Pac-Man Vs. : Matchup Discussion Thread- R.O.B. (Pac-MAN V.S Machine)

[Nu~]

Alright everyone. Shiek discussion is over! 50:50 seems to be the general concensus until further notice.

Now we move on to the yellow rodent who loves Up B...

Pikachu!!

 

[COLINBG]

Just to be sure, are we talking customs Pika in particular, not at all, or both Pikas?

 

[NimbusSpark]

*WARNING: All of the posts before this one created by me are pre-1.0.6, including this one. Read them at your own risk.*

Pikachu, or as he's more lesser known, Pokemon No. #25, is a bit of a mixed match-up for Pac. From what I stated on previous matchups that we've done, my answer has generally been resulting with Pac having the advantage from a longer distance because of his spacing ability and projectiling, but easily being able to get defeated in closer distances.

'Chu, in the other hand to most of the previous matchups, is actually a bit different. Whilst Pikachu can easily have his slower air-speed taken advantage of via trampolines thus making him more simple to space, he can actually somewhat hold his own in a longer distance. Pika's Thunder-Jolt clashes against Pac's non-'piercing' Bonus Fruit (Cherry to Melon, everything else can pass through projectiles), and is fast enough to be used again effortlessly.
In terms of close combat, Pika is faster, stronger, and can easily close the distance on an unprepared Pac, but lacks a ton of range, making Pac better off to fight off Pikachu in a medium distance, always trying to get the electric mouse away from attacking distance but not to the point bordering 'Thunder Jolt Spam' Territory. Oh, and don't forget that Pika has the same Spinning Wheel of Death N-Air that comes out in 3 Frames which Pac also has.

Another note that could be said that Pikachu is in fact harder to gimp than other characters just due to the raw unpredictability and speed of Quick Attack, and the ability to use Skull Bash for longer distances bordering close-to-KO Percentages. It's reccomended in terms of you recovering that you aim for the ledge as much as you can - being on the recieving end of edge-hogging Pikachu using Thunder is annoying. Take advantage of walled stages by 'Wall Climbing' using Power Pellet and wall jumping (which is something I assume not many Pac players actually know he can do, I think.) Being meteored by Pikachu isn't too big of a problem either - his D-Air comes out in around 14 frames.

The matchup could potentially be 55-45 in Pika's favour. Pika can somewhat negate Pac's strengths of projectiling and gimping, whilst being able to trump him in close quarters. Although, Pac, when used correctly, can manage to outspace Pikachu without too much trouble. I'm not sure what else I could add on this, but this was worth a shot trying to do.

 

[fromundaman]

I just noticed this thread and man, I don't know if I have the time or willpower to throw up the wall of texts I have on some of these MUs (Like Shiek and Pika... Seriously no one mentioned that UpB OoS kills all Shiek's Fair follow ups on shield?!).


Anyway like in the stage thread, I'm posting in here to remember it exists and come back to talk about Pikachu when I have more time.

There's no way this is in Pika's favor at all though.

 

[Nu~]

Thunder jolt helps us. We can drop down a hydrant to meat shield the hit then bair it. we can also use side B to heal 2%

 

[NimbusSpark]

Thunder jolt helps us. We can drop down a hydrant to meat shield the hit then bair it. we can also use side B to heal 2%

That's a good point. In complete honesty, I don't have too much knowledge about this match-up. I'm just happy to share what amount of information I have.
And his N-Air does come out in 3 Frames, the same time as Pacs, so you know.

 

[MachoCheeze]

Another thing that I've always found nice in this match up is that our crazy recovery cuts down Pikachu's main selling point: gimping.

 

[MegaBlaster1234]

A really unexpected and surprisingly effective way of gimping Pikachu is throwing a Melon while he's offstage and zig zag or U-turn around with Side B. It covers so much space and is very effective at scaring Pikachu into air dodging or messing up with Quick Attack. This works best when you've conditioned them into recovering low, and doing this will most likely force them to recover high.

 

[NimbusSpark]

I must note that recently an infinite combo for Pikachu's Thunder Wave has been found.
I'm not sure how this is 100% going to work against us, but we should at least combat against this more easily compared to others because of our hydrants and spacing ability.

It must also be noted that this can (obviously) only be done in a Custom Move enviroment.

 

[Nu~]

We really don't have a lot of discussion for this matchup do we...

I'm ready to move this on unless someone else has anything left to add?

 

[COLINBG]

Don't worry about the infinite.

1. Pikachu must Thunder Wave at a very punishable distance. If you shield he's in a bad position and he cannot simply get the combo going by hitting a Thunder Wave from anywhere.

2. He also has to give up his UpB for a worse version of it, which no Pikachu is going to do.

3. I haven't tried it, but the combo looks really hard to do (at least consistantly) because it requires a lot of precision.

I mean, yeah it's dangerous, but you almost never will face a Pikachu with these customs, and the combo is both hard to pull off and to keep going.

--------​

I haven't faced enough Pikachus with Pac to give a real opinion on the MU, so this is mostly theory:

1. Pikachu is good at gimping, but Pac has a good recovery, so it shouldn't be too much of a problem. Pac is good at gimping, but Pikachu has an even better recovery than us (in my opinion), so we won't be gimping him either. There's not much going on offstage. Maybe we can fruit or hydrant him from the stage, I guess?

2. We can block his projectiles; he can unreliably block ours. He has nothing to gain by staying far.

3. He can rack up a ton of damage really quickly at close range, we can't. Being too close is not good for us, and this is what he'll try to get.

4. We both have problems killing, and no gimping makes it even harder.

4. Trampoline OP.

5. Maybe 55-45 Pac. It's pretty equal. I can still see why Pac has an advantage, but I don't think it's that big.

--------
​

@ Nu~ Ready to move on. Also, will we re-do some characters because of the patch? Diddy plays a lot differently now, Sonic lost a kill move, and Sheik can't just abuse her Bair. The MUs don't change too much overall, but these are all things that make our life easier and change a little how we approach things. Maybe not doing a whole week (or 5 days or 17 or whatever it is now) on the characters, but just making quick adjustments. Or we could discuss that in the more general MU thread and incorporate it in the first post here.

EDIT: 200 posts, woot. I'm a Journeyman now.

 

[Nu~]

Alright, I'll put this 55:45 in our favor as a preliminary rank.

Next up is ZSS, or HOO HAA 2.0

 

[COLINBG]

Not only related to Pac, but learn to DI Dthrow -> Uair -> Uair -> UpB. Seriously, this combo is ridiculous. It kills at, like, 60%.

ZSS is more a "run around and punish/run around and throw out hitboxes to start combos" character than anything else. She's not supposed to approach like a Sheik or a Sonic. This means you wont be as pressured (yay) but you won't be safe at a mid distance. Just be wary of the dash attack; it's really fast so if she's at a mid distance she might throw it out and surprise you, leading to combos.

She has an amazing mobility and she will take advantage of that. This means she'll have an easier time not getting hit by fruits or hydrants at mid and far range.

ZSS has a great recover so she's harder to gimp. It's not as fast as Pika's, but still.

Her main kill options are going to be her smashes (which are fast, but you can punish), some aerials (why are you in the air?), and combos from Dthow. Again, learn to DI it. Her grab has a lot of endlag, so it's free damage if she misses (kinda like ours). Running directly towards you to get a grab is something a lot of ZSS players do when you're at kill percent, so try to act accordingly. She can also catch your landing with either a dash attack or a grab, then combo easily, so being in the air is not always the best idea. You have an hydrant though to help cover that.

Trampoline is useful.

How do our fruits interract with her blaster? I'm not too sure.

I'd say play safer than usual, because a good ZSS is everywhere and is menacing the whole stage. Still, I don't feel like it's too bad of a MU. Maybe 50/50. We don't really have anything going for us, but neither does she. Hope I'm not missing something huge.

 

[Nu~]

Biggest thing I struggle against in this matchup is the uair -> up B.
Learning to DI this really makes the matchup a lot easier.

ZSS's neutral is pretty bad, so take advantage of this with your traps and anti approach options.

PP absorbs the blaster shot.
Her recovery is good, but her down B can be gimped because it only has partial invincibility. She also can't approach us well because her only safe pokes are nair and bair. We can nair or trampoline OoS to punish her nair, and bair is easy to see coming because of how well it has to be spaced.

Play patiently, and harass her. DO NOT let her get momentum. Just like captain falcon, you have to stop her train before it begins. Pretty even to me

 

[BSP]

I played this MU with my buddy a good bit the other day. I'm thinking evenish or very slight ZSS favor at worst. My buddy leans towards even.

Handling down B: when ZSS down B's (Flip Jump) at you, jump at her and airdodge. This will force her to do the footstool animation regardless of whether or not she hit you, and the key thing about this animation is that she's locked into it. If she down B's from the ground and you force her into this animation, she can't do anything except drift until she hits the ground. Punish her. Otherwise, I'd steer clear of challenging that kick. It's pretty disjointed. Other than this, throwing out a meaty attack after the first third of her jump can usually hit her out of it. Do not let this move bully you, we can expose it. Don't sit in shield. Don't roll like a mad man. Challenge it early or jump at her and airdodge.

ZSS is agile with a great air game, but like @ Nu~ said (and I've seen Nairo say), she struggles to get things going from neutral. Like us, she has a pretty bad grab, so shielding is pretty effective. Unlike us, she doesn't have an Up B that beats shields, so don't be afraid to shield camp her a bit and punish her with up B. Not only that, but we can mess with her ground mobility game with hydrant and trampoline.

When she gets us into the air, she can dance around us effectively and space her aerials leaving us unable to challenge them. Use hydrant and airdodging smartly to get back to the ground. As Pacman9 said though, if she gets momentum, things can go badly. ~50% in two seconds badly, and that's the only reason I'd go slight ZSS favor (and uair -> up B being a real threat). Be careful.

From what I've read, the best way to DI boost kick is down and towards her. That move is nasty and will KO you at low %s, so try to avoid getting Uair combo'd into it if you can.

Another thing to consider vs. high mobility characters in general: don't start charging Fruit unless you've got room to do so. Yes, we can act out of it pretty quickly, but it still takes some time to do so.

 

[David Viran]

Just wanted to say both up b and uair uair to up b is a DI mix up so nothing is guaranteed for either player. Uair to up b is deadly and the mix up I would say is in zss's favor.

 

[Megamang]

Biggest thing I struggle against in this matchup is the uair -> up B.
Learning to DI this really makes the matchup a lot easier.

ZSS's neutral is pretty bad, so take advantage of this with your traps and anti approach options.

PP absorbs the blaster shot.
Her recovery is good, but her down B can be gimped because it only has partial invincibility. She also can't approach us well because her only safe pokes are nair and bair. We can nair or trampoline OoS to punish her nair, and bair is easy to see coming because of how well it has to be spaced.

Play patiently, and harass her. DO NOT let her get momentum. Just like captain falcon, you have to stop her train before it begins. Pretty even to me

I don't think you should be able to punish her nair at all if it is spaced, and this is with some leeway. It has like no land lag and decent range.

Keep in mind it hits behind her too, so don't get excited and think she messed up if she nairs facing away.

She does have to be facing away for bair, but a good zamus isn't going to just be facing away from you preparing for a bair. She will RAR it upon leaving the ground. This should also be spaced so she is safe. I'd be wary of punishing out of shield with trampoline, because you'd really be better off in neutral than above zamus.


Also, as far as pokes, you forgot about zair. Zair is a really long ranged poke with very low landing lag, which can confirm into a grab (I believe, either way its a common string).

 

[Nu~]

I don't think you should be able to punish her nair at all if it is spaced, and this is with some leeway. It has like no land lag and decent range.

Keep in mind it hits behind her too, so don't get excited and think she messed up if she nairs facing away.

She does have to be facing away for bair, but a good zamus isn't going to just be facing away from you preparing for a bair. She will RAR it upon leaving the ground. This should also be spaced so she is safe. I'd be wary of punishing out of shield with trampoline, because you'd really be better off in neutral than above zamus.


Also, as far as pokes, you forgot about zair. Zair is a really long ranged poke with very low landing lag, which can confirm into a grab (I believe, either way its a common string).

Nair approaches are close enough to us to be punished by an OoS trampoline, if she gets hit, we reach the ground after than her. No need to worry about her being above us. A RAR Bair is punished by Power Shield into dash attack.

In fact, something that I haven't noted is that ZSS's grab is too slow to punish our Dash Attack on shield. We can trampoline away before she can punish with Nair, so Dash Attack is a free approach for us.

Zair is an okay poke, but nothing game changing. It doesn't lead into a grab either.

 

[fromundaman]

Nair approaches are close enough to us to be punished by an OoS trampoline, if she gets hit, we reach the ground after than her. No need to worry about her being above us. A RAR Bair is punished by Power Shield into dash attack.

In fact, something that I haven't noted is that ZSS's grab is too slow to punish our Dash Attack on shield. We can trampoline away before she can punish with Nair, so Dash Attack is a free approach for us.

Zair is an okay poke, but nothing game changing. It doesn't lead into a grab either.

Actually a well spaced Nair will NOT get punished by trampoline or Nair OoS. However the spacing for it to be unpunishable is kind of strict, so throw off her spacing and you can punish her again.
So yeah, be aware of the spacing before trying to punish this, or you could end up screwing yourself.

Also most characters can jump OoS between any of the DA hits. I haven't tested it with ZSS, but I think if she knows about it she can probably get a free Bair OoS after a DA on shield (This is theory talk though as I have yet to test it).


Other stuff in no particular order:

-Her jab is retardedly fast and most ZSS' go-to option out of shield or even in a frametrap situation. On block though we can punish it, so bait it and kill it. If you are doing Fair mixups on shield, they will eventually try to wait then jab punish; Fair>Shield/trampoline can kill that option.

-Down B is punishable on shield by running forward then doing Fair>Nair. DON'T TRY TO CHALLENGE THIS MOVE! Just block and punish.

-Her spotdodge>Utilt/jab are very fast and effective options. If you see the ZSS player start to rely on it a lot, start trampolining on top of them to shut the entire spotdodge tactic down.

-As we probably all know, pellet kills the paralyzer shot. Just be wary of her following the slow shot to try and punish us for Side B'ing it.

-If you are shutting down her jabs and spotdodge options well enough, you will give ZSS the feeling of not having options when you are in on her. You are doing it right; keep the pressure on.

-If she's away from you, great, you get fruits, hydrant setups, etc. We beat her from full screen so she will need to approach, at the very least to mid distance. Mid distance is the only range where she actually beats us in the neutral, so don't let her stay in that range.

 

[David Viran]

Dash attack is not a free approach because oos up b is a thing.

 

[Megamang]

Dash attack is not a free approach because oos up b is a thing.

High risk/reward option for DA

For a lower risk option, you can just let your shield eat the DA, let Pac man trampoline... then you are below Pac Man, which is ideal for ZSS in pretty much every MU. I'm surprised that @ Nu~ calls that a free approach, since you end up at an advantageous situation when he trampolines.

Perhaps I am wrong, but I don't think Pac Man wants to be above ZSS. She is excellent at juggling AND punishing landings.

 

[David Viran]

It's not high risk if you know when up b when and won't hit.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

High risk/reward option for DA

For a lower risk option, you can just let your shield eat the DA, let Pac man trampoline... then you are below Pac Man, which is ideal for ZSS in pretty much every MU. I'm surprised that @ Nu~ calls that a free approach, since you end up at an advantageous situation when he trampolines.

Perhaps I am wrong, but I don't think Pac Man wants to be above ZSS. She is excellent at juggling AND punishing landings.

Trampoline eats through shields and jumps ZSS up too.

That said, we have Hydrants and Trampoline to cover landings.

 

[Megamang]

It's not high risk if you know when up b when and won't hit.

Nothing is high risk if you know itll hit, lol. Its high risk because if you whiff you will take a hard punish

Trampoline eats through shields and jumps ZSS up too.

That said, we have Hydrants and Trampoline to cover landings.

So we are in the air with Pac Man? That sounds perfect. Does it send them to the same height, at the same time?


As far as Hydrant: Like I said, I haven't played many PM players so I don't have much experience. Does the strong hitbox of ZSS's plasma whip send it flying at you? Because that might be a good answer to a dropped hydrant. (What determines if it goes flying, KB or damage?)

Trampoline just resets the situation, does it not?

 

[David Viran]

Nothing is high risk if you know itll hit, lol. Its high risk because if you whiff you will take a hard punish



So we are in the air with Pac Man? That sounds perfect. Does it send them to the same height, at the same time?


As far as Hydrant: Like I said, I haven't played many PM players so I don't have much experience. Does the strong hitbox of ZSS's plasma whip send it flying at you? Because that might be a good answer to a dropped hydrant. (What determines if it goes flying, KB or damage?)


Trampoline just resets the situation, does it not?

Just saying that it's possible to when you b will whiff and just not whiff it out of oos.

Also hydrant doesn't really help pacs landings because we can easily manuver around it.

 

[Nu~]

Nothing is high risk if you know itll hit, lol. Its high risk because if you whiff you will take a hard punish



So we are in the air with Pac Man? That sounds perfect. Does it send them to the same height, at the same time?


As far as Hydrant: Like I said, I haven't played many PM players so I don't have much experience. Does the strong hitbox of ZSS's plasma whip send it flying at you? Because that might be a good answer to a dropped hydrant. (What determines if it goes flying, KB or damage?)

Trampoline just resets the situation, does it not?

Yeah, I'm guessing that you definitely don't know what the trampoline does. You are still in hitstun while we move away. Plasma whip doesn't do enough damage to knock away the hydrant.

Just saying that it's possible to when you b will whiff and just not whiff it out of oos.

Also hydrant doesn't really help pacs landings because we can easily manuver around it.

And then we wait for you to commit to an attack, and we drop the hydrant through it.

My mistake for forgetting your OoS options

 

[Megamang]

Yeah, I'm guessing that you definitely don't know what the trampoline does. You are still in hitstun while we move away. Plasma whip doesn't do enough damage to knock away the hydrant.


And then we wait for you to commit to an attack, and we drop the hydrant through it.

I don't have a WiiU, so you are correct. I know little about the trampoline. So when you say hitstun, do you mean that I will be stuck in my shield from the DA until you are already going upwards? Or that if I drop my shield, i will get hit by the trampoline, and stunned, and you are above me? Or it launches me up and stuns me somehow?

And the hydrant is damage based? Whats the damage it takes to send it?



Yea, I definitely wouldn't come up directly below pacman and try and u-air for that reason. I would try and stay diagonally below, and jump and fair/bair when I sense an opening. Or just chase on the ground, no way your airspeed > ZSS's runspeed.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

I don't have a WiiU, so you are correct. I know little about the trampoline. So when you say hitstun, do you mean that I will be stuck in my shield from the DA until you are already going upwards? Or that if I drop my shield, i will get hit by the trampoline, and stunned, and you are above me? Or it launches me up and stuns me somehow?

And the hydrant is damage based? Whats the damage it takes to send it?



Yea, I definitely wouldn't come up directly below pacman and try and u-air for that reason. I would try and stay diagonally below, and jump and fair/bair when I sense an opening. Or just chase on the ground, no way your airspeed > ZSS's runspeed.

It takes 13% damage to launch the Hydrant.

 

[Nu~]

I don't have a WiiU, so you are correct. I know little about the trampoline. So when you say hitstun, do you mean that I will be stuck in my shield from the DA until you are already going upwards? Or that if I drop my shield, i will get hit by the trampoline, and stunned, and you are above me? Or it launches me up and stuns me somehow?

And the hydrant is damage based? Whats the damage it takes to send it?



Yea, I definitely wouldn't come up directly below pacman and try and u-air for that reason. I would try and stay diagonally below, and jump and fair/bair when I sense an opening. Or just chase on the ground, no way your airspeed > ZSS's runspeed.

The trampoline ignores rolls, shields, and grabs, so no matter what, you will get hit and suffer enough hitstun for us to touch the ground safely. It takes 13% to knock a hydrant over.

 

[David Viran]

Uair hits at angles around the hydrant.

 

[fromundaman]

I see being above ZSS the same way I see being above Rosa:

We don't want to be there because no one wants to be there. That said, we have better tools than most for dealing with the situation and getting back to the ground safely. Between hydrants, fruits with any sort of downward momentum, and our slew of aerial movement options, we have tools to avoid you, and worst case scenario we go to the ledge and go from there. Being on the ledge isn't great, but it's better than being juggled, and you guys don't exactly dominate the ledge (Although your ledge guard game isn't bad at all).

Also Hydrant pulls us up when we throw it, allowing us to use it to avoid moves and punish at the same time. Unless you are actively comboing us, Hydrant does a very good job of stopping your Uair. Might be hard to explain unless you've experienced it, but while your right about Uair's angle, it doesn't really matter because the hydrant pushes us back up out of it's range, whereas your aerial mobility makes you keep going into the hydrant.

If you are level with us, Fair will beat this though. From below I think the only thing to outright beat the hydrant is UpB though (Has to be spaced a certain way, but it can nullify the hydrant and keep going).


Honestly, your best bet when we're more than a FJ above you is to bait out the hydrant, then pressure like mad once it's down. If that hydrant is down, then we are sitting ducks in the air. Also if you KNOW we're going to throw a hydrant, UpBing through it is a solid way to secure a stock. That said this is high risk/reward, so beware. If you read that wrong you're eating a Usmash.


Conversely, Pacman players, don't let your hydrant sit around on stage long in this MU: You will need it if you end up in the air.

 

[David Viran]

I have faced pac man in tournaments before. If I recall when I uaired and hit hydrant as it came down it just didn't even hit me when the moves collided. I didn't even have to be below him to pressure the crap out of him in the air when he has the hydrant. If you are aware that he goes up a bit when using hydrant you shouldn't flat out miss uair.

 

[fromundaman]

Hmmm... Okay. I've faced a number of ZSS players as well but I am pretty sure I knew the MU bbetter than they did. Maybe if they were more aware of how the move worked they would have beaten it then; good to know, thank you.

Going back to the ledge sounds like a good idea if hydrant starts getting beat out then.

 

[Nu~]

What's to stop us from DI'ing inward and using Nair to trade with it?

 

[David Viran]

What's to stop us from DI'ing inward and using Nair to trade with it?

Hit stun.

 

[Megamang]

What's to stop us from DI'ing inward and using Nair to trade with it?

Hit stun.

And range, and if the ZSS predicts that you will eat a worse punish. And that prediction isn't that unusual since most of our matchups involve frequent trappings in the air.

Not saying you are definitely trapped or can't win on a mixup, but its certainly a common and comfortable position that ZSS strives for. It appears Pac Man doesn't suffer as badly as most though.

However, we have been theorycrafting in a vacuum. What if we are at battlefield, and you are above, and I simply space to u-air through whatever platform you are approaching? Your hydrant is gonna land on the platform harmlessly, right? Theres no way to make it fall through, or am I missing something?

 

[Nu~]

And range, and if the ZSS predicts that you will eat a worse punish. And that prediction isn't that unusual since most of our matchups involve frequent trappings in the air.

Not saying you are definitely trapped or can't win on a mixup, but its certainly a common and comfortable position that ZSS strives for. It appears Pac Man doesn't suffer as badly as most though.

However, we have been theorycrafting in a vacuum. What if we are at battlefield, and you are above, and I simply space to u-air through whatever platform you are approaching? Your hydrant is gonna land on the platform harmlessly, right? Theres no way to make it fall through, or am I missing something?

http://youtu.be/tAxeke1LC6g

 

[Megamang]

http://youtu.be/tAxeke1LC6g

Interesting. Do you have to fair, or is that simply for timing? Cause the fair that close is easily punishable.

 

[Nu~]

Interesting. Do you have to fair, or is that simply for timing? Cause the fair that close is easily punishable.

Just for timing, otherwise it's kind of hard. It's hard to punish the Fair anyways because of its IASA frames.

 

[fromundaman]

I knew that someone was going to link that XD

That is a gimmick, even for us, and not going to help us land safely considering how close to the ground we have to be to make it work. It's best use is honestly to murder someone trying to go under the stage.

@ Megamang you are absolutely right; on Battlefield the platforms do hinder our options a lot. That said, in a tournament set, every and all Pacman players should be perma-banning that stage, especially against ZSS (And if they don't; well enjoy your free win).