Official Patch 4.0.0 Discussion Thread

[shrooby]

The Hero is finally here, and with him comes balance changes! Here is the main thread.



We will hand out large infractions and/or temporary bans to those who stifle this process of patch exploration
Some examples include
1. Posting false changes, good intentions or not.
2. Asking if anything has changed when the patch notes are there for you to read.
3. Immature behavior and complaining over the patch changes.

When checking changes, remember that Ultimate has many different damage multipliers.

• Percent values taken from proper matches (non-training mode) have scaling adjustments based on it's current freshness; a 1% difference seen in a match may not be a real patch change and should be double checked before being posted.
• For aerials remember that aerials performed during a short hop have a x0.85 damage multiplier.
• Moves deal more damage (x1.2) in 1v1s matches than in matches with more than two players. This multiplier also applies to Training Mode.

~~~~~~~~~

What Nintendo's official patch notes terms mean:

Let's recap Nintendo's official patch notes terminology based on what we've seen in the past. A glossary always helps.

• "attack speed" refers to startup.
• "power" or "attack power" refers to damage. In the last two patches they have just said "power"
• "Launch distance" refers to knockback.
  • "Undamaged launch distance" refers very specifically to base knockback
• "Reduced Vulnerability" refers to reduced endlag.
  • Reduced Vulnerability when Landing" refers to reduced landing lag
• "Shortened landing time" is referring to a reduction in how much of the animation forces that move's landing state. In other words, it's a more lenient autocancel window
• "Hitstun time" refers to hitlag.
  • "Hitstun Shuffle Distance" refers to a move's SDI multiplier.
• "Super armor" refers to armor, but they do not specify whether it is damage or knockback based armor.
• "invincibility" refers to invulnerability frames. As far as what we call invincibility, I don't know what term they would use.
• "Hit detection" refers to active hit frames of an attack.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Patch notes

Here's a fuller list of Nintendo's terminology:

Let's recap Nintendo's official patch notes terminology based on what we've seen in the past. A glossary always helps.

• "attack speed" refers to startup.
• "power" or "attack power" refers to damage. In the last two patches they have just said "power"
• "Launch distance" refers to knockback.
  • "Undamaged launch distance" refers very specifically to base knockback
• "Reduced Vulnerability" refers to reduced endlag.
  • Reduced Vulnerability when Landing" refers to reduced landing lag
• "Shortened landing time" is referring to a reduction in how much of the animation forces that move's landing state. In other words, it's a more lenient autocancel window
• "Hitstun time" refers to hitlag.
  • "Hitstun Shuffle Distance" refers to a move's SDI multiplier.
• "Super armor" refers to armor, but they do not specify whether it is damage or knockback based armor.
• "invincibility" refers to invulnerability frames. As far as what we call invincibility, I don't know what term they would use.
• "Hit detection" refers to active hit frames of an attack.

Some terms mean what you think they mean, such as "launch angle" "counter detection" or "attack range".

 

[Gunla]

Changes found for:

• Mario, Donkey Kong, Link, Samus, Dark Samus, Yoshi, Fox, Peach, Daisy, Bowser, Sheik, Young Link, Mewtwo, Mr. Game & Watch, Pit, Dark Pit, Zero Suit Samus, Snake, Pokemon Trainer, Ivysaur, Charizard, Lucas, Sonic, Olimar, R.O.B., Toon Link, Villager, Rosalina & Luma, Greninja, Little Mac, Mii Brawler, Mii Swordfighter, Mii Gunner, PAC-MAN, Ryu, Ken, Corrin, Bayonetta, Ridley, Simon, Richter, Isabelle, Piranha Plant, Joker

 

[NotLiquid]

Patch Notes are up.
https://en-americas-support.nintendo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/47012

Stall-and-fall attacks have been changed to immediately send characters downward if used out of hitstun (affects G&W, Sonic, Toon Link, Bowser, Corrin, Sheik, Bayonetta, Belmonts, Greninja, and ZSS)
Several attacks that fail to autolink into the full hit now send at less knockback (e.g. Peach's Parasol)
Ivysaur got hit... kinda badly (aerial vine whip nerfed, DAir nerfed)
Charizard got buffs
Pits got buffs
Mewtwo got a few buffs, and his tail hurtbox was improved
Olimar got a F-Smash buff (why), oddly his hurtbox/shield was not fixed, so I guess they want to keep Olimar vulnerable.
Ridley got a bunch of buffs
ROB's jab got fixed (rip infinite)
Quite a bit of Isabelle buffs

 

[Arthur97]

Ridley! Good to see him buffed.

Still wish Rebel's Guage had been toned down more.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Mewtwo's Tail hurtboz got reduced, mains must be estatic

 

[Nathan Richardson]

It seems like charizard's side moves got a power and KB increase but it looks like his USmash got nerfed a bit. His nair also has decreased vulnerability which is good.

 

[Zinith]

For my boi, it's like the only time the development team pays any attention to him is when he has a slight advantage selective to him (in this case using Side Smash to dodge) and NEVER the weaknesses...

 

[ZephyrZ]

I'm feeling slightly bitter about Ivy nerfs but they were an inevitability anyway. I'm sure there character will still be quite good, especially since Up Air miraculously didn't seem to get touched.

As a PT main this is fairly bittersweet patch, but as a Charizard loyalist it's kind of exciting to. F-tilt is one of Charizard's safest moves when spaced and is a solid kill move at high percents, especially when rage boosted and near the ledge - buffing that and F-throw is definitely going to improve Zard's ability to kill reliably and increases the thread of his ledge pressure.

Nice to see Flare Blitz reverted to Smash 4 in terms of ledge snaps. I'm going to have to practice that to get the hang of it in this new engine.

It seems like charizard's side moves got a power and KB increase but it looks like his USmash got nerfed a bit. His nair also has decreased vulnerability which is good.

That Up Smash "nerf" seems pretty inconsequential since that move actually connects pretty reliably in Ultimate. Definitely a net buff.

 

[Game7a1]

Patch Notes are up.
https://en-americas-support.nintendo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/47012

Stall-and-fall attacks have been changed to immediately send characters downward if used out of hitstun (affects G&W, Sonic, Toon Link, Bowser, Corrin, Sheik, Bayonetta, Belmonts, Greninja, and ZSS)

Also affects Ridley (tested this to be sure), but it doesn't seem to be listed.

 

[Tri Knight]

Shieldstun shuffle? What be this?

 

[Terotrous]

I've only skimmed it so far, but so far I'm liking what I see, Isabelle, Corrin, and Plant all getting some love.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

After trying out Hero, and yea like a few were predicting his frame data does seem pretty wack. His fair and bair feel as sluggish as Shulks.. But he seems to have pretty good range having a sword and all, and his neutral and side specials seem really good

 

[NinfanNanz]

Not too much in terms of Character changes which is ok. We got a bunch of new modes, and a character. So i didn't expect too much. I glad Nintendo is being nice and slow about these changes. I will say that they might just be waiting to see how to change a character, before rolling it out. Can't wait for next patch!

 

[The_Bookworm]

He got a tail hurtbox decrease, buffed the power of up smash and back throw, and decreased the endlag of down smash. There is also various improvements to Confusion. Definitely a winner in this patch.
These two got some nice buffs. The two big ones is that they decreased the endlag of up tilt and increased the power of down tilt's meteor hitbox. The decreased landing lag of back air helps out too.
Some of Ivysaur's BS got toned down a little bit. It features a slower side B overall, a weaker aerial Vine Whip sweetspot, and decreasing the down air sweetspot. I am sort of surprised that they left it's ridiculous up air untouched, so there is that.
On the other hand, Charizard got some really nice buffs. It features of power buff to his forward smash, forward tilt, and forward throw. However, the biggest ones are that neutral air having decreased landing lag and Flare Blitz grabbing on to the ledge sooner.
A few nice QoL buffs to Lucas. A longer hitbox duration for dash attack, increased range and power to forward tilt, decreased the landing lag of up air, and gave up smash more invincibility. The bigger change is the decreased landing lag of PK Fire. These changes don't really address any of his biggest weaknesses, but it is nice to see hit get recognition. I am a little worried that he will be even more obnoxious online though.
They didn't fix his shield problem, but they buffed Purple Pikmin forward smash instead? Okay then...
As I predicted, the Little Mac jab change was an error in the balancing team's part. Welp for this character.
Mii Swordfighter's Hero Spin connecting better is pretty nice change for the character overall.
Yay Corrin buffs! Made her recovery better and made Pin Jumping a better option overall.
Wow, this character got quite a lot of buffs. More power to up smash, back air, and side special! Increased sweetspot of up air! Increased range to dash attack! Gave the side B jump variation less endlag! Made up B faster as an attack and recovery move! Probably the biggest winner of this patch.
Isabelle also got quite a bit of love in this patch. Her rolls are not as hot garbage as before, her jab seems to have better stun from the looks of things, up smash is now stronger, Fishing Rod (upwards throw) is stronger and has a bigger grab detection, and her Lloid Trap seems to fly faster (from the looks of things?). The Fishing Rod changes seems to be the most significant to me. She still has some very definite issues, but I am glad to see that she is not abandoned by the developers after all.
PPlant got a few QoL buffs. The main two ones is its faster up tilt and faster side B. Its down B being faster helps too. However, these changes doesn't really help out at all in the approaching department (all of its aerials still have poor hitboxes and high landing lag).


I think the biggest winners of the patch are:
(Big Boy Party!)

Also some notable improvements to

 

[The_Bookworm]

This is an image of Mewtwo's tail post-patch:

It now seems to be around halfway between its pre-patch tail hurtbox and its SSB4 tail hurtbox (a bit closer towards the latter than the former fortunately).

This, coupled with the other buffs Mewtwo got, is very nice improvement to the character overall.

 

[Gleam]

Just when I thought all was lost, my gods smiled upon my great purple dragon. I'm not going say anything beyond feeling good, if this puts Ridley back in the game, I want to see it through action, not just words. Still, for a character who was falling really fast it's nice to see.

Joker's patch though is one I think warrants some discussion. I assume it means once Joker is above 50%, he can't use Arsense to reflect projectiles which is going to heavily, I assume, limit the usage of Arsene in these situations.

 

[12Tables]

Found this can we start checking the stuff listed to see truth?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ne...te-version-4-patch-notes-update-1451793?amp=1

 

[Spinosaurus]

Ivysaur's claim to fame is all her kill confirms, huge dair and razor leaf. Squirtle's the star of the show but she was the only one on the team with actual reliable kill setups, and now they're significantly weaker. (if not gone? I'm hearing vine whip is pretty awful now.) I think it's a big blow to the character as a whole and Ivy's role is probably gonna be much more limited now.

Although that Zard nair change might be pretty dang nice for the lizard boi.

Also I wouldn't sleep on the Pit changes. Dsmash killing now might be the exact thing they needed. Reminder it's frame 6 and he can confirm into it.

 

[SapphSabre777]

While a lot of characters got buffs in this patch, really is a dreadful day for anyone that has . His most troublesome matchups in Mewtwo, Ridley, and Zard now even stronger against him, along with a lot more MUs, along with buffs to Isabelle and Plant...it's looking like a big worrying sign for him atm.

EDIT: It's not all doom and gloom right now. Just bitter how others got buffs. Just means the Kirby players have to step up ourselves.

 

[Arthur97]

Ouch. Mac did not deserve the jab change even if it was originally an error.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Joker's patch though is one I think warrants some discussion. I assume it means once Joker is above 50%, he can't use Arsense to reflect projectiles which is going to heavily, I assume, limit the usage of Arsene in these situations.

The change means that projectiles that deal 50% or more damage cannot be reflected by Tetrakarn.

It is change that you may probably never see in competitive play. I would've preferred if they reduce Tetrakarn's ridiculously large hitbox.

While a lot of characters got buffs in this patch, really is a dreadful day for anyone that has . His most troublesome matchups in Mewtwo, Ridley, and Zard now even stronger against him, along with a lot more MUs, along with buffs to Isabelle and Plant...it's looking like a big RIP for Kirby right now. I cannot think of a character that Kirby is better at right now. And worst off, its a pretty big gap between him and everyone else. Wouldn't be surprised to see the Kirby tier pop up again atm.

Little Mac and K. Rool still exists. Piranha Plant didn't really get any of its biggest issues fixed at all, so it probably will not increase by much at all. I am not sure how the Isabelle changes truly affect the character viability, so there is that too. Kirby is still far from the worst character imo.

Still is little surprised that Kirby didn't get any changes in this patch at all.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Joker's patch though is one I think warrants some discussion. I assume it means once Joker is above 50%, he can't use Arsense to reflect projectiles which is going to heavily, I assume, limit the usage of Arsene in these situations.

That's not it, he just can't reflect projectiles that deal that much anymore.

So it's not even a slap in the wrist.

 

[The_Bookworm]

According to in-game move list Hero's Heal command has limited uses, did some quick testing and seems to be limited to 2 uses per stock pic.twitter.com/PLm3e4i7MI

— Ruben (@Ruben_dal) July 31, 2019

Hero isn't going to be healing camping, which is good to hear.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

The Hero does gain MP back when hitting an opponents sheild, which is nice. Also the chance of getting a critical hit with smash attacks is 1/8.. so it wont happen too often.., Accelerate is literally SSB4 Palu lightweight, it does reduce his weight along with making him a whole lot faster.

Also Hatchet Man instantly break shields.

So yeah with him gaining MP on hitting it, and the Hatchet Man, you may not want to be shield-happy vs the Hero.

neutral B specials seem crazy.... Kafrizz is super fast and does like 36 damage

 

[SapphSabre777]

Little Mac and K. Rool still exists. Piranha Plant didn't really get any of its biggest issues fixed at all, so it probably will not increase by much at all. I am not sure how the Isabelle changes truly affect the character viability, so there is that too.

Still is little surprised that Kirby didn't get any changes in this patch at all.

At the very least Mac has ground mobility and ground moves that give him the ability to approach. Heck, at SF8, a Mac nearly broke into Top 32. And K. Rool at least has projectiles that, while aren't the best, allow him some sort of neutral control, along with better callouts to jumps. Kirby has had very little meaningful results that match those of the entire cast, and so many fatal flaws that every character in the game can exploit him with. He got hit by the power creep, and got nothing out of it that was relevant, or too weak to push him forward, like the other characters. I cannot see any character that is better tier-wise than Kirby atm.

 

[NinfanNanz]

That's not it, he just can't reflect projectiles that deal that much anymore.

So it's not even a slap in the wrist.

They did the same thing with pichu. Joker came out (3.0) and then they nerfed pichu (3.1). I think they will deal with him in 4.1 in a balance update.

 

[Gleam]

Sounds like a pretty useless patch for Joker then, unless Joker was being a total jerk with Spirits. Pointless for me but I mean, balance out the whole game, not just the professional setting I say.

 

[KakuCP9]

The biggest thing that sticks out to me is Mii Brawler's 'Reverted falling speed to match version 3.0.0. '. Thing is, whatever fall speed change the dev gave Brawler auto-cancels they didn't have before (nair i believe) and reverting the fall speed might nerf the character for no apparent reason. Also I can't believe they didn't fix Olimar, love him or hate him, he deserves to have a working shield unless some smart-ass on the dev-team thinks him breaking the clanging rules means he doesn't get shield privileges. At least they killed the semi-infinte R.O.B had with his jab.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Ryu and Ken can now autoturn when you buffer out of parries! (sry that it's longer than it needs to be, too lazy to trim it)#ssbu_ken #ssbu_ryu pic.twitter.com/Fwn53LDxzO

— GG | BUANDON (@BUANDON) July 31, 2019

Nice change for the Shotos.

Right now, Locus is bathing in that change and all of those Ridley buffs.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Btw Nairo is streaming Hero online... A critical hit F-Smash can kill light characters at 60% in the middle of the stage. Thankfully its only a 1/8 chance

 

[The_Bookworm]

The biggest thing that sticks out to me is Mii Brawler's 'Reverted falling speed to match version 3.0.0. '. Thing is, whatever fall speed change the dev gave Brawler auto-cancels they didn't have before (nair i believe) and reverting the fall speed might nerf the character for no apparent reason.

It was forward air that autocanceled in a short hop. The change is a small nerf overall to Mii Brawler. The buffs to Flashing Mach Punch (the move's pre-patch state was pretty bad) and Soaring Axe Kick (I have no idea why they buffed this move lol) should help compensate.

 

[meleebrawler]

So, uh, I guess having an actually viable sleep move in the game thanks to Snooze ended up exposing an arbitrary balance issue in the wakeup animations not being consistent in length among characters?

 

[Tri Knight]

His crit smash does ~44 damage. Can kill Roy at about 60% near ledge without crit (22% dmg). So he's got some power it seems. His jab seems pretty good though but couldn't tell for certain. Very sluggish aerials though, like landing lag is pretty bad on F-air and decent on N-air. BUT there is no landing lag on SH Up-air at all. D-tilt may be able to combo into F-air. Fully charged Neutral-B does 37% damage and killed Roy at 45% near ledge. Fully charged side-B killed Roy at 28% at ledge. Up-air combos into itself, registers as true. I'm fond of his edge guarding capabilities.

Couple quick things I've poked around with. Not concrete but more like roundabouts.

My man hits HARD.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Ivysaur's claim to fame is all her kill confirms, huge dair and razor leaf. Squirtle's the star of the show but she was the only one on the team with actual reliable kill setups, and now they're significantly weaker. (if not gone? I'm hearing vine whip is pretty awful now.) I think it's a big blow to the character as a whole and Ivy's role is probably gonna be much more limited now.

Although that Zard nair change might be pretty dang nice for the lizard boi.

Also I wouldn't sleep on the Pit changes. Dsmash killing now might be the exact thing they needed. Reminder it's frame 6 and he can confirm into it.

Ivysaur still has Razor Leaf and a huge dair - the former is just slightly less spammable (but still very spammable) and the latter has a smaller sweetspot (but is still really good for a spike). I'll admit Vine Whip took a serious hit though now that D-throw -> Vine Whip no longer kills.

Honestly Ivysaur may not have a bonkers Vine Whip kill confirm but will still have a very strong mid/long range neutral. Still a very strong character.
Especially now that Charizard has F-throw and F-tilt buffs, I think PT is still going to have a lot of options to kill with. We just won't be killing at 80-ish percent off an Ivy grab anymore.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Ivysaur still has Razor Leaf and a huge dair - the former is just slightly less spammable (but still very spammable) and the latter has a smaller sweetspot (but is still really good for a spike). I'll admit Vine Whip took a serious hit though now that D-throw -> Vine Whip no longer kills.

Honestly Ivysaur may not have a bonkers Vine Whip kill confirm but will still have a very strong mid/long range neutral. Still a very strong character.
Especially now that Charizard has F-throw and F-tilt buffs, I think PT is still going to have a lot of options to kill with. We just won't be killing at 80-ish percent off an Ivy grab anymore.

I'm not really sure Razor Leaf is all that good anymore. The best thing about it was that it confirmed into Vine Whip, take that away and you're left with just a decent projectile. Her neutral's never been particularly good imo and good characters definitely outshine her there, it's just that getting hit by her was incredibly threatening. Dair is still massive but you actually gotta hit the sweetspot now, sourspot is significantly worse.

She'll still have high damage combos, but Squirtle does it already on top of having better neutral imo. On the other hand Zard's a tech chase machine now, and with nair setting those up I think he's filling Ivy's niche now.

 

[PK Gaming]

Joker's Makarakarn nerf is for projectile reflection volleys. I assume the 50% threshold (or somewhere around it) applied to other reflectors as well

 

[ParanoidDrone]

According to in-game move list Hero's Heal command has limited uses, did some quick testing and seems to be limited to 2 uses per stock pic.twitter.com/PLm3e4i7MI

— Ruben (@Ruben_dal) July 31, 2019

Hero isn't going to be healing camping, which is good to hear.

According to the ingame tips, Heal can also return as a down special option when Hero gets a KO.

 

[boysilver400]

Heck, at SF8, a Mac nearly broke into Top 32.

Jesuischoq also got close to top 32 in Albion 4, and he already has more points in phase 2 Orion than he did in phase 1, so he isn’t completely dead.

The fact that he’s gone 2 patches in a row without buffs is concerning, though. Especially considering Mewtwo, who arguably won this patch also was a winner in 3.0, where Kirby actually got a few buffs, even if they weren’t that significant.

 

[KakuCP9]

I'm not really sure Razor Leaf is all that good anymore. The best thing about it was that it confirmed into Vine Whip, take that away and you're left with just a decent projectile. Her neutral's never been particularly good imo and good characters definitely outshine her there, it's just that getting hit by her was incredibly threatening. Dair is still massive but you actually gotta hit the sweetspot now, sourspot is significantly worse.

She'll still have high damage combos, but Squirtle does it already on top of having better neutral imo. On the other hand Zard's a tech chase machine now, and with nair setting those up I think he's filling Ivy's niche now.

Given that Ivy still other ways to confirm into Vine whip, the loss of the Razor leaf confirm isn't that big a deal and even then she can still use it catch poor decisions the opponent makes in a negative state. Plus her ability to be borderline indepentant still makes her the best of the three since she has an actual way to checkmate opponents (unlike Squritle who is forced to rely on switching or a hard read to take a stock) and a functional neutral (unlike Zard who still has a hole in his spacing due his fair and a ground game that isn't oppressive enough make up of it).

Joker's Makarakarn nerf is for projectile reflection volleys. I assume the 50% threshold (or somewhere around it) applied to other reflectors as well

Cool cool. Now can karn's hitboxes not be the size the sun?

Or kill dthrow->drag-down uair and force Joker players into using gun confirms more