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I don't have experience with these, but just from the looks I'd stay away from them since they might lag. If I was you, I'd bring a console to the seller's place and test the CRT before buying.I'm looking to acquire a few more setups and I was just wondering if there was any opinion on slim CRTs like this one. There's one on craigslist right now and it would sure make bringing setups to tourneys/houses a lot easier. :>
Also to note I did a few google searches on it and there were a few sites that reported it as lag free but I'm not sure if I can trust those
Thank you for doing this. I'm still waiting for my photodiodes to arrive and will measure all my CRTs when I receive it (7 VGA PC monitors, 1 Sony PVM and 8 CRT TVs).So I have some more photoresponse data from CRTs around the lab. I was able to measure 3 more VGA adapted CRTs and one LCD. I will eventually make a larger table with all of this data including the regular CRTs once I go to a weekly, but until that point here is some data:
Mitsubishi - Diamond Plus 73 (DiamondTron NF): 1.6 us
Sony - CPD-2003GT: 0.95 us
Gateway - EV700: 1.2us
Viewsonic - Graphic Series G70f: 1.3 us
LCDs usually use pulse-width modulation (PWM) to set a brightness level, which basically frequently turns the backlight on and off again. A 200 Hz rate is within the spectrum used for PWM, although iirc modern LCD monitors usually use higher rates between 500 and 2000 Hz. (Some newer LED-backlit LCDs even don't use PWM at all, which helps with lowering eye strain, and I expect lag measurement too.)Edit: The LCD signal that I saw was most likely a 200Hz (5ms) refresh rate. So that's why I couldn't see anything. I would need to have a signal generator that did black/white oscillations to be able to accurately test it. I could probably go to FD and let the background change a bunch though. I might try that if I get tired of waiting for the next weekly.
I just tested this, and I do get a good picture when connecting the knockoff cables directly to my StarTech PEXHDCAP (Yuan SC500N1/DVI). It looks quite nice even.
Are you accounting for even/odd line timing variations due to interlacing?Long post incoming: Primarily about the difference between overscan and input lag
The method for evaluation that I used for input lag testing of the TVs involved three main components other than the TV. 1) The signal coming from the Wii/GC which was split off one going to the oscilloscope one going to the TV 2) The oscilloscope used to make the measurements of a change in voltage over time and 3) The photodiode which would detect light hitting the diode with a change in voltage.
What this method tests is the time it takes between a signal being sent from the Wii/GC and compares it to when the Photodiode first sees light. But what that time represents depends on two main factors: Overscan and Input lag.
Input lag is the answer to the question: just how long does it take the TV to display a given piece of information? It has to take a change in voltage, move an electron gun, and fire. Does this take a long time? This was the main goal of my measurements but this ended up being a little bit more complicated because of the next part.
Overscan has to do with the amount of the image that is actually displayed. On older TVs, especially CRTs, the whole image isn’t displayed on the TV. The TV will cut off some image at the top, bottom, left and right. This is because there were a lot of CRT manufacturers which made very different products, and so the NTSC signal was developed to accommodate most use cases. NTSC signal usually gives a larger image than you need for your media (TV or otherwise) and allows for some CRTs to chop off a bit here and there. So if you tell a CRT to display information on lines 0-479, some CRTs will start displaying the information of line 0 at the top of the screen, and some CRTs will display line 4 as the top of the screen.
It’s important to note that the information is displayed at the same rate and with the same speed, but that there is less of the information being displayed. For TVs that display line 15 as the top of the screen, this information on line 15 will reach the screen in the same time that it takes for a TV that has no overscan to display line 15. In essence the only difference between a TV with overscan and one without, is how much of the image do you see, not how fast do you see it. More overscan means you see less image.
So what was I able to measure when I went to the local? I was able to measure (mostly) overscan. I measured the time between the first signal that told the CRT to display an image (line 0) and when the photodiode recorded light from the CRT. If the first line displayed is line 0, then I can accurately measure the input lag associated with the TV. I look for the time on line 0 and then I measure the time it takes for line 0 to display. But because of overscan, that’s not quite how it looks. Instead what happens is I look for the time on line 0 and then I measure the time it takes for ANY line to display. If it’s a line other than line 0, then I am unable to measure the input lag directly. Now I am measuring the time between when line 0 is sent, and when line 15 is displayed (or whatever line). This is the result of overscan and will increase the measured “lag” by 63.55 us per line that is cut off by the CRT.
The lag that I measured is likely due to overscan. This is likely the case because of two factors. The first is that I was able to measure several TVs with no overscan (I now have measured 6 TVs with no overscan), and for those TVs, the time delay is always <10us. The second is that the lag measured on TVs with overscan is a multiple of 63.55us. This is because a full line (there are 480 visible lines per frame), takes 63.55 us to display. So when I measured a time delay of 127 us, this is unlikely to be a TV taking 127 us to display an image and more likely to be a TV skipping the first two lines, and displaying the third. If it were truly just input lag, it would be unlikely that for all of the TVs, each of the measured lag was a multiple of 63.55 (+/- 10 us). Furthermore, it is apparent from the images of the oscilloscope that the increase in photodiode signal come at the same interval and matches up in phase with the GC/Wii composite HSync. Even with measurements that I set the cursors closer to the middle of a HSync phase, the actual photo response signal is much closer to the correct phase than I measured (I was trying to measure from onset of light, but perhaps I should have just done first onset of strong light).
If the delay *is* caused by overscan, then the input lag can be measured by comparing the increase in photodiode signal to the signal from the Wii/GC that immediately precedes it. For the one TV that I did measure this value it was less than 10 us lag. If it is not caused by overscan (which I believe to be unlikely), then the maximum input lag that I measured was on the order of 1 ms. While long for a CRT, it is not long for monitors as a whole. And arguably, unnoticeable by human perception.
What does this mean for the input lag testing of CRTs?
For right now I think it’s a fair assumption to say that the CRTs that I measured are lag less. The maximum total lag (ignoring overscan as a factor) is less than 1ms. But it also means that in order to measure CRT input lags directly that overscan must be ruled out as a factor. I have a signal generator which will insert blank lines above the image of a screen (which in effect pushes the actual image down into the visible area). This can prevent overscan from being a factor in lag testing, but it is a large piece of equipment. I think eventually I would like to test the TVs via this method, but getting the time off required to go do this measurement will likely take a long time. This would be the only way to know for sure that the input lag comes from overscan and not a slow TV. But in the meantime, even in the worst case scenario it can be reasonably argued that all of the TVs that I tested have an unnoticeable amount of input lag.
So for the moment, I think that it is safe to say that the CRTs I measured (and likely, most CRTs) are unnoticeably lag less, and given retesting that they may be even more unnoticeably lag less.
Finally it’s important to thank the TO of my local event, and all of the people there who let me measure their TVs. The TO brought a whole bunch of his own TVs and those make up the bulk of these measurements. Because I am a private person, I am not naming my region or the TO, but it is important to give credit where credit is due. Below is the measurements of the TVs that I took at that local and a link to the imgur albums of pictures of the raw data. I have also included the photoresponse data from my last measurements of the VGA-CRTs in a separate imgur album.
Konka - K2098U: <2ms
Magnavox - 20MT1331-17: 656 us (10 lines)
Orion - TV1333: 389 us (6 lines)
Quasar - VV-1330SA: 661 us (10 lines)
Sanyo - 0813310: 187us (3 lines)
Sylvania - W-4913LT: 816 us (13 lines)
Sylvania - Blurry: 959 us (15 lines)
Sylvania- 6413TG: <4us
Sylvania - 6420FF (2): 790 us (12 lines)
Sylvania - 6420FF: 252 us (4 lines)
Toshiba - 24AF46: 255 us (4 lines)
Toshiba - 13A23: 767 us (12 lines)
Zenith - TVBR1342Z: 646 us (10 lines)
http://imgur.com/a/bY5Ue - CRT VGA album
http://imgur.com/a/s3hal - CRT Local Album
That's a really good point. It wasn't something that I was explicitly thinking of at the time, but the way that I collected the data should have accounted for that. The triggering of my oscilloscope was based on the light source from the photodiode, and so I would manually trigger it and examine the signal. I would do each TV about 10 times and use the fastest consistent signal time. Because odd fields would give a longer time this would result in me only using the even fields.Are you accounting for even/odd line timing variations due to interlacing?
From what I've been reading, 480p CRT TVs lag rather often – your TV seems to be an exception. Also, the tubes on PVMs and BVMs are most certainly of a higher quality with better calibration. But it won't be nearly as night and day as 480i CVBS vs 480p YPbPr.So I was fortunate enough to secure a CRT TV made by Toshiba that has 480p Progressive Scan and seems to be pretty good in terms of lag.
In all honesty, are PVMs/BVMs worth it? Is the quality better than CRT TVs that can do 480p as well? I just really like the TV I have right now because I can connect many more consoles to it. But of course, I want to hear what makes PVMs and BVMs so great.
This might be asking too much, but could you confirm this by testing the same CRT and not using composite? That's of course assuming it has other input options (I'm assuming since this is PAL that the only other option would be component?)Very strange is why the Panasonic CRT TV adds an entire additional frame to the necessary 8.3 ms frame-doubling delay. I suppose it's possible that it also does different post-processing like comb filtering during that frame.
CRT TVs in Europe hardly ever have component inputs. Instead, we have RGB-SCART, which has nice colors, but doesn't do 480p unfortunately.This might be asking too much, but could you confirm this by testing the same CRT and not using composite? That's of course assuming it has other input options (I'm assuming since this is PAL that the only other option would be component?)
Great post yet again, Kadano, amazing work!
Finally, do you recommend any particular set of Wii to VGA cables?
Panasonic TX-29E40D/M and Samsung CW-28C75V.Can you give up the model numbers and more pictures of the laggy TVs?
According to its specifications, it does line doubling, but no frame doubling. Line doubling shouldn't lag more than 50 µs or so. However, Fizzi tested a Sony CRT TV with very similar specifications to yours to have >30 ms lag, so I'm afraid that there's a somewhat large chance your TV is laggy. Your TV even has the same suffix ("HS", which might stand for "High Speed" video processing that seems to lag severely).I have a Sony Trinitron KV36HS20. I use a wii with component cables and the TV says it is outputting in 480p when I start up 20XX melee. Is this a good set up or is there something I can easily do to improve it?
Thanks for the quick response. I wasn't really sure about it, but I guess I'll have to keep hunting for a better one.According to its specifications, it does line doubling, but no frame doubling. Line doubling shouldn't lag more than 50 µs or so. However, Fizzi tested a Sony CRT TV with very similar specifications to yours to have >30 ms lag, so I'm afraid that there's a somewhat large chance your TV is laggy. Your TV even has the same suffix ("HS", which might stand for "High Speed" video processing that seems to lag severely).
Googling this monitor leads to a TFTCentral review, which lists about 8 ms in total for your monitor and 60hz. Some other monitors (BenQ RL2455HM, Asus VG248QE at 144hz for example) have about half of that.Thanks for the quick response. I wasn't really sure about it, but I guess I'll have to keep hunting for a better one.
One other question I have is that I am currently using an Acer XR341CK to play netplay on. Is this monitor up to par with other ones I've seen recommended or not really? I've done some digging and can't seem to find anything conclusive that I can comprehend. Thanks in advance.
No. There just seems to be some correlation. Flat Sony VGA CRT monitors, for example, never have lag.So are all flat CRT's bad? Even Flat Sony Trinitrons?
Ok last question. Friend of mine has an RCA f32450. Would this be a good one? How can you tell? I'm just learning about the different features and what can effect the lag. Thanks again for your help Kadano.Googling this monitor leads to a TFTCentral review, which lists about 8 ms in total for your monitor and 60hz. Some other monitors (BenQ RL2455HM, Asus VG248QE at 144hz for example) have about half of that.
How can I tell? By googling for that monitor / TV and looking up specifications and release sheets. 100 Hz or 120 Hz is most telling of lag, but they aren't always listed as features even though they are present unfortunately. The F32450 doesn't have them listed in its sheet at least. "Digital comb filter" is not a good sign though.Ok last question. Friend of mine has an RCA f32450. Would this be a good one? How can you tell? I'm just learning about the different features and what can effect the lag. Thanks again for your help Kadano.
The Sony GDM-F520 are excellent monitors. You only get a green image with BNC inputs if either the monitor has gone bad or you tried to plug in YPbPr directly without converting to RGBHV.
I did that today, by using an RGB-SCART Gamecube cable with composite breakout ports. There is no difference in lag, still 25 / 8.3 ms.This might be asking too much, but could you confirm this by testing the same CRT and not using composite? That's of course assuming it has other input options (I'm assuming since this is PAL that the only other option would be component?)
Your CVC 200 broke? Damn, that's bad. I thought that they'd last 5 years at the very least, being (when new) expensive professional video devices and all. Do you know which part of it broke (power supply / signal processing)?Kadano Because I bought a CVC 200 that then broke, I have only been playing melee on my GDM-F520 without converting the output. Is that bad for the monitor (I would assume not, but it can't hurt to check)? Also, I've been getting the black screen as well, even without using a converter.