Official Pac-Man's Amazing Full Colour Fan Club! - Pac-Man General Thread

[BSP]

There's almost too much stuff to learn with this guy.

 

[doyouknowbobby]

I have a dumb question about Z-Dropping related to Hydrants, trying to do a quick launch with the Key for maximum giggles.

Using default GCC inputs.

I down-B to drop Hydrant, then immediately try to drop the Key using the Z button, but every single time, I end up throwing the Key forward. I'm not touching the left stick. If I reverse the sequence and drop the Key with Z, then do down B to drop the Hydrant I'm successful, but the whole sequence feels a bit slower and less safe. If I put a jump in between them, its fine (Down-B, then X, then Z).

I'm doing this in 1/4 time in Training and I'm starting to lose my mind. Do I have to drop the Key before the Hydrant, or otherwise slip a jump (or maybe airdodge) in between?

Any help would be PACpreciated

 

[Nu~]

I have a dumb question about Z-Dropping related to Hydrants, trying to do a quick launch with the Key for maximum giggles.

Using default GCC inputs.

I down-B to drop Hydrant, then immediately try to drop the Key using the Z button, but every single time, I end up throwing the Key forward. I'm not touching the left stick. If I reverse the sequence and drop the Key with Z, then do down B to drop the Hydrant I'm successful, but the whole sequence feels a bit slower and less safe. If I put a jump in between them, its fine (Down-B, then X, then Z).

I'm doing this in 1/4 time in Training and I'm starting to lose my mind. Do I have to drop the Key before the Hydrant, or otherwise slip a jump (or maybe airdodge) in between?

Any help would be PACpreciated

Well that's the problem, you try to do it immediately. By doing that, you buffer an item toss. I suggest dropping the key first, then the hydrant. The key bounces for a while and retains its hitbox so the hydrant should be launched as soon as it's dropped.

 

[doyouknowbobby]

I've tried waiting as long as possible, doesn't seem to make a difference even after the Hydrant animation is over but I can't be sure its not an input error on my end.

I'll make a custom stage tonight with a high platform I can fall from and test it with a larger window. If it isn't possible, I'll go back to the previous method. I swear I've heard people on the board talk about it in either order, but I don't know that I've ever seen a YouTube video of hydrant being dropped first then Key without touching the ground in between.

Thanks for the response. Really love your input and activity on the Pac Boards.

 

[BSP]

I've tried waiting as long as possible, doesn't seem to make a difference even after the Hydrant animation is over but I can't be sure its not an input error on my end.

I'll make a custom stage tonight with a high platform I can fall from and test it with a larger window. If it isn't possible, I'll go back to the previous method. I swear I've heard people on the board talk about it in either order, but I don't know that I've ever seen a YouTube video of hydrant being dropped first then Key without touching the ground in between.

Thanks for the response. Really love your input and activity on the Pac Boards.

I don't know what the buffer window in this game is, but if you're pressing Z within whatever that window is (Brawl's was 10 frames, it's probably close to that), you're going to throw the key. You have to wait out the buffer window.

 

[doyouknowbobby]

Yeah, definitely got it going now. Thanks much.

 

[Funkermonster]

Stages worth picking and striking?

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Stages worth picking and striking?

I can't advise specific stages, but stages with slants, walls or other wacky stuff can help Pac's game.

Slants can make Hydrants roll, and allows fruit to be picked up, Walls can make hydrants bounce around and makes fruit easily accessible in hand.

So I dunno about blastlines and that stuff, but Halberd is niiiiiice.

 

[Jay-kun]

I play way too much. Too busy learning as much as I can in the lab.

um i dislike this post (give me a warning moderator!) maybe u should dedicate some days to learning new things

 

[Paper Maribro]

Stages worth picking and striking?

I'm gonna go with this stagelist because this is the maximum amount of legal stages we could see

Starters:

Battlefield
Smashville
Final Destination
Town and City
Lylat Cruise

Counterpicks:

Pokemon Stadium 2
Skyloft
Delfino
Wuhu Island
Kongo Jungle 64
Halberd
Duck Hunt
Castle Siege

For starters I would probably order it in this fashion from best to worst:

FD > Smashvile/Lylat > Smashville/Lylat > Town and City > Battlefield

Always ban battlefield, there are very few matchups where picking battlefield is smart. I like it for the mega man matchup and that probably about it. I also feel really uncomfortable going to Town and City. Lower roof means we can kinda kill a little earlier but there's not much else we get from this stage. Personally, I hate platforms as Pac. It screws up our Bell and Galaxian throws, our hydrant drops and z dropping too. Smashville and Lylat being better probably depends on the MU. We don't get gimped at all by Lylat unlike a lot of the cast and the tilt of the stage can do interesting things with the stage tilt. The big problem with lylat is the lower platforms, something you never ever want against a character like Rosalina. They are both a lot better than T&C and BF though, by a long stretch. FD is probably our best stage in general. It's flat so we can set up traps more easily and there's nowhere to hide from the traps either. We get a lot out of FD imo and should always be our go to starter or CP if people don't ban it.

In terms of CPs, including starters, I'd rate it something like this

FD > KJ 64 > Lylat Cruise/Smashville > Lylat Cruise/Smashville > Castle Siege > Duck Hunt > Halberd > Skyloft > Town and City > Wuhu Island > Battlefield > Delfino

KJ 64 has a massive dip in the centre of the stage that can lead to some hilarious hydrant hits, weird fruit bounces. Castle Siege's weird stage angles and stuff also leads to interesting fruit bounces and hydrant bounces. The walkoff section and our BThrow can lead to a rare early kill for Pac. Duck Hunt is basically FD but the massive Roof can make it problematic for killing with apples and up smash, two of our best killing options. Halberd can be pretty harsh on us. We can actually be gimped by the underside of the stage in certain situations, the low roof and our floatiness means we die quite early but the big dip in the middle of the stage can again lead to some hilarious hydrant bounces. The low roof also makes apple more potent so it's a bit of a trade off. Skyloft and below are all tough stages due to their heavily platformed nature. It makes the stage really difficult for Pac to just do his thing and I would never pick these stages and would always look at banning Delfino and BF.

I'm interested to hear what everyone else thinks about my stage analysis for Pac. Of course, a lot of comes down to playstyle, tastes and matchups, but this is a general rule of thumb for which stages are good and which stages should be avoided.

I haven't ranked PS2 because I have very little experience with playing on it.

 

[BSP]

I haven't thought about stages in depth, but if I plan to go Pac-Man all the way, I always strike and ban battlefield.

 

[fromundaman]

Yeah, BF is struck/banned forever for me.

For everything else, it depends on the character and player I am facing. For example I love Halberd for all the janky stuff we can do with fruits, but I would never take someone like Yoshi there and actually banned it against Yoshi in tournament today.

I am in the process of making a combo/setup video and have a lot of stage specific stuff in there (Though it may be a while until I release it; learning Vegas Pro as I make this and so far I have somewhere between 10-15 minutes of clips, not counting transitions and such.). In general though, slants are very good for us.


On a completely unrelated note, just made 2nd in a local (Lost to a Yoshi who I beat when we met again in loser's finals, and to a ZSS/Pika in Grand). In grand finals I was very close to resetting the bracket vs this Pikachu player, but when he switched to ZSS he started beating me. Any advance for how to deal with the ZSS MU? The issues I was having were:

-Utilt is incredibly good all around.
-DownB, how the hell do I deal with this move?
-Paralizer shots seem to stop fruits. Do any of them go through the the fully charged shots?

Thanks in advance!

 

[fromundaman]

Sorry for the double post, but wanted to share this:

Found a way (Some of you may already know it) to guarantee a key hit.
Anyway you guys have seen me talk about tumbling hydrant into a grab should they go to block the hydrant. Well obviously, a key also covers rolls in this scenario, and if they take to the air you can pressure the opponent fairly reliably with aerials or punish their landings with said key.
However there is one last thing they can do in this scenario to deal with the hydrant and that's throw out a move to clash with it. As you all know, both parties get momentarily stuck in their animation when they clash moves. Well, since they clash with the hydrant, you get no lag from this and can punish the opponent while they're in their clash animation with a key.

TL: DR version: You can punish someone for clashing with hydrant with a key toss.




_________

Oh, and apparently we can tech our hydrant? I was knocked into it by a kill move the other day and pressed shield a bit late, which led me to teching onto my hydrant. I'll try to recover the replay.

 

[BSP]

I'm so mad. I just had a brilliant match using side B vs. Rosalina and going for the timeout, but I forgot to save it. It's definitely a viable strategy.

 

[Jay-kun]

our hydrant acts as a temporary wall/wall with health. you can also stage-spike with it.

 

[Pacack]

I'm sad because notifications from this thread haven't shown up in my inbox for like months and I thought it was just dead.

How is everyone?

 

[Paper Maribro]

I'm sad because notifications from this thread haven't shown up in my inbox for like months and I thought it was just dead.

How is everyone?

Well for me there's this:

Myself and @skillskillfiretruck are gonna be entering doubles tournaments soon as a duo of Pacs.

We call ourselves

"Tupac"

Hopefully we can get some decent vids of two Pacs in action.

Also my first smash 4 tourney should be in the next couple of weeks. I'm aiming for top 3.

 

[BSP]

I'm sad because notifications from this thread haven't shown up in my inbox for like months and I thought it was just dead.

How is everyone?

Just training with this guy and handling school.

 

[fromundaman]

Finally learning how to use Vegas Pro and getting closer to finishing this combo/setup video I've been working on for what feels like forever.

Also been preparing for/playing in various tournaments.

Speaking of which, anyone going to Final Round?

 

[Nu~]

I'm sad because notifications from this thread haven't shown up in my inbox for like months and I thought it was just dead.

How is everyone?

I'm pretty cool.

Just juggling school, smash, and relationships.
It's like a roller coaster that won't end lol.
Hoping to enter some tourneys soon. I hate wifi so much XD

 

[Spirst]

Just thought I'd introduce myself rather than continue randomly poking around the other threads. Been using Pacman for the past few weeks and quite honestly, I'm having way too much fun with him and I'm pretty sure I'm going to co-main him alongside Greninja. The Pacman World series is great and I'm quite glad they took his design inspiration from that rather than The Ghostly Adventures.

Not one for lengthy introductions but yeah, expect to see me around a bit. Given that I'm a Smash 4 category mod, I'll also be able to help out around here when need be.

Also, relevant:

Spoiler

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Just thought I'd introduce myself rather than continue randomly poking around the other threads. Been using Pacman for the past few weeks and quite honestly, I'm having way too much fun with him and I'm pretty sure I'm going to co-main him alongside Greninja. The Pacman World series is great and I'm quite glad they took his design inspiration from that rather than The Ghostly Adventures.

Not one for lengthy introductions but yeah, expect to see me around a bit. Given that I'm a Smash 4 category mod, I'll also be able to help out around here when need be.

Also, relevant:

Spoiler

Welcome Spirst!

 

[Jay-kun]

I'm pretty cool.

Just juggling school, smash, and relationships.
It's like a roller coaster that won't end lol.
Hoping to enter some tourneys soon. I hate wifi so much XD

(all I saw was relationships.. ) anyway...don't u guys have smashers at ur schools?? I have smashers at mine but most of the good ppl play melee and criticize Smash 4 :/ bummer

Season 3 of Spice and Wolf? Show your love here: https://www.change.org/p/funimation...nce-to-help-create-season-3-of-spice-and-wolf

 

[BSP]

So guys,

We have Dthrow for damage
Bthrow to KO
Uthrow to get people into the air or KO at extreme %

Where does that leave F throw? I don't think the device team put in useless moves, so there's a reason Pac-Man has this throw.

Maybe it combos into key at specific %?

Maybe it's a nasty frame trap with Bell at the right %?

What do people use this throw for.

 

[Paper Maribro]

Alright guys so I have confirmation, my first ever smash 4 tourney is going to be this Sunday.

Any tips/advice/words of wisdom/good lucks/anything else you guys can think of would be appreciated.

I'm aiming for top 3, can probably make top 5.

 

[Nu~]

So guys,

We have Dthrow for damage
Bthrow to KO
Uthrow to get people into the air or KO at extreme %

Where does that leave F throw? I don't think the device team put in useless moves, so there's a reason Pac-Man has this throw.

Maybe it combos into key at specific %?

Maybe it's a nasty frame trap with Bell at the right %?

What do people use this throw for.

F throw combos into short hop key at higher percentages. Other than that, I use Side B to catch their air dodge if they expect a key.

Alright guys so I have confirmation, my first ever smash 4 tourney is going to be this Sunday.

Any tips/advice/words of wisdom/good lucks/anything else you guys can think of would be appreciated.

I'm aiming for top 3, can probably make top 5.

Just have a little more confidence in your character man! Lol
Get crazy and go for unpredictable things. Don't be afraid to try new tricks on the battlefield.

As for your playstyle, I notice that you jump and move around a lot, and I like it, but try to balance it with patience. I can get carried away with jumping and moving around as well, but you always have to remember to keep control of your character.

 

[Dre89]

Is it just me or does it seem like Pacmam is not fundamentals-orientated like other characters. He seems almost entirely trick-based.

 

[Jay-kun]

Is it just me or does it seem like Pacmam is not fundamentals-orientated like other characters. He seems almost entirely trick-based.

A little just you, Pacman like every character has fundamentalentils. Other than that I agree.

 

[fromundaman]

Pacman does have fundamentals, but also lots and lots of traps.


On a completely unrelated note, does Pacman have any way to punish ZSS for a DownB, either on read or reaction? I can't seem to punish this move even when I see it coming from a mile away.

 

[Nu~]

Pacman does have fundamentals, but also lots and lots of traps.


On a completely unrelated note, does Pacman have any way to punish ZSS for a DownB, either on read or reaction? I can't seem to punish this move even when I see it coming from a mile away.

Utilt is an invincible disjoint, I would try to use that. If you are in the air, I would throw out an uair FAST. That down B is quick, and you want to outrange it before it connects with your hurtbox.

 

[fromundaman]

Utilt is an invincible disjoint, I would try to use that. If you are in the air, I would throw out an uair FAST. That down B is quick, and you want to outrange it before it connects with your hurtbox.

An invincible disjoint you say? I did not know that. That could be the solution I was looking for. Not the hardest punish ever, but at least it's a punish. TY.

 

[BSP]

I'm convinced Sonic beats us pretty solidly after playing for a few days against my buddy who mains Sonic. He can punish anything we do that doesn't involve him getting hit immediately, we don't have time to set up stage control, and rage B throw is nuts. I'll probably go with a secondary in the future

Oh, he can outrun our grab beam and then promptly dash back in to Smash you in the face. It's awful.

 

[Nu~]

I'm convinced Sonic beats us pretty solidly after playing for a few days against my buddy who mains Sonic. He can punish anything we do that doesn't involve him getting immediately hit, we don't have time to set up stage control, and rage B throw is nuts. I'll probably go with a secondary in the future

Yeah, I know that feel man...On-Fire helps a bit, but even then he can spin dash through it (I'm actually convinced that he descively beats my secondary, mega man, as well, since he can freaking spin shot over the pellet wall. I don't care what the mega man thread says, no sonic should be spin dashing into you as an approach, and sonic doesn't care about mega man's projectiles)

Rosa & Sonic are the only problems I have with this game, and the only matchups that I can't handle well as Pac-Man.

I don't know why, but fox is always easy for me despite popular belief. He is easy to slow down due to his crappy approach options and horrid air speed, and loses to shield once you reach higher percentages (absolutely no kill throws, and he has to commit to everything. I feel that this matchup will become advantageous for us in the future)

Edit: hmm...can lazy fruit help in the sonic matchup? Stationary walls to halt his approaches and break momentum...I may have to test this

 

[Paper Maribro]

I'm convinced Sonic beats us pretty solidly after playing for a few days against my buddy who mains Sonic. He can punish anything we do that doesn't involve him getting hit immediately, we don't have time to set up stage control, and rage B throw is nuts. I'll probably go with a secondary in the future

Oh, he can outrun our grab beam and then promptly dash back in to Smash you in the face. It's awful.

I said this weeks ago and nobody listened to me.

Anyway, played some matches today against our top player and played quite well. Need to brush up on my stage selection I feel, but if I put in a perfect set, there is nothing stopping me from winning tomorrow.

Wish me luck, Pac Mains, I'm gonna do us proud.

 

[Nu~]

I said this weeks ago and nobody listened to me.

Anyway, played some matches today against our top player and played quite well. Need to brush up on my stage selection I feel, but if I put in a perfect set, there is nothing stopping me from winning tomorrow.

Wish me luck, Pac Mains, I'm gonna do us proud.

That's because you attached a 30:70 to it. You have to realize how rare those are, and it implies that we are completely helpless. No one agreed with you because of how much of an exaggeration it was.

We can still punish sonic hard, murder him when he is above us, and trampoline out of shield to halt spin dash. Not to mention that every one of our aerials are faster than his. We also have side B to win the trade with somic's soin dash.

It feels like a solid 40:60. It's just that matchups with sonic never feel easy. He's a frustrating character in general.
We are forced to work harder than sonic, but we can still win if we are patient enough. We just can't expect to camp him out(something I have been telling this entire board; we are not a camping character)
I have a feeling that Chef Pac has a lot less trouble in this matchup than Abadango...

Sonic is a character that feeds off of commitment, but Pac-Man doesn't have to commit until he wants to land the kill. Even then, there is a key or bell punish if sonic tries to get too offensive.


Regardless, I wish you good luck and hope the tourney goes well
Make us proud!

 

[Jay-kun]

That's because you attached a 30:70 to it. You have to realize how rare those are, and it implies that we are completely helpless. No one agreed with you because of how much of an exaggeration it was.

We can still punish sonic hard, murder him when he is above us, and trampoline out of shield to halt spin dash. Not to mention that every one of our aerials are faster than his. We also have side B to win the trade with somic's soin dash.

It feels like a solid 40:60. It's just that matchups with sonic never feel easy. He's a frustrating character in general.
We are forced to work harder than sonic, but we can still win if we are patient enough. We just can't expect to camp him out(something I have been telling this entire board; we are not a camping character)
I have a feeling that Chef Pac has a lot less trouble in this matchup than Abadango...

Sonic is a character that feeds off of commitment, but Pac-Man doesn't have to commit until he wants to land the kill. Even then, there is a key or bell punish if sonic tries to get too offensive.


Regardless, I wish you good luck and hope the tourney goes well
Make us proud!

Is there even a char with a 30:70?? 10:90????

 

[Nu~]

Is there even a char with a 30:70?? 10:90????

Outside of megaman vs meta knight
And dedede vs mega man (even these probably aren't that bad) I really don't think a 30:70 exists in this iteration of smash.
It was a big exaggeration fueled by the frustration of fighting that blue menace.

 

[Jay-kun]

Outside of megaman vs meta knight
And dedede vs mega man (even these probably aren't that bad) I really don't think a 30:70 exists in this iteration of smash.
It was a big exaggeration fueled by the frustration of fighting that blue menace.

I think i mentioned this before... could it be possible Mewtwo is our 2nd worst MU?

btw register ur games by March 31, 2015!!!!!!!!!!
http://club2.nintendo.com/smash-promo/

 

[BSP]

I said this weeks ago and nobody listened to me.

I agreed with Sonic beating us, but I didn't agree with your ratio. I hadn't played a good Sonic enough to think it was worthy of a 70:30. Now I'm having second thoughts. Everything you said is correct, he beats us worse than I though.

Good luck at the tournament.

That's because you attached a 30:70 to it. You have to realize how rare those are, and it implies that we are completely helpless. No one agreed with you because of how much of an exaggeration it was.

I think of 70:30 as out of a set of 10 matches, the character with the 70 should win 7 times, while the character with the 30 should win 3. It doesn't mean we're helpless, but it does convey that one character has a significant advantage in the MU.

We can still punish sonic hard,

How and when? In neutral, we can't cover all of Sonic's options properly. He's just too fast and our moves have enough commitment for him to punish.

Even when we land a hit, I find it difficult to keep pressure up. We aren't fast enough to cover him falling/airdodging in one direction and spring -> Dair in another direction, or he can retreat to the ledge and there isn't that much we can do. If he ever feels in danger on the ground, he can also just run away from us, and we don't have an answer.

murder him when he is above us

Like I said, I don't think we can cover all of his options to get out of the disadvantaged state. Once he's out of it, he obliterates us in neutral.

and trampoline out of shield to halt spin dash. Not to mention that every one of our aerials are faster than his. We also have side B to win the trade with somic's soin dash.

Do you mean before he spindashes at us, or when he's hitting our shield with the spindash? I haven't tried up B'ing when he hits my shield with it, but I'm not very confident it'll change much. I think Sonic is fast enough to punish our Up B on hit if he's at low enough %. God help us if we miss completely.

If we trampoline early to stop the spindash, he can jump out of the spin dash roll and homing attacks us, or make it to us before we can shield and grab or Nair for 12%, probably combo into something, and put us into the air.

As far as our aerials being faster, yes, they are. However, I don't see us getting much chance to use that fact because we can't keep Sonic in the disadvantage for long, if at all. Same thing applies when we're above him too, except he can cover all of our options.

If Sonic ever sees the side B pellet, all he has to do is shield and it is a guaranteed punish no matter what we do with it (Keep in mind he's got a 14% Bair...). Too risky to do IMO.

It feels like a solid 40:60. It's just that matchups with sonic never feel easy. He's a frustrating character in general.
We are forced to work harder than sonic, but we can still win if we are patient enough. We just can't expect to camp him out(something I have been telling this entire board; we are not a camping character)
I have a feeling that Chef Pac has a lot less trouble in this matchup than Abadango...

I'm starting to lean toward the 70:30 boat. We literally cannot handle Sonic in neutral, even if we go aggro.

In neutral, he can run at us and shield, and as long as he's not at point blank, we do not have an answer. Our only way to beat this option consistently is to run up and trampoline, which Sonic can react to and dodge, hit us, grab us, etc. Once Sonic starts mixing in rolls, sidesteps, running past you, stopping and charging a spin dash, etc., it gets to the point where we have to make a HARD READ to even hit the guy, and anything you throw out that misses can be punished hard.

When it takes hard reads just to land hits in neutral, it's going to be a tough ride. This is our biggest problem in the MU IMO. We can't consistently cover Sonic just running around us.

If we try to predict the shield and grab, Sonic can do anything besides sit there and then punish us for 20%+ or KO at higher %.

If we try to throw out tilts, they get shielded and Sonic grabs us or tilts/jabs us in response.

If we do any SH aerials, they get shielded and Sonic can punish all of them.

If we try to set trampolines to contain his ground movement before he's all over us, he can chase us down before we can shield. Then, we get grabbed or eat a combo for 20%+.

If we put down a hydrant, he can Fair us, run straight through it, and he can launch it pretty quickly. It doesn't help much at all.

If Sonic spindashes at us and hits our shield, he can mix us up to avoid punishment. He can homing attack, jump away, spring, fall, or whatever, point being that the punish isn't free.

Overall, Sonic's options just obliterate any form of a neutral game we have. I couldn't do anything to consistently beat or stop him from running around me while throwing in shields and rolls, which I could not punish unless I had a hard read in advance. Everything I missed got punished pretty hard.

Even if we try to go aggro, Sonic has a better jab than we do and better tilts. We still have the problem of up B being our only way to beat shield, and Sonic can easily punish when we miss, so he can put his shield up and rest pretty easy.

All of the fruits except key clank with spindash, right? They don't help much either, not that we will have much time to charge anyway. Oh wait, yes we will, when we're getting launched to the blastzones :\

Sonic is a character that feeds off of commitment, but Pac-Man doesn't have to commit until he wants to land the kill. Even then, there is a key or bell punish if sonic tries to get too offensive.

But to actually put any % on Sonic to begin with, we have to commit to something, and he has plenty of ways to punish whatever we commit to. To land a hit in the first place requires a hard read on our part anyway.

Landing the KO is the worst part. Since Pac-Man's throws don't KO till 160%, Sonic can put up his shield even more, and then KO us with a rage boosted Bthrow at 90%.

Keys do help, but good luck charging them, and if you miss, you start all over again. Once Sonic knows the MU, he can make it pretty difficult for Pac-Man. Like I said, I'm pulling out a second for this one. I didn't win a single match out of maybe 20 or so games, and I know the guy I was playing with isn't that much better than me. I did better with Captain Falcon, who I have less than 5 hours into.

@Brawlman1000 is the Sonic I play with BTW. I'll try to play with him again tonight and show why I think we get demolished. Paper Maribro may be right about Pac-Man scraping by on the MU inexperience.

When Brawlman and I first played, we went pretty even and I even got some two stocks in some games. Of course, he did too, but I felt like I could win each game. Next time, all of the Sonic vs. Pac-Man matches were closer. Last night, the third time, I don't think I won a single game of Sonic vs. Pac-Man. I got to the point where I was thinking "Wow. In order to even hit him in neutral, I have to make a hard read......." Not fun.

So Pac-Man has at least two 30:70 MUs IMO. I still like him, but that's a pretty big problem.

 

[Nu~]

I agreed with Sonic beating us, but I didn't agree with your ratio. I hadn't played a good Sonic enough to think it was worthy of a 70:30. Now I'm having second thoughts. Everything you said is correct, he beats us worse than I though.

Good luck at the tournament.



I think of 70:30 as out of a set of 10 matches, the character with the 70 should win 7 times, while the character with the 30 should win 3. It doesn't mean we're helpless, but it does convey that one character has a significant advantage in the MU.



How and when? In neutral, we can't cover all of Sonic's options properly. He's just too fast and our moves have enough commitment for him to punish.

Even when we land a hit, I find it difficult to keep pressure up. We aren't fast enough to cover him falling/airdodging in one direction and spring -> Dair in another direction, or he can retreat to the ledge and there isn't that much we can do. If he ever feels in danger on the ground, he can also just run away from us, and we don't have an answer.



Like I said, I don't think we can cover all of his options to get out of the disadvantaged state. Once he's out of it, he obliterates us in neutral.



Do you mean before he spindashes at us, or when he's hitting our shield with the spindash? I haven't tried up B'ing when he hits my shield with it, but I'm not very confident it'll change much. I think Sonic is fast enough to punish our Up B on hit if he's at low enough %. God help us if we miss completely.

If we trampoline early to stop the spindash, he can jump out of the spin dash roll and homing attacks us, or make it to us before we can shield and grab or Nair for 12%, probably combo into something, and put us into the air.

As far as our aerials being faster, yes, they are. However, I don't see us getting much chance to use that fact because we can't keep Sonic in the disadvantage for long, if at all. Same thing applies when we're above him too, except he can cover all of our options.

If Sonic ever sees the side B pellet, all he has to do is shield and it is a guaranteed punish no matter what we do with it (Keep in mind he's got a 14% Bair...). Too risky to do IMO.



I'm starting to lean toward the 70:30 boat. We literally cannot handle Sonic in neutral, even if we go aggro.

In neutral, he can run at us and shield, and as long as he's not at point blank, we do not have an answer. Our only way to beat this option consistently is to run up and trampoline, which Sonic can react to and dodge, hit us, grab us, etc. Once Sonic starts mixing in rolls, sidesteps, running past you, stopping and charging a spin dash, etc., it gets to the point where we have to make a HARD READ to even hit the guy, and anything you throw out that misses can be punished hard.

When it takes hard reads just to land hits in neutral, it's going to be a tough ride. This is our biggest problem in the MU IMO. We can't consistently cover Sonic just running around us.

If we try to predict the shield and grab, Sonic can do anything besides sit there and then punish us for 20%+ or KO at higher %.

If we try to throw out tilts, they get shielded and Sonic grabs us or tilts/jabs us in response.

If we do any SH aerials, they get shielded and Sonic can punish all of them.

If we try to set trampolines to contain his ground movement before he's all over us, he can chase us down before we can shield. Then, we get grabbed or eat a combo for 20%+.

If we put down a hydrant, he can Fair us, run straight through it, and he can launch it pretty quickly. It doesn't help much at all.

If Sonic spindashes at us and hits our shield, he can mix us up to avoid punishment. He can homing attack, jump away, spring, fall, or whatever, point being that the punish isn't free.

Overall, Sonic's options just obliterate any form of a neutral game we have. I couldn't do anything to consistently beat or stop him from running around me while throwing in shields and rolls, which I could not punish unless I had a hard read in advance. Everything I missed got punished pretty hard.

Even if we try to go aggro, Sonic has a better jab than we do and better tilts. We still have the problem of up B being our only way to beat shield, and Sonic can easily punish when we miss, so he can put his shield up and rest pretty easy.

All of the fruits except key clank with spindash, right? They don't help much either, not that we will have much time to charge anyway. Oh wait, yes we will, when we're getting launched to the blastzones :\



But to actually put any % on Sonic to begin with, we have to commit to something, and he has plenty of ways to punish whatever we commit to. To land a hit in the first place requires a hard read on our part anyway.

Landing the KO is the worst part. Since Pac-Man's throws don't KO till 160%, Sonic can put up his shield even more, and then KO us with a rage boosted Bthrow at 90%.

Keys do help, but good luck charging them, and if you miss, you start all over again. Once Sonic knows the MU, he can make it pretty difficult for Pac-Man. Like I said, I'm pulling out a second for this one. I didn't win a single match out of maybe 20 or so games, and I know the guy I was playing with isn't that much better than me. I did better with Captain Falcon, who I have less than 5 hours into.

@Brawlman1000 is the Sonic I play with BTW. I'll try to play with him again tonight and show why I think we get demolished. Paper Maribro may be right about Pac-Man scraping by on the MU inexperience.

When Brawlman and I first played, we went pretty even and I even got some two stocks in some games. Of course, he did too, but I felt like I could win each game. Next time, all of the Sonic vs. Pac-Man matches were closer. Last night, the third time, I don't think I won a single game of Sonic vs. Pac-Man. I got to the point where I was thinking "Wow. In order to even hit him in neutral, I have to make a hard read......." Not fun.

So Pac-Man has at least two 70:30 MUs IMO. I still like him, but that's a pretty big problem.

Yeah...this brought me back to my matches against the highest ranking sonic player on smash ladder, Boku. I felt like I had no control of the match, and I got timed out since she kept running around and avoiding everything I could dish out...I'm trying to stay optimistic, but it's hard considering there is a character that ignores everything that you want to do.
Wait...2 30:70's? Who's the second one? Rosa?
Even with the pellet healing trick? And I know that dire hydrant would be a godsend for that matchup.


Maybe, we should look towards customs for help.

1123 for rosa
Dire hydrant doesn't care about the GP and obliterates Luma, while power pac jump kills rosa pretty early.

3132 or 3133 for sonic
Lazy fruit gives us something to halt sonic's approaches, and they help us approach. Throwing an orange and walking behind it is safe, while galaxian laughs at any horizontal approach. I would stick to the orange though, because the galaxian may take a little while. Now we can take dire hydrant to give us a better way to combat spin dash, or on fire hydrant to deter approaches. Just beware that if sonic gets through the hydrant in time, the flames won't hit him before he can launch it away.

Let's use other options before we make anything definite.