Official Pac-Man's Amazing Full Colour Fan Club! - Pac-Man General Thread

[Pacack]

Your sprite art is amazing! I can't wait to see what else you do.


But those are the new designs of the ghosts? Man, I'm not bothered in the slightest by Pac-Man's redesign, but I just don't like what they did to the ghosts at all.

Those are indeed the new ghost designs.

 

[Bauske]

Hey, this may be a stupid request, but could you do Party Pac-Man, classic Pac-Man, Ms. Pac-Man, Jr. Pac-Man, and/or Professor Pac-Man? And maybe even Pooka?

Haha, maybe sometime in the future. Right now, these are for a project that's gonna take most of the month, so I won't be able to do those any time soon. xD

Your sprite art is amazing! I can't wait to see what else you do.


But those are the new designs of the ghosts? Man, I'm not bothered in the slightest by Pac-Man's redesign, but I just don't like what they did to the ghosts at all.

Yeah, those are the new ghost designs. I guess to each his own, but I think it gives them a lot more character and personality than each one looking exactly the same with differently colored gloves. They still had personality back then, but you really couldn't tell what it was just by looking at them. With the redesigns, you can get a hint of who they are before you see them in action, plus it makes each one more unique.

 

[Pacack]

Haha, maybe sometime in the future. Right now, these are for a project that's gonna take most of the month, so I won't be able to do those any time soon. xD

Of course. Will you be posting all of those in this thread eventually?

 

[Bauske]

Of course. Will you be posting all of those in this thread eventually?

If people wish to see it, sure. The remaining characters in the 31 days won't be Pac-Man related, but I can still post the final picture here when it's done.

 

[JamesDNaux]

I guess I'm getting some kind of reverse vibe with them. Pac-Man's design looks fine because he's Pac-Man, he was always designed with arms and legs, despite his pie-chart appearance in the arcade game, the newer design is just more detailed and there's nothing wrong with that. The ghosts were always just these blobs with eyes to me, seeing them with arms and hair-like things is strange. Plus Clyde looks a bit eh... while Inky and Blinky look like snarky punks. Pinky is cute though.

 

[Bauske]

I guess I'm getting some kind of reverse vibe with them. Pac-Man's design looks fine because he's Pac-Man, he was always designed with arms and legs, despite his pie-chart appearance in the arcade game, the newer design is just more detailed and there's nothing wrong with that. The ghosts were always just these blobs with eyes to me, seeing them with arms and hair-like things is strange. Plus Clyde looks a bit eh... while Inky and Blinky look like snarky punks. Pinky is cute though.

Fair point. Not everyone agrees with them, that's for sure. But the ghosts did have arms and gloves beforehand. Even on the old Ms. Pac-Man arcade cabinet, they had arms, though they looked kinda weird. Almost fuzzy. Then on the Game Boy box cover of Pac-Man, they changed them all to be more blob like with differently colored gloves.

These are the designs they kept for years, honestly. Up until the recent show, that's what they looked like, which wasn't ever bad. I liked them that way, too, and they still had their personalities. Pinky even still had a crush on Pac-Man. xD You can see them pretty clearly in the Pac-Man World 2 opening video.

 

[Arcadenik]

Man, I get the feeling that Pac-Man World 2 is probably the best Pac-Man World game... maybe one of the best non-maze Pac-Man games...

 

[Pacack]

If people wish to see it, sure. The remaining characters in the 31 days won't be Pac-Man related, but I can still post the final picture here when it's done.

Consider posting each day's on your profile. I'll definitely check it out.

Fair point. Not everyone agrees with them, that's for sure. But the ghosts did have arms and gloves beforehand. Even on the old Ms. Pac-Man arcade cabinet, they had arms, though they looked kinda weird. Almost fuzzy. Then on the Game Boy box cover of Pac-Man, they changed them all to be more blob like with differently colored gloves.

These are the designs they kept for years, honestly. Up until the recent show, that's what they looked like, which wasn't ever bad. I liked them that way, too, and they still had their personalities. Pinky even still had a crush on Pac-Man. xD You can see them pretty clearly in the Pac-Man World 2 opening video.

...The memories.

Man, I get the feeling that Pac-Man World 2 is probably the best Pac-Man World game... maybe one of the best non-maze Pac-Man games...

It's my personal favorite game of all time. Then again, I'm biased, since it was one of my first games (first really complicated game).

 

[BridgesWithTurtles]

Congrats on finishing your Pac-Man sprites, Bauske. Your sig looks fantastic now that the gang's complete.

I have a small question for everyone here, while we're still on the subject of stages. What do you guys think a maze stage's actual name should be? Just "Maze"?

 

[Bauske]

Congrats on finishing your Pac-Man sprites, Bauske. Your sig looks fantastic now that the gang's complete.

I have a small question for everyone here, while we're still on the subject of stages. What do you guys think a maze stage's actual name should be? Just "Maze"?

Probably something with a bit more to it, like "Pac-Man's Maze" or "The Maze." Simply just saying "Maze" sounds a bit bland.

 

[Koopaul]

Probably "The Maze" as it's so iconic now. It's not just a maze it's THE Maze.

 

[Pacack]

Congrats on finishing your Pac-Man sprites, Bauske. Your sig looks fantastic now that the gang's complete.

I have a small question for everyone here, while we're still on the subject of stages. What do you guys think a maze stage's actual name should be? Just "Maze"?

I'd go with "The Maze", myself.

 

[Dynamite]

Yeah, those are the new ghost designs. I guess to each his own, but I think it gives them a lot more character and personality than each one looking exactly the same with differently colored gloves. They still had personality back then, but you really couldn't tell what it was just by looking at them. With the redesigns, you can get a hint of who they are before you see them in action, plus it makes each one more unique.

You know this is a very good point and this is coming from a guy who likes their Pacman World look more. Their current designs does make them look less generic and more unique. I guess that's why I like most of their current designs. I say most because to me Clyde's new look is a swing and a miss, but I guess it does match his personality... Speaking of Clyde, you did a nice job on his sprite.

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

Fair point. Not everyone agrees with them, that's for sure. But the ghosts did have arms and gloves beforehand. Even on the old Ms. Pac-Man arcade cabinet, they had arms, though they looked kinda weird. Almost fuzzy. Then on the Game Boy box cover of Pac-Man, they changed them all to be more blob like with differently colored gloves.

These are the designs they kept for years, honestly. Up until the recent show, that's what they looked like, which wasn't ever bad. I liked them that way, too, and they still had their personalities. Pinky even still had a crush on Pac-Man. xD You can see them pretty clearly in the Pac-Man World 2 opening video.

Did you know that Pinky was a guy before the Pac Man World games happened?

 

[Deleted member]

The new ghost designs are one of the only things I don't mind in Ghostly Adventures. Pac-Man's design is really, really bad in my opinion, mostly his new proportions and teeth, but the ghosts didn't go through such a bad remake. I think they were best in Pac-Man Party, but they were outright generic in the World series. If you see their 3D models, they're all the same bland, punching bag-like design with awkward limbs attached.

If they were to use a ghost 3D design in Smash, I'd prefer it was PMP over anything else. I don't think the cartoon should play any part in it. It's way too recent and it'd be best if the designs originated from a game. Also just have to continue giving my praise to those Pac-Man sprites, great work.

 

[CyberWolfBia]

great Clyde sprite, @ Bauske ! ... as always! ^^ I love their designs and personalities on G.A., btw...

I have a small question for everyone here, while we're still on the subject of stages. What do you guys think a maze stage's actual name should be? Just "Maze"?

I think they'll call it of "The Maze" anyway... but could be called "The Maze 256",.. as seen on Ghostly Adventures as well, as reference from the original Pac-Man game and its 256 screens

I don't think the cartoon should play any part in it. It's way too recent and it'd be best if the designs originated from a game.

There is a misinterpretation of the proposed of the cartoon in general, actually ... because Pac-Man was completely rebooted with G.A., and the cartoon serves as an explanation of this new universe.. we could have the 8-Bit sprites of the Ghost Gang as a reference to classic games, I think; however no more than that..., other versions are somewhat unfeasible, an oscillation of models from Pac-Man Party and other games, for example, would make a huge mess ... and how BridgesWithTurtles and I were discussing about the choice of stages, for the sake of marketing and recognition, NAMCO shouldn't use more than visual representations of these two extremes (the original arcade game and Ghostly Adventures), in fact, I think it's even healthy using most of the content coming from only Ghostly Adventures in Smash, as would be well for the image of new Pac-Man on the market, and structuring more what has been created for him.

but it's an opinion, of course...

 

[Deleted member]

I realize the new cartoon is part of a wider reboot of Pac-Man, but it's simply so recent and Smash Bros is supposed to represent all of Nintendo or video game history. The current revision of Pac-Man is only a drop in the ocean of other designs used over the decades, so I think Sakurai will like to pull from all of them. Look at MegaMan's design, specifically catered to his NES "robotic" look with no reference to the later PS1 games. I imagine he could utilize the World games, or Party to an extent; I imagine we'll see a combination of all these designs, rather than a definitively cartoon/World/arcade one.

Personally I'd like them to focus less on the cartoon just because it's the most extreme revision so far and gets rid of some of the aspects I liked from the original arcade booth design, such as the limb proportions, that expressive, toothless smile and nod to the audience with his whimsical attitude. In the least, I think we'll get some of both worlds.

 

[CyberWolfBia]

I realize the new cartoon is part of a wider reboot of Pac-Man, but it's simply so recent and Smash Bros is supposed to represent all of Nintendo or video game history. The current revision of Pac-Man is only a drop in the ocean of other designs used over the decades, so I think Sakurai will like to pull from all of them. Look at MegaMan's design, specifically catered to his NES "robotic" look with no reference to the later PS1 games. I imagine he could utilize the World games, or Party to an extent; I imagine we'll see a combination of all these designs, rather than a definitively cartoon/World/arcade one.

Personally I'd like them to focus less on the cartoon just because it's the most extreme revision so far and gets rid of some of the aspects I liked from the original arcade booth design, such as the limb proportions, that expressive, toothless smile and nod to the audience with his whimsical attitude. In the least, I think we'll get some of both worlds.

Well, I don't think that Sakurai has so much power of decision on 3rd party characters, besides, of course, the moveset decision, at least ... not even Nintendo has this authorization, I guess. Sonic is proof of that, and Mega Man, actually, his most recent appearances are in 8-Bit (Mega Man 9 and 10 or SFxMM), then Sakurai also adopted Mega's latest incarnation ...

And even if it were the case, and Sakurai were able to choose which version is best suited to Smash in his opinion, I don't believe that NAMCO would allow this mess of marketing .. if Pac-Man has only a currently single version to being explored (GA), is very likely that this would be chosen, after all.

But I wouldn't worry about the content of games pre-reboot; trophies, musics, stickers and the own Pac's moveset probably will represent them as a respectable honorable mention;

 

[Deleted member]

I don't know, Capcom allowed Sakurai to use a basically completely original version of MegaMan, I think Namco would allow for him to make a mesh of old and new Pac-Man. It's not too confusing, I think it's basically just Pac-Man whatever form of him it is exactly, it doesn't need to be explicitly one version or another.

The designs are pretty much similar aside from a few changes, so I don't think they'd mind. As long as it's Pac-Man, he's yellow, has the gloves and sneakers, I don't think they would mind. After all, we always hear Reggie, Iwata and so on talk about how Sakurai has the last say on newcomers, plus Namco said at the beginning of development they were humbled to work on the game and I'm sure they'd be honored if any character was included. I don't think it's too far out to say that Sakurai could use whatever type of Pac-Man design he felt fit best.

 

[CyberWolfBia]

I don't know, Capcom allowed Sakurai to use a basically completely original version of MegaMan, I think Namco would allow for him to make a mesh of old and new Pac-Man. It's not too confusing, I think it's basically just Pac-Man whatever form of him it is exactly, it doesn't need to be explicitly one version or another.

The designs are pretty much similar aside from a few changes, so I don't think they'd mind. As long as it's Pac-Man, he's yellow, has the gloves and sneakers, I don't think they would mind. After all, we always hear Reggie, Iwata and so on talk about how Sakurai has the last say on newcomers, plus Namco said at the beginning of development they were humbled to work on the game and I'm sure they'd be honored if any character was included. I don't think it's too far out to say that Sakurai could use whatever type of Pac-Man design he felt fit best.

Is not that Capcom allowed anything for Mega Man, he also has some representation from Mega Man 8 and Marvel vs. Capcom/The Power Fighters in his moveset...but this appearence chosen, was his most recent, as I said; so, he's a mix.. but the appearence from his most recent game, just like Samus or any other character in Smash; ... and just for a side note, a supposed redesign that was done, was done by Capcom, and not Sakurai and/or Nintendo.

honored is pretty obvious that NAMCO would feel if Pac's is chosen for Smash, but they have to respect a pattern of product... I think that was a big mistake what they did with Everybody's Golf 6; ... After MKAGPDX and other few appearences of Pac were all with his G.A. design.

 

[Deleted member]

Is not that Capcom allowed anything for Mega Man, he also has some representation from Mega Man 8 and Marvel vs. Capcom/The Power Fighters in his moveset...but this appearence chosen, was his most recent, as I said; so, he's a mix.. but the appearence from his most recent game, just like Samus or any other character in Smash; ... and just for a side note, a supposed redesign that was done, was done by Capcom, and not Sakurai and/or Nintendo.

honored is pretty obvious that NAMCO would feel if Pac's is chosen for Smash, but they have to respect a pattern of product... I think that was a big mistake what they did with Everybody's Golf 6; ... After MKAGPDX and other few appearences of Pac were all with his G.A. design.

You have a point on what they did in the latest Mario Kart Arcade game, that would be the best place to draw from if I were Sakurai. I simply disagree on where the design decision is coming from, we can both agree that Namco would prefer if it fitted their newest re-design and it just so happens to be in the form of the cartoon, but I think Sakurai will be the one to make the final decision. However, even if Namco doesn't object, he may simply, out of respect, use the latest design. I also forgot MegaMan used MegaMan 8 stuff, whoops.

I don't particularly mind which version, as long as you what you said comes true about the other representation in stages, assist trophies, trophies and so on. Pac-Man is a big series that simply can't be represented by a single character, even just the original arcade game is quite complex once you get beyond the simple mechanics. If we can get a horrendous stage for Donkey Kong Arcade, we deserve one based on the original Pac-Man maze.

 

[CyberWolfBia]

You have a point on what they did in the latest Mario Kart Arcade game, that would be the best place to draw from if I were Sakurai. I simply disagree on where the design decision is coming from, we can both agree that Namco would prefer if it fitted their newest re-design and it just so happens to be in the form of the cartoon, but I think Sakurai will be the one to make the final decision. However, even if Namco doesn't object, he may simply, out of respect, use the latest design. I also forgot MegaMan used MegaMan 8 stuff, whoops.

I don't particularly mind which version, as long as you what you said comes true about the other representation in stages, assist trophies, trophies and so on. Pac-Man is a big series that simply can't be represented by a single character, even just the original arcade game is quite complex once you get beyond the simple mechanics. If we can get a horrendous stage for Donkey Kong Arcade, we deserve one based on the original Pac-Man maze.

I can't be 100% sure, of course.. but I strongly believe that, at least about design decision, it's the company that owns the characters that decides... Sakurai decides the rest (the moveset, the music, etc);

but it's not something to worry about guys.. the G.A. Pacster is a big deal for appealing the kids; AND, Pac-Man is Pac-Man whatever he looks.. the same yellow guy that we all love,... he being in Smash as a playable character, I'll be happy anyway... =)

 

[Bauske]

You know this is a very good point and this is coming from a guy who likes their Pacman World look more. Their current designs does make them look less generic and more unique. I guess that's why I like most of their current designs. I say most because to me Clyde's new look is a swing and a miss, but I guess it does match his personality... Speaking of Clyde, you did a nice job on his sprite.

Thanks, Dynamite! And thanks everyone else who commented on it. I really appreciate all your feedback and support! :D And yeah, I wasn't too fond of Clyde's look at first either, but after watching the show, it fits his personality pretty well, so it grew on me, and now he's one of my favorites. Blinky is still top spot though. They made him look both mischievous and adorable at the same time.

I can't be 100% sure, of course.. but I strongly believe that, at least about design decision, it's the company that owns the characters that decides... Sakurai decides the rest (the moveset, the music, etc);

but it's not something to worry about guys.. the G.A. Pacster is a big deal for appealing the kids; AND, Pac-Man is Pac-Man whatever he looks.. the same yellow guy that we all love,... he being in Smash as a playable character, I'll be happy anyway... =)

I agree with this. While I'm fond of the Pac-Man World 2 design of Pac, I believe that if Namco gets Pac-Man into Smash, they're going to use the new Ghostly Adventures look before any others. They've been using that everywhere in their attempts to reboot the series (Mario Kart Arcade, Pac-Man Museum, ticket redemption Pac-Man arcade games), and as much as it's not 100% successful with classic Pac-Man fans, it has been very successful with kids and new fans. They've produced tons of new toys for the series, calanders, clothing, etc., and they signed on for a season two of the show after producing 26 episodes. It was considered Disney XD's most popular show for a while, and even though Disney XD is sort of a rarer premium channel (and the majority of the shows on it are awful), that's still saying something.

Regardless of how he looks, I'm just excited for Pac-Man to be in the game. If he gets in, I swear he'll be the only character I play as. I might stray here and there to try out the other characters, but I'll always go back to Pac-Man. Even if he's awful. xD

 

[CyberWolfBia]

I agree with this. While I'm fond of the Pac-Man World 2 design of Pac, I believe that if Namco gets Pac-Man into Smash, they're going to use the new Ghostly Adventures look before any others. They've been using that everywhere in their attempts to reboot the series (Mario Kart Arcade, Pac-Man Museum, ticket redemption Pac-Man arcade games), and as much as it's not 100% successful with classic Pac-Man fans, it has been very successful with kids and new fans. They've produced tons of new toys for the series, calanders, clothing, etc., and they signed on for a season two of the show after producing 26 episodes. It was considered Disney XD's most popular show for a while, and even though Disney XD is sort of a rarer premium channel (and the majority of the shows on it are awful), that's still saying something.

Regardless of how he looks, I'm just excited for Pac-Man to be in the game. If he gets in, I swear he'll be the only character I play as. I might stray here and there to try out the other characters, but I'll always go back to Pac-Man. Even if he's awful. xD

I doubt Pac's gameplay will be bad somehow... with so much potential in his games, Sakurai can't go from a wrong way; .. I trust him, actually. But, I'm with you, .. whatever he plays, I'll main him. XD (actually, I main Pac on Street Fighter X Tekken, and was hard to adapt myself, but, at the end, he's a great character).

EDIT:
Oh, I loved this Arcade Machine, is beautiful!

-------

okay, new topic... Pacster size!.... taking as base Mario Kart Arcade GP series,.. seems that Pac is a little smaller than Mario (but one very subtle difference); Do you guys think that Sakurai will take as base this size?.. I mean, he already said that Smash Bros. series doesn't always respect the original scales... (For the happiness of Ridley's supporters XD).. but Pacster can change his size sometimes, as seen in Pac-Man World series, Ghostly Adventures and Street Fighter X Tekken....

what do you think? a standard character, of weight and height as Mario, Sonic, and apparently Mega Man, sounds right to me.

 

[BridgesWithTurtles]

I imagine that Pac-Man would be about the height of the Ice Climbers, with a weight somewhere close to Ness and Lucas.

 

[CyberWolfBia]

I think he very "normal" for a mascot for be lighter... speed too, nothing too fast, nothing too slow... I just think that he's air game could be bad to balance his general gameplay better, .. as I did in my moveset, he would be better on the ground, .. his Tilts and Special attacks would be very useful horizontally.

 

[Bauske]

I imagine Pac-Man to be about the same height as Mario. In other words, pretty average. Mario is pretty short in stature, but him, MegaMan, and Sonic all share this height, while some characters, like Samus, Peach, Ganon, are all taller than him. I don't imagine Pac being tall, but I certainly wouldn't put him at Pikachu or Kirby height.

I'd also classify him as a pretty all-around character. He's never been particularly fast in the Pac-Man World games, running at a decent pace, so I imagine his speed would be average, but his punches, jabs, and moves could come out fairly quickly. He'd be a light-to-average damage dealer with some powerful, risky smash attacks, similar to how Mewtwo was. In other words, more importance on using all his moves rather than just trying to get the smash attacks out.

 

[Deleted member]

Pac-Man is most comparable to Sonic in shape and size, only a spherical body instead of a disfigured hedgehog-inspired one. Pac-Man would fit right into the Smash cast as he's a fairly simple shape but is expressive and has distinguishing features to set himself apart. I find that the simpler looking characters look the best, ones that aren't human characters with all sorts of baubles and sharp edges.

For example, Dedede looks right at home and almost perfect in Smash 4, but I wasn't a fan of Marth. Humans tend not to look as good as the cartoony designs, Pac-Man is definitely that. Although I'm not a fan of the new GA design as much, it doesn't change the basic design all that much and it's too classic to mess up, just a sphere with limbs and a funny looking face. Not a lot more complex than Kirby.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Nice sprites, Bauske!

 

[Bauske]

Nice sprites, Bauske!

Thanks! I'm glad you like them. :3

 

[CyberWolfBia]

I'm doing something related to Pac's size between the characters of Smash... taking as reference his size in Mario Kart Arcade GP DX, close to Mario, Luigi and Peach.. I hope to finish soon, if I can today.. but I'm depending of another person for finish;... when I have something, I'll post here. =)

 

[Pacack]

I'm doing something related to Pac's size between the characters of Smash... taking as reference his size in Mario Kart Arcade GP DX, close to Mario, Luigi and Peach.. I hope to finish soon, if I can today.. but I'm depending of another person for finish;... when I have something, I'll post here. =)

That sounds very interesting. I look forward to seeing it!

 

[SegaNintendoUbisoft]

Pac-Man has my full support, it would be a missed opportunity to not have him since Namco is co-developing. I hope Sakuari realizes the he actually has a capable moveset, and isn't just a circle with a mouth.

 

[CyberWolfBia]

well, done!... apparently, my memory betrayed me. XD.. Pac is really smaller than Mario, a not a little bit as I remembered.. (still not too much) well, at least nowadays...

here, you can see the comparision from Mario Kart Arcade GP DX;

and now, here's Pacster together with his future fellows of cast =P (Ridley included, I hope);

but, size doesn't mean too much about his gameplay.. just a thing about hurt boxes and hit boxes, I guess.. if we take MKAGPDX again:

Spoiler

---we can see that he's a standard character, very much equal to Mario; so... I expect him this way on Smash4; =)

~ credits to:
@Angelglory for the comparision lineup of models;
KaraszKun (from The Models Resource) for rip the original model from Ghostly Adventures game;
and LexaKiness (from DeviantArt) for convert the model to XNALara, for me being able to use and pose it. =)

 

[Deleted member]

That's honestly an absolutely fantastic reference post CyberWolf. Invaluable for predicting how Pac-Man would look in Smash.

 

[WindozeNT]

his inclusion is inevitable. Pac-Man is almost synonymous with arcade games, so I think that at some point in SSB's life, he will be playable or at least referenced.

 

[CyberWolfBia]

That's honestly an absolutely fantastic reference post CyberWolf. Invaluable for predicting how Pac-Man would look in Smash.

really thanks, friend! glad you liked! ^^;....

well, at least, in the subject of size, Pacster isn't too big for Smash, I guess, huh? =P.. there's another point at his favor. XD

 

[Deleted member]

really thanks, friend! glad you liked! ^^;....

well, at least, in the subject of size, Pacster isn't too big for Smash, I guess, huh? =P.. there's another point at his favor. XD

His size is actually a bit smaller than I thought, the fact he's round means he is tiny. But it really doesn't hurt him when his moveset would give him unnaturally good reach using chomps, pellets and so forth. It's a good fit for Smash Bros.

 

[CyberWolfBia]

His size is actually a bit smaller than I thought, the fact he's round means he is tiny. But it really doesn't hurt him when his moveset would give him unnaturally good reach using chomps, pellets and so forth. It's a good fit for Smash Bros.

yeah, and attacks like the Flip Kick, and his punches, always modifies the size of his fists, legs and feet when he's doing the move..just like Mario; so, his size wouldn't matter too much for his reaches; but will be good for his hurtboxes, will be small. =)

 

[Deleted member]

yeah, and attacks like the Flip Kick, and his punches, always modifies the size of his fists, legs and feet when he's doing the move..just like Mario; so, his size wouldn't matter too much for his reaches; but will be good for his hurtboxes, will be small. =)

That's one of the reasons he's such a good shape for Smash Bros, he's very compact and at the same time, not awkward to hit because of his almost equal width versus height. It makes him a good target for attacks while not a big one, he's a small Bowser. It'd be fun to wail on him because of that, but like how Sonic rolling around in his ball form is a great dodger, Pac-Man can be easily be played in a way to avoid attacks.