Pacific West's Rules for Super Smash Brothers Brawl

[Charoo]

When melee first came out, the "official" rules for the game was very different around the states. So I just wanna make a topic where maybe the pacific west smasher can work together and create a general rule set for this game.

I know the game is not out yet, but there are now copy of Japanese brawl and copy of usa brawl also (sears leaked). So maybe we can all come up with a good rule set.

Things to be decided:

I. General Rule set

Stock - amount of stock per matches
Time per Match - how long each match should be
Final Smash - on or off
Items - on or off and which items

II. Neutral Stages

The stages that are on random

III. Counter Pick Stages

The stages that can be pick after the first match

IV. Banned Stages

Stages that can never be pick no matter what

V. Other Rules

Double Suicide - When two people die at the same time due to a suicide, and thus brings them to a sudden death

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here is my opinion

I. General Rule set

Stock - 3
Time per Match - 7 minutes
Final Smash - off
Items - off

II. Neutral Stages

Battlefield
Castle siege
Final Destination
Lylat Cruise
Smashville
Yoshi's Island

III. Counter Pick Stages

Battleship Halbred
Bridge of Eldin
Distant Planet
Delfino Plaza
Frigate Oprheon
Great Sea
Green Greens (Melee)
Jungle Japes (Melee)
Luigi's Mansion
Norfair
Picto Chat
Pokemon Stadium (Melee)
Pokemon Stadium 2
Brinstar (Melee)
Corneria (Melee)
Rainbow Ride (Melee)

IV. Banned Stages

75m
Big Blue (Melee)
Electroplankton
Flat Zone 2
Green Hill Zone
Mario Bros.
Mario Circuit
Mushroomy Kingdom
New Pork City
Port Town Aero Dive
Rumble Falls
Shadow Moses Island
Skyworld
Spear Pillar
The Summit
Wario Ware
Onett (Melee)
Temple (Melee)
Yoshi's Island (Melee)

V. Other Rules

Double Suicide - I think that they should battle it out in sudden death. It's kinda hard to do it by percentage since the player wasn't camping the match. They just did a smart move in that situation to end the matches in a sudden death.

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Hopefully this will get the discussion started.

 

[brdy_]

castle siege shouldn't be on random - it has walk off ledges

Singles:---
3 Stock
7 minute time limit
Double Elimination Brackets
Items OFF (yes even Smash Balls are off)

Random Stages:---
Final Destination
Battlefield
Yoshi Island
Smashville
Lylat Cruise
Pokemon Stadium (Melee)

Stage bans:---
Luigi's Mansion
Mario
Mario Circuit
Rumble Falls
Elden Bridge
Pokemon Stadium 2
Sky Pillar
Port Town
Warioware
New Pork City
The Summit
Skyworld
75m
Mario Bros.
Flatzone
Shadow Moses Island
Green Hill Zone
Hyrule Temple
Yoshi's Island
Onett
Corneria

Doubles rules:---
2 person teams
$5 each person ($10 per team) (may be $20)
Friendly Fire ON
8 minute time limit
3 stock
Life stealing is ALLOWED
Items OFF

Random Stages:---
Final Destination
Battlefield
Yoshi Island
Smash Ville
Lylat Cruise
Pokemon Stadium (Melee)

Additional Stage Bans for Teams:---
Norfair


Pokemon Stadium 1 may or may not stay on random

 

[keeper]

1.) General

Stock - 3
Time per Match - 7 minutes
Final Smash - off
Items - off

2.) Neutral Stages

Battlefield
Castle Siege
Final Destination
Lylat Cruise
Smashville
Yoshi's Island
Pokemon Stadium (Melee)
Delfino Plaza
Frigate Orpheon
Luigi's Mansion

3.) Counter Pick Stages

Battleship Halbred
Distant Planet
Great Sea
Green Greens (Melee)
Jungle Japes (Melee)
Norfair
Picto Chat
Pokemon Stadium 2
Brinstar (Melee)
Corneria (Melee) (As long as no one does the infinite wall combos, if they do, banned)
Rainbow Ride (Melee)
Electroplankton
Mario Circuit

4.) Banned Stages

75m
Big Blue (Melee)
Bridge of Eldin
Flat Zone 2
Green Hill Zone
Mario Bros.
Mushroomy Kingdom
New Pork City
Port Town Aero Dive
Rumble Falls
Shadow Moses Island
Skyworld
Spear Pillar
The Summit
Wario Ware
Onett (Melee)
Temple (Melee)
Yoshi's Island (Melee)

 

[HyugaRicdeau]

Sigh.

This whole thing reminds me of the 'Emperor's nose' problem. It's like if nobody is allowed to see the emperor's nose, but you ask everyone in the empire how long they think his nose is, and then average it out, somehow you're expecting to get a good guess, and that would be "accurate" because you asked so many people. This is what we're doing with Brawl. We're asking a bunch of noobs (everyone is a noob, though some decidedly more noobly than others) what they think Brawl's metagame is like, and then averaging out everyone's opinion and calling those 'the rules.' Sure, we probably won't be THAT far off, just like it's hard to be THAT far off in guessing the size of a nose, but have we really improved our situation at all?

People say things like 'oh ban this stage because it has a walkoff edge or swimming or a stage hazard' or whatever. Except they never bother to ask WHY those things are sufficient for a ban. How anyone can possibly know if the metagame is such that walk-off edges severely imbalances the game is beyond me. Everynoob's 'extensive' testing of the game with his friends is not even close to enough evidence. There is no way we can ban a stage with 'imbalance' as our reasion yet. Now aside from imbalance, there are 2 other criteria we use to ban stages, which we CAN apply to Brawl to a small degree: excessive randomness (which is not actually UNFAIR; it has to do with how wide deviations are from the mean outcome, and not with game balance). We also ban things because they would change the game in to something altogeter different, which is the problem with say, Hyrule Temple (if you ignore the camping and the Fox-laser-runaway strat). It becomes a contest of the Cave of Life, which is practically unanimously agreed to be too different from the rest of the game (even though it's not actually THAT imbalanced, again discounting the rest of the problems Hyrule has). People say things about stages like 'well that's not how Brawl is supposed to be played.' How the hell can anyone even know that? We don't have a clear enough picture of the metagame to tell how different (with the likely exception of things like New Pork City since the stage is so blatantly different [but even then, who gets to decide what 'blatant' is? Though I'm sure nobody disagrees ^_^] than the rest) is "too different." Even then that is largely a subjective matter, and even amongst the members of the SBR that is true; there was a huge debate over Green Greens for example. And this is six years after the game came out. To be sure, Brawl will definitely evolve faster than Melee because of the size of the community, and because we've had to come to our own independent understanding of competitive gaming (since most of us weren't part of the competitive scene in 'traditional' fighting games), but I'm throwing that out for perspective.

Now I'm not saying we have absolutely no idea what's banworthy or not. I think most of us have come up with our own expectations about what will potentially be on or off in tourneys. But there's no way anyone can possibly say for a fact that they have enough evidence about Brawl's metagame to make well-informed desicions. And let's also remember that in the end, it is all up to the TO of that particular tournament. The SBR makes suggested rules for people who seek advice on how to run a tourney, they aren't THE LAW. I'm just saying that so people will give respect to the subjectivity of the matter.

Really I think a thread like this CAN BE a good idea, but people should stop simply throwing out opinions, and instead talk about their experiences first, and then interpreting the results of their experiences as pertains to the metagame (thus far, because it's definitely going to change quickly once the US release happens). Prime example is the whole infinite A wall combo thing. People assumed it was both inescapable AND broken, which the second isn't even necessarily true even if the first one is (it isn't). Things like that will probably come up again in the future, and I just hope people are smart enough to ask "is there some way around this?" and "if there isn't, does this break the game?" and look for actual EVIDENCE before passing final judgement.

On a tangential note, I think people need to drop the RIGHT NOW mentality about Brawl. Everyone is like WE NEED BAN LIST NOW, and OMG I have to be good at Brawl IMMEDIATELY, RIGHT NOW, ****ING RIGHT WHEN IT COMES OUT. Relax people. We're all going to go through the phase were we lose in tournament to some stupid stage that later turns out to be banned. You'll get over it. And anyone who isn't an ignoramus will understand that you didn't lose because you suck, so your ego is safe.

 

[Jem.]

This is kinda gay, the neutral stages are like, the exact same as melee, but with a few brawl stages -_-

 

[Arash]

if the stage has a walk-off edge, expect to lose to king dedede and the chain grab of doom

ROFL that sounds like a harry potter book

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Settling things with "sudden death" is lame. It just seems like an extremely random way to settle a tie. I say if the match ends and both people die at the same time, they should have a one stock match to settle it.

 

[HyugaRicdeau]

if the stage has a walk-off edge, expect to lose to king dedede and the chain grab of doom

Maybe, but how can anyone possibly know whether, in a tournament setting, that tactic is 'broken' or simply just a very good tactic (which doesn't work against everybody)? Same question goes for every so-called broken tactic that people claim necessitates a ban.

 

[SuperRad]

I'm not gonna do stages, because I haven't played enough to make judgements on them.
I think that 3 stock should be the standard to start with. 4 stock matches take forever sometimes. 3 seemed perfect. I think 7 or 8 minutes is fine for the time limit. personally, all that is important is that it forces people to stop camping eventually and get on with the show.

I don't think final smashes should be turned on. There are huge disparities between the good ones and bad ones. Seems like fox/falco can get two kills per final smash a lot of times. this is just one example of how unbalanced they are.

HOWEVER, I am pro-items for the beginning of brawl. Turn it on low, turn some off, but I think counting out all items because "thats how melee was" is silly. Different games, we should approach it like we've never heard of melee before.

 

[The Game II]

Settling things with "sudden death" is lame. It just seems like an extremely random way to settle a tie. I say if the match ends and both people die at the same time, they should have a one stock match to settle it.

However, if they do that and they get another draw, do they do a 1-stock round again, and again, and again?

How many instances so far have there been where it's a double draw? There's Bowser's grab belly flop and ... I think there was one more. Dat Man Gimpyfish has already explained how you can avoid the double draw with Bowser.

Sudden death for a double draw is fine because it is still going to be a rare occurrence.

--GCII

 

[EdreesesPieces]

However, if they do that and they get another draw, do they do a 1-stock round again, and again, and again?

No, because, as you said:

Sudden death for a double draw is fine because it is still going to be a rare occurrence.

[/QUOTE]

Precisely because it is rare this would be a good rule. We don't have to worry about them doing it "again and again" because usually it will only happen once if it happens, since as you said, it is a rare occurence.

Whether its rare or happens every single match has no bearing on what the fair solution is. So if double death was common, suddenly sudden death would no longer be a viable solution? Then why is it viable if it's rare? People shouldn't get ****** even if it's once a blue moon that it happens.

To me it doesn't seem right if two people are equally skilled at taking the other person's stocks off (the thing that 99.99999% of the time determines the winner of every brawl tournament, the person who is best at taking stocks off while keeping their own) but then super sudden death is a battle of who can get one hit (that has knockback) off, which shouldn't determine the winner of a Brawl set.

Doing a one stock match better determines who is the better player, as compared to a super sudden death faceoff. I feel strongly in this. To me "first hit wins" is no better than coin flip. I've four stocked people who got the first hit off me. I've gotten the first hit off in matches against M2k, PC Chris, etc etc and lots of people who are way better. But I don't believe I've ever gotten the first stock off these same people in any tournament matches. Getting one hit off doesn't mean anything in the long run of who is the better smasher, that's why I find it ridiculous to use it.

I have a question - what would be wrong with doing an entire tournament every every match is best of 1 super sudden death? Now ask yourself, what is the difference between that, and a situation where that happens just once in the tournament? The answer is there is no difference. They are both deterimental to a competitive tournament.

 

[Charoo]

the sudden death will be more likely in this game because there's more "suicide" moves. Like ganon's forward b, bowser's forward b, dedede suck in move, and etc.

The way brawl decide on who die first is different than melee it seems. In melee, if you suck some1 up with kirby and then die, you win base on who was lower in the body. Now, it just go to sudden death though.

As for the neutral stages, we can possibly even only have 5 stages (battlefield, final d, lylat cruise, smashville, yoshi's island) instead of 6. They are truly the real "neutral" stages in this game. As little interferences as possible.

Also, I'm not making this because I'm trying to be the very best like no one ever was or whatever. I just want a rule so that if someone from Washington were to come to a souther California tournament, the rules will be very similar to each other at least. I remember in melee, people play tourneys with item in one city and then with no item in another city. So I just want a general rule that maybe we can all follow, and new people who r coming into the scene can have a guide on what to practice by.

 

[HyugaRicdeau]

Easy tiebreak solution:

Person who counterpicked the stage loses.
If it was the first match, both players get a win, and the "3rd" match is another random stage.

 

[NintendoKing]

This thread is boring and dumb. Close it now, then reopen it in a few weeks.

 

[Jem.]

Singles:---
9 Stock
4 minute time limit
quad elimination Brackets
Items OFF (yes even Smash Balls are off)

Random Stages:---
Electroplankton
Warioware
Spear Pillar
Mario Bros


Stage bans:---
Everything not the random selection

Additional Stage Bans for Teams:---
Everything not on the random selection

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Easy tiebreak solution:

Person who counterpicked the stage loses.
If it was the first match, both players get a win, and the "3rd" match is another random stage.

I like this.

 

[PsychoMidget]

I like this.

Oh yeah Edreese?!

well I like This

Singles:---
9 Stock
4 minute time limit
quad elimination Brackets
Items OFF (yes even Smash Balls are off)

Random Stages:---
Electroplankton
Warioware
Spear Pillar
Mario Bros


Stage bans:---
Everything not the random selection

Additional Stage Bans for Teams:---
Everything not on the random selection

 

[Jem.]

So we're using mine and psycho's agreed ruleset, right?

 

[ResidentWaffle]

I. General Rule set

Stock - 3
Time per Match - 7 minutes
Final Smash - off
Items - off

II. Neutral Stages

Battlefield
Castle siege
Final Destination
Lylat Cruise
Smashville
Yoshi's Island

III. Counter Pick Stages

Battleship Halbred
Bridge of Eldin
Distant Planet
Delfino Plaza
Frigate Oprheon
Great Sea
Green Greens (Melee)
Jungle Japes (Melee)
Luigi's Mansion
Norfair
Picto Chat
Pokemon Stadium (Melee)
Pokemon Stadium 2
Brinstar (Melee)
Corneria (Melee)
Rainbow Ride (Melee)
Skyworld
Onett (Melee)
Yoshi's Island (Melee)
Green Hill Zone
Mushroomy Kingdom (It's scrolling but so was pokefloats)

IV. Banned Stages
75m
Big Blue (Melee)
Electroplankton
Flat Zone 2
Mario Bros.
Mario Circuit
Mushroomy Kingdom (part 2)
New Pork City
Port Town Aero Dive
Rumble Falls
Shadow Moses Island
Spear Pillar
The Summit
Wario Ware
Temple (Melee)

 

[PsychoMidget]

no need to give me credit, you're the one who came up with this genius ruleset

 

[Crom]

that is one nice ruleset jem

 

[t!MmY]

I'd like to see rules be as clear and concise as possible for Brawl.

Stock: 3
Time: 6 to 8
Items: All off, including Smash Ball

Rather than just listing which stages I feel are neutral, counter, or banned, I'm going to give classifications of those stages and then show what you get when you adhere to those classifications.

Classification of Random/Neutral Stages:

1. Static screen movement.
2. No environmental damage
3. Random elements with little or no impact on the players (e.g. platform movement or transformation).

Classification of Counter Stages:

1. Static Screen movement.
2. Random Elements with little impact on the players. (e.g. Stage transformation)
3. Minor environmental damage.

Classification of Banned Stages:

1. 'Walk-off' screens (e.g. Bridge of Eldin)
2. Vertical walls (e.g. Corneria)
3. Excessive scrolling (e.g. Rumble Falls)
4. Major environmental damage or effects (e.g. Wario Ware)
5. A design that invites camping/keep-away/stalling (e.g. Temple)
6. Highly disruptive stage elements (e.g. Skyworld)
   

With those classifications in place we get the following stages:


Neutral Stages

• Battlefield
• Final Destination
• Lylat Cruise
• Smashville
• Yoshi's Island

Counter Pick Stages

• Battleship Halberd
• Luigi's Mansion
• Norfair
• Brinstar (Melee)
• Rainbow Ride (Melee)

Double Suicide
This is nothing new. Kirby could double suicide before Brawl. Players would go to Sudden Death and play it out. If another double suicide happened, it was determined by the game (slot priority). In Brawl, the game declares the one committing the suicide the winner, and by all rights they deserve it if they can pull it off instead of simply hitting the opponent, which is obviously easier.

 

[ender]

i dunno about you guys but up in the ballSAC we are doing no items. 8 minutes all smashvilles wario only. UGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

thats how kabuchi mayumadu wanted the game to be played

 

[Cornstalk]

Rather than just listing which stages I feel are neutral, counter, or banned, I'm going to give classifications of those stages and then show what you get when you adhere to those classifications.

Classification of Random/Neutral Stages:

1. Static screen movement.
2. No environmental damage
3. Random elements with little or no impact on the players (e.g. platform movement or transformation).

Classification of Counter Stages:

1. Static Screen movement.
2. Random Elements with little impact on the players. (e.g. Stage transformation)
3. Minor environmental damage.

Classification of Banned Stages:

1. 'Walk-off' screens (e.g. Bridge of Eldin)
2. Vertical walls (e.g. Corneria)
3. Excessive scrolling (e.g. Rumble Falls)
4. Major environmental damage or effects (e.g. Wario Ware)
5. A design that invites camping/keep-away/stalling (e.g. Temple)
6. Highly disruptive stage elements (e.g. Skyworld)
   

Thats pretty much what I was thinking too. Though the stages with major environmental damage still have some potential as a counterpick. The need to move due to the lava on the new brinstar, or to avoid the pirana plant in pictochat, or the stomping foot in wario all add a new potential for strategy to use the terrain to your advantage in a way that (hopefully) isnt exploitish, but rather feels like they had actual skill in execution.

Regardless though, most players will generally prefer to not have the random high damage elements involved in their match. It would be worth experimenting with them a bit to see how much big terrain damage can effect the flow of battle.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Oh raddishes, Gamestop isn't complying with any of these rules. Apprantly items are on of course, Wiimote + Nunchuck controls..and one minute matches.

 

[AzN_Lep]

i wanna see early tournaments have smash balls on for teams, that'd be awesome.

 

[Silent Wolf]

delfino should be a neutral

 

[brdy_]

Delfino has walk off ledges on parts and has the Mute City effect. Lol

 

[Jem.]

in place we get the following stages:


Neutral Stages

• Battlefield
• Final Destination
• Lylat Cruise
• Smashville
• Yoshi's Island

Counter Pick Stages

• Battleship Halberd
• Luigi's Mansion
• Norfair
• Brinstar (Melee)
• Rainbow Ride (Melee)

Why would we want Rainbow Cruise but not want Delfino.. Delfino is more tournament friendly than rainbow cruise is.

 

[Charoo]

i would be sad if we only have 5 counter pick haha

 

[sidefx]

im not even going to go into what stages should be banned/counterpick/random all im saying is, items, and smash balls should be off. OFF.

as far as i see, 4 stock takes wayyyy too **** long to finish. there are alot of camper happy stages and characters now, and not to mention the damage ratio at when you die on average.

also, stages shouldnt be banned out right cause of a character imbalance. like dedede. you can smash DI out of the dthrows.. its not a guaranteed grab.

sigh this thread is useless for now.. wait till there are a couple tournies to base stage bans/counter picks from .. this is like picking a number out of a hat in a way

 

[pockyD]

yeah i think the ban list should be kept small as far as "broken tactics" go initially

i actually don't think it would be a bad idea for early brawl tournaments to allow each player multiple stage bans (like 3-4) to compensate for extra janky stages being allowed in brawl's early stages, and then if there's a trend with certain stages being constantly banned, there's an obvious spot to take a look at

though some people will probably just ban 3-4 known good stages and force people to play on the weirder ones -_- (easy to address - no banning neutrals)

and also this process probably takes time if people haven't actually thought through the stages before going to a tournament