Meta Peach Tactical Discussion: Frame data in first post!

[ilysm]

@ M Meru. I'm genuinely unsure if you're being sarcastic but a dance trot is what people are calling this combination of fox-trotting and Smash 4's limited dash-dancing. Essentially you do an initial dash in one direction, then once it ends you dash dance once (tap once in the same direction then immediately tap away), finish that initial dash, and repeat. I can't explain it too well, but this video makes it pretty easy to get. It's a very useful tech and I think it could have some really practical applications once it's used more widely.

 

[Meru.]

@ M Meru. I'm genuinely unsure if you're being sarcastic but a dance trot is what people are calling this combination of fox-trotting and Smash 4's limited dash-dancing. Essentially you do an initial dash in one direction, then once it ends you dash dance once (tap once in the same direction then immediately tap away), finish that initial dash, and repeat. I can't explain it too well, but this video makes it pretty easy to get. It's a very useful tech and I think it could have some really practical applications once it's used more widely.

I genuinely didn't know about this

I can't really think of any application but if people have found use for it with Peach I would be glad to know them!

 

[ilysm]

Oh awesome! Sorry. Just misunderstood. It's applicable in a lot of situations where dash-dancing would be appropriate in Melee. This tech seems pretty legit, it's not a repeat of perfect-pivoting where tons of people were crying 'wavedash' prematurely.

 

[Macchiato]

I genuinely didn't know about this

I can't really think of any application but if people have found use for it with Peach I would be glad to know them!

It's basically QFR, in terms if use.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

But then you combine QFR and Dance Trot and Peach turns into a monster.

 

[XinShot]

it benefits peach so much because she's usually so slow. but combining dance trot and QFR can allow her to whip out moves faster, especially pivot grabs. Peach's pivot grab is bonkers in range.

 

[Lemonade Candy]

Whats your current conquest points for peach this week?

 

[wedl!!]

I've been trying out Dthrow>Dair as an airdodge punish against airdodge-happy players. It seems pretty decent, if unreliable.

Thoughts on this?

 

[Key313]

You can do many different things depending on their percent. At lower percents d-tilt (though if they are air dodging a lot it might be teched) or another grab with the landing lag giving enough time in between. A turn around F-air or Up/F-smash at higher percents for a ko. Reading their habits if they like to jump away instead you can catch them with the parasol or up air if it's not away from you.

Had not actually tried D-air myself. Kinda shocking.

 

[wedl!!]

Any notable Peach mains going to BH5?

 

[Elite Smasher]

I wanted to do some probability analysis on Peach's down special. Does anyone know of, or can data mine for the contemporary probability of Peach's down special?

 

[Airgemini]

I wanted to do some probability analysis on Peach's down special. Does anyone know of, or can data mine for the contemporary probability of Peach's down special?

The game itself lists the probabilities for the Bomb and Mr. Saturn in one of her "Tip" excerpts (1/255 and 1/166, respectively). As for the Stitch, I'm unsure.

 

[Elite Smasher]

The game itself lists the probabilities for the Bomb and Mr. Saturn in one of her "Tip" excerpts (1/255 and 1/166, respectively). As for the Stitch, I'm unsure.

I am aware of that thank you though. I am looking for all of the data.

 

[Neku ネク]

How useful is Peach in doubles tournaments? I had planned on using her in one and I wanted to know what I should be doing or preparing for. My partner plays DK and he's very skilled at him so we're trying to figure out really good combos and setups for as many shady things as possible.

 

[PeachBooty]

How useful is Peach in doubles tournaments? I had planned on using her in one and I wanted to know what I should be doing or preparing for. My partner plays DK and he's very skilled at him so we're trying to figure out really good combos and setups for as many shady things as possible.

Peach is ridiculously good in doubles. Parasol is OP in doubles. However, she usually needs to team with a fast character. I've struggled with slow partners before, but I'm undefeated with my Mario partner.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lV87nmf_cZs

 

[Neku ネク]

Peach is ridiculously good in doubles. Parasol is OP in doubles. However, she usually needs to team with a fast character. I've struggled with slow partners before, but I'm undefeated with my Mario partner.

Yeah the parasol is OP. My partner and I use combos to lead into parasol on platforms for kills. DK and his cargo throw help so much. We've worked on our own clever setups for kills but I was wondering what else we could be doing.
My partner is a fast DK and plays excellently off stage.
Still what should I/we be doing?

 

[PeachBooty]

Yeah the parasol is OP. My partner and I use combos to lead into parasol on platforms for kills. DK and his cargo throw help so much. We've worked on our own clever setups for kills but I was wondering what else we could be doing.
My partner is a fast DK and plays excellently off stage.
Still what should I/we be doing?

I like to play ASSist with Peach. I like to float above and always be aware of a possible follow up or 2v1 edge-guard situation. For example, my Mario partner will be in the process of either spiking, FLUDDing, or caping an opponent, and I'll be floating above him ready to either help him edge-guard or Bair the other teammate. So, Mario can finish the edge-guard himself, without being interrupted. You can probably do the same with DK and all of his spike options. Just covering all of the options with your teammate for edge-guarding is HUGE in doubles play. You could have the DK play almost like an aggresive tank, where you just keep ASSisting his kills.

All in all, doubles is more about team chemistry than anything else. Just do what feels right.

 

[TSS HBIC]

I'm not sure this is the right thread, but I've got some (tactical?) thoughts.

Peach's punish game is what makes her so terrifying, having a large variety of true combos on pretty much the entire cast. Compared to Brawl, she can actually kill easier. Her approach game is better than brawl because of QFR, Float Cancel FFing, and (from what I understand, this caveat might be wrong) general movement nerfs across the board systematically.

What does Peach do against characters that exploit her weaknesses? She's floaty, light, and dies off the top easily. Her range is pretty good, but all of her really good ranged options are comparatively slow and/or are punishable on whiff (fair, fsmash, etc.). She deals well with projectiles because of floating and the movement options I mentioned, but has historically lost to characters that out damage her (Fox), out range her (Melee Jiggs Bair, Brawl MK), outmaneuver her (Melee Falcon), or all three (MELEE MARTH).

What do you do against characters that:

• Are hard/virtually impossible to punish on things that give the opponent character a high reward for such a low risk (making her punish game less effective)
• Have large amounts of kill power from a variety of places
• Can outmaneuver her/play aggressively against her off the stage
• Have fast disjoints/ranged attacks that beat her options in neutral (this one is heavily important)

I'm honestly thinking about Smash 4 Meta Knight mostly, but there are other characters I could see being a problem (especially with the nature of a patchable game where Marth could become a nightmare again). I'd wait for the MU discussion to go to MK and post my thoughts and findings there (Note: I'm impatient and forsee MK being a huge problem for Peach and the meta in general), but tactical discussion on the general things that make MK seem to give Peach a hard time seemed like the appropriate thread.

Tl;dr What are her tools against something fast, hard/almost impossible to punish, and clanks with turnips like MK's dash attack or something akin to that?

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

How do you do those techs that you were talking about at the start? I guess I need to try them, but being a FG player makes me debate if it's worth it just to learn it in LAG then wait several years before going to tournaments where I can apply without lag.

 

[TSS HBIC]

How do you do those techs that you were talking about at the start? I guess I need to try them, but being a FG player makes me debate if it's worth it just to learn it in LAG then wait several years before going to tournaments where I can apply without lag.

JCFF - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGxSNOCgRJI

QFR - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTYgTxnK8z0

 

[wedl!!]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oBLDQlPkQk

So this is a thing; going to work wonders for this character. Almost made for her.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Just came up with an easier version of that thanks to those guys.

 

[Meru.]

Ever wanted to fast fall after a Dair? Well, you can! After doing a Dair, do another Dair AND fastfall at the same. You will fastfall to the ground and autocancel her Dair (since the hitbox doesn't come out), so you will land without lag. Pretty cool for mix-ups (fastfall to grab/jab/dash attack those rolls behind or in front of you).

 

[Neku ネク]

Actually one thing I like to do is ff into Dair and then transition into down smash. Good way to rack up damage and unless they shield the Dair (in which case grab or retreat).

 

[Wiimas123]

Where do you guys think Peach stands in the tier list? I think she's mid A or high A-. I think people underestimate her because she has such a high learning curve and not many people play her.

 

[Neku ネク]

She's definitely not S tier but she's very high up there. She's so unusual and difficult to deal with if played properly. Many of my friends tell me to keep improving her (since I'm the only person who knows and plays her) because she's heavily underestimated.

 

[Meru.]

Has anyone recorded the frames of Peachs QFR (ground float hop), optimal JCFF (fastfalling your float optimalling) and A-canceled QFR? I wanted to which one is is the fastest and how many frames they last.

 

[BRUJO~]

M Meru. I have noticed that close range ftilt can be followed up by grab at 0-20ish percents against mid/high weight characters. Excited to keep developing the Peach meta!

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

On my gosh guys GUESS WHAT!
I fought.... Dark.Pch online just now.
Bro the battles were fun, I just wish I knew how to fight cloud.....But awesome nonetheless.

Glad I gave you some of my Peach, even if it wasn't that great....
But um do you have any advice for me? What can I improve on? I'm pretty horrible at improving/learning my mistakes so I hope you can give me some advice.

Other then that it was such an honor playing with you, hope luck is on my side so we can meet again.

 

[Poopysandwich]

So, has anyone started incorporating foxtrot-cancelling/dance trotting/extended dash-dancing/whatever the h*ck people are calling it nowadays into their gameplay? The timing for Peach's comes very easily to me and it's helped a lot in baiting out attacks and punishing with aerials, dash attack, or dash grab. Combined with Peach's already excellent movement options I think this could really help her in the neutral. It's a very underrated tech imo and I'd love to see it utilized in competitive play more often.

QFR implemented with it makes her a beast

 

[redcometchar]

Hey i think the infinite is still in post patch. The hitbox position is different but im pretty sure its still here.

 

[Neku ネク]

Hey i think the infinite is still in post patch. The hitbox position is different but im pretty sure its still here.

I heard this too and I assume that it only works on the taller members of the cast since no longer works on Sheik (and she was mid height).

 

[redcometchar]

I heard this too and I assume that it only works on the taller members of the cast since no longer works on Sheik (and she was mid height).

I was able to hit shiek with it too. Its at the ball of the rainbow on either side i think. I also think there is one on the outside of the rainbow but im not sure.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Do you guys still think Peach has potential? Alot of people are saying she's a meme and not even that good of a character. Some are saying she doesn't even have results and that there was "plenty of time" for her to develop.

What do you guys think? I think she is still high tier and can still rise.

 

[Neku ネク]

I was able to hit shiek with it too. Its at the ball of the rainbow on either side i think. I also think there is one on the outside of the rainbow but im not sure.

That's really weird. I saw a Vine of Umeki, who's famous for being able to do it, and in his vine he showed that it was impossible to hit Sheik. He did it several times and, although it was a short video, none of his hits connected. I'm not sure what the difference is or maybe you found a way to continue using it. Who knows lol.

Do you guys still think Peach has potential? Alot of people are saying she's a meme and not even that good of a character. Some are saying she doesn't even have results and that there was "plenty of time" for her to develop.

What do you guys think? I think she is still high tier and can still rise.

Peach is definitely a good character and has tons of unlocked potential. She is difficult to really master in terms of movement and neutral, but she's capable of so much. I personally believe that she can be good, and although I don't have the results to show she's great I know that she will still be capable of great things. Slayerz, EOE and Umeki have shown she's capable of much, but they have great mastery of the character (Slayerz had his skill from Brawl days so that's obvious). She just takes a long time to really master, imo. I want to drop her because I don't get results but I've been told so much that my form needs work and that there's no reason to count her out.

tl;dr she's still got a lot of potential.

 

[redcometchar]

That's really weird. I saw a Vine of Umeki, who's famous for being able to do it, and in his vine he showed that it was impossible to hit Sheik. He did it several times and, although it was a short video, none of his hits connected.

Ill post a vid later today

 

[redcometchar]

WHoop whoop! first Youtube video!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwFmBUqqvn0

So here it is, I hit it from a bunch of different angles.
Turns out this is a completely different hitbox that has been here the whole time. If you watch the opening of Mysmashcorner's video on it, You can see at the beginning of the video when He is doing the infinite, sometimes Sheik enters a different animation after being hit. That is this hitbox in action. So there were two usable hitboxes before, and now only 1.

 

[Neku ネク]

I think because they changed the placement (or removed the hitbox entirely) that the infinite is impossible. The idea behind the infinite was to frame lock a character, Sheik for example, in a footstool while hitting with the soft hit from Uair. The ending hit of Uair deals more knockback, therefore making it impossible to perform anymore (so it seems). The angles you tried it at were missing, and those were the necessary angles from the hitbox needed to trap someone.

 

[redcometchar]

The endinghit of Uair deals more knockback, therefore making it impossible to perform anymore (so it seems). The angles you tried it at were missing, and those were the necessary angles from the hitbox needed to trap someone.

No its definetly still possible.

 

[Meru.]

The first hitbox of Uair has three hitboxes: early, middle and late. The middle hitbox only hits airborne opponents now, the early and late hitbox hit both standing and airborne opponents. This is why you can hit people standing on platforms: you hit them with the early and late hitbox, not the center one.

The middle hitbox is placed lower than the early and late hitboxes. It's in the center, on her arms. This was used to hit standing opponents with and this hitbox was used to infinite people. The hitbox now only hit airborne opponents so it's not possible to infinite them anymore with this hitbox. Most characters, like Sheik, are too small to get hit with the early or late hitboxes, especially after you footstool them so the infinite is not possible anymore on them.

There seem to be a lot of misconceptions on her Uair so to clear things up: the center hitbox has not been removed. There are also no changes to her hitbox placements, they are not placed higher or lower or more to the left or more to the right. No changes have been made to the knockback. The only change is to the center hitbox, which is located on her arms: it does not hit standing opponents anymore.

However, word goes on the street that big characters like Bowser and Ganondorf do get infinited using the early/late hitboxes, and thus you can still infinite them. I'm not sure of this though and they would remove it anyway.