Pac man's grab - really that bad?

[Conda]

Hey Pac Man mains. I'm learning a lot about Pac Man here, thanks for the good discussion on this subforum.

I'm wondering about Pac Man's grab - is it really as bad as it seems at first? Like other tethers, maybe I just need to treat it differently or use it differently to make it more reliable to land. Does it retain the usefulness that a grab is supposed to have once you use it differently than other grabs, or is it always going to be a punishable non-dependable option for Pac Man?

I feel its an aspect of his character that keeps me from feeling at home with him.

 

[Meiwaku]

It's not bad, just punishable. Don't treat it like a tether, because it's a little different. It has range just slightly beyond Pac's hand and lingers just a little longer after you initiate it.

You can use it on punishes (whiffed smash attack for instance) just like anybody else's grab, just use it at normal grab range and not "tether" grab range. Also, since the hitbox takes just a moment to come out, if you can predict a roll, you can punish with it- roll in and they get grabbed, roll out and they may not be able to get back in to punish you. Overall, even on whiffed grabs, I only get punished about 30% of the time, but i use it pretty sparingly, maybe once or twice a match.

 

[Conda]

It's not bad, just punishable. Don't treat it like a tether, because it's a little different. It has range just slightly beyond Pac's hand and lingers just a little longer after you initiate it.

You can use it on punishes (whiffed smash attack for instance) just like anybody else's grab, just use it at normal grab range and not "tether" grab range. Also, since the hitbox takes just a moment to come out, if you can predict a roll, you can punish with it- roll in and they get grabbed, roll out and they may not be able to get back in to punish you. Overall, even on whiffed grabs, I only get punished about 30% of the time, but i use it pretty sparingly, maybe once or twice a match.

My playstyle revolves a lot around grabbing, that's why I'm wondering how I'd adjust to Pac Man. Opponents can depend on their shield much more than usual vs Pac Man which I'm worried will be a big negative point.

 

[Firedemon0]

Pac-man's grab is only bad when you whiff. It is instant if you are right next to them. It whiffs like anyone else's with a spot dodge, just more drastically because of the end lag. The end of "tether" does not grab. It seems to be, so far, about 2-3 bars from the edge that it stops grabbing. Treat it like a smaller Samus tether and you should be ok.

 

[DrakeRowan]

Pac-man's grab is only bad when you whiff. It is instant if you are right next to them. It whiffs like anyone else's with a spot dodge, just more drastically because of the end lag. The end of "tether" does not grab. It seems to be, so far, about 2-3 bars from the edge that it stops grabbing. Treat it like a smaller Samus tether and you should be ok.

PacMan's grab is not instant. Also, PacMan's grab will wiff if you are right next to them during a dash grab.

 

[Meiwaku]

My playstyle revolves a lot around grabbing, that's why I'm wondering how I'd adjust to Pac Man. Opponents can depend on their shield much more than usual vs Pac Man which I'm worried will be a big negative point.

Pac's F-tilt and aerials are very quick with little end lag, so combined with fruit at mid to short range, he's got a great shield pressure game. Grab doesn't really need to be his main focus.

 

[dragontamer]

Grabs are still useful vs Lucario, Little Mac, and anyone else with a counter however.

Pac-Man's grab has a near-instant hitbox, close to where his hand is. If you whiff the first hitbox, then a 2nd hitbox comes out... eventually. This 2nd hitbox is meaty, tons of active frames. Probably the most active frames in a grab in this entire game. Its very punishable if you whiff, but its relatively easy to hit rolling (or sidestepping) opponents with it.

 

[DJ Arcatek]

Pac's grab is kinda meh. It's not abysmal, but it's not the type that you can throw out at any given time and assume you won't get punished. As some people have said, you'll get a hitbox near his hand the moment you initiate the grab, and then the 2nd hitbox will come out at the end of the "waves". If you dash grab and the opponent is RIGHT in front of you, it'll whiff and that gets annoying at times.

I would recommend using this particular grab against opponents who LOVE to abuse spot dodges. If there's one thing that's good about his grab, it's the somewhat lingering hitbox.

 

[Conda]

Pac's grab is kinda meh. It's not abysmal, but it's not the type that you can throw out at any given time and assume you won't get punished. As some people have said, you'll get a hitbox near his hand the moment you initiate the grab, and then the 2nd hitbox will come out at the end of the "waves". If you dash grab and the opponent is RIGHT in front of you, it'll whiff and that gets annoying at times.

I would recommend using this particular grab against opponents who LOVE to abuse spot dodges. If there's one thing that's good about his grab, it's the somewhat lingering hitbox.

I think the hitbox exists for the whole outward-extending part of his tether. It has a long lasting hitbox as a result which MIGHT be good. It's unique, at least. It's like if you grabbed with DK and, for 1 second, he continually tried to grab someone in front of him. Punishable, yes, but the lingering hitbox would maybe be useful. That might be the case with Pac Man's - maybe it's actually an amazing grab due to it being do different?

And yes, the hitbox comes out right away at his hands, as to be expected. So as long as you land it, it doesn't take long or anything. It's just very punishable if you miss.

 

[dragontamer]

"Amazing" grabs are Shiek, Greninja, and Capt. Falcon. Comes out instantly off of great running speeds and damn near unpunishable, with KO followups at the right %.

Pac-Man's grab has nothing on those guys. We have a unique grab with unique properties, forcing the opponent to learn the matchup. Tricky, but not great by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[castorpollux]

Pacman's grab does beat spotdodges though unlike other grabs

 

[Conda]

Pacman's grab does beat spotdodges though unlike other grabs

Yeah it seems like it's oorse against rollers as tehy can come in and punish asap, while spotdodgers will have a harder time with it since it lingers. Depends on where the meta grows. If rolling away from dashes and grab-range situations is common, then Pac Man is gonna have a hard time grabbing. But if we start spotdoging more than we currently do, then that'll be good for Pac Man.

There's actually not too many spotdodges happening in tourney play, iirc. Maybe that'll change with a GC controller.

 

[dragontamer]

Spot-Dodgers are great vs Shiek and Greninja. But terrible vs Rosalina / Luma.

When people learn the metagame, they will stop spot-dodging vs Pacman. We have too many options that make spot-dodging a pain: Melon, Orange, Apple, Hydrant... even our Smash Attacks have such lingering hitboxes that down-smash and side-smash seem to punish spot-dodgers.

I wouldn't count on high-level players spot-dodging vs PacMan. We're just too good against that tech.

 

[BridgesWithTurtles]

Pac-Man's grab isn't bad, but it isn't good either. The reward for grabbing isn't very much an incentive either, further mitigating its overall usefulness. However, the initial grab box is near-instant, and as others have said, it's a great punish for players who frequently roll, spotdodge, or counter.

Pac-Man does have some follow-up options after Dthrow and sometimes Fthrow (haven't really been successful with the others). I haven't been punished too much for using it. Most players I've encountered still don't fully understand its properties, so they sometimes respect my space even when I whiff. I usually connect, and that's because I tend to limit my use of the grab for the aforementioned rolling/spotdodging/countering scenarios. I've found some success using the grab out of a turn-around. Just use it smartly, and it's a workable grab. Not amazing, but not as bad as some people say it is.

 

[Sleek Media]

It's a good grab, you just can't spam it like the rushdown characters do. Condition your opponents for it. Throw some fruit, do a little wakka wakka, let them smash a fire hydrant or two, then wham. Tech chase.

 

[ptrk83]

up throw and back throw can kill early enough on platforms/edge of stage.

 

[wildvine47]

Well we Pac-mains may or may not have something to look forward to, because I've heard some people claim that Pac's grab in the Wii U version is faster. I've not seen any video testing it, but it's good news for us if true.

 

[Conda]

Well we Pac-mains may or may not have something to look forward to, because I've heard some people claim that Pac's grab in the Wii U version is faster. I've not seen any video testing it, but it's good news for us if true.

It looks to be the same

 

[BADz]

Pacman's grab is only as good as the timing/distance in which you use it. I like grabbing opponents who run up to me because that solves the distance problem. Shield grabbing is also a decent option because of its range up close.

 

[Tornado]

As I've continued to play Pacman and develop myself with him, I've taken grabs out of my repetoire mostly except for situational play and when I KNOW I will be able to connect with it. If you play against a high level player, you will get punished for missing your grab.

The up throw against most opponents will only kill when they get up to around 200% and the back-through I only use when it gets them off the stage. Rest of the time, I'm chomping away on a down throw.

 

[NimbusSpark]

I personally don't like Pac's grab too much. The speed in which it first actually has grab hitboxes is at its 12th frame (Note that his Dash-Grab and Pivot-Grab also start at 12 frames), which is generally slower than the average (8 Frames, found by adding the frames of all non-Mii characters and dividing by the amount of characters used, then rounded). And even then, if Pac misses, he's likely to get punished due to the massive endlag it contains.

It's range is also a bit misleading - despite it being a semi-tether, the grab itself does not have hitboxes around the last three bars of his grab animation. Whilst it's decently fast for a tether, its misleading range leads to more whiffs which in turn leads to Pac's endlag being the death of him. No wonder why Abadango avoids it like the plague.

It's not a BAD grab, but it's not too good for a grab. It's just that the looming threat of being punished by whiffing Pac's grab is too great for me. At least his throws are decent enough to be called 'viable'.

 

[BSP]

I still stand by my statements of Pac-Man's grab being God awful and the reason why isn't a top tier character. Some of this has already been mentioned, but just to reiterate:

• It comes out frame 12, and it takes even longer if the beam has to go catch the opponent. That is REEEAAALLLLYYYY slow for a grab in a game where shield is very powerful.
• The entire animation lasts for what feels like an eternity. Any opponent that's paying attention will punish you for missing, possibly even with smash attacks
• The entire beam doesn't grab
• The beam only grabs while moving forward, and there are dead zones in it.
• Dash grab can whiff on point blank characters
• The pivot grab doesn't come out any faster from what I read on the frame data, and I don't think the range increases.
• It actually can be spotdodged, and you will get Fsmashed once it is

To be completely honest, you'd be better off never rarely using Pac-Man's grab. It's a shame because his throws are pretty useful, but he had to have some major (although too big of one) weakness.

 

[Sleek Media]

You can gripe about how bad the grab is all you want, but the fact is that if you won't throw it at all, you're telling your opponent "Hey, feel free to attack me all day and I won't even fight back!". The shield grab has to be a threat. Fire hydrants will only get you so far in managing pressure from a rushdown character.

 

[dragontamer]

To be completely honest, you'd be better off never using Pac-Man's grab. It's a shame because his throws are pretty useful, but he had to have some major (although too big of one) weakness.

I disagree about "never". PacMan's down-throw and pummel, as well as his back-throw are 12f attacks, and are amongst PacMan's best punishes at that speed.

Here are PacMan's punishes:

1. Jab-Jab-Jab: 4f for the first jab to strike. 3+2+4 damage (9%)
2. Throw: 12f. Pummel is 3%, down-throw is 10%. Back throw is 10%, and also is a decent KO attack.
3. USmash 13f for the horizontal hitbox, 16f for the top hitbox. 3%+14% damage.
4. FSmash at 18f.

I find that throws punish better than USmash. (USmash has a very small hitbox, you often have to dash->USmash which is even slower than PacMan's grab).

Whereas a normal character may punish an opponent's whiff with a quick smash attack... PacMan just doesn't have that option. Very few characters have a 18F cooldown. Instead, you will be using jab-jab-jab and grabs to rack up damage on your opponent's whiffed attacks.

DTilt and FTilt do not KO, and do less damage than a Jab-jab jab combo. So those aren't options.

 

[BSP]

You can gripe about how bad the grab is all you want, but the fact is that if you won't throw it at all, you're telling your opponent "Hey, feel free to attack me all day and I won't even fight back!". The shield grab has to be a threat. Fire hydrants will only get you so far in managing pressure from a rushdown character.

You won't be shield grabbing a good player with Pac-Man anyway. If they space their attacks properly, they should be able to roll, side step, jump over, run away, or hit you before the tractor beam connects, meaning you get punished instead. I've learned the hard way to stop trying to shield grab with Pac-Man, it doesn't work against properly spaced moves. Heck, even with poor spacing, they still probably have time to dodge or hit Pac-Man as long as they aren't right next to his hand when he goes for the grab. I've had Captain Falcon neutral air my shield with pretty poor spacing, I go for the grab, he spotdodges it, and then Fsmashes me.

Pac-Man still has an OOS game, but grab shouldn't be a big part of it.

@ D dragontamer yeah, you've got a point. So how about only when you're sure it's going to connect? Otherwise, I don't think it's worth the risk.

 

[dragontamer]

@ D dragontamer yeah, you've got a point. So how about only when you're sure it's going to connect? Otherwise, I don't think it's worth the risk.

Yeah, unless you're reading the opponent like an absolute pro.

Outside of cooldowns, I also use grabs on the opponent's landing. Its meaty and covers a decent "zone". A lot of characters have really good Fairs or Nairs to space you out, but some like Mario have such short range that a Grab on his landing is actually kinda decent. (And Mario using Fair for spacing == lulz on the landing recovery. I don't see it often, to say the least)

But that's going back to "being sure" you're gonna land grab.

 

[Firedemon0]

You won't be shield grabbing a good player with Pac-Man anyway. If they space their attacks properly, they should be able to roll, side step, jump over, run away, or hit you before the tractor beam connects, meaning you get punished instead. I've learned the hard way to stop trying to shield grab with Pac-Man, it doesn't work against properly spaced moves. Heck, even with poor spacing, they still probably have time to dodge or hit Pac-Man as long as they aren't right next to his hand when he goes for the grab. I've had Captain Falcon neutral air my shield with pretty poor spacing, I go for the grab, he spotdodges it, and then Fsmashes me.

Pac-Man still has an OOS game, but grab shouldn't be a big part of it.

@ D dragontamer yeah, you've got a point. So how about only when you're sure it's going to connect? Otherwise, I don't think it's worth the risk.

With higher stun attacks on Pac-man's Shield, you can shield grab during shield stun and for a large portion of the cast you do grab. I need to get video showing this, but for example, You get a ftilt from Little Mac in shield, you immediately shield grab, he will be just the right distance to be grabbed as you are knocked further back.

 

[dragontamer]

With higher stun attacks on Pac-man's Shield, you can shield grab during shield stun and for a large portion of the cast you do grab. I need to get video showing this, but for example, You get a ftilt from Little Mac in shield, you immediately shield grab, he will be just the right distance to be grabbed as you are knocked further back.

Interesting.

If you're doing that, can you be sure to spam LittleMac's neutral-A after the FTilt? IIRC, that's LittleMac's fastest option on the ground (2f jab, which is faster than dodge or roll, which is 4-frames)

 

[Sleek Media]

You won't be shield grabbing a good player with Pac-Man anyway.

You will if you keep moving and applying pressure, as opposed to standing around with your shield up like a schmuck.

 

[Firedemon0]

Interesting.

If you're doing that, can you be sure to spam LittleMac's neutral-A after the FTilt? IIRC, that's LittleMac's fastest option on the ground (2f jab, which is faster than dodge or roll, which is 4-frames)

Yeah, I can attempt that, I've have a bit of a backlog of stuff I've been meaning to show off.

 

[Jay-kun]

I still stand by my statements of Pac-Man's grab being God awful and the reason why isn't a top tier character. Some of this has already been mentioned, but just to reiterate:

• It comes out frame 12, and it takes even longer if the beam has to go catch the opponent. That is REEEAAALLLLYYYY slow for a grab in a game where shield is very powerful.
• The entire animation lasts for what feels like an eternity. Any opponent that's paying attention will punish you for missing, possibly even with smash attacks
• The entire beam doesn't grab
• The beam only grabs while moving forward, and there are dead zones in it.
• Dash grab can whiff on point blank characters
• The pivot grab doesn't come out any faster from what I read on the frame data, and I don't think the range increases.
• It actually can be spotdodged, and you will get Fsmashed once it is

To be completely honest, you'd be better off never rarely using Pac-Man's grab. It's a shame because his throws are pretty useful, but he had to have some major (although too big of one) weakness.

"God awful"
how can it get spotdodged??

Yeah, unless you're reading the opponent like an absolute pro.

Outside of cooldowns, I also use grabs on the opponent's landing. Its meaty and covers a decent "zone". A lot of characters have really good Fairs or Nairs to space you out, but some like Mario have such short range that a Grab on his landing is actually kinda decent. (And Mario using Fair for spacing == lulz on the landing recovery. I don't see it often, to say the least)

But that's going back to "being sure" you're gonna land grab.

well I read my very good, and i am guessin no one here thinks im a pro, so then if a casual(?) can do it, why not a pro? (checkmate)

 

[NcamSB]

Try using your grab as soon as the water from your hydrant pushes you. Most of the time if you whiff the attack you're too far away from the opponent for them to punish. Another tactic I use with the water is pivot grabbing towards the water. You get an extra boost from the water, plus pivot grabbing in general increases your range. I catch a lot of opponents like this be cause i'm basically a "sliding grab' which covers most of the stage so if and opponent rolls, spot dodge or shields its a for sure grab. Try it out as a mix up and lmk know what you think.

 

[Nu~]

Yeah, I can attempt that, I've have a bit of a backlog of stuff I've been meaning to show off.

Did it work? If so, then this may really help our grab game.

 

[Firedemon0]

Did it work? If so, then this may really help our grab game.

From what I can tell yes. He throws out the jab, it actually makes it easier to grab him, and we do not get hit. It even works on Dedede's ftilt, one of the safest pokes in the game.

 

[Zage]

Its really not as bad as people make it out to be, but I do agree that in most situations you should not being using it as a OOS option. The frame data was posted somewhere in this subforum, but the active frames for the attack are meaty as hell, it even beats spot dodges in most cases.

also, I'm not sure if this is just something with Pac's grab, but you can dash forward, skid to a halt and input grab really late, and Pac-man will do a pretty sizable boost forward from a complete standstill.

 

[Firedemon0]

also, I'm not sure if this is just something with Pac's grab, but you can dash forward, skid to a halt and input grab really late, and Pac-man will do a pretty sizable boost forward from a complete standstill.

Dash attack works the same way. Its a great mindgame tool. You do initial dash, wait about half a sec, then hit A to waka waka. Grab and Dash attack are both faster then shield in this case, which is mind boggling for some reason.

 

[PEPESPAIN]

If they don't DI correctly you can jab lock a lot of characters with the dthrown. If they DI to avoid the jab lock you can punish them with sideB if they tech on the ground, if they jump you can punish with fair/uair , if they jump-dodge just wait on the floor and fsmash or utilt and start a combo.

This works from 30% to 60%. It is easier on high weighters.

When you see that they bounce against the floor ->

fair,fair, fsmash (the easiest it deals around 37%)
fair, fair, fair, fsmash
fair, fair,nair, key
fair, fair, fair, hydrant, key

You can jab lock them with the bthrow at low %

I can make a video of this if you want. I have started to do this consistently

 

[Zage]

If they don't DI correctly you can jab lock a lot of characters with the dthrown. If they DI to avoid the jab lock you can punish them with sideB if they tech on the ground, if they jump you can punish with fair/uair , if they jump-dodge just wait on the floor and fsmash or utilt and start a combo.

This works from 30% to 60%. It is easier on high weighters.

When you see that they bounce against the floor ->

fair,fair, fsmash (the easiest it deals around 37%)
fair, fair, fair, fsmash
fair, fair,nair, key
fair, fair, fair, hydrant, key

You can jab lock them with the bthrow at low %

I can make a video of this if you want. I have started to do this consistently

I assume this is what you mean?

 

[PEPESPAIN]

I assume this is what you mean?

Yes, it is. It is one option.

 

[Judo777]

Pac Man's grab is the worst grab in the game, I actually don't think there are any that are close to as bad (maybe yoshis?).

That being said, grabs are really good in general, so even tho his is bad (like really bad) for a grab, its still a grab, and is therefore good. Grabs beat shields and shields are good. And as stated, if spaced correctly i think this grab will beat a spot dodge reliably.