Meta Peach Match-Up Thread : Cloud/bayo/Falcon/Yoshi/Ness/G&W

[Meru.]

Ooo, nice breakdown of his options. Definitely something to keep in mind.



And kills at, what?... 120%? :O

KILL SETUPS YEAAAA

Someone should go into the lab and figure out all our combos from a banana throw. It was important in Brawl when Diddy was top 5, but now it's probably THE most important information we could gather now with Diddy is #1.

I'm sure we have banana -> fair, which probably kills below 100%.

All right just went to training mode.

Banana > Dash Attack works from every range. Even if you throw it to him from the farthest position possible, it will still combo. If you're standing very far, you will have to run immediately after the throw, or else he can escape it. Be prepared he might fall out of the first hit.

Banana > ground float Fair works from about mid-range. If you stand too far from him, he can escape it.

Perhaps needless to say, but if you throw at him at very close range or Dthrow the banana, you can Fsmash or dash Usmash.

EDIT: Banana > Side B works almost always, except from the farthest range. If he's outside of Side B range you might have to dash sometimes. If he's inside Side B range, Banana > Side B will always combo.

 

[deepseadiva]

All right just went to training mode.

Banana > Dash Attack works from every range. Even if you throw it to him from the farthest position possible, it will still combo. If you're standing very far, you will have to run immediately after the throw, or else he can escape it. Be prepared he might fall out of the first hit.

Banana > ground float Fair works from about mid-range. If you stand too far from him, he can escape it.

Perhaps needless to say, but if you throw at him at very close range or Dthrow the banana, you can Fsmash or dash Usmash.

Would you have the KO percents on Diddy?

 

[Meru.]

Tested on an Omega Stage in Training Mode, Fair kills him at 113% from the middle of the stage and 89% at the side.

Dash Attack kills him at 144% from the middle and 143% at the side.

Peach Bomber kills him at the side at 145% and probably something very high from the middle (lol lazy).

Usmash (sourspot) kills at 124%.

Pan kills at 99%.

Racket kills at 95% from the side (maybe a bit earlier since he's not standing completely to the side. I hit him where he stands when you reset training mode).

 

[Tundra]

Does anyone know to recover properly against Diddy? I try to go for low recoveries most of the time, but I still end up getting hit...

 

[Benzerade]

Does anyone know to recover properly against Diddy? I try to go for low recoveries most of the time, but I still up getting hit...

Mix it up! dont always recover low, its definitely punishable. try to mix in so high recoveries.

 

[Benzerade]

Need help with Luigi's Fireballs. I can handle most of his stuff but not Ive got no answer against his fireballs :l

practice powershielding and aproach him with it and then read how he reacts.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I will be reading through all of this and then put my input on Diddy. Then make a write up either 2morrow or sunday. Then Move on to another character.

 

[adlp]

can we do ness next

 

[deepseadiva]

can we do ness next

Go Rosalina versus Ness. Don't use Peach.

 

[adlp]

Go Rosalina versus Ness. Don't use Peach.

but but but i wanna go peach

 

[Dark.Pch]

Ok so I read through all of these. Now I'll put my say in this.

You wanna remain mostly on the ground and have a turnip in hand while being close to him. Do not go in the air vs him unless you see a pattern of him trying to come at you with fairs. From here you can short up fair him or do RAR bairs as an approach. If you are close to him and you have him shielding, you can do SHORT hop dairs on his shield.

While staying close to him, you can QFR to staying moving and space pivot tilts. It's a good anti air and can snuff out alot of his approaches. DO NOT try to punish his side B with upsmash unless he does it high. If he does it level with you, you are likely to get hit. The best options to beat that move is a spaced fair, early timed bair or a Fsmash (Best option). If he does does leveled with you , you can also full hop dair to avoid the hit and then hit him from above. Single jabs as mix ups are good her (even if its not her brawl jab) Since people usually expect her second jab. And don't use any slow moves or moves can leave you over for a while. Such as Floating bairs/fairs. Attacks to use uplcose on him is as follow:

- Short hop dair. You can go into float if you do this quick enough and then space a nair and be safe from counter attacks vs diddy. Or frame trap with another dair while floating.

-Dtilt If you hit him with a space dtilt on shield, he can NOT Punish you at all.

Nair- Fast falling nair is safe as well as a spaced grounded nair.

Now if you stay out of his attack range, you can still damage him with turnips. If you do a floating dair and timing your landing on shield, you can run back to stop assults out of shield and punish with a reverse turnip toss. Then z grab it and floating in for pressure and do it again, or mix it up. As I said before, you don't have to challenge anything this fool does. So why risk it when you can deal damage from a distance. rack it up with turnips. Turnips also slow him down and he has to do alot of guessing where you will throw it, not toss it or attack with an air attack while holding it.

Your shield is also your best friend to punish air happy diddys. You can run in with shield and punish him out of it for dishing out fair.

So after learning how to deal with this jank character and fighting Jtails in tourny (I nerly beat his diddy) This match up is not bad as people make it to be. Peach can take him. Seriously, just don't give this fool what he wants and he is having a hard time. If he is aggressive, just keep moving and don't challenge a damm thing he does. He will leave himself open. or forced to defend. Giving you a chance to dish out the damage. Jtails says he does not like fighting Peach as diddy at all. And he rather go ness. He feels Peach can do alot of crap to diddy. People just dont know how to deal with his nonsense and he gets away with murder.

The main issue here is people don't know how to avoid grabs well, which diddy just gets free daage from. Thats his game. most diddys just wanna grab and what they will go for alot. This is how you avoid it.

- Stay moving
- Stay grounded. Being in the air can give diddy a chance to punishing your landing or forcing you to block.
- Play it cool when he has a banana. He is waiting to use that for a grab. Don't give him a chance to hit you with it.
- Space your moves

When diddy has a banana, he is not much of a threat due to him not being able to use his normals. From afar diddy will just his peanut gun to try and force and approach. and when he sees one, he will wait for an attack to counter with the banana or wait to block/evade a move, then go for the grab. If he is shieldng, leave him, he can't shield forever. You don't have to challenge that shield and give him a chance to grab you. He will have to move when the shield shrinks on its own.

If he is dishing out move, don't challenge it. That's another thing I feel people give to diddy. If he is swinging, let him swing. If he does and you are near him, this is your time to counter attack on his landing or force him to defend.

 

[Jtails]

I agree, Peach can stop a lot of aerial follow ups with her disjointed down air. At best for Diddy we'll trade with her.

As Diddy, fair is such a strong tool against floating and grounded peach, so watch out for that. The biggest issue is that turnips can really gimp is recovery, which is why I'd rather not use Diddy in this match up. I don't think it's a heavy disadvantage in peach's favor. probably close to even.

 

[Tundra]

Great analysis! This should make the matchup a bit more even as @ Jtails said.

But... If he manages to grab you, is there anyway to avoid the followup? Or are you destined to get hit by his up aerial?

 

[Dark.Pch]

Just di away. At high percents with good di, he cant kill u

 

[Dark.Pch]

Im gonna close this up. Lets start a new character. Who do u guys want?

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

We can always go back to Diddy if things drastically change after the next patch.

Perhaps we should do someone like Yoshi or Luigi or Ness? All very dangerous characters if you don't know the match up

 

[adlp]

i'm voting for ness

i need halp

 

[Pippu]

Voting for Yoshi, he's a spooky character if you don't respect and understand what he is doing

 

[LightningLuxray]

Seconding Yoshi. He's probably the top / high tier I struggle with the most. Eggs, nair, and super armor double jump are a *****.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

How about Kirby or Zelda?
Maybe Jiggly too.

 

[deepseadiva]

I'll vote Ness. Everyone has a goddamn pocket Ness. Yoshi is a good choice as well.

Though this game might be very different after the Mewtwo patch next week.

 

[Meru.]

Let's wait a week until the patch happens. I doubt the characters are going to change a lot but there might be a possibility they are going to tweaked drastically. In that case our match-up discussion would be worthless.

Especially if we're gonna discuss Yoshi... Chances are high he's going to get some nerf or another.

 

[Macchiato]

Im gonna close this up. Lets start a new character. Who do u guys want?

Yoshi, anyways do you want me to make a big match up chart?

 

[JigglyZelda003]

I think Luigi is a bigger nightmare to Peach and should be discussed next, be it post patch or not. Yoshi isn't that bad and Ness is just Ness.

 

[Macchiato]

I think Luigi is a bigger nightmare to Peach and should be discussed next, be it post patch or not. Yoshi isn't that bad and Ness is just Ness.

I actually have no problem with luigi tbh. I always thought it was a good match up.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

I actually have no problem with luigi tbh. I always thought it was a good match up.

Luigi used to be ok, then Sm4sh happened :v

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Yea lungi can be tough, those fireballs are like the main problem, it's easy to stop our float with them, plus his aerial have such low lag overall.
We have to mostly space our moves to avoid him, thankfully we out range him(and out speed him in terms of mobility slightly)
But yea if you can someone get past those fireballs this should be in our favor.
I will admit, he has some seriously rediculous moves, and that Cyclone is Soooooo annoying.......

 

[LightningLuxray]

I don't understand how anyone can find the Yoshi MU to be "not that bad" and then think Luigi is difficult. They have extremely similar attributes in terms of what makes them so scary, mainly the fact that they both have quick and powerful aerials that can easily compete with Peach's. Yoshi just has better durability and a better projectile, while Luigi has cyclone and slightly better aerial strings. I can't imagine the way you'd handle to MU would be very different.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

yoshi doesn't get free damage/kills from a throw. Yoshi just lives a long time. You can afford more mistakes against Yoshi because shield>Yoshi

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Plus he is much faster and has more range in his attacks and that double jump though......so no they are not really that similar

 

[LightningLuxray]

I think the main way that they're similar is that you're probably going to forced to approach in both MUs because of their strong projectiles. They also have aerials which can compete with Peach's. When looking into the character specifics, they're definitely different, but at a quick glance both of them have two options in their projectiles and aerials which make them difficult for Peach to take on. They're different in that Luigi uses his grabs more for damage / killing, while Yoshi relies more on his multi-hit moves and eggs. I do agree that you can afford to make more mistakes against Yoshi, as Luigi's grab is terrifying, but Yoshi still has strong punishes and a much stronger projectile. He also does have a grab to punish shield spam, even if it is quite laggy.

Maybe I'm looking at them too generally to be making the comparison, but I still find it difficult to understand how one can be considered troublesome and not the other.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

everyone can grab but Yoshi doesn't gain anything but damage grabbing. He has to mind game more for kills where as Luigi is the definition of "don't get grab"

yoshi can camp, Luigi is damage dependant. Fireballs can be daired and if blocked with a turnip in hand Peach can retaliate.

 

[Takehiko]

After playing a few games with @ミスティック Speed Speed Mew2, I've come up with this. Please help me fles out any details that I've missed.

Neutral Game:
• Fight mid-to-close range, so that you can limit his Fireballs, and stay out of the range of his side b (Goes through your shield), and disable (Fairly easy to mash out of)
• Dair pressure seems to be really good on him unless he Nairs, or sets up at kill percents for his Usmash because it lingers for a while.
• Be extremely patient during comboing him because he maintains the ability to teleport out of them. Especially Dthrow combos, so I mix up my follow up to throw off his timing.

Approaching:
• Mix up air and ground approachs, but as always approach with a turnip.
- To air approachs: Most Mew2's have jump forward Nair'd, so to limit me, and destory a turnip that I toss while retreating.
- To ground approaches: Most Mew2' have mixed up with tossing heavy fireballs, or tossing small ones and mixing it with a DA or Grab game.

Edgeguarding:
• Turnips force him to jump or teleport, if he teleports then you have enough time to grab another one and rack up damage.

Recovery:
• Mix-up recoveries, if he's too close, don't go low because he has a good stomp. His fair is really close to him, so Upbing him seems to be a better option.


! His kill moves seem to be: Fair, NB, Fsmash, Dair

 

[Dark.Pch]

Based on what people said, we are gonna talk about Yoshi.

 

[deepseadiva]

Yoshi is who I lost to at my last tournament. ALWAYS hated him. Eggs are so dumb! They are so long ranged and can go in so many different arches. His smash attacks are strong and quick. As his his close quarters game both on the ground and air. Very formidable character. >_>

What @ JigglyZelda003 mentioned about his grab is interesting. Glad to see we can turn to shield at KO percents, unlike against Ness or Luigi. His grab isn't particularly slow is it? Can we jab before he grabs us?

Also his shield is still slow to pop out of, right? I wonder if Peach in particular can abuse that.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Yoshi's grab is the same as its always been afaik, just like getting grabbed and thrown by Yoshi is the same old 50/50 situation. I personally feel its no big deal to be grabbed by Yoshi.

i thought Yoshi can act OoS now? i'm not sure.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Yes Yoshi can now act Out of Shield i.e. can jump out of it and no longer as to drop his shield beforehand. Someone was feeling exceptionally generous when it came to handing out the buffs in Smash 4 and Yoshi arguably received the most. Either that or he swallowed Brawl Snake on his transition to Smash 4 and gained an absurd camp game complete with huge hitboxes that hit like trucks.


He outranges us, outcamps us, out-damages us, out-KOs us... you get the picture - that's not to say that this match up is impossible because I believe it is absolutely a winnable match up (I'd much rather fight Yoshi over say Luigi) but it's an uphill battle, especially if the Yoshi you're fighting is competent at wavebouncing his Neutral B.

Important points to start discussion

- Be EXTREMELY careful when he is recovering. Fair will not hit him out of his Double Jump Super Armour and his Down B will cut through Parasol so watch it if you're trying to score a sneaky Parasol KO. Early kills are very hard to come by when fighting Yoshi since edgeguarding him is, generally speaking, impossible. Likewise, be careful when you're recovering as his Fair spikes! Don't fall into any traps with regards to this move...his Uair is also very strong so avoid that at all costs when recovering

- Eggs have a huge hitbox and, most of the time, attacks will lose to them. Best approach (and you will have to approach because Eggs > Turnips) is to shield. If you're close enough you can shield and then Dash Attack to punish or throw a Turnip if you have one. Airdodge or jump out of the way if you're in the air, don't try beat them out with aerials because it won't work

- His Up Smash is MASSIVE. Watch where you land and throw out those aerials. Be careful of Dash Attack too because that can knock you out of Float

- If your Yoshi is Dash Attack happy, shield and then get ready to punish behind you since that's where he ends up most the time when he uses this move

- Always always always be on the look out for his Down + B. If all the hits connect, it can very easily break your shield (I find myself sat in shield a lot of the time due to eggs/general Yoshi hitbox bull****) BUT if you're trying to score a Floating Dair, Yoshi can jump right on top you using Down + B! So be careful you don't get predictable with you're Floating

- Neutral B is such a pain as it punishes you for shielding (and you will be shielding since Yoshi has hitboxes flying everywhere). Roll away or OoS Turnip can counter this


I think the best advice for this MU is to play as safe as possible as Yoshi can rack up damage and KO ridiculously easy. Space your aerials well, use Turnips wisely and keep your mix ups fresh

 

[DiNoahsaur]

How am I supposed to deal with a Ness that has a strong PK fire & Fair game? I was struggling today to get close to this guy today. every advance I made, he either hit me on the ground with PK fire, and then when I went for a short hop float into a Dair or Fair, he countered with a Fair (Ness's Fair has priority). When I tried to come from above, he spammed PK thunder. If I got around his PK fire, he punished my next lag with a backthrow + Fair spam :\ I didn't know what to do. Turnips didn't seem to help much either.


As for Yoshi,
Edit: This is what I do with "Egg-happy" yoshis
Instead of baiting him/her on the ground, I primarily bait yoshi in the air. I've found a nice way to make any Yoshi player uncomfortable, in terms of how to best attack you, is by dropping your float on the egg release (thus avoiding the egg), then dash dancing/QFR in place once or twice to let the yoshi react, then punishing their reaction. I get this sideways L pattern going.

 

[Nabbitnator]

I believe its best to keep a turnip at hand with ness, wait, pick and choose your moments to attack. I wouldnt suggest challenging his fair but using that turnip to punish a whiffed fair. Pk fire is slow so you can float over it to close the distance.

 

[KingJames]

I need some help with Luigi. I feel its peach worst match up and there a bunch of luigi players. 80 -20