Path of Radiance: Ike Guide and Strategy Discussion

[HFlash]

How safe is an Ike that primarily uses nair/fair in the neutral (with optimal spacing)? Feels like unless it's PS, there isn't too much an enemy can do. Seems like a pretty optimal risk/reward ratio. How true is this statement?

Thanks in advanced

 

[Arrei]

Well, it certainly isn't foolproof - since Nair and Fair have, iirc, 11 frames of startup, and both start above Ike, if Ike gets predictable other characters with quick hitboxes or long-reaching hitboxes that also start above them can charge in and challenge him with their own aerials. So Ike still needs to mix it up.

 

[Mario766]

Ike's safer when he's able to space out F-Air/B-Air and uses optimal jab 1/2 along with d-tilt.

N-Air isn't as safe as most of his other aerials due to the new shield lock mechanics.

 

[ReroRero]

So Nair is less safe in the new patch ? :/

 

[Mario766]

It's about the same really, just not as good as F-Air/B-Air.

 

[ReroRero]

If I remind it correctly, Fair and Bair have just a two frames disadvantage against OoS options right ? And Uair ?

 

[san.]

Ike's aerials were never good at triggering the shield lock outside of bair most of the time. Everything should be safer, but not as much as you think. You still need to space around shield grabs and jabs/UpB OoS.

Shield lock btw consists of the extra frames you're stuck in shield (but can grab/jump) if you barely missed a power shield, if you shielded an attack 4-11 frames from the moment you pressed shield.
In older patches, these frames stayed with you after shield stun, but now they overlap with shield stun often times not even being a factor.

 

[TL?]

A few questions:

So what is the proper followup to nair at very low %s? (0-20ish). I'm talking about before it combos into fair. I usually go for grab/dash grab but some higher level opponents manage to jump out before the grab.

What are the optimal/proper punishes when you shield a ledge get up attack? Usually I just go with shield drop jab or ftilt.

Does the new shield frames make it a good idea to ever keep attacking after the opponent blocks our nair or fair? Or is the safety of these move still largely based on spacing? I'm talking about if it's a good idea to nair/fair into jab/dtilt based on frame advantage or can these only work when we're too far away to be shield grabbed? If we shouldn't continue attacking then what should we do when our aerials are blocked?

 

[Arrei]

Nair into grab hasn't failed me yet, but sometimes an opponent is caught by the tip and it doesn't quite look like I can reach them in time, so I go for Ftilt instead.

Assuming you can't grab combo them anymore, strongest punish on ledge get up attack is Dsmash, capable of killing the earliest. (Ever so slightly stronger than Bair's knockback) Second strongest is Utilt, dealing the same damage but not killing until a good chunk of damage later - but is also 2 frames quicker to come out and locks you in place for much less time in the event that you miss. Ftilt is the least optimal, dealing less damage than the other two and having the same startup as Dsmash but killing around the same time as Utilt.

There may be small differences on some characters' get up attack endlag, though, I'm not entirely certain on that. For most characters Dsmash and Ftilt's 13-frame startup is fast enough to get them.

I'm not sure I fully understand the shield changes, but Ike's Nair and Fair aren't safe enough for him to attack with abandon, so yes, spacing is still crucial. Ike still has a disadvantage on block for those, if I understand the changes right, so shield grabs will ruin his day. But with spacing, he can cover his landing with jab since he reaches farther than a majority of the cast. Against those that can challenge him, though, like other high reach characters or those with tether grabs, it'll probably be a better idea to go into evasive maneuvers instead, or avoid Fairing their shields to begin with. In an Ike ditto Ike can respond to blocking his opponent's Fair by jabbing, but if he tries to grab after a spaced Fair he'll get hit by the opponent's jab instead and going for a slower move could get him blocked and put on the disadvantaged side instead.

 

[Mario766]

N-Air works well into Jab on fast fallers, N-Air on medium fallers and below that you'll have to mix-up. Most of the time at 0 you can get a full jab combo for 20 percent, or N-Air -> D-Tilt -> F-Air/B-Air for 29-30. N-Air also combos into up-tilt but you have to be very quick on the timing, for 23 percent.

 

[Arrei]

Is Nair -> Dtilt really a good option? Even the level 1 waiting room CPUs can sometimes hop away from it.

 

[Mario766]

Depends on the MU.

Sheik, ZSS and Fox for examples get true comboed by it, and if you can work on the buffer turnaround, b-Air works after for a true combo doing 31 percent.

 

[san.]

Sometimes you still may want to jab. The fastfallers will usually be forced to tech, leaving you enough time to follow up decently some of the time.

 

[Mario766]

Jab works a lot better than d-tilt, esp if you aren't used to the timing. N-Air Jab is still 20 percent that is guaranteed and it's like getting a grab combo but now you're in a better position frame wise because you aren't stuck in the air.

 

[chicken2121]

any tip for ike dealing with projectiles? ive been having trouble against characters like robin and samus and i have no idea how to approach them

 

[Arrei]

Practice anticipating when an opponent will likely fire a projectile at you. Stay aware of when you're most open to attack, such as when approaching or landing, and be ready to shield at those times. To facilitate this, do not make wasted movements. Don't throw out attacks at random or burn your air jump without cause as you need to be able to bring up your shield quickly or use your double jump to avoid something.

 

[HFlash]

When dealing with projectile users, learning to perfect shield is absolutely essential. It's the only real way to block those moves while being able to get closer. That or dodging the moves altogether, but I wouldn't say Ike has the best air speed in the game to do so (18-20th in game isn't bad, but not quite close enough to Yoshi-like air speed to do so).

 

[Arrei]

Say... does Utilt's hitbox starting so low have a particularly easy time striking people through slightly weakened shields, or are people just dropping their guard against my Utilt an awful lot? I feel like I've secured more kills than is normal by using Utilt against a clearly active shield that hasn't even shrunk that much.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Okay, I've got a question. I've been told I jump too much sometimes. But I feel adding shorthop fastfalls to my game has helped greatly. When should you do fastfalls and when should you just stay on the ground?

 

[Oblivion129]

Okay, I've got a question. I've been told I jump too much sometimes. But I feel adding shorthop fastfalls to my game has helped greatly. When should you do fastfalls and when should you just stay on the ground?

Short hopping is great. Empty hops, SH Nairs, SH landing Bair, re-treating aerials, etc. But if you've been told you jump too much, it's probably because you use jumps more than your other options.

On the ground you can jab, Dtilt, Dash grab, Pivot grab, etc. By jumping a lot, you're limiting your options and being more predictable. Not to mention that when you jump, you're going to have to land eventually, which your opponent can punish.

Basically mix up your approaches. Even though shorthop fastfalls helped your game, each match is different and may need more or less jumping.

 

[Poopybutthole]

Should I work on getting into the habit of using Ike's first or second jab instead of doing the full three hit combo? It seems like he has some combos (not sure if guaranteed) from the first two hit of jabs into grab. In general how good of a move is jab, I tend to find myself using it a lot.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Should I work on getting into the habit of using Ike's first or second jab instead of doing the full three hit combo? It seems like he has some combos (not sure if guaranteed) from the first two hit of jabs into grab. In general how good of a move is jab, I tend to find myself using it a lot.

Well, you definitely don't want to overcommit to Jab 3 if it's blocked or whiffed. That's a pure punish right there. So try to hitconfirm Jab 1 or 2 before you mash right into 3. Ike's jab isn't fast enough to "machine gun" into, so you won't get the anti-dashgrab benefits that Mario, Fox, and Captain Falcon reap.

 

[Poopybutthole]

Well, you definitely don't want to overcommit to Jab 3 if it's blocked or whiffed. That's a pure punish right there. So try to hitconfirm Jab 1 or 2 before you mash right into 3. Ike's jab isn't fast enough to "machine gun" into, so you won't get the anti-dashgrab benefits that Mario, Fox, and Captain Falcon reap.

Yup I've noticed myself I'm starting to get punished for using it to often because my enemy is predicting it a lot so it's to the point where I need to mix it up and just make sure I got the hit confirm. How useful would you say is his first two hits of jab into like grab or like Down Tilt or something? Is that something Ike players use a lot or is it kind of a mix-up thing as well because I know some Mario players who tend to do that but it's definitely not true.

 

[Oblivion129]

Aside from what Rango said, throwing out Jab1/Jab2 is safer so you can use it to see what your opponent's reaction to the jab is. If they normally shield, you can go in for a grab. If they normally mash A, you can bait out an attack and punish with Dtilt. If you can get a hard enough read you can even Fsmash, like if they're stuck in a whiffed rapid-jab animation or if they threw out a counter (not common, just an example).

If you Jab1-Jab2 to grab often, you'll condition your opponent to jump away or something instead of shielding, so you can go ahead and do Jab3 or try to read them.

 

[Poopybutthole]

Aside from what Rango said, throwing out Jab1/Jab2 is safer so you can use it to see what your opponent's reaction to the jab is. If they normally shield, you can go in for a grab. If they normally mash A, you can bait out an attack and punish with Dtilt. If you can get a hard enough read you can even Fsmash, like if they're stuck in a whiffed rapid-jab animation or if they threw out a counter (not common, just an example).

If you Jab1-Jab2 to grab often, you'll condition your opponent to jump away or something instead of shielding, so you can go ahead and do Jab3 or try to read them.

Thank you! I really do need to work more on the mind games aspect of this game so basic conditioning like this may help me with that there. I'm going to try this at some point when I play again.

 

[Poopybutthole]

Apologies for double but just a few more questions I had.

What's the uses of Ike's smashes attacks and when should I use them. I know Up Smash is a great ledge option and anti air but his FSmash and DSmash I'm just kind of convinced are underwhelming, almost never use them.

In addition, what are the advantages of RAR Nair over just a normal Nair and is it outright just better to use RAR or whatsoever all the time? Is Dair a move I should even used in optimal play or is it just situational?

 

[LordShade67]

Ike's Smashes in general should be used sparingly, if at all. It's easy to forget Ike even has a DSmash for this reason, XD.

RAR NAir is rarely used, but the back hit can combo into BAir. 9 times out of 10, if you approach with RAR, you usually wanna BAir(Properly spaced, obviously).

DAir has a small niche in DThrow > Footstool setups. Other than that, his other aerials are almost always better.

 

[Poopybutthole]

Ike's Smashes in general should be used sparingly, if at all. It's easy to forget Ike even has a DSmash for this reason, XD.

RAR NAir is rarely used, but the back hit can combo into BAir. 9 times out of 10, if you approach with RAR, you usually wanna BAir(Properly spaced, obviously).

DAir has a small niche in DThrow > Footstool setups. Other than that, his other aerials are almost always better.

Yeah like with every heavy, I avoid using smash attacks just because of how risky they are compared to tilts that are much faster and usually can kill but just at higher percents but overall safer so wasn't sure if I should try implementing smashes to my gameplay.

I've read quite a bit about RAR Nairs so yeah I'm not sure how good it is, seems like possibly could be a good cross up on shields. Whenever I do RAR Bair it seems to miss and it's on like tall characters as well but it could just be bad spacing by me. I'm going to practice more RAR Bairs.

I'm going to see about the footstool combos but I'm not sure how legit they are. I know Rango said he's not a fan of them in Skype as well.

 

[Arrei]

For smashes, Fsmash is only to be used for the hardest of reads and baits, especially if used with a pivot if you're anticipating a dash attack or dash grab to position an enemy in the right spot. It also has niche use for thwarting enemies that like to try and jump over you to take a swing at your back if they get predictable - I've fallen for it a handful of times.

Dsmash has been found to be Ike's second strongest grounded horizontal kill tool, with slightly stronger knockback than Bair by a percent or so. But with 13 frames of startup, less reach than Ftilt, and being disgustingly punishable on block or whiff, it's only a good idea to pull out when you have a sure punish (most frequently on a blocked getup attack) or on a hard read if you're feeling gutsy - it's otherwise too slow to even punish a roll. It is, at least, easier to find a use for than Fsmash, because that one's so slow it can't punish anything.

 

[Poopybutthole]

For smashes, Fsmash is only to be used for the hardest of reads and baits, especially if used with a pivot if you're anticipating a dash attack or dash grab to position an enemy in the right spot. It also has niche use for thwarting enemies that like to try and jump over you to take a swing at your back if they get predictable - I've fallen for it a handful of times.

Dsmash has been found to be Ike's second strongest grounded horizontal kill tool, with slightly stronger knockback than Bair by a percent or so. But with 13 frames of startup, less reach than Ftilt, and being disgustingly punishable on block or whiff, it's only a good idea to pull out when you have a sure punish (most frequently on a blocked getup attack) or on a hard read if you're feeling gutsy - it's otherwise too slow to even punish a roll.

Hmm I'll see about trying it, I only really done Pivot Grabs / F-Tilts in my gameplay. Considering trying these perfect pivot sheninigans as well when I start to attend more offline tournaments. On the other hand, his smash attacks are really slow for the most part but I'd think it's interesting to test out a Forward Smash as a mix up if they're trying to approach from behind. Down Smash the only use I really only found for it was ledge trump to Down Smash once.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Ledge trump someone. Then send them back offstage. If they try to buffer and roll, you just got a free USmash.

 

[Poopybutthole]

Ledge trump someone. Then send them back offstage. If they try to buffer and roll, you just got a free USmash.

Yea I've been getting a lot of ledge trumps in my gameplay lately to the point where I get it like with perfect consistency but sometimes I react to slow with a follow up and I need to work on that and conditioning on the ledge

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

I wish I could do that. I keep missing the Bair because I hit too late.

 

[Poopybutthole]

I wish I could do that. I keep missing the Bair because I hit too late.

Timing seems strict, seems harder especially on wifi. Luckily I'm getting some offline practice within the next few weeks.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Just wanted to bring this up because I remember seeing Nidtendofreak posting about Aether not connecting correctly against me in my MLG set against Ryo.

After watching the videos, I realized what he was talking about, and I figured I should bring it to your attention: Wario has a glitch where after he jumps off of his Forward-B by pressing the Special button (instead of Jump), he is considered permanently grounded, so air-only hitboxes cannot hit him and ground-only hitboxes can always hit him. Aether's descent has a ground-only hitbox that sends people up at a 70-degree angle, and that's why it never slammed me downward.

 

[-RedX-]

Just wanted to bring this up because I remember seeing Nidtendofreak posting about Aether not connecting correctly against me in my MLG set against Ryo.

After watching the videos, I realized what he was talking about, and I figured I should bring it to your attention: Wario has a glitch where after he jumps off of his Forward-B by pressing the Special button (instead of Jump), he is considered permanently grounded, so air-only hitboxes cannot hit him and ground-only hitboxes can always hit him. Aether's descent has a ground-only hitbox that sends people up at a 70-degree angle, and that's why it never slammed me downward.

That's pretty cool for Wario.
So the start of Aether's descent, which is the spike, doesn't spike a "grounded Wario" in the air?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

That's pretty cool for Wario.
So the start of Aether's descent, which is the spike, doesn't spike a "grounded Wario" in the air?

That's right, yeah.

 

[Arrei]

Well, that's real interesting. I guess that explains how that Wario got spiked by an edgeguard Eruption in that old Vine!


Huh. Talk about coincidences. First opponent for today's FG session was a Wario, on whom I landed several Aethers after jumping from his motorcycle, all of which failed to spike him. I would have been massively confused if not for this finding.

 

[san.]

Yeah, if you notice Wario is glitched, better get that eruption out. Even an uncharged one may be a pretty powerful spike.

 

[Mr. ShinyUmbreon]

I've only picked up Ike recently, but does d-tilt have combo potential? I noticed while labbing that jab1 sets up into d-tilt. I know it can combo into f-air at some percents, but does it combo into anything else?