1080p', not '1080p60'. So chances are it only supports 1080p30 and 1080i60, but not 1080p60.
Extron documentation, on the other hand, explicitly lists both the CVC 200 and CVC 300 as being capable of 1080p60: https://www.extron.com/product/product.aspx?id=cvc200

I do agree with A alasdaircampbell that opting for direct HDMI to VGA might be the better choice. HDMI to VGA converters are only 4€ and all seem to have 165 MHz chips, which should run 1080p60 (~125 MHz) just fine. I'll be buying this one here and test its lag: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Ven...er-3-5mm-audio-interface-for/32502163410.html
Because of my oscilloscope not being sufficient for triggering off digital video signals, I'll only do measurements for Melee emulation, maybe with cloned outputs on native VGA and HDMI→VGA. So I won't be able to measure its lag nearly as accurately as with analog→analog devices, but it should still give significance for whether the input lag is below 4 ms or not.


Can you post a photo of the TV, especially of its back-side input panel? I'd like to say that the VGA RGBHV input, being in the native signal format CRTs use, will be processed directly, but with the late-era 'fancy' TVs, you never know which kind of annoying laggy post-processing they might have added. The design of the TV might be a somewhat decent indicator of that.
If the TV also has digital inputs, by instinct I'd say that it probably has lag on all the inputs. But CRT TVs that take anything above 480i60 are non-existent in Europe, so I'll probably never have the chance to test one to make sure.

Sure give me one minute to get the picture for you. its at my house and im at work so waiting on my friend to take a picture haha. its the fancier type think its a 2001 era if im remembering correctly. trinitron wega kv-32fs420 think is the model number. i have one of the kvs-27hs420s as well but that one only has the usual connections and hdmi which ive read is laggy. trying to remember from old memories. I know its not the best size out there being 32 inch but i just need something better then my ****ty led tv that probably has over 50ms of lag haha. Gonna get a monitor soon just gotta save up a few more bucks.

While i have your attention heard anything about the AOC g2770pqu? solid price for the performance 144hz 1ms monitor. Mainly play netplay but have my crts for when friends are over or before a tourney

thanks for the help! ill have that picture in a bit.

 

[renegadecrabman]

A alasdaircampbell Kadano

Thanks to both of you for your informative replies. I'll look into the HDMI to VGA route, but the problem I have with the Wii U is that the brightness is strictly limited to TV RGB levels. I can't seem to find an adapter that will correct for that, and the contrast ends up being reduced. Unfortunately, the PC CRT I am using has no way to adjust for that either, and certainly no component inputs. The Razer product mentioned sounds interesting, and I'd not heard of that. Maybe if I could find out more about how it handles component passthrough (or even HDMI), I might be able to come up with a solution on the side of digital to analog conversion.

 

[alasdaircampbell]

R renegadecrabman just to avoid any confusion, buying a Razer Ripsaw (a device that captures gameplay for streaming and recording through a computer running OBS) is not my recommendation. You could just use the HDMI output of the Wii U and connect the male HDMI end of an adapter (like Kadano linked to, HDMI male-VGA female) and a VGA cable to your CRT (gender may vary).

 

[renegadecrabman]

R renegadecrabman just to avoid any confusion, buying a Razer Ripsaw (a device that captures gameplay for streaming and recording through a computer running OBS) is not my recommendation. You could just use the HDMI output of the Wii U and connect the male HDMI end of an adapter (like Kadano linked to, HDMI male-VGA female) and a VGA cable to your CRT (gender may vary).

I understand. The Ripsaw does look useful as an ad hoc component to HDMI converter with your attestation that it is virtually lagless.

 

[BlumpkinPatchKid]

Kadano sorry it took me longer than expected to get the picture. and a correction on my part the TV has a DVI input in the back not a VGA.

Here are the pictures.

hope this helps. My main concern is if this will be good enough to hold me over until i get a monitor. currently playing on a generic westinghouse 40" led tv with who knows how much lag. I know this TV probably wont be "optimal" but i feel like it would be significantly better than an HDMI connection on an LED tv.

thanks for any help!!!

 

[Kadano]

Like I wrote before, since the TV has a digital input, it will probably have input lag. The input lag can be substantial, 24 ms and more, and since I avoid CRTs like that like the plague and they are barely available here in Europe anyway, I don't have much data on their variation in terms of input lag.
If you play on it and it feels less laggy than your LCD TV ("LED" TV is a marketing misnomer that only refers to the backlight of the TV that has nothing to do with the monitor's speed), it's a better choice than the latter, but unless you use an oscilloscope to measure its lag, you can't be sure that it's as lagless as a proper CRT.

 

[BlumpkinPatchKid]

Like I wrote before, since the TV has a digital input, it will probably have input lag. The input lag can be substantial, 24 ms and more, and since I avoid CRTs like that like the plague and they are barely available here in Europe anyway, I don't have much data on their variation in terms of input lag.
If you play on it and it feels less laggy than your LCD TV ("LED" TV is a marketing misnomer that only refers to the backlight of the TV that has nothing to do with the monitor's speed), it's a better choice than the latter, but unless you use an oscilloscope to measure its lag, you can't be sure that it's as lagless as a proper CRT.

thanks for the info! hopefully itll hold me over until i get a monitor. Lookin at the AOC g2770pqu 144hz model. Should be able to get money for it sooner than later.

Thanks again for the help as always!

 

[Hecheslevokian]

I recently picked up an Extron IN1508 presentation switcher/scaler for use with a old dell m782 crt monitor I had lying around. However, my problem with it right now is mainly that it seems to not be working well with progressive inputs from my Wii. As soon as I set it to 480p, I get a double vision of the image, and it constantly flickers/cuts out, and just seems really spazzy. I'll try to add a few pictures if possible. The issue isn't with my monitor because I've used it with my PC and have been able to get progressive inputs easily. I'm wondering if the Extron IN1508 I picked up is broken or something. It works fine with interlaced inputs, but just doesn't seem to work in 480p. Also my component cables work fine on a lcd tv when testing in 480p, so they are also ruled out. I just can't seem to figure it out.

I'm perfectly fine with an interlaced image, I just really think I can get 480p on my setup which would be nice.

Pictures:

https://imgur.com/UgjuV55
https://imgur.com/DlYSw0q



Nevermind, It was a setting I was somehow missing in my IN1508 Settings LOL. My bad. Took me a bit to see that.


Also: I originally stated the IN1508 had noticeable lag, but that was just with interlaced inputs. Most likely caused by it's line doubling. I'm not noticing any now outputting 480p with a progressive input from wii.

 

[Brownpack]

I'm just gonna chime in here.

I recently bought ZeldaXPro's Gamecube HDMI adapter for the Gamecubes that have Digital out. I am currently playing on a LED PC monitor and I have to say it looks great! definitely a great thing to have, and is far cheaper than buying a PVM and the Gamecube Component cables. Thing is though, the larger the screen, the more stretched out your image will be, so it will obviously be better to find the smallest HD monitor you can that has HDMI inputs. Still, it's the best option since it makes connecting to the capture card incredibly easy.

Secondly, I came across a Sony PVM. it's the Sony PVM14L5. Thing is, when I got it, there were no screws on the housing. Anyone know what screws I need to close this bad boy up? I know it works, i tested it out with Melee and it's godlike, but I definitely need to be able to securely close it back up. Also, I'd like to know where I can get those metal plates that close up the expansion on the back.

 

[jmlee337]

I'm just gonna chime in here.

I recently bought ZeldaXPro's Gamecube HDMI adapter for the Gamecubes that have Digital out. I am currently playing on a LED PC monitor and I have to say it looks great! definitely a great thing to have, and is far cheaper than buying a PVM and the Gamecube Component cables. Thing is though, the larger the screen, the more stretched out your image will be, so it will obviously be better to find the smallest HD monitor you can that has HDMI inputs. Still, it's the best option since it makes connecting to the capture card incredibly easy.

Did you get the most recent updated one? I have the older one that fries your gamecube if you look at it the wrong way lol.

Secondly, I came across a Sony PVM. it's the Sony PVM14L5. Thing is, when I got it, there were no screws on the housing. Anyone know what screws I need to close this bad boy up? I know it works, i tested it out with Melee and it's godlike, but I definitely need to be able to securely close it back up. Also, I'd like to know where I can get those metal plates that close up the expansion on the back.

You should be able to find that info in the service manual: https://www.manualslib.com/manual/946967/Sony-Trinitron-Pvm-14l5.html

 

[Brownpack]

Did you get the most recent updated one? I have the older one that fries your gamecube if you look at it the wrong way lol.


You should be able to find that info in the service manual: https://www.manualslib.com/manual/946967/Sony-Trinitron-Pvm-14l5.html

Yeah, I got the most recent, smallest one. Works like a charm, and I'm wondering why there isn't a bigger movement to push these forward for tournaments. Melee tournaments will look so nice on modern monitors. But I do have to say, older CRTs, in all of their different shapes, sizes, and colors, will have their own charm that I wish won't ever completely go away.

Thanks for the link! I tried looking for a while and I actually couldn't find anything. So I'm reading the manual, and according to what I'm seeing, there is a "claw case screw (OS))" which I need 6 of to put the case back onto the PVM. I did a quick google search, and I came across this

https://encompass.com/item/3724813/Sony/4-063-969-01/Screw_(Os),_Case,_Claw

Each screw is $3 each. While I'm a little bummed that i'll have to pay $20 for screws, I also want that piece of mind that this is secured. So, I ask, do you think this is the right one to buy?

 

[Kadano]

Yeah, I got the most recent, smallest one. Works like a charm, and I'm wondering why there isn't a bigger movement to push these forward for tournaments. Melee tournaments will look so nice on modern monitors. But I do have to say, older CRTs, in all of their different shapes, sizes, and colors, will have their own charm that I wish won't ever completely go away.

LCDs have at least 5-6 ms of total display lag over CRT at 60 Hz. From my understanding, it's expected that the Gamecube HDMI output doesn't save nearly as much over analog output / Wii2HDMI, so GC + HDMI + LCD will not be truly "lagless".

Thanks for the link! I tried looking for a while and I actually couldn't find anything. So I'm reading the manual, and according to what I'm seeing, there is a "claw case screw (OS))" which I need 6 of to put the case back onto the PVM. I did a quick google search, and I came across this

https://encompass.com/item/3724813/Sony/4-063-969-01/Screw_(Os),_Case,_Claw

Each screw is $3 each. While I'm a little bummed that i'll have to pay $20 for screws, I also want that piece of mind that this is secured. So, I ask, do you think this is the right one to buy?

If the screws are the same ones as on my Sony PVM-20M7MDE, they have an outer thread diameter of 3.85 mm, a thread length of 7.00 mm and a total length of 10.32 mm. Outer head diameter 9.7 mm.
You can convert these units to medieval units (inches) by dividing by 2.54.

The appropriate US standard size seems to be #7, but for some reason that size is mostly unavailable in the correct type. The M4 (metric size 4) bolts I have around all fit just right, so I'd just order M4 screws from AliExpress: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/100...4-5-6-8-10-12-14-16-18-20-60/32703915664.html

I'd go with M4 x 6.0 mm, the original 7.0 mm thread length is a bit longer than necessary anyway. 6 USD or so with shipping for 100 pieces is a pretty good deal compared to the original ones, I'd say.

 

[Brownpack]

LCDs have at least 5-6 ms of total display lag over CRT at 60 Hz. From my understanding, it's expected that the Gamecube HDMI output doesn't save nearly as much over analog output / Wii2HDMI, so GC + HDMI + LCD will not be truly "lagless".

This is true. While the lag is damn near non-existent in my experience, it still is there, and it still is something that is noticeable, but I must say, it is a very good option. I honestly have come across some CRT tvs that gave more lag than this GCHDMI+LED combo does. Not every Monitor is the same though, but I still would say that the pros in this case outweigh the cons. You'll get a better image clarity and color than nearly all CRTs can provide outside of the obvious PVM/BVMs, modern monitors are way easier to transport, and setting up capture cards is incredibly easier now thanks to it using HDMI. I'd really have to say that overall, I'd be fine with playing with this and not ever looking back at old CRTs. Now that I finally have a PVM, there's no way I can go back to traditional CRTs. I keep my PVM as my personal gaming system at home, and then I use my GCHDMI when I travel and want to bring Melee with me.

If the screws are the same ones as on my Sony PVM-20M7MDE, they have an outer thread diameter of 3.85 mm, a thread length of 7.00 mm and a total length of 10.32 mm. Outer head diameter 9.7 mm.
You can convert these units to medieval units (inches) by dividing by 2.54.

The appropriate US standard size seems to be #7, but for some reason that size is mostly unavailable in the correct type. The M4 (metric size 4) bolts I have around all fit just right, so I'd just order M4 screws from AliExpress: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/100...4-5-6-8-10-12-14-16-18-20-60/32703915664.html

I'd go with M4 x 6.0 mm, the original 7.0 mm thread length is a bit longer than necessary anyway. 6 USD or so with shipping for 100 pieces is a pretty good deal compared to the original ones, I'd say.

Honestly, I don't know if the screws are the same, but I'm hoping they are and I have reason to believe they may be for the sake of simplicity. And these screws you're recommending to me now, is that all that's needed to hold the case together? Or do you believe that more is necessary? My PVM originally had these black studs in the back which kept the backing together with the shell, but all but one are now missing, so I don't even know what I'd replace those with.

 

[Kerghan]

Just to tell everyone that I bought the Asus VG248QE and it work damn good with the Eon GCHD.
You just need to have a modchipped gamecube (or SD Media Launcher) like me if you're european as Swiss is the only way to force 480p on PAL games.
Otherwise, the picture quality is insane and there's really NO LAG.
Thanks Kadano !

 

[jmlee337]

From my understanding, it's expected that the Gamecube HDMI output doesn't save nearly as much over analog output / Wii2HDMI

wait, what?

 

[Kadano]

This is true. While the lag is damn near non-existent in my experience, it still is there, and it still is something that is noticeable, but I must say, it is a very good option. I honestly have come across some CRT tvs that gave more lag than this GCHDMI+LED combo does. Not every Monitor is the same though, but I still would say that the pros in this case outweigh the cons. You'll get a better image clarity and color than nearly all CRTs can provide outside of the obvious PVM/BVMs, modern monitors are way easier to transport, and setting up capture cards is incredibly easier now thanks to it using HDMI. I'd really have to say that overall, I'd be fine with playing with this and not ever looking back at old CRTs. Now that I finally have a PVM, there's no way I can go back to traditional CRTs. I keep my PVM as my personal gaming system at home, and then I use my GCHDMI when I travel and want to bring Melee with me.

5-6 ms certainly isn't a lot and doesn't make a noticeable difference in most situations / for most people.
I agree that the pros might outweigh the cons, I just think it's deceiving and wrong to call these LCD setups 'lagless'.

Concerning image clarity and color, many VGA CRTs are still better than LCDs, I would say, especially in terms of contrast and peak brightness. (In recent measurements I did, my old Sony GDM-F520 reference VGA CRT monitor had about 3x the peak brightness than the BenQ RL2455HM set to 100 brightness, measured with two equally set photodiodes at the same time).

It's only the 480i CRT TVs that are clearly worse than 480p LCDs. As soon as you switch to 480p CRTs, it's hard to find any advantage of LCDs, except for weight and portability, of course.

Honestly, I don't know if the screws are the same, but I'm hoping they are and I have reason to believe they may be for the sake of simplicity. And these screws you're recommending to me now, is that all that's needed to hold the case together? Or do you believe that more is necessary? My PVM originally had these black studs in the back which kept the backing together with the shell, but all but one are now missing, so I don't even know what I'd replace those with.

Well yeah, when I disassembled my PVM, it was only the screws that held it together IIRC. There might have been additional parts that added to it, but since I don't remember them, I'm confident that the screws alone will be sufficient.

Any M4 size screws that look like the ones I linked should work. Local stores that sell screws / bolts should have them.

wait, what?

Analog to digital converters (as well as digital to analog converters) can, to my understanding, be assumed to convert from one format to the other within 0.1 ms or less, except if they do advanced stuff like deinterlacing, motion interpolation, overlays or frame rate conversion.

The cheap Wii2HDMI adapters don't actually do any interpolation, not even upscaling (even though they have "1080p" print on them), so most likely they don't have frame buffers or anything that could add more than 0.1 ms of lag or so.
Since I don't have a > 100k USD oscilloscope that can trigger off HDMI signal patterns, it's difficult for me to confirm that. I ordered a couple of cheap HDMI to VGA adapters though, hopefully these will work with the Wii2HDMI adapters so that I can compare internal Wii Y video output vs. [Wii2HDMI → HDMI to VGA adapter] directly and measure the delay.

For now, what I've done is comparing [Wii2HDMI to RL2455HM] with [Mayflash Wii VGA cables to RL2455HM], and both had the same amounts of LCD brightness output delay (5-6 ms over CRT monitor connected in parallel, depending on whether I counted until 80% or 90%% of peak brightness).
This can be explained either by both analog-to-digital converters coincidentally lagging the same amount, or by both of them being nearly lagless (less than 0.1 ms of lag).

I think that the latter case is the more likely one, meaning that the 5-6 ms of lag over CRT are only from the LCD's inherent sluggishness, not from the Wii2HDMI adapter.

By the way, I have three cheap Wii2HDMI adapters, one of them looks differently made than the other two and was bought 2 years earlier. All of them had the same amount of total setup lag.

 

[jmlee337]

Analog to digital converters (as well as digital to analog converters) can, to my understanding, be assumed to convert from one for...

Oh wait, let me clarify. Are you saying that effective latency Wii2HDMI == GCVideo (various digital out -> HDMI projects) == 0?

On my first read I thought you were saying effective latency Wii2HDMI < GCVideo which didn't make sense to me

 

[Kadano]

Oh wait, let me clarify. Are you saying that effective latency Wii2HDMI == GCVideo (various digital out -> HDMI projects) == 0?

On my first read I thought you were saying effective latency Wii2HDMI < GCVideo which didn't make sense to me

Yeah. By "doesn't save nearly as much over Wii2HDMI" I meant that the lag introduced by the LCD (over CRT) is (most probably) much much higher than the reduction in 'output lag' on GCVideo compared to Wii2HDMI.

It's 5-6 ms vs an expected 0.08 ms or so. In other words, what many people often say ("LCD is slower but there is no analog to digital conversion so it will be lagless") is an unlikely claim that has never been backed up with measurements.

Prad.de (who have probably the most advanced display lag testing method) usually lists total display lag as [input lag plus half of black-to-white reaction time], which in my opinion is somewhat biased against CRTs. On their fastest tested models, they reach final values of eg 3.9 ms at 60 Hz, of which 2.3 ms was from reaction time. So if we count from black (minimum light output) to 90% light output (instead of 45% like they did), we get 6.2 ms total display lag over CRT.

That is quite in line with my measurements of 5-6 ms. Since I used Wii2HDMI yet only got 6 ms (when counting to 90% light output), there is no extra lag in my setup that could be attributed to the Wii2HDMI. So the difference in lag between GC HDMI and cheap 5 USD Wii2HDMI adapters (at least the 3 ones I tested) is unlikely to even be close to 1 ms.

 

[jmlee337]

imo one tangible benefit to gcvideo adapters is that you can output analog a/v to the CRT while simultaneously getting 480p digital out of the digital output.

Unless you're PAL? IDK I saw Liva posting about that on Twitter, lamenting the lack of a non-Swiss way to force progressive scan

 

[Brownpack]

5-6 ms certainly isn't a lot and doesn't make a noticeable difference in most situations / for most people.
I agree that the pros might outweigh the cons, I just think it's deceiving and wrong to call these LCD setups 'lagless'.

Concerning image clarity and color, many VGA CRTs are still better than LCDs, I would say, especially in terms of contrast and peak brightness. (In recent measurements I did, my old Sony GDM-F520 reference VGA CRT monitor had about 3x the peak brightness than the BenQ RL2455HM set to 100 brightness, measured with two equally set photodiodes at the same time).

It's only the 480i CRT TVs that are clearly worse than 480p LCDs. As soon as you switch to 480p CRTs, it's hard to find any advantage of LCDs, except for weight and portability, of course.



Well yeah, when I disassembled my PVM, it was only the screws that held it together IIRC. There might have been additional parts that added to it, but since I don't remember them, I'm confident that the screws alone will be sufficient.

Any M4 size screws that look like the ones I linked should work. Local stores that sell screws / bolts should have them.

It is definitely wrong to say that LCD/LED setups are lagless. They may have minimal lag, but to outright say they are lagless is deceiving.

Right off the bat, I will agree that VGA CRTs/PVMs/BVMs will look better in terms of clarity, but in regards to color, I'd say that the modern monitors can match them, if not get really close. I mean I'm no expert, but from what I'm seeing with my PVM, the LCD/LED does seem to get really good color values. My PVM may just be old, but I tried looking through the menus for a fix, but it didn't do much. Perhaps in my PVMs prime it would be able to put out even better colors.

Back to the subject of clarity, I think another thing that would help in favor of LCD/LED is just getting the smallest monitors you can find. I originally played on a 28" monitor, and as expected, the imaged appeared too stretched out. I switched to a 24" and the difference is already pretty big. I'm now on the hunt for a 19" or even smaller LCD/LED that has HDMI + integrated speakers to use. Again, it may not be as good as a PVM/BVM, but I think it will be close.

I'm really the kind of person who really wants the best quality possible for the Gamecube, and I've went through every phase. As a kid, I originally used an RF adapter to connect my gamecube to an old 1980's wood grain TV. After that, I went to composite, with a slightly newer TV. Then found out about S-video. Finally got to the end by being able to purchase some gamecube component cables, only to find out that not all monitors were the same. I next saw this new HDMI adapter and hopped on that, and thought it was the best until I was able to try a PVM + component cable setup. now I'm in love with that.

After trying out nearly everything, the Gamecube HDMI setup really does seem to be the best overall. minimal lag, better colors than S-video on a crt TV, lightweight and more portable/convenience of a modern monitor, with just a little drop in quality compared to a high end CRT monitor, there's really not much you can go wrong with these. I just hope HDMI setups become cheaper down the line.

 

[meleniumshane90]

You have some missing and incorrect info on here.

480i
1. RF (legacy signal for ancient TVs, hopefully nobody still uses this nowadays)
2. CVBS / “Composite” (legacy signal for simple TVs, most common standard)
3. S-Video (best signal most(?) TVs in America accept)
4. RGB-SCART (best signal all TVs in Europe accept; also the native signal used by CRTs)

You are missing component video (YPbPr) output for 480i. You have it listed for 480p, but not 480i. Also, not all TVs in Europe support RGB SCART. Some didn't have SCART at all. Some only did composite over SCART. Etc.

. CRT EDTVs (average cost: 30-70$)

These have component inputs and support 480p. However, only some of them are confirmed to not have any lag, among them the Sony KV-20FS120 and the Sony KV-24FS100. Untested EDTVs should be avoided or at least play-tested at the seller's place before buying. Many of the EDTV CRTs lag 8-30 ms, which is borderline to completely unplayable.

Neither of those Sony TVs you have listed are 480p. They are both 480i FD Trinitrons.

I was checking to see if you lag tested any HD CRTs against CRT monitors and noticed these issues, so figured I'd contribute.

 

[Kadano]

You have some missing and incorrect info on here.



You are missing component video (YPbPr) output for 480i. You have it listed for 480p, but not 480i. Also, not all TVs in Europe support RGB SCART. Some didn't have SCART at all. Some only did composite over SCART. Etc.



Neither of those Sony TVs you have listed are 480p. They are both 480i FD Trinitrons.

I was checking to see if you lag tested any HD CRTs against CRT monitors and noticed these issues, so figured I'd contribute.

Thank you, I have corrected the two sections.
I'd love to lag test HD CRTs against CRT monitors, however outside of the Sony PVM-20M7MDE which I own and have measured already, I'm not aware of any 480p-capable CRT TVs (and even the PVM is not really a TV) to exist in Europe, sadly.

 

[meleniumshane90]

Thank you, I have corrected the two sections.
I'd love to lag test HD CRTs against CRT monitors, however outside of the Sony PVM-20M7MDE which I own and have measured already, I'm not aware of any 480p-capable CRT TVs (and even the PVM is not really a TV) to exist in Europe, sadly.

I'm not 100% on how my 30XS955 handles 480p -- scale it to 1080i or 720p or just display it as is. When I ran the manual lag test at 480p, I was getting 0.6 frames, which is likely my lag. I just need to get ahold of a good CRT monitor so I can test them with the mirror timer test.

 

[JAkeee]

Has anyone else had the problem that capture cards do not recognize the signal after going through an amplified splitter? I have a Shinybow 1-to-8 SCART splitter and I do not notice any degrade on the TV image when comparing my original signal to the one that went through the splitter. However, EzCap/EasyCap/whaever does not recognize the composite video signal anymore (the audio signal has never worked for me) and my computer stops reading the audio signal through the mic-in port.

Could it be that my splitter adds a lot of noise to the signal such that the capture device and computer cannot handle it while the TV works without a hitch? I would be very surprised if this is the case as Shinybow seems to be a reliable brand (or at least was). Is there any way to fix this other than buying another splitter?

At the moment, I do not have any other capture devices that I could use.

 

[Brownpack]

Just got one of these from a person locally who was getting rid of it for free. Got some BNC-RCA adapters and hooked this baby up. I gotta say, it's the Cleanest, Crispest, least laggy machine I have ever played on, but it just sucks that it does this green tint! I do remember someone here mentioning why it does that, but I just wanna ask, is there any way to get around this? I'd really love to keep this monitor, it's from 1995 and it's made in Japan!

 

[jmlee337]

Probably it expects RGB and you're feeding it YPbPr? (Same signal format, diff colors). If not that maybe a settings or calibration thing

 

[Brownpack]

Tried all the settings, and it's weird because when i tried to set the R G B levels, R and B are changeable, but G says it needs repair

 

[Brownpack]

I remember someone saying that you need a converter to make the component cables not produce the green tint when playing. Can anyone provide a link for what I need?

 

[jmlee337]

Archiving some knowledge from a Twitter discussion today

In 2014, Fizzi reported a Wii2HDMI adapter that had significant lag. It turns out this was a variation that had a 720p/1080p toggle button. Any adapter that has such any such toggle (it looks like they may have various form-factors) should be avoided. FWIW, at time of posting I am unable to find this toggle variation for sale anywhere. It may not be produced any longer.

Any Wii2HDMI adapter that does not have such a toggle can still be assumed to have 0 effective lag vs other HDMI solutions as Kadano has documented.

EDIT: here's another more recent Kadano post regarding Wii2HDMI latency and video quality: https://bitbuilt.net/forums/index.php?threads/need-help-creating-a-wii-tablet.3398/