Peach's Changes, Buffs and Nerfs

[Razputin13]

Peach has long been the secret queen of shield pressure, with these shield stun changes, she'll be downright scary to shield against. Not as scary as Ryu, I'd imagine, but close. Double dair nair ftilt might be a reliable shield break option now?

 

[topspin1617]

The shieldstun changes would seriously buff her already strong shield pressure game. According to the patch thread, the new formula is assumed to be damage/1.8 + 3. That would mean her Nair would be -1 now from -6 and her Dair would be either -3 or -2 (the shieldstun is 5.7 so it depends on whether they round it up or down, before the patch it was always rounded down). Thats really insane! Dair to Nair would be impossible to interrupt by a Nair except by maybe Sheik and Luigi.

But of course, the formula might be incorrect.

Ahh I wish we knew all these formulas for sure... I'm a huge math nerd lol.

In any case I'm going to have to just play... see how the changes feel, if anything is noticeable. Have you guys noticed anything in particular to look out for?

 

[Meru.]

Ahh I wish we knew all these formulas for sure... I'm a huge math nerd lol.

In any case I'm going to have to just play... see how the changes feel, if anything is noticeable. Have you guys noticed anything in particular to look out for?

Only Toad has been changed, see previous post. This makes him a lot more reliable at gimping recoveries like Ness' or Bowser's, which has proven its best use.

As for shieldstun, the formula is damage / 1.75 + 2, likely always rounded down. Some moves have changed hitlag properties, most notable electric ones it seems, but thats not likely to have much influence on Peach's moves. On shield her moves are now probably:

Nair -2 (lol crazy)
Fair -12 (VERY hard to punish unless your spacing sucks)
Bair -10 (same as above)
Dair -4 (frame 5 Nairs will not beat Dair to Nair anymore)
Uair -7

 

[topspin1617]

Only Toad has been changed, see previous post. This makes him a lot more reliable at gimping recoveries like Ness' or Bowser's, which has proven its best use.

As for shieldstun, the formula is damage / 1.75 + 2, likely always rounded down. Some moves have changed hitlag properties, most notable electric ones it seems, but thats not likely to have much influence on Peach's moves. On shield her moves are now probably:

Nair -2 (lol crazy)
Fair -12 (VERY hard to punish unless your spacing sucks)
Bair -10 (same as above)
Dair -4 (frame 5 Nairs will not beat Dair to Nair anymore)
Uair -7

Right... I should have been more clear, I did mean in relation to the shield changes. I tried testing with my roommate... but he sucks lol. I suppose I was asking if there was anything notable that Peach specifically gained or lost... some moves that are no longer punishable, or something she can punish easier etc. I'd guess she'd benefit generally... especially if you play aggressively which I do. She could already exert a ton of pressure.

I suppose the most notable change I've seen is the number of Ryus online haha.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Could someone pretty please clarify for me what the numbers mean?

Saying 'Fair is now -12' - does that mean that if I hit someone's shield with Fair, they have 12 frames in which they can do what they like before the animation of Fair is finished? Does this take into account however many frames it takes for the opponent to drop their shield/initial frames for jumping?

 

[Meru.]

Right... I should have been more clear, I did mean in relation to the shield changes. I tried testing with my roommate... but he sucks lol. I suppose I was asking if there was anything notable that Peach specifically gained or lost... some moves that are no longer punishable, or something she can punish easier etc. I'd guess she'd benefit generally... especially if you play aggressively which I do. She could already exert a ton of pressure.

I suppose the most notable change I've seen is the number of Ryus online haha.

Oh, I thought you meant in general, sorry.

Nair being -2 is huge. This move is pretty hard to react to. Unlike a multihit move like Dair where your opponent can prepare their answer while shielding the first three hits, shielding a Nair requires them to react as fast as possible. I got ground float Nair to grab pretty often pre-patch. Post-patch thats going to be even harder to react to. For those who like defensive options better, ground float Nair is now completely shield on block, even if your spacing is awful.

Fair is also a big winner. Pre-patch, Fair was punishable by quick and ranged Dash Attacks (Sheik, Peach, Pit, Rosalina, Meta Knight etc) even with decent spacing. Dash attacks cannot punish it anymore, with decent spacing your Fairs shouldnt get punished anymore. Same thing applies to Bair, to a bit lesser extent.

Dair is only two frames faster, but those frames make a difference. Frame 5 Nairs (Ness, Peach) cannot interrupt Nair to Dair anymore. Likely only Sheik, Luigi and maybe MK can beat it, Yoshi will trade and others will lose, unless they commit to an UpB or something, which can be avoided by just floating away. In general every little frame advantage helps her Dair pressure.

Other than that, some others moves like Dtilt, Fsmash and Usmashes are also safer now, although the latter two are probably still punishable. Peach Bomber looks even stronger now too.

 

[Nabbitnator]

Since dair is -4 we have a tighter frame trap with dair fair so we will have an easier time either breaking a sheild, getting a jab or conditioning rolls which are now even more punishable then before.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Only Toad has been changed, see previous post. This makes him a lot more reliable at gimping recoveries like Ness' or Bowser's, which has proven its best use.

As for shieldstun, the formula is damage / 1.75 + 2, likely always rounded down. Some moves have changed hitlag properties, most notable electric ones it seems, but thats not likely to have much influence on Peach's moves. On shield her moves are now probably:

Nair -2 (lol crazy)
Fair -12 (VERY hard to punish unless your spacing sucks)
Bair -10 (same as above)
Dair -4 (frame 5 Nairs will not beat Dair to Nair anymore)
Uair -7

I don't understand what these numbers mean, can you please explain in the simplest way?
So from what I am trying to understand, Peachs already amazing shield pressure and attacks on shield are even better then before?
And also overall this is a good indirect buff for peach?
If so, Yaaay(Did that on purpose ) finally a buff after patches, I know she got a jab range increase, but that's really not anything I be happy about(I wish it could jab lock )

 

[Phan7om]

I don't understand what these numbers mean, can you please explain in the simplest way?
So from what I am trying to understand, Peachs already amazing shield pressure and attacks on shield are even better then before?
And also overall this is a good indirect buff for peach?
If so, Yaaay(Did that on purpose ) finally a buff after patches, I know she got a jab range increase, but that's really not anything I be happy about(I wish it could jab lock )

Here let me help

Nair being -2 means, if done correctly, the opponent can move only 2 frames before you can. If both were to put up shield, the opponent would put up shield 2 frames before you could. Most grabs come out frame 7 (or 8 i dont remember), so you would be able to move 5 frames before the grab comes out, aka Nair on shield is +5 against grabs if you wanna look at it that way.

 

[topspin1617]

Oh, I thought you meant in general, sorry.

Nair being -2 is huge. This move is pretty hard to react to. Unlike a multihit move like Dair where your opponent can prepare their answer while shielding the first three hits, shielding a Nair requires them to react as fast as possible. I got ground float Nair to grab pretty often pre-patch. Post-patch thats going to be even harder to react to. For those who like defensive options better, ground float Nair is now completely shield on block, even if your spacing is awful.

Fair is also a big winner. Pre-patch, Fair was punishable by quick and ranged Dash Attacks (Sheik, Peach, Pit, Rosalina, Meta Knight etc) even with decent spacing. Dash attacks cannot punish it anymore, with decent spacing your Fairs shouldnt get punished anymore. Same thing applies to Bair, to a bit lesser extent.

Dair is only two frames faster, but those frames make a difference. Frame 5 Nairs (Ness, Peach) cannot interrupt Nair to Dair anymore. Likely only Sheik, Luigi and maybe MK can beat it, Yoshi will trade and others will lose, unless they commit to an UpB or something, which can be avoided by just floating away. In general every little frame advantage helps her Dair pressure.

Other than that, some others moves like Dtilt, Fsmash and Usmashes are also safer now, although the latter two are probably still punishable. Peach Bomber looks even stronger now too.

Oh don't apologize haha... in fact, thank you for giving such detailed explanations!

I do have a question though and I apologize if it's dumb... but, for example, when we say fair is -12 on shield, I understand this means the opponent has a 12 frame "head start" on Peach in terms of the first opportunity to input a subsequent command. My question is: does this number take the shieldstun and nothing else into consideration? Specifically, does it assume Peach is NOT landing during the fair and suffering the landing lag?

I suppose this is really more of a general question, that is, when a move is said to be -X on block, this means that ignoring other variables such as landing lag if it's an aerial, and considering ONLY the shieldstun vs the attack's endlag, that the blocker can act X frames before the attacker?

As a follow-up question... when we talk about "acting as soon as possible" from the shielder's point of view, would this be the same thing as saying that the frame on which he can drop or jump out of shield is X frames earlier than any action the attacker could input? So like if someone wanted to block and then jab (for example), they have the X frames of advantage for dropping the shield but would still have to take their jab's startup into consideration as well in determining whether they have enough frame advantage to strike, correct?

 

[Meru.]

Could someone pretty please clarify for me what the numbers mean?

Saying 'Fair is now -12' - does that mean that if I hit someone's shield with Fair, they have 12 frames in which they can do what they like before the animation of Fair is finished? Does this take into account however many frames it takes for the opponent to drop their shield/initial frames for jumping?

I don't understand what these numbers mean, can you please explain in the simplest way?
So from what I am trying to understand, Peachs already amazing shield pressure and attacks on shield are even better then before?
And also overall this is a good indirect buff for peach?
If so, Yaaay(Did that on purpose ) finally a buff after patches, I know she got a jab range increase, but that's really not anything I be happy about(I wish it could jab lock )

Oh don't apologize haha... in fact, thank you for giving such detailed explanations!

I do have a question though and I apologize if it's dumb... but, for example, when we say fair is -12 on shield, I understand this means the opponent has a 12 frame "head start" on Peach in terms of the first opportunity to input a subsequent command. My question is: does this number take the shieldstun and nothing else into consideration? Specifically, does it assume Peach is NOT landing during the fair and suffering the landing lag?

I suppose this is really more of a general question, that is, when a move is said to be -X on block, this means that ignoring other variables such as landing lag if it's an aerial, and considering ONLY the shieldstun vs the attack's endlag, that the blocker can act X frames before the attacker?

As a follow-up question... when we talk about "acting as soon as possible" from the shielder's point of view, would this be the same thing as saying that the frame on which he can drop or jump out of shield is X frames earlier than any action the attacker could input? So like if someone wanted to block and then jab (for example), they have the X frames of advantage for dropping the shield but would still have to take their jab's startup into consideration as well in determining whether they have enough frame advantage to strike, correct?

\

Ah I should have been more clear about this. When I meant that Fair is -12 etc., I meant hitting your opponent's shield and then land immediately, which means you will get in landing lag immediately after you Fair. I have only taken the landing lag into account.

A more simple explanation:

Fair has 22 frames of landing lag.
When I hit someone's shield and land immediately after, I will be stuck in 22 frames of lag.
My opponent will be stuck in 10 frames of shieldstun (before the patch it was only 5 iirc).
He can't do anything for 10 frames, and I can't do anything for 22 frames.
This means that we're in a disadvantage of 12 frames (10 - 22 = -12).
During those 12 frames, the opponent can move but we can't.

HOWEVER, there's more!
It takes 7 frames to drop your shield, unless you grab/jump/roll/spotdodge.
If an opponent wants to do a dash attack, they will first have to drop their shield, which takes 7 frames, and the input an instant dash attack (pretty sure the fastest dash attack hits on frame 6, most hit later).
This means it takes 7 + 6 = 13 frames to dash attack, assuming you have a dash attack that hits on frame 6.
You can start shielding on frame 13 again, so you're safe, and the dash attack will be blocked.
The opponent can grab Peach though, since most grab come out of frame 6 - 8, but Fair has a lot of range and shield pushback, so you if you get grabbed, your spacing was probably off, or you got powershielded.

Hope this clears things up.

Comparison of Peach's advantage on her aerials before (left) and after (right) the patch:

Nair -6 -2
Fair -17 -12
Bair -14 -10
Dair -6 -4
Uair -10 -7

No idea what Peach Bomber was on shield (I don't how long she's stuck in lag after she hits shields), but it did 6 frames of shieldstun before the patch (it deals 16% damage on shield) and it now does 11 frames, so it's 5 frames safer.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Thanks M Meru. for clearing that up

It's good to see Peach is much safer on shield now. Dair and Nair especially are pretty crazy - does this mean it would be possible to Ground Float Nair someone and follow up with a with a Jab to prevent a grab follow up if they drop their shield?

 

[Nabbitnator]

\

Ah I should have been more clear about this. When I meant that Fair is -12 etc., I meant hitting your opponent's shield and then land immediately, which means you will get in landing lag immediately after you Fair. I have only taken the landing lag into account.

A more simple explanation:

Fair has 22 frames of landing lag.
When I hit someone's shield and land immediately after, I will be stuck in 22 frames of lag.
My opponent will be stuck in 10 frames of shieldstun (before the patch it was only 5 iirc).
He can't do anything for 10 frames, and I can't do anything for 22 frames.
This means that we're in a disadvantage of 12 frames (10 - 22 = -12).
During those 12 frames, the opponent can move but we can't.

HOWEVER, there's more!
It takes 7 frames to drop your shield, unless you grab/jump/roll/spotdodge.
If an opponent wants to do a dash attack, they will first have to drop their shield, which takes 7 frames, and the input an instant dash attack (pretty sure the fastest dash attack hits on frame 6, most hit later).
This means it takes 7 + 6 = 13 frames to dash attack, assuming you have a dash attack that hits on frame 6.
You can start shielding on frame 13 again, so you're safe, and the dash attack will be blocked.
The opponent can grab Peach though, since most grab come out of frame 6 - 8, but Fair has a lot of range and shield pushback, so you if you get grabbed, your spacing was probably off, or you got powershielded.

Hope this clears things up.

Comparison of Peach's advantage on her aerials before (left) and after (right) the patch:

Nair -6 -2
Fair -17 -12
Bair -14 -10
Dair -6 -4
Uair -10 -7

No idea what Peach Bomber was on shield (I don't how long she's stuck in lag after she hits shields), but it did 6 frames of shieldstun before the patch (it deals 16% damage on shield) and it now does 11 frames, so it's 5 frames safer.

Does this frame data include the frame drop of 7 frames or just the initial advantage/disadvantage on shield. If we factor in sheild drop would that make something like nair go from like -2 to +5, fair from -12 to -5, bair from -10 to -3, dair from -4 to +3, and Uair neutral on sheild drop?

 

[Meru.]

Yes to both.

 

[Meru.]

Peach's infinite has been confirmed to be out: Peach's first hit of Uair only hits airborne opponents.

No other changes are known yet.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Wow as if...., even though it was tough AF to hit any grounded character, with 1st hit of Uair, bug still.
Wow....they really went and did this weird change to stop an infinite.

 

[IvanPch]

can anyone confirm if her up smash got buffed? feels a lot stronger to me.

 

[DrakeRowan]

Ain't her other infinite still in? The one involving the turnip and footstool?

 

[DrROBschiz]

We all knew the Infinite was getting canned. Thats Ok. Just proves that Peach is the most balanced character of all time and I see these changes only benefitting us in the long run

 

[Key313]

Ain't her other infinite still in? The one involving the turnip and footstool?

Turnip loop is still there though it was never infinite. Nair sourspot stops locking around mid 70 or so and the turnip only lasts for 6 of them at that. Figured they would hit footstools instead of the up air.

 

[DrROBschiz]

Rumor floating that Fair got nerfed

Someone shoot this crap down quick please

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Is F throw a kill throw yet?

...no?

ffs

 

[Meru.]

Rumor floating that Fair got nerfed

Someone shoot this crap down quick please

Nothing got changed other than the first hit of Uair not hitting grounded opponents anymore (note that it does hit opponents standing on platforms because you hit them with a different hitbox).

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

I can't say I'm surprised the infinite is gone but I wish they'd given Peach a small buff somewhere. I'm still holding out for F Throw getting stronger - it would make KO'ing as Peach a bit less tedious vs some characters...

 

[Royal_Tea]

I can't say I'm surprised the infinite is gone but I wish they'd given Peach a small buff somewhere. I'm still holding out for F Throw getting stronger - it would make KO'ing as Peach a bit less tedious vs some characters...

I completely agree, but my main concern is her dash attack. Some characters can randomly get out of it at high percents. She needs a fast and reliable kill on the ground besides upsmash and backthrow near the ledge.

 

[ElementUser]

I just want Peach's turnip pluck to be as fast as in Melee

 

[DrROBschiz]

I just want Peach's turnip pluck to be as fast as in Melee

OMG that would be such a huge help since turnips in general were nerfed since brawl

 

[Meru.]

In case there are any changes to Peach, post them in this thread.

EDIT：No changes have been made to any character other than Bayonetta in the 1.1.6 patch.