Peach cancels landing lag by pressing down+B while holding a turnip

[Meru.]

Vid here!

All credits go to @san. for discovering this with Link's bombs!

Peach can cancel landing lag of her aerials and air dodge by pressing Down + B while holding a turnip. In Smash 4, you will throw your item if you press down + B. Thus, Peach can cancel her landing lag with a turnip throw.

So far, aerials and air dodges are the only things she can cancel. She cannot cancel grounded nor aerial Peach Bomber, Toad or Parasol with Down B. She can only cancel if she holds a turnip. It does not require any timing and is extremely easy to pull off.

PLEASE LET THIS BE INTENTIONAL!!!

Edit: lol. Just discovered that Kie had posted this on twitter about a week ago. Oh well better late than never right!!

 

[Alacion]

Hope Kie continues to play Peach

 

[Carrill]

I wonder if Peach could land a Dair, cancel with Down+B right before the final hit, and then land an Fair for the kill at high percents. If it's viable, maybe it could help Peach get her kills easier?

 

[DrakeRowan]

I can cancel AirDodge lag, but noob question, but how would you go about cancelling Aerial lag without throwing the turnip?

 

[Camalange]

Cool! Does this work with Diddy Kong too for example, who also pulls an item using DownB?

 

[ZeroBlindDragon]

Amazing discovery. <3

I am certain we can do wonders by combining this technique with Light Vegetable.

@Illmatic. : This is what you're looking for!

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Oh thank **** for that.

I bet this is an oversight - using Down + B (both in the air and on the ground) in Brawl causes you normal throw the Turnip in the direction you're facing (provided you are holding a Turnip that is). I assume the same is true for Link/Toon Link in Brawl(?).

My guess is that the developers brought over the same mechanic that tells the game to force you to throw the Turnip, rather than pull one up, if you're holding a Turnip and press Down + B but for some reason this particular command overrides whatever landing lag you have because the inputs are telling the game to throw the Turnip (as a ground throw since you've changed from being in the air to being on the ground) as you're trying to spawn another one but you're already holding one...that's my theory anyway.

Whatever - this is very good news indeed, especially for Peach who can use her aerials even if she's holding an item thanks to Float. Not only does this partially alleviate the problem of the new landing lag from Fair, it also gives us a great follow up tool if we Fair on shield.

@ M Meru. have you tried testing Floating Fair + Instant Heavy Vegetable Throw on a shield?
Something else that might be worth looking into is whether or not this trick cancels hitstun...

I can cancel AirDodge lag, but noob question, but how would you go about cancelling Aerial lag without throwing the turnip?

If this works the same way that the Bomb trick does for Link, I don't think you can. You'll have to Float the aerial and drop the Float as Yaaay demonstrates in his vid.

Cool! Does this work with Diddy Kong too for example, who also pulls an item using DownB?

Doesn't Diddy attempt to throw out another Banana if you input Down + B regardless if there's a Banana out like in Brawl? If that's the case then this won't work for Diddy.

 

[Camalange]

Doesn't Diddy attempt to throw out another Banana if you input Down + B regardless if there's a Banana out like in Brawl? If that's the case then this won't work for Diddy.

True, unless they changed it now that he can only pull one banana at a time. I haven't looked into Sm4sh Diddy yet.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Why is it that I start to discovery how good Peach is and gets better as a character with every few days towards this games release?

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Something that's just occurred to me following on from @ DrakeRowan 's question - it might be possible to cancel non-Floating aerials by Z (or L in this case) dropping the Turnip and then recatching it with an aerial (I used this a lot in Brawl if I wanted to SH an aerial but keep the Turnip for later).

Maybe this works in Smash 4? I tried it with Link and he performs his Zair whilst dropping a Bomb but since Peach doesn't have a Zair maybe it'll work?


This tech is very much a bastardisation of the autocancelling we had in Brawl but at least we have some way of avoiding Fair's new lag. I'm curious as to how this tech will fare as Peach's metagame pans out - people will probably get caught out by the instant Turnip throw in the beginning but as things develop we might see people figure out ways to punish Peach after the Turnip throw.

Very eager to see this used in tandem with Heavy Vegetable...

 

[~momentai~]

Appreciate the confirmation!

Very eager to see this used in tandem with Heavy Vegetable...

Yes! I wonder...
Fair-> heavy turnip throw->Peach bomber?
Which Peach bomber has the quickest recovery after bouncing off of a shield?

 

[Meru.]

IMPORTANT UPDATE: Peach can also cancel hitstun by throwing the turnip using DownB. Even if shes in hitstun when hit, the hitstun wil magically disappear if she uses Down B. Link can do this too.

Enjoy your Down B glitches now you can because all of this is definitely going to be patched out by the time the Wii U version comes out.

@ Rickerdy-doo-da-day , everything regarding shield cannot be tested because this training mode is awful and computers are ass, unless you have a partner to test it with and I sadly dont... It probably connects hough since Fair has a decent amount of shieldstun. Heavy turnip apparently has a lot of shieldstun so I imagine you can do some pretty nasty stuff off it.

 

[ZeroBlindDragon]

@ M Meru. : How can you be so sure it's going to be patched?

There's nothing game-breaking about it like Peach's For Glory ban. It's possible Nintendo doesn't care about it either.

I certainly don't see Nintendo correcting Wario's grab release either...

 

[Meru.]

@ M Meru. : How can you be so sure it's going to be patched?

There's nothing game-breaking about it like Peach's For Glory ban. It's possible Nintendo doesn't care about it either.

Her being able to cancel landing lag is fine and I think Nintendo might have overseen or let this slip. However, being able to cancel hitstun... it's kind of hard to oversee something like that. Even if that might not be exactly game-breaking either, it's still a pretty stupid bug which is likely to be fixed when the console version comes out. And if they'll fix her being able to cancel hitstun, they'll probably also fix the Down B landing lag cancel trick now they're at it.

I certainly don't see Nintendo correcting Wario's grab release either...

lol that's still in? Well in that case you might have a point. Actually, I genuinely hope you're right and I'm wrong and that Nintendo won't fix anything because I think being able cancel lag with turnip throw is a really strong tool but it's not so strong that it would be broken... With it however, I think she is high tier without any doubt and a contender for top tier. Having a non-staling, strong Fair with incredibly range that's very likely safe on block? Hell yes!

 

[thelastreplicant]

This is such a great find! I really can't wait until Friday so that I can play around with this myself.

So glad that its looking more and more likely that Peach will be really good in this game!

 

[ffdgh]

Why can't I hold all these buffs...

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

IMPORTANT UPDATE: Peach can also cancel hitstun by throwing the turnip using DownB. Even if shes in hitstun when hit, the hitstun wil magically disappear if she uses Down B. Link can do this too.

Enjoy your Down B glitches now you can because all of this is definitely going to be patched out by the time the Wii U version comes out.

@ Rickerdy-doo-da-day , everything regarding shield cannot be tested because this training mode is awful and computers are ***, unless you have a partner to test it with and I sadly dont... It probably connects hough since Fair has a decent amount of shieldstun. Heavy turnip apparently has a lot of shieldstun so I imagine you can do some pretty nasty stuff off it.

Bahahaha thank you for checking! I had a feeling this might be in after seeing Megaman's Rush Coil and Diddy's Peanut Popper do a similar thing

Do we know if you can do anything to stop knockback after cancelling the hitstun? Special moves and Floating might at least help her move in the opposite direction she's being sent.

Also if you need a partner to test stuff then hit me up once the game is out here and we can do some tests if you fancy - our connection in Brawl Wi Fi was decent (relatively speaking of course...) so the same should hopefully apply here.


I agree that this is probably going to be patched - I think they would let the cancelling landing lag thing slip by but being able to cancel hitstun is pretty silly.

PERHAPS they might let it slide considering 1. you can only normal throw the Turnip in the direction you're facing (which might act as a combo breaker but is fairly situational considering you're not going to have a Turnip in hand all the time) and 2. as far as we know, this doesn't actually help Peach survive longer if she's put in a high knockback situation.


I really, really hope they keep the lag cancelling element in at least - it gives Peach an excellent extra mix up/pressure tool.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Wow, she can cancel hit stun with it too? That is ridiculous HUGE for her.

I don't think this game is going to be patched, these aren't just easy things to patch, and it isn't breaking enough for them to care. I think they'll patch freezing glitches and disturbances like that, but they aren't gonna be patching this game every week for every little thing we find.

I'm not so sure the aerial lag thing is that great. Isn't the animation time for throwing a turnip down longer than some of her aerials recovery time? Seems like somoone can punish her harder for throwing the turnip down than if you just lived with the lag.

wait unless you are saying you press down b and it doesn't do the turnip throw animation at all?

 

[ZeroBlindDragon]

I agree with @ EdreesesPieces . This would require some heavy modifications in the game engine. It's not as simple as creating a condition stating "If Peach uses Vegetable in the start of a match, don't ban her." Plus, modifying online features is easy. And yet, this patch took a full week to prepare. It's possible they'd need to remake the entire game engine from scratch if this programming overlook is a fondamental part of the game's physics...

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Wow, she can cancel hit stun with it too? That is ridiculous HUGE for her.

I don't think this game is going to be patched, these aren't just easy things to patch, and it isn't breaking enough for them to care. I think they'll patch freezing glitches and disturbances like that, but they aren't gonna be patching this game every week for every little thing we find.

I'm not so sure the aerial lag thing is that great. Isn't the animation time for throwing a turnip down longer than some of her aerials recovery time? Seems like somoone can punish her harder for throwing the turnip down than if you just lived with the lag.

wait unless you are saying you press down b and it doesn't do the turnip throw animation at all?

With all her aerials bar Fair then yes it'd probably be better not to use this unless you're wanting to follow up for shield pressure for example (Floating Dair -> falling Nair -> Turnip throw might be a possibility).

Assuming Fair's landing lag is the same as it is in Brawl, it'd be better to throw a Turnip (Turnip active on Frame 8) than suffer the Fair lag penalty (22 frames). Combined with the albeit very small shield stun in this game, the Turnip could probably connect before your opponent manages to, say, shield grab you.

Of course if your opponent is very good, they might shield the Fair and then perfect shield the Turnip if they expect it (Turnip throw takes 26 frames assuming it's the same as Brawl)...

 

[EdreesesPieces]

With all her aerials bar Fair then yes it'd probably be better not to use this unless you're wanting to follow up for shield pressure for example (Floating Dair -> falling Nair -> Turnip throw might be a possibility).

Assuming Fair's landing lag is the same as it is in Brawl, it'd be better to throw a Turnip (Turnip active on Frame 8) than suffer the Fair lag penalty (22 frames). Combined with the albeit very small shield stun in this game, the Turnip could probably connect before your opponent manages to, say, shield grab you.

Of course if your opponent is very good, they might shield the Fair and then perfect shield the Turnip if they expect it (Turnip throw takes 26 frames assuming it's the same as Brawl)...

OH. I didnt realize pressing down b throws the turnip forward. I thought it threw it down. Huge difference there. Its wayyyy useful since throwing it forward is safe and you won't be punished for it since its an attack the way you would if you throw a turnip down.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Yea it throws it forward but ONLY forward (you can't input any directional change) - try it out in Brawl! Or using demo Smash 4 Link. Or just wait a few more days until the game releases...

 

[Chiroz]

Wow, she can cancel hit stun with it too? That is ridiculous HUGE for her.

I don't think this game is going to be patched, these aren't just easy things to patch, and it isn't breaking enough for them to care. I think they'll patch freezing glitches and disturbances like that, but they aren't gonna be patching this game every week for every little thing we find.

Actually from my tests it is more severe than what it seems. You can cancel hitstun of any move that isn't electric or paralytic by just throwing a turnip/bomb. Literally any hit that isn't electric or paralytic you can cancel out of and you can even Up-B instantly.



It isn't as hard as you guys are making it out to be. There's only a very specific clause why it's happening. The engine doesn't have to be "changed completely". It's happening specifically by abilities which spawn items on your hand while you're already holding an item. The command seems to go through no matter what your current hit or lag state is. Even if they didn't know why it was happening or how exactly it's happening, they could make an specific code to stop this for happening in like 10 minutes since they know exactly when it happens and on which part of the code (Peach's, Link's and Toon Link's down-B's if item held clause).

I actually do expect this to be patched by the time it hits Wii U shelves. Bowser's fire cancel and Koopa Claw infinite jumps were patched in later versions of Melee and that was with no internet to speak of to patch previously sold versions and no one actually "working on the game post release". This time the whole team is still working on the Wii U game and we now have internet for patching already sold versions.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

I agree with @ EdreesesPieces . This would require some heavy modifications in the game engine. It's not as simple as creating a condition stating "If Peach uses Vegetable in the start of a match, don't ban her." Plus, modifying online features is easy. And yet, this patch took a full week to prepare. It's possible they'd need to remake the entire game engine from scratch if this programming overlook is a fondamental part of the game's physics...

I think you underestimate how frequently bugs in a similar vein as these are introduced and fixed in PM development. Assuming this would be left in "because it's too hard to fix" is wishful thinking at best for absurdly buggy Peach tech.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

What games has Nintendo sent regular patches out for gameplay updates?

is it possible for me to keep wifi off and never update my version?

 

[DrakeRowan]

Am I the only Peach hoping this gets patched? I'll be abusing it, of course; but I'd also would like to see things patched as it shows Nintendo actually cares about the game down the line.

What games has Nintendo sent regular patches out for gameplay updates?

Mario Kart 8 I presume. (Though it was a content update, rather than a gameplay update IIRC)

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Are there are any bugs in Mario Kart 8 that they failed to patch? That's the key question here .

Also: Why didn't Nintendo patch float canceling out of Peach in Melee when they took flame cancelling out?

 

[ZeroBlindDragon]

Nintendo never created a patch to remove "Fire Hopping" in Mario Kart 8. It was an exploit. I don't think Nintendo creates patches to fix exploits like what we're witnessing now with Peach.

They only made patches for game-breaking glitches like Peach's For Glory ban and Pokemon X/Y's Lumiose City Save crash.

 

[Chiroz]

Are there are any bugs in Mario Kart 8 that they failed to patch? That's the key question here .

Also: Why didn't Nintendo patch float canceling out of Peach in Melee when they took flame cancelling out?

They also didn't patch laser cancel or needle cancel. I don't know why they ONLY patched Bowser's bugs, it was extremely weird, but that was the reason you couldn't play the v1.02 forward as Bowser.

Also yes, they have failed to patch some of MK8's known minor bugs, but they have patched many of the major ones.



If you never connect online your game won't patch, ever.

But we still don't know how this will affect local play (for 3DS). Are you foced to download your friends current version before playing local with him? Are you able to not update but the games desynch if something like this happens? We have no idea what will happen in local play.

Also you would have to never play online in order to stop your game from patching.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Nintendo never created a patch to remove "Fire Hopping" in Mario Kart 8. It was an exploit. I don't think Nintendo creates patches to fix exploits like what we're witnessing now with Peach.

They only made patches for game-breaking glitches like Peach's For Glory ban and Pokemon X/Y's Lumiose City Save crash.

Fire hopping in MK8 is no more exploitative than Snaking was in many MK games before it, namely DS. Furthermore, Fire Hopping is a technique available to all players, has no immediate proof of being an unintended exploit, and its sudden removal would cause serious upsets with Time Trial records.

 

[ZeroBlindDragon]

@ Chiroz : You brought up an extremely valid point. What happens to local multiplayer if Nintendo makes a patch covering offline features and two people do not have the same version? This could be quite troublesome...

And it appears Nintendo is a little discriminating when it views which exploits should be fixed and which aren't.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

@ Chiroz : You brought up an extremely valid point. What happens to local multiplayer if Nintendo makes a patch covering offline features and two people do not have the same version? This could be quite troublesome...

Are we seriously contemplating the possibility of mismatched game updates with wireless access points everywhere? If you're meeting to play someone through local wireless multiplayer, it's highly unlikely they would have no internet access with which to get their game up to date. I would consider it far from "quite troublesome" to "extreme Murphy's Law" if that actually winds up happening to anyone.

 

[Chiroz]

Are we seriously contemplating the possibility of mismatched game updates with wireless access points everywhere? If you're meeting to play someone through local wireless multiplayer, it's highly unlikely they would have no internet access with which to get their game up to date. I would consider it far from "quite troublesome" to "extreme Murphy's Law" if that actually winds up happening to anyone.

I think it's more the fact of: "What happens if I purposely don't update my game and try and play against someone who has updated their game", which is what Edreeses was suggesting.

 

[ZeroBlindDragon]

@ Chiroz : This is exactly what I meant, too. @ RyokoYaksa appears to have misunderstood me.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

@ Chiroz : This is exactly what I meant, too. @ RyokoYaksa appears to have misunderstood me.

I understood what you said at face value. What is "quite troublesome" about someone purposefully not keeping their game up to date and thus being exempt from online play and tourney play, being unable to play locally with those who have? If it gets patched out, enjoy it while it lasts and move on.

 

[Carrill]

Weren't they aware of wavedashing before Melee released and yet neglected to fix it? Whether this gets patched or not depends on Nintendo actually seeing it as a big enough concern to be worth spending the money on it.

And as far as it being a technique not everyone has access to, it's a 51 character fighting game. They already know there's no possible way for every character to have the same options. So Peach having a technique the other characters can't use isn't a big deal. I see it being a useful technique but definitely not anything too broken.

EDIT: Then again... the ability to completely nullify something like Little Mac's KO Punch might be pretty devastating...

 

[Chiroz]

I don't get why you would purposely keep your game out of date if you won't be able to play online and won't know how to control your character at tournies. Also anyone who is remotely competitive at the game will realize instantly that your game isn't patched as soon as you use the exploit and will call you out on it.

Is destroying your casual friends that rewarding?

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Weren't they aware of wavedashing before Melee released and yet neglected to fix it? Whether this gets patched or not depends on Nintendo actually seeing it as a big enough concern to be worth spending the money on it.

And as far as it being a technique not everyone has access to, it's a 51 character fighting game. They already know there's no possible way for every character to have the same options. So Peach having a technique the other characters can't use isn't a big deal. I see it being a useful technique but definitely not anything too broken.

The thing about wavedashing is that it's not a clearly defined glitch, but a natural extension of the game's physics. You have traction that causes characters to slide on the groun. You have directional air dodges with set momentum. You combine the two, a wavedash happens.

Nintendo did patch some things in Melee, which is why there are 4 different disc versions of the game. WD is common to all of them. As a tech that's available to everyone that didn't cause "undesirable" or otherwise obviously broken game behavior, it wasn't worth fixing as that one change alone would have quite majorly changed how the game is played, particularly at high levels. That would be beyond the scope of what a reprinted disc update should affect, especially when you can't control the preexisting copies of the game with the tech still in as it was.

As for this tech in question, I would say it's passable if it only affected landing lag. Being able to cancel hitstun with it though puts it well past the line of "obvious glitch."

 

[Carrill]

@ RyokoYaksa

I wish it only affected landing lag. I don't like the idea of combo-breaking specials at all. If my opponent gets me in a legit combo, they should definitely be able to execute the entire thing.

But honestly, I'm not entirely sure if they'll patch it. The reason they fixed the Peach ban glitch was because large numbers of people complained about it. It was an issue that affected a huge amount of their audience. Will the same amount of people complain about this exploit? Casual players will likely never be aware of it. Competitive players will likely embrace it as an advanced technique. Even if a fraction of the competitive community hates it, Nintendo bother to do something about it? That would hardly be the majority of their audience. They wouldn't have the obligation to patch it.

 

[ZeroBlindDragon]

@ Carrill : I completely and wholeheartedly agree with your logic.