Pac-Man Vs. : Matchup Discussion Thread- R.O.B. (Pac-MAN V.S Machine)

[BSP]

SNIP

Agree with all of this. Agree with what Tetz said as well, not much to add. 55:45 Yoshi favor because of higher damage per hit, meatier and faster hitboxes in general, plus a noticeable weight and living advantage.

Would be nice if we got some Yoshi players' opinions though.

 

[Nu~]

Alrighty, I'm putting the matchup 45:55 in yoshi's favor.
Now we will discuss the fox matchup until
2/28

Just a little tidbit before we begin: our utilt juggles fox until 28%, and it beats fox's dair and nair due to its 5 frame invincibility.

 

[Firedemon0]

A good Fox will wreck Pac-man's face hard. He is fast, not as much as Sonic, but still dangerously fast. A campy fox is not an issue for Pac-man, it is an aggressive one.

Offensively, Fox has the advantage on his attacks over Pac-man, better grab, better ground game, faster but still potent bair (seriously, auto cancel it a few times, it is ridiculous), superior dair as well. Pac-man has a better fair. They have equal nairs in my opinion. Specials wise, lasers work great to add damage when Pac-man is offstage, they also cancel side b, so a well placed shot and you can be gimped, you need to not be predictable with it. Fruit is much more versatile in this fight, properly using fruit will throw off reflector timing, just be mindful how often you use each fruit. Reflectors I have covered before, just be mindful of the max range of your fruit, and you can still spam them to zone. You must be mindful with hydrant, as it will come back up at you when reflected and follow the same trajectory when launched at Fox. He can safely gimp Trampoline recovery because of his recovery options, so you also need to avoid being predictable with them.

Pac-man cannot reasonably zone out an Offensive Fox, he can weave effectively through trampoline and hydrant spacing because of his ground+aerial speed, with his safe nair. He is able to very safely break hydrant without fear with nair > ftilt (similar to pacman) a fresh bair or down smash. He can also block an aerial hydrant with his up-air or reflector, or worse, reflector > Double Jump cancel on reflect > Uair, limiting it's combo breaker ability. Avoiding follow ups comes down more to airdodge or hydrant change ups.

Pac-man is not at a lost completely however, because of the nature of Fox's attacks, he is very susceptible to nair and fair combo breaking. He can up tilt > Up smash combo Fox at lower percents, but just about anyone can. His recovery, if predictable, is easily gimped (more on that shortly). A whiffed up-smash, while dangerous, can be punished easily with oos options, and tilts. He is easier to kill because of his weight. Pac-man can combo Fox easily because of his fall speed, but you do need to be mindful of nair, it comes out fast. Throw is super risky in this fight because running up smashes basically obliterate Pac-man. Pac-man can punish illusion pretty effectively if used too much with fruit. Fox can also catch some reflected fruit.

I wanted to go more in-depth about the kinds of recovery Fox is capable of Because fox illusion no longer causes special fall, he can use that, with his reflectors ability to stall, up b angles and wall jumps to avoid most of Pac-man's off stage options safely. He can avoid stage spikes because of Firefox's ability to recover underneath most stages. He can reflect and double jump out of reflector when you try to edge guard hydrant attempts, he can illusion through Pac-man, if he tries to offstage fair. While putting himself at risk can reflect oranges then illusion through follow ups. At the same time, if Fox insists on using Illusion to recovery on stage, he can be super easily gimped once he commits with orange, or Side B his landing on stage. You will close out stocks often in this fashion.

Overall I personally feel that Fox is our second toughest match-up. I would definitely put it at 60:40.

 

[Timbers]

*snip*

I'm with this guy.

To emphasize though, Pac's nair is great in this MU for breaking pressure. Fox lacks disjoints. At worst, you trade, and Pac nair puts on respectable damage and resets to neutral (usually).

You should always reset to ledge against Fox as well.

 

[BSP]

Everything Firedemon0 said is spot on. The only thing to add is that Fox has a guaranteed Usmash out of a jab (or is it double jab?) at KO percents.

Fox can weave between hydrants and trampoline with ease. You can't really rely on them for cover at all. Fox can launch it quickly too with high power on select moves coupled with his overall mobility.

Fox is the second character I'm most scared of when going Pac-Man. It's 60-40 Fox favor at best for Pac-Man.

 

[Firedemon0]

Everything Firedemon0 said is spot on. The only thing to add is that Fox has a guaranteed Usmash out of a jab (or is it double jab)?

Double jab, it isn't completely guaranteed, we can fair and trampoline out of it under 100%. For up-smash to connect above that, it has to also be the tip of the jabs, hard to space correctly.

 

[Po3T]

*Disclaimer, new to competitive smash. Forgive me for any misinformed information*

I haven'f face many Foxes but what I can deduce as far as this match up goes is (Piggy-backing off of @ Firedemon0 ), aggressive foxes are the worse. However, his ground illusion has quite a bit end lag and he can be punished easily. What I have seen from most Fox players I have face is SH illusion, then Dash attack. I typically try to Up B OoS at this point, but it comes out really fast and he ends up bouncing while I am in a hitstun from the dash attack. Other than careful fruit tossing and Up B OoS, I can't see many options as far as ending this match without getting Up smashed to oblivion. I'll say 60:30, we have our tools of survival in this match, so like always, playing smart can give us that Victory.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I know Yoshi discussion is over but just wanted to point out a few things that're wrong. I agree with Ratio for now only because Yoshi boards are dead and ones that're active tourney wise don't discuss much nor have played most characters yet since still kinda early in the game and everyone just picking the top tiers anyways. (diddy)

Yoshi has to commit pretty hard when approaching, excluding well spaced bairs. Each aerial has a counter attack in Pac-man's repertoire. Dair is countered with an OOS Nair. Fair can be shield grabbed, or also naired, depending on commitment. Nair can be out spaced and punished with fruit.

For this kinda MU, we have to commit hard when trying to land a kill. Which is the story of every single MU since Yoshi has no reliable kill setups, but only a few Match ups where approaching actually is a chore (diddy). Pac-man is not one of those.

We should never I repeat, never be using our incredibly laggy bair to space or scare people off on stage. Unless it was our old Brawl bair, then yes we use that.
Especially if you're referring to short hop. The landing lag on that almost rivals the airdodge lag for most characters in this game (19 for bair)

Dair cannot be countered by Nair OoS cause it destroys shields enough to eventually chip you for the last 2 or so hits. If you're saying a Yoshi is using short hop Dair on a flat stage with no platforms then you're playing bad Yoshi's.

Fair in a sense can be shield grabbed or naired... if we're not spacing it and just blindly approaching with it on a grounded character without going back. We have the aerial mobility to jump forward, fair, and whisk away in the opposite direction if the Yoshi knows how to properly space his aerial.
Nair we only use in CQC if both people are shielding, even then it's most likely a battle of who throws out the move first while in shield.
Both our Standing grabs are slow/bad, our nairs are on the same frame (3), but Yoshi can at least jab or Usmash faster. It becomes a mexican stand off, who pulls the trigger first if both just sitting in shield next to each other, who lets go first?
Whoever does most likely loses.

Other stuff I won't comment because that's delving into the actual MU instead of just moves, so will just say not all Yoshi's use eggs to recover anymore.
We mostly use it when high up from the stage to get back on since only limited to two actual jumps now, otherwise we like recovering low a bit more this time around since we're inconvenienced by the fact we have no actual upb that makes us auto snap to the ledge, so DJ'ing to the ledge snap is better in most circumstances.
Keep DJ armor in case you get hit maybe unless high knockback move (almost any Dsmash) and grab ledge.

Don't continue Yoshi discussion after this post. Just bringing up a few things regarding moves.

 

[Sinji]

My other bell tricks got destroyed after the recent update but I have another one. A great bell trick you can use to beat players that stall the ledge. I realized that the foot stool stun doesn't come into play until after the bell stun wears off. This means that this certain death. I did this when Yoshi was at 130%.

 

[Nu~]

Well...there goes another week of limited discussion. Man, I wish we had more Pac-Mains!

Oh well. I've put question marks next to both the ratios for yoshi and Fox since we didn't get enough discussion for either of them. We can revist them later, and consider customs now that they are confirmed.

As a placeholder, I'll put the Pac vs Fox matchup at 40:60 based on aforementioned reasons.

Actually, after we are done with the first 8 people, we will start from the top again, only with customs this time.

But as of now, we will discuss the matchup vs everyone's favorite simian...
Lanky Kong! Diddy Kong!

Discussion ends on 3/14
I know how much the opinion is split on this one.

 

[Jay-kun]

Ok first things first..how does Diddy eat?? I mean look ^^ above! He has no teeth!!!!!!!

 

[revengeska]

So I was just watching videos of Abadango earlier, a few vs Diddy. First thing that came to mind is that even top players like Keitaro and Aerolink counter-picked to other characters after losing game 1. This definitely underscores a discomfort of Diddy players in this matchup.

Now for actual Pac-man strategies, several things stuck out:

1. B-reversed fruits were a common thing. Pac-man would frequently run away and b-reverse bonus fruit a chasing Diddy.

2. Up b or short hop nair when Diddy got close. This also complements the next strategy...

3. Up b followed by dropping a hydrant, Pac-man is getting time to charge bonus fruit on the other side. The trampoline helps prevent Diddy from a ground approach to knock the hydrant at Pac-man.

4. Diddy's recovery is weak, and Pac-man is well equipped to deal damage in edgeguarding situations with bonus fruit and hydrant, as well as trampoline/fruit traps. Throwing a bell near the ledge towards a recovering Diddy, what is he supposed to do?

5. Banana combos well with bonus fruit. Hit with it and get a free combo into key on ground, or z-drop it to hydrant. Throwing out bananas are a dangerous game for Diddy to play.

This is still Diddy we're talking about. He's fast and can combo Pac-man a little easier than others due to being somewhat floaty in the air. He can't follow Pac-man up into the air for uair casually because of hydrant, but hoo-hahs are still especially dangerous and you do not want to get grabbed.

It's not necessarily an easy matchup, but if Pac-man plays it right he can really frustrate a Diddy player. I give the edge in the matchup to Pac-man, 60:40.

 

[Nu~]

Ok first things first..how does Diddy eat?? I mean look ^^ above! He has no teeth!!!!!!!

Who needs teeth when you devour smash player souls for a living?

But anywho, definitely a solid 60:40 for us. Trampoline makes diddy's grab game a lot harder and his air speed is so bad that jumping over the trampoline puts him in a really bad position.
Bananas can be covered by trampolines or hydrants, or can just be devoured by fruits and meatshielded by the hydrant. We destroy him offstage no doubt, and fruit make his horizontal based approach, very hard.
But still...this is diddy. If he gets in then you are in a world of hurt, and his CQC definitely beats us.
The nuetral game is pretty equal in this matchup thanks to our stage hazards, and we can hold onto advantage for a long time. Just don't let Diddy get momentum, and this matchup should be fine.

 

[Jay-kun]

So I was just watching videos of Abadango earlier, a few vs Diddy. First thing that came to mind is that even top players like Keitaro and Aerolink counter-picked to other characters after losing game 1. This definitely underscores a discomfort of Diddy players in this matchup.

Now for actual Pac-man strategies, several things stuck out:

1. B-reversed fruits were a common thing. Pac-man would frequently run away and b-reverse bonus fruit a chasing Diddy.

2. Up b or short hop nair when Diddy got close. This also complements the next strategy...

3. Up b followed by dropping a hydrant, Pac-man is getting time to charge bonus fruit on the other side. The trampoline helps prevent Diddy from a ground approach to knock the hydrant at Pac-man.

4. Diddy's recovery is weak, and Pac-man is well equipped to deal damage in edgeguarding situations with bonus fruit and hydrant, as well as trampoline/fruit traps. Throwing a bell near the ledge towards a recovering Diddy, what is he supposed to do?

5. Banana combos well with bonus fruit. Hit with it and get a free combo into key on ground, or z-drop it to hydrant. Throwing out bananas are a dangerous game for Diddy to play.

This is still Diddy we're talking about. He's fast and can combo Pac-man a little easier than others due to being somewhat floaty in the air. He can't follow Pac-man up into the air for uair casually because of hydrant, but hoo-hahs are still especially dangerous and you do not want to get grabbed.

It's not necessarily an easy matchup, but if Pac-man plays it right he can really frustrate a Diddy player. I give the edge in the matchup to Pac-man, 60:40.

WHOA that last part 60:40
Actually just by using ur post I would give a 55:45

Who needs teeth when you devour smash player souls for a living?

OHOHOHO I see what you did there....

















:/

 

[Po3T]

Me personally don't see Diddy as a "The New Metaknight" His Brawl counterpart was definitely better. Nonetheless, we can save that argument for another day. Now Diddy's speed is the main issue. Keeping him away with oranges and keys keeps him at bay. His recovery . . . . . well it kind of sucks but I believe it's just the vertical angle than the horizontal. Everything else seems to in our favor. I am going to say we have Diddy's number, at least to the point to have Diddy mains think twice. 55:45, mainly because his grab and speed.

 

[Jay-kun]

Me personally don't see Diddy as a "The New Metaknight" His Brawl counterpart was definitely better. Nonetheless, we can save that argument for another day. Now Diddy's speed is the main issue. Keeping him away with oranges and keys keeps him at bay. His recovery . . . . . well it kind of sucks but I believe it's just the vertical angle than the horizontal. Everything else seems to in our favor. I am going to say we have Diddy's number, at least to the point to have Diddy mains think twice. 55:45, mainly because his grab and speed.

I give it a 55:45, in PACMAN's favor.
-we have the projectiles,
-we can grab his banana and camp,
-our grab can mess up his run-in attempts,
-his smashes are all multi-hit, meaning that having a water-hydrant onstage is menacing,
-and we can gimp his recovery easily
I want to talk about default/ true hydrant..as said earlier, this can completely destroy a playstyle like Diddy's where combos are used all the time. Please think about this...

 

[Nu~]

I give it a 55:45, in PACMAN's favor.
-we have the projectiles,
-we can grab his banana and camp,
-our grab can mess up his run-in attempts,
-his smashes are all multi-hit, meaning that having a water-hydrant onstage is menacing,
-and we can gimp his recovery easily
I want to talk about default/ true hydrant..as said earlier, this can completely destroy a playstyle like Diddy's where combos are used all the time. Please think about this...

How do you give it a 55:45 with all of those advantages? Lol

 

[Po3T]

I give it a 55:45, in PACMAN's favor.
-we have the projectiles,
-we can grab his banana and camp,
-our grab can mess up his run-in attempts,
-his smashes are all multi-hit, meaning that having a water-hydrant onstage is menacing,
-and we can gimp his recovery easily
I want to talk about default/ true hydrant..as said earlier, this can completely destroy a playstyle like Diddy's where combos are used all the time. Please think about this...

How this was worded seems Pacman is 90:10

 

[Jay-kun]

eek. i was hoping i could be the pro-pacman and state all the pros in the MU... while u negative guys xD keep on spouting out the negativity lol
..was hoping it would balance out

.3.

 

[NimbusSpark]

The battle of Diddy is pretty much one that focuses on a tug-of-war on each of the characters own strengths. Pac's stage control, ability to gimp, projectiling and recovering generally surpass that of Diddy's, on the other hand, Diddy's overall approaching, ground speed, air ability, and ground game beats him.

Agreeing with Pacman9, I'd give the MU as a 60:40, in Pac-Man's favour. I personally see the Diddy MU for Pac as an act of playing 'keep-away'. If you take advantage of Pac's strengths then the battle shouldn't be too hard. If he manages to take advantage of a mistake you make then he's going to take you out with his combos and infamous 'Hoo-Hahs'.

 

[FullMoon]

Hey Pac-Mains, we in the Greninja boards are going to discuss the Pac-Man MU and we would appreciate any input from you guys: http://smashboards.com/threads/mast...t-game-watch-lucario-pac-man-3-9-3-16.369356/

Just remember that even though Greninja can turn into a ghost, no going wakka-wakka-wakka on us.

 

[revengeska]

I give it a 55:45, in PACMAN's favor.
-we have the projectiles,
-we can grab his banana and camp,
-our grab can mess up his run-in attempts,
-his smashes are all multi-hit, meaning that having a water-hydrant onstage is menacing,
-and we can gimp his recovery easily
I want to talk about default/ true hydrant..as said earlier, this can completely destroy a playstyle like Diddy's where combos are used all the time. Please think about this...

I do NOT recommend attempting to grab Diddy unless it's a hard read. You miss and you're going to be sorry. Especially on a run-in attempt, it's so easy to bait you into a grab attempt with footsies and then punish a whiffed grab by hoo-hahing you into oblivion. Not a good idea at all.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Wait what character is this about now Diddy?
BTW can I request the next set of characters? Some of the other characters matchup threads are seriously Inactive.

 

[Jay-kun]

I do NOT recommend attempting to grab Diddy unless it's a hard read. You miss and you're going to be sorry. Especially on a run-in attempt, it's so easy to bait you into a grab attempt with footsies and then punish a whiffed grab by hoo-hahing you into oblivion. Not a good idea at all.

Excuse you. I think we might have a difference in skill level if you cannot pull off a safe/ successful grab against Diddy Kong. NO offense is meant. I feel that that last sentence is unnecessary. Instead, we should give examples to show why we are right, and restrain from using our personal feelings in a "factual" "recommendation".

 

[COLINBG]

Slight advantage to Pacman.

He can easily outcamp Diddy with the Fruits, so Diddy is forced to approach.I know that's what Diddy is supposed to do in the first place, but that still means he won't be comfortable and have time to rest by going away, and the peanuts are not as effective as with other characters. He also has more difficulty approaching than he's used to, because the Hydrant combined witht the trampoline is such a strong barrier. He's kind of stuck at mid-distance, and neither of his options look too good if you manage to play well.

Of course, nobody is safe from the Hoohahs, but the threat of an Hydrant droping forces Diddy to play less recklessly.

Diddy has a hard time recovering, while Pac doesn't, so you should not be afraid to jump and try to gimp him. This is something you can do that he can't; use it to your advantage.

His banana is almost useless; the Hydrant can stop it, the water can stop it, and the Fruits can stop it. If you get your hand on it, it means a free Key, a free Bell, a free grab, or a free Smash, depending on what you want to do and the distance.

This does not mean we should take the MU for granted, Diddy is really dangerous up close for Pacman, so trying to zone him, playing defensively, and keeping him at a safe distance seems to be what works best.

I'd go for a 60:40


I have not played against a good Pacman as a Diddy, so I speak solely from a Pacman point of view. It would be nice to have a Diddy main express his views on the MU, because we might all be a little biased, and it's more informative when both sides give their opinion.

I'll post in the Diddy forum to see if we can get anyone to come here and post something. Are you fine with it?

So I was just watching videos of Abadango earlier, a few vs Diddy. First thing that came to mind is that even top players like Keitaro and Aerolink counter-picked to other characters after losing game 1. This definitely underscores a discomfort of Diddy players in this matchup.

This is speculation (on my part), but I can imagine why it's frustrating for a Diddy. Pacman just limits about every option they have. We force them to play more defensively, but it's not like thay have a choice. They just can't really play any other way against Pac. And let's say it, Pac can be annoying to play against. I personally enjoy it, but that's because I know how to and like to play as him, so I can better my own game. I know some people who don't enjoy it as much, though, because of the projectiles, the stage control he has, and his good recovery. So the ''annoying'' and unique nature of Pacman's gameplay, coupled with how it somewhat stops Diddy (by making him play slower) makes it a good MU for us.

Edit: I can see a disadvantage that I forgot to mention, in favor of Diddy. Because the MU (and Pac in general) is very stage control-oriented, once Diddy gains momentum it can become a lot harder for us. If the Diddy is in your face, you have no trampoline, no hydrant, and no fruit charged, it's difficult to come back, because you basically want the opposite at all time. So it's a good MU as long as we keep OUR momentum going, but it becomes fairly even, arguably worse, when we lose it. And Diddy is known to be good at keeping his momentum. So I think it's more close to a 55/45 Pac, or maybe even a 50/50, after reflexion.

I would like to hear y'all's opinions on this.

 

[Po3T]

Edit: I can see a disadvantage that I forgot to mention, in favor of Diddy. Because the MU (and Pac in general) is very stage control-oriented, once Diddy gains momentum it can become a lot harder for us. If the Diddy is in your face, you have no trampoline, no hydrant, and no fruit charged, it's difficult to come back, because you basically want the opposite at all time. So it's a good MU as long as we keep OUR momentum going, but it becomes fairly even, arguably worse, when we lose it. And Diddy is known to be good at keeping his momentum. So I think it's more close to a 55/45 Pac, or maybe even a 50/50, after reflexion.

I would like to hear y'all's opinions on this.

I must agree with you. The momentum gain is very critical in this match. This is definitely not the type of MU you want to carelessly drop a hydrant or openly charge fruit. As you have pointed out though, Diddy doesn't have a good off-stage game, that is definitely our ticket.

With that in mind, Diddys cannot just rush us like the others, Pac is like Anti-Rush. I still say the match is in our favor, however, we will need to mix it up. No "Common" Pac-gameplay in this MU

 

[COLINBG]

Are we doing Falcon or do you guys wish to continue the Diddy discussion? It seems like we're pretty much set on it, and it's the 15.

 

[Nu~]

Are we doing Falcon or do you guys wish to continue the Diddy discussion? It seems like we're pretty much set on it, and it's the 15.

Yeah, let's move on. I'll put this matchup as 60:40 our favor.

 

[COLINBG]

Okay. Falcon is like Diddy, but much worse. And I don't mean this in a good way, I mean he's worse for us to face. In fact, he's probably our worst MU in the game.

Every zoning character's weakness is getting rushed down, and Pacman is no exception. That being said, Falcon is the most rushdown oriented character in the game. I did not even start on why the MU is hard and what we can/cannot do, and it's already looking pretty bad.

Falcon is extremely fast, which means it's hard to keep him away. You can't run away. You won't have time to charge Fruits as you please and fool around. He's not as fast as Sonic, but Sonic usually either jumps after his approach, or retreats if he fails to connect a hit. Fox is fast, yes, but against Pac he should be playing using his reflector a lot (at a distance), and he's designed to be more of a ''punish things by being fast'' character, so even if he can play more agressively, it's still a Fox. Falcon is not like that, he's a ''go in and keep pressuring'' kind of character. You have to approach this MU with the same mindset you should have in doubles: every second is precious, so be productive.

Now, another pretty bad thing is that Falcon can spike reliably. The offstage play was one of our advantages against Diddy, but being offstage for too long is dangerous with Falcon. Try to get back to the ledge as soon as possible, even if this means you have to face Falcon. Also, whilst not ideal, Falcon's recovery is arguably better than Diddy, but it's still gimpable. If YOU are the one doing the edge guarding, you can go offstage if you keep it safe, but be wary of the UpB.

Falcon doesn't have a reflector (we would have been super ****ed, honestly), so use this to your advantage. If you have a moment, charge a fruit, he can't really do anything against them. Same goes for the Hydrants, don't hesitate to launch them, but it might be useful to keep them for the water, depending on the situation. The Trampoline is amazing, because it means he can't approach on the ground, abuse that. In this MU, your win condition is really going to be B moves spamming more than anything else.

Neutral air is great. It comes out really fast, so it can get you out of troublesome situations. If you feel like you are pressured too much in the air, this will be your go-to aerial due to it having a long-lasting hitbox all around. Even if our opinions differ on the utility of the move (you should check out and participate in this thread, if you haven't already), we can all agree that Fair is a nice spacing tool, and it's also a fast one, so it's also one of your most useful options here. On the ground, Ftilt is good, as well as Dtilt and Jab. Anything fast, really. Try to use less than usual the moves that have more ending lag. Remember: this MU is all about spacing properly, more than it is about doing damage.

Falcon is indeed great at pressuring people, but he still can't go in carelessly. Think of it as another type of Marth/Lucina; he has to approach safely. If he makes a mistake, your punish game has to be on point, and it's a good opportunity to gain momentum.
Comboing with stuff like Fruits (Cherry) and aerials (Fair) is an option. Pacman is quite versatile in his combos, so you can do a lot.

I know all I said is pessimistic (let's be honest, it is an hard MU), but that's also the mentality you need to have. Even if it isn't, you should be playing like your stock depends on it. Even at low percents, you should be playing like you cannot let him take an advantage by doing a mistake or an unsafe move.

Platforms don't really add anything since Falcon's Uair is so good, and it blocks your Hydrants/hinders your Fruits. Try to go Omega if you can.

Always move. There's no reason to stay in one place, it only makes Falcon's life easier. If he wants to hit you make him work for it.

I give this a 25:75 or a 30:70 Falcon, at the moment, but I hope we can somewhat push it up a bit by finding ways to deal with him. You can argue that since we're a zoning character, we have an advantage on Falcon (as we did with Diddy), but I personally have trouble with him. I hope everyone's not like that. After all, Pacman doesn't need a body because he bodies people. Let's keep this true.

I'll be doing more testing and research on my side to come up with concrete options, but I feel like we can get a good discussion going from what I've said.
These are two videos of somewhat high level matches of Pacmans against Falcons (I couldn't find more, which tells a lot about the MU), it's always good to watch to see what they do right and wrong:
/watch?v=c2S_tUI-Ax8
/watch?v=pzR7oTltzo8

 

[dragontamer]

PacMan's signature move vs Capt. Falcon is just FTilt.

Capt. Falcon's dashing options are stuffed with FTilt and Jabs. Play a strong grounded game, and don't do that dumb aerial stuff vs the Captain.

I've noted before how FAir has a touch of landing recovery frames, and decent players are beginning to really abuse that vulnerability time. Virtually every falling FAir allowed Capt. Falcon to just dash-grab that PacMan. Play a strong grounded game. Like a bad Marth. Walk around and FTilt and Jab, it actually forces Capt. Falcon to do stupid stuff.

At least force that Capt. Falcon player to dash-dance and do other footsie tricks. I mean, if Capt. Falcon is in a full-dash animation, he's committed to the run. So he's basically only got power-shield to win vs your FTilt.

Capt. Falcon's Side-B and Down-B kinda mess with your timing a bit, but I'm pretty sure with practice you can shield those and punish.

Capt. Falcon is so gimpable, I find it hard to believe we have a disadvantage against him. He's like the Sonic Matchup, except Capt. Falcon loses to our fruit and has significantly slower attacks everywhere... and loses to PacMan's melee options on the ground. At very least, Capt. Falcon is 10 to 20 points easier than Sonic.

Yeah, PacMan gets punished if he's constantly Fairing like a nutjob. That move is punishable.

IMO: Like 60:40 our advantage, if the Capt. doesn't switchup his dashins. Maybe 50:50 as Capt. Falcon players get better. The 2nd match is KoolAid though. I definitely respect his playstyle, so I'll watch that and then revise my opinion.

EDIT: 2nd Match is online Koolaid. Bah. Online lag screws with this game so much. I'm wondering if he's around and could tell me if the lag was decent on that match before I start reading into it...

 

[Nu~]

I still don't see how the captain is getting past the trampoline. He can't land with anything without getting punished by nair, or hell, another trampoline!
Not to mention, it ruins his down B and side B. Captain falcon is at the mercy of anyone below him, and we are in the unique position of being able to force him there whenever we want.

 

[COLINBG]

Damn I'm so bad at this.

I don't have access to a Wii U (the console + the game + a GC controller + a GC adapter is too expensive), so I play on 3DS. The lag is not too bad: it's sometimes unplayable, but otherwise it doesn't really affect how I play, but I simply can't do well on this MU.

I have trouble running and performing a Ftilt right away, I either end up doing a dash attack and get punished, or doing the Ftilt too late by fear of dash attacking and get punished too. When he's doing the approach, I admit it's a really good move, because it completely stops him. Cherry is fast, it does the same thing at a little more range. Jab is great too.

The trampoline seems to be working well, forcing them to stop their approach, so it's excellent in this MU. After doing a couple of matches against Falcons who know what they're doing (For Glory, but there's so many Falcons there that you can find good Falcons from time to time), the MU is easier than I thought, but I still can't seem to quite grasp what I have to do. I can stop their approches, but not all the time, and I can rack up damage, but I have trouble killing.

I would still say it's a disadvantage for Pac, but I might be wrong. I'm not the best one to give my opinion on this, because online 3DS. Still getting rekt though.

 

[dragontamer]

The lag is not too bad: it's sometimes unplayable

Unfortunately, if you've never played seriously in an "offline scene", it is difficult to show you just how much 10ms or 20ms can make a difference. Your eyes begin to see things that are completely impossible to see unless you've trained in that environment.

There is absolutely no online practice arena that is like offline play. Absolutely none at all.

I play online occasionally to keep my skills refreshed. I don't have the time to visit Xanadu every week (wtf, Tuesday. I got work yo...). Nonetheless, you really have to sit down and play offline for a good couple of days to see and feel the difference. Then you can go online and understand when lag is a factor.

I will say that speedy characters like Sonic, Capt. Falcon, and Greninja are much more powerful online than offline. Dash-grabs are much better online, because you can't react to them.

Offline, Capt. Falcon and everyone else will dash-grab you whenever you make a mistake. (IE: poorly spaced Fair outside the autocancel window). But it isn't as much of a braindead move as online play.

 

[COLINBG]

Unfortunately, if you've never played seriously in an "offline scene", it is difficult to show you just how much 10ms or 20ms can make a difference. Your eyes begin to see things that are completely impossible to see unless you've trained in that environment.

There is absolutely no online practice arena that is like offline play. Absolutely none at all.

I play online occasionally to keep my skills refreshed. I don't have the time to visit Xanadu every week (wtf, Tuesday. I got work yo...). Nonetheless, you really have to sit down and play offline for a good couple of days to see and feel the difference. Then you can go online and understand when lag is a factor.

Yeah, I played offline a couple of times, and I indeed see a difference.

But not having access to a Wii U regularly, and living in Montréal (Canada), where there's not a huge Smash 4 scene, and there's not too many tournaments that I can go to, I don't really have a choice. You learn to adapt to playing with a bit of input lag, and the game is somewhat similar, but I understand why it can be game-breaking in some (or a lot) of situations. One of the most noticable downsides is also the 3DS direction pad, and the lack of C-stick, which makes it hard to do some of the more advanced techs consistantly.

I do plan on getting a Wii U as soon as possible, but for now I have to gain my knowledge of the game by reading data, reading threads, watching a lot of videos and streams, and practicing in training mode, with the ocasional offline game. I'm aware my ideas are a bit off because of that, since the game plays somewhat differently, so I try to help as much as I can without being too misleading.

I will say that speedy characters like Sonic, Capt. Falcon, and Greninja are much more powerful online than offline. Dash-grabs are much better online, because you can't react to them.

Offline, Capt. Falcon and everyone else will dash-grab you whenever you make a mistake. (IE: poorly spaced Fair outside the autocancel window). But it isn't as much of a braindead move as online play.

That might partly explain why I have so much trouble with Cap, and why I gave him a bigger advantage than he really has. I'll definitely try to be more careful and think about just how much the online affects my play in the future before posting, thanks for making me realise that.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

FSmash, Kick and Raptor Boost are outright killed by Tramp.

I'm so bad at writing long stuff.

 

[Nu~]

FSmash, Kick and Raptor Boost are outright killed by Tramp.

I'm so bad at writing long stuff.

Bruh, you wrote an entire guide!

 

[BSP]

Unfortunately, if you've never played seriously in an "offline scene", it is difficult to show you just how much 10ms or 20ms can make a difference. .

Cosigning. I can say from experience that I need to stop playing online for a few days before a tournament because accounting for lag will cause me to make inputs too early compared to offline. Great example is teching flame choke and teching Sonic's Dthrow. Even in a seemingly great connection, the windows feel pretty different online and off.

Once you throw in the factor of playing Pac-Man, whose entire match can downhill very quickly off one mistake, you start realizing how significant lag can be.

That being said, take online exp. with a grain of salt. It's not useless by any means, but don't base everything off of it.

 

[Jay-kun]

my turn! ok i like it short and sweet here goes: knock falcon offstage we can hydrat him fo days. throw out a lot of grabs basically run and grab, usually my simply moving forward we can dodge his grab. also try dash attack spotdodging, its safe but not agaisnt raptor kick thing

 

[Reaper Talk]

Knock CF off stage -> Fire hydrant -> Galaxian -> Bair
Enough said
Although, I feel Captain Falcon can combo Pac Man easy
As long as we slow down his approach, he shouldn't be too hard to deal with
We do have to respect Captain Falcon's Dair and U-air

 

[Jay-kun]

Knock CF off stage -> Fire hydrant -> Galaxian -> Bair
Enough said
Although, I feel Captain Falcon can combo Pac Man easy
As long as we slow down his approach, he shouldn't be too hard to deal with
We do have to respect Captain Falcon's Dair and U-air

I HATE that he can jump so high and basically punish most of our aerial attempts. I'm very aerial oriented.. am trying to fix that.