Pac-Man Custom Moveset Discussion

[Nu~]

I admit Pacman does loose versatility without the Hydrant. Playing dire hydrant requires you to rethink a lot of your approach to the character.

Personally I do not find the default Hydrant to be that good, it is entirely gimmicky in my opinion and will not be effective against opponents who are well experienced against Pacman(to be fair a lot of people aren’t) they’re not just going to just stand there and let you drop a hydrant on top of them, or key throw launch it into them or gush dash grab or upsmash them. It becomes entirely situational and lucky for you to get good damage from it against a sensible opponent and if you’re someone like me who doesn’t think it’s worth to trade almost your entire moveset for the ability to item drop and throw your fruits in multiple directions then really how useful is the default hydrant(I concede the on-fire hydrant is likely a better custom. I think you are overrating how great the default hydrant is against an intelligent opponent(one who knows when the water blasts out, and what attacks launch it within a single strike)

What you get instead is a Pacman who is deceptively powerful in neutral. I don’t think you can appreciate how strong the up b down b defensive mix up is until you’ve mastered it and then implemented it. Once you’ve counter hit your opponent with both attacks enough times the amount of respect they’re forced to give your shield and your character in general is incredible.

Comparing the dire hydrant to the default hydrant, instead of baiting and spacing you’re instead actually fighting in neutral. That's the dire hydrant is the custom you'd prefer if thats your play style.




I really believe(like I was before) that you think this way because you really haven’t learned how to fight without centering your game around the hydrant. We all need to remember that against higher level opponents(particularly people who actually understand the Pacman matchup) the Hydrant becomes less useful, see my above response to Pacman9 about that.

Also you have it wrong about the juggling , it increases your anti-juggling ability not decreases it, if your opponent is getting hit by the hydrant below where the Dire Hydarant explodes, then he is one of those idiots who don’t know how to play against Pacman(and they’re a lot of them) who I’m referred to earlier, and we shouldn’t be planning our custom sets against them.

I understand that the default hydrant will be found out in the future, but do you also think that we won't advance our meta to adapt to that?
Change over time affects everyone, and I believe that we can adapt to our opponent's knowledge.

For example, we are currently making bell traps with the hydrant water.
@ fromundaman has tested them to make sure that they are guaranteed even against competent opponents.

Throw bell down-> hydrant water pushes it and you-> react to opponent's reaction

If they try to attack you, the bell gets them. If the block, we grab or trampoline. If they jump, F-air catches them and pushes them back into the bell. Rolls are either caught by the bell, or punished by a down smash.

Not everything about the hydrant is gimmicky, and there are traps with it that can really mess up the opponent.

Hydrant drop-> key is a kill confirm

You don't even have to launch it 24/7.
I advise to use it as bait. If the opponent hits it, punish. If they leave it alone, charge your fruit. It can make space for us.
Even if they know that we can do these things, they can't always defend against them.

Yes, launching it like a madman or hoping that your opponent doesn't punish your hydrant gushed dash grab is silly and gimmicky, but don't dismiss the hydrant entirely.
There is still so much that it has to offer.

 

[fromundaman]

I'm not going to say custom hydrants are bad, but giving up fruit gushing is giving up a LOT of traps/setups/options.

I don't have time to go into a long explanation right now, but I would suggest thinking very hard about what you need for both your playsstyle
e and the matchup before giving up one of the most versatile moves in this game.

 

[Banjobeast158]

Quick question, i play Pac-Man pretty aggressively and i do well. I was wondering if it is better to go defensively in general like with traps/camp play style. What has worked best for you and how do you think Pac-Man should be played?

 

[Nu~]

Quick question, i play Pac-Man pretty aggressively and i do well. I was wondering if it is better to go defensively in general like with traps/camp play style. What has worked best for you and how do you think Pac-Man should be played?

Play however you want.
Pac-Man can excel in defensive or offensive

 

[fromundaman]

Depends on the matchup IMO. Some require aggressive play while others need defensiveness. Traps can and should be used with both styles though.

 

[Froggy]

I have been testing the custom moves very extensively. Dire Hydrant is a horrible move. It doesn't kill, has a max fall distance. It doesn't protect you from attacks. The explosion does less then both hydrants when dropped. It does not stall in air. It passes through people. Wario cannot be forced to eat it, Rosalina doesn't care for it. It does nothing to really disrupt the opponents gameplan at all honestly. It's lag also forces you to land if used on the ground.

I would rather implement enticing pellet for some form of wind box shenanigans before I would consider dire hydrant sets. It is more disruptive because Customs on is wind box central.

Wrong, wrong and wong.

It having a max fall distance in and of itself is not a bad thing because means you can use it multiple time as counter anti-air(I explained before how it's a better anti air than the other two, go read my posts). The dire hydrant does the same as both hydrant(more than the on-fire hydrant iirc) it's only the knock back that is weaker. Keeping in mind the point of that move is not to ko opponents, and if you were KOing opponents using the other hydrant on drop then you're playing an inefficient Pacman.

It does stall in the air, idk wtf you're talking about, it stalls more so than the other hydrants since Pacman is dropped higher into the air. And it disrupts your opponents playstyle plenty when it hits them. You should really try out the Dire Hydrant in the method I described earlier before knocking it, it does requires you to not be a ***** and thinking you must hide behind your hydrant for protection though.

I understand that the default hydrant will be found out in the future, but do you also think that we won't advance our meta to adapt to that?
Change over time affects everyone, and I believe that we can adapt to our opponent's knowledge.

For example, we are currently making bell traps with the hydrant water.
@ fromundaman has tested them to make sure that they are guaranteed even against competent opponents.

Throw bell down-> hydrant water pushes it and you-> react to opponent's reaction

If they try to attack you, the bell gets them. If the block, we grab or trampoline. If they jump, F-air catches them and pushes them back into the bell. Rolls are either caught by the bell, or punished by a down smash.

Not everything about the hydrant is gimmicky, and there are traps with it that can really mess up the opponent.

Hydrant drop-> key is a kill confirm

You don't even have to launch it 24/7.
I advise to use it as bait. If the opponent hits it, punish. If they leave it alone, charge your fruit. It can make space for us.
Even if they know that we can do these things, they can't always defend against them.

Yes, launching it like a madman or hoping that your opponent doesn't punish your hydrant gushed dash grab is silly and gimmicky, but don't dismiss the hydrant entirely.
There is still so much that it has to offer.

Other than that, you have convinced me that dire hydrant is a good choice.

I am not saying that the default Hydrant is useless move. I’m just saying that this idea that it is the most versatile, all-encompassing useful tool that covers spacing, killing, defense all in one is very misdirected. Against stronger opponents who understand how the move and the character works the default hydrant loses a lot of it’s utility.

With that being said, the Dire Hydrant is a completely different move. If you are a Pacman player who does not like the spacing, trapping, fruit dropping game, and instead just like a strong neutral, counter defensive, street fight type of game then the Dire Hydrant IS THE BETTER CUSTOM. And It may seem odd to you, that someone may not like the type of game the 1 and 2 hydrants give, but keep mind that the majority of other characters do not have an on stage object which exists to slow the game down, as stated over and over again it is very unique, so it should be common sense that a lot of players will not prefer that kind of playstyle.

Edit: Please do keep in mind that ot use the hydrant effectively it does simultaneously slow-down and complicate the game. That isn't always the optimal playstyle for some player and some match ups.

 

[Firedemon0]

Wrong, wrong and wong.

It having a max fall distance in and of itself is not a bad thing because means you can use it multiple time as counter anti-air(I explained before how it's a better anti air than the other two, go read my posts). The dire hydrant does the same as both hydrant(more than the on-fire hydrant iirc) it's only the knock back that is weaker. Keeping in mind the point of that move is not to ko opponents, and if you were KOing opponents using the other hydrant on drop then you're playing an inefficient Pacman.
It does stall in the air, idk wtf you're talking about, it stalls more so than the other hydrants since Pacman is dropped higher into the air. And it disrupts your opponents playstyle plenty when it hits them. You should really try out the Dire Hydrant in the method I described earlier before knocking it, it does requires you to not be a ***** and thinking you must hide behind your protection though.


I am not saying that the default Hydrant is useless move. I’m just saying that this idea that it is the most versatile, all-encompassing useful tool that covers spacing, killing, defense all in one is very misdirected. Against stronger opponents who understand how the move and the character works the default hydrant loses a lot of it’s utility.

With that being said, the Dire Hydrant is a completely different move. If you are a Pacman player who does not like the spacing, trapping, fruit dropping game, and instead just like a strong neutral, counter defensive, street fight type of game then the Dire Hydrant IS THE BETTER CUSTOM. And It may seem odd to you, that someone may not like the type of game the 1 and 2 hydrants give, but keep mind that the majority of other characters do not have an on stage object which exists to slow the game down, as stated over and over again it is very unique, so it should be common sense that a lot of players will not prefer that kind of playstyle.

Edit: Please do keep in mind that ot use the hydrant effectively it does simultaneously slow-down and complicate the game. That isn't always the optimal playstyle for some player and some match ups.

I am sorry but your condensing tone is really insulting and getting a bit grating. If you saw videos of my playstyle, you would see I am a more aggressive pac-man player. To a fault even. I never indicated dropping hydrant as a kill move, You can knock hydrant into people to kill them, pretty effectively too.

If you use Dire hydrant as a way to avoid to a move on the ground, you fall right to where a hydrant would be to soak that hit. Hydrant dodging is a thing, Dire hydrant is horrible at that. It does not stall, you do not gain height from it, you keep falling. Just watching ninjalink's video on the custom moves, he shows that. You posts indicate that the other hydrants are somehow inferior in high level play, yet Koolaid and Abadango both, use water gushing and launches to secure kills and setups. Dire hydrant is ridiculously binary. You have to be right on someone, or above them, that is it, you have no options outside of that. It does not have any zoning options.

You use Dire hydrant on shield, you will be grabbed, because you will not be on top of a hydrant to avoid it, and the lag does not allow anything else. If you use Dire Hydrant in air, you should not be using it twice, that is allowing yourself to be punished aerially for longer. You go for the ledge, or behind them, not use it again. It is not effective, or help your board state. You are critically hindering yourself without the other hydrants. Water allows for fruit and movement options, and Onfire is so much better at shield pressure. Your only strength so far in your argument, is the ability for Dire to be used multiple times in air, at a max set distance mind you, which you should not be in a position to do so. PPJ is stronger for combos then dire hydrant is and is more akin to a shoryuken combo finisher for damage if you want to make a SF comparison.

I refuse to agree with you without video evidence, this move has been inferior in all my use of it.

 

[Banjobeast158]

this is totally irrelevant, but on-fire hydrant is just plain fun to use. I'm not sure about its advantages, but it is just such a blast to use lol

 

[Froggy]

I am sorry but your condensing tone is really insulting and getting a bit grating. If you saw videos of my playstyle, you would see I am a more aggressive pac-man player. To a fault even. I never indicated dropping hydrant as a kill move, You can knock hydrant into people to kill them, pretty effectively too.

If you use Dire hydrant as a way to avoid to a move on the ground, you fall right to where a hydrant would be to soak that hit. Hydrant dodging is a thing, Dire hydrant is horrible at that. It does not stall, you do not gain height from it, you keep falling. Just watching ninjalink's video on the custom moves, he shows that. You posts indicate that the other hydrants are somehow inferior in high level play, yet Koolaid and Abadango both, use water gushing and launches to secure kills and setups. Dire hydrant is ridiculously binary. You have to be right on someone, or above them, that is it, you have no options outside of that. It does not have any zoning options.

You use Dire hydrant on shield, you will be grabbed, because you will not be on top of a hydrant to avoid it, and the lag does not allow anything else. If you use Dire Hydrant in air, you should not be using it twice, that is allowing yourself to be punished aerially for longer. You go for the ledge, or behind them, not use it again. It is not effective, or help your board state. You are critically hindering yourself without the other hydrants. Water allows for fruit and movement options, and Onfire is so much better at shield pressure. Your only strength so far in your argument, is the ability for Dire to be used multiple times in air, at a max set distance mind you, which you should not be in a position to do so. PPJ is stronger for combos then dire hydrant is and is more akin to a shoryuken combo finisher for damage if you want to make a SF comparison.

I refuse to agree with you without video evidence, this move has been inferior in all my use of it.

Dire Hydant has no or vitually no recovery once you've landed on the ground, and while rarely do you land quickly enough to punish the recovery on thier whif, it's even rarer that they'll recover in time to punish after you've landed, none of which should matter because if they whiffed a move under your Dire Hydrant then they should almost certainly get hit.

Hydrant dodging is not a good thing, if your opponents attack has aything resembling a wide hitbox then you'll get punished it for it, similarly if the move hits low enough to avoid Pacman but is strong enough to blow away the hydrant then you'll eat the damage form both the hydrant plus your opponents attack. It's just not a good technique.

To make something clear I've never idicated the Dire Hydrant is superior to the other Hydrants, just that it serves a vey different purpose and should be included in the customs. The two top Pacman mains using other customs don't mean anything, hell I don't think they even prefer the same custom set, this is assuming they're using rules that even allow the Dire Hyrant, since it's not included in the evo set and many circuits are following the evo set. W/E

I agree that using the dire hydrant twice in the air is not optimal, it's just another mix up to use instead of: air dodging, double jumping, nairing, etc, which will not be afforded to you if you're using any of the other hydrant customs, and yes there are situations when it is the optimal option. And again read my posts, my only argument for using the Dire Hydrant is not using it twice in the air(hell that was a very minor counter point); moreover water movement options are much less effective at a highler level of play and having a fruit in your hand is NOT always better than having it in your neutral B(hello, you lose your entire A moveset)

Idk what you're talking about combo finishers for since that's not the point of the Dire Hydrant, it's primary purpose is as another defensive option along with the UP B out of shield. As I'm writing this I'm realzing it'll be kinda essential in custom sets where you have PPJ since that custom doesn't offer much defensive utility. I'll state again that the Dire Hydrant is best used akin to an instant dive kick from street fighter, it removes your hitbox while simultanously punishing frame traps and grabs. Try using it like that beore knocking it.

As for needing video evidence I can't blame you for that. I'll be going to the Chocolate factory next wednsday and using this Custom. I'll record all my matches and hopefully it'll be a good show case for how usefully it is.

 

[Neutricity]

Can you ever not come off haughty and derogatory?

Dire hydrant is bad because it lacks a beneficial purpose. We throw away stage control for...what? A "meh" sized hitbox that can't kill and is unsafe on shield?

Back when we first discussed these sets, I personally looked into dire hydrant for potential, and found nothing notable in theory or practice.

Please tell me why we should use it.



If you tell us why it isn't optimal and how top players are "playing around it",
Maybe we can help

Heh, I'll tell you why.
The dodge it, jab it, and grab it because it is slow and weak. Giving from Bonus Fruit for Lazy Fruit is not worth it in my opinion.

 

[Nu~]

Heh, I'll tell you why.
The dodge it, jab it, and grab it because it is slow and weak. Giving from Bonus Fruit for Lazy Fruit is not worth it in my opinion.

Well then that's it. You're trying to zone with it, when you should be using it for set ups and rush down.

I believe @ Firedemon0 said it pretty well before

Just by the slowness and generally short range compared to the other fruit choices. It does not really allow for much zoning because while everything bounces like mad, they dont really do anything besides that, and if you expect someone to just waltz into them, it doesn't really work. You have to be offensive with it to make really effective in my opinion. Forcing mistakes and people into the fruit. It also is more Z dropping friendly, including the key.

You want to apply pressure with it through Z dropping and walking in with your fruit. You can walk on the orange to give you a safe approach, you can throw people into the apple or melon, the galaxian eats shields...
It's an unorthodox fruit. You have to play differently with it. Instead of throwing them at the opponent, you force your opponent into them. It's like putting an obstacle course on the field.

 

[mega4000]

so which ones are the critical pacman sets? don't tell me everything is useful, because in the case of mega man 1311 and 1312 are the superior sets by a mile in almost every matchup, and I don't think pacman can go deeper than megaman with customs on. To many sugestions on this thread without actual proof I guess, it's getting complicate for a lot of players to aproach other characters aside their mains.

 

[MegaBlaster1234]

so which ones are the critical pacman sets? don't tell me everything is useful, because in the case of mega man 1311 and 1312 are the superior sets by a mile in almost every matchup, and I don't think pacman can go deeper than megaman with customs on. To many sugestions on this thread without actual proof I guess.

Pac-Man just has customs that drastically change his playstyle so much that it's hard to choose critical sets. It's generally agreed that Side B 1 is the best one, and Down B 1 and 2 are very effective at disrupting the match in different ways, but the neutral B and Up B customs are all really good.

Freaky Fruit helps on offense, and Lazy Fruit helps on defense. Power Pac-Jump is a much more reliable recovery move at the cost of the third jump's height and the on-stage disrupt tool, but it's better for attacking through shields, and Meteor Trampoline is a nightmare when properly set up.

My personal favorite sets are 1112, 1122, and 3122, but Pac-Man has a good variety to choose from that caters to different playstyles, so it's hard to pinpoint key sets.

 

[mega4000]

Can you ever not come off haughty and derogatory?

Dire hydrant is bad because it lacks a beneficial purpose. We throw away stage control for...what? A "meh" sized hitbox that can't kill and is unsafe on shield?

Back when we first discussed these sets, I personally looked into dire hydrant for potential, and found nothing notable in theory or practice.

Please tell me why we should use it.



If you tell us why it isn't optimal and how top players are "playing around it",
Maybe we can help

I wanna know which set would you use against Dabuz Rosalina the one with 2311 who can use luma warp and absorb everything with gravitation pull plus her good zooning with luma warp and shooting star bits combined and the one you would use against a pro diddy kong like zero.

Pac-Man just has customs that drastically change his playstyle so much that it's hard to choose critical sets. It's generally agreed that Side B 1 is the best one, and Down B 1 and 2 are very effective at disrupting the match in different ways, but the neutral B and Up B customs are all really good.

Freaky Fruit helps on offense, and Lazy Fruit helps on defense. Power Pac-Jump is a much more reliable recovery move at the cost of the third jump's height and the on-stage disrupt tool, but it's better for attacking through shields, and Meteor Trampoline is a nightmare when properly set up.

My personal favorite sets are 1112, 1122, and 3122, but Pac-Man has a good variety to choose from that caters to different playstyles, so it's hard to pinpoint key sets.

Then, tell me which sets would you use for this characters:
Rosalina with 2311
Diddy Default
Mega Man with 1312/1112
Sheik
Mii Brawler with 1122
Palutena with customs and reflector.
Villager with exploding baloons and trip seed.

 

[Nu~]

I wanna know which set would you use against Dabuz Rosalina the one with 2311 who can use luma warp and absorb everything with gravitation pull plus her good zooning with luma warp and shooting star bits combined and the one you would use against a pro diddy kong like zero.



Then, tell me which sets would you use for this characters:
Rosalina with 2311
Diddy Default
Mega Man with 1312/1112
Sheik
Mii Brawler with 1122
Palutena with customs and reflector.
Villager with exploding baloons and trip seed.

This will be fun!!!
But will take a long time...

First, why are you asking us this? Are you gathering research for the mega man thread, or do you not think Pac-Man is viable? Or, are you curious about Pac's potential? Sorry, I'm a neuropsychologist.
I just have to know your motives.

Also, judging by the custom sets, it seems that you think that reflectors hurt us severely. A custom palutena with reflect?Thats funny.

 

[mega4000]

This will be fun!!!
But will take a long time...

First, why are you asking us this? Are you gathering research for the mega man thread, or do you not think Pac-Man is viable? Or, are you curious about Pac's potential? Sorry, I'm a neuropsychologist.
I just have to know your motives.

Also, judging by the custom sets, it seems that you think that reflectors hurt us severely. A custom palutena with reflect?Thats funny.

because my best friend who recently came back after retirement doesn't know how to play with customs. His main is pacman, and he is my partner in doubles with customs on so I wanna know what should he use to give him some advice and also teach him how to counter my reflector sets because right now I'm destroying him and I don't want that, I want him to be on the same level as I'm and before customs on we were even.
Of course I think pacman is viable, but my friend says that reflector characters and rosalina destroy him so I wanna teach him how to overcome this matchups with customs on. He is getting into customs right now, but he still uses 1111 in tournament and people are kicking his ass. Worst of it is that he used to be a top player and one of the best players before customs.

 

[Nu~]

because my best friend who recently came back after retirement doesn't know how to play with customs. His main is pacman, and he is my partner in doubles with customs on so I wanna know what should he use to give him some advice and also teach him how to counter my reflector sets because right now I'm destroying him and I don't want that, I want him to be on the same level as I'm and before customs on we were even.

Awesome! Well I would love to help you help him out.

Rosa with 2311:
This was an annoying matchup before, but thankfully it gets a bit better with customs. Star bit laser is cancelled by our Side B. If we use Side B, the pellet falls on contact with the star bit, and we can eat the pellet for 2%. That stops Rosa's long range camp game.
However, we can't win in long range either. Our fruits all lose to GP in long range. Luckily, Pac-Man has a mean mid range game that we can abuse in this matchup.
I personally would take 1121, 1132, 2132, or 1131 to this matchup. You may ask, "why all of the custom sets?"
It's because our customs make us play in so many different ways.

Bonus fruit:
Apple, melon, key, and Galixian are the most important fruits in this matchup.
All can be picked up in midrange if rosa tries to GP them. The melon is to cover our approach, and to act as bait. It acts as a wall that we can run behind. Is rosa GPs it, we can pick it up with a dash attack and punish GP's long animation.
If she shields, Luma flies off the stage and we can recatch the fruit after it bounces off.
The Apple kills Rosa early because of its high vertical knockback, and it comes out pretty fast in mid range. It also covers landings very well.
The galaxian is a combo starter. One hit shreds through Luma and rosa, and sets up a combo. We can follow up that hit with a fair into nair which will knock her back into the galaxian. There is a galaxian death combo that starts around 40~ damage on rosa, but it's kinda hard to perform.
http://shoryuken.com/2015/01/22/did...l-in-these-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u-combos/

Only the second one isn't guaranteed.
The key is self explanatory. Kill move, hits through luma, can be z dropped for tons of damage and stupid combos.
http://youtu.be/QE2KcKONrCU
We win mid range and Long range is a stalemate (it's an advantage for us if rosa mindlessly spams side B)

The meteor trampoline (the third trampoline custom)
disrespects Rosa's recovery because it's a frame 3 spike with a crazy vertical hitbox. It also acts as a pitfall on the ground if we get it to turn red (which happens quite easily if we use it OoS and land it)
On stage Trampolines in general make Rosa's life hard because she has to jump over it to approach, leaving herself open from underneath. If she sends in Luma instead, we smash it with a hydrant. You always want to be inside the range of luma warp because that move is dangerous for kill confirms. A reason to avoid long range at high percentages.

Power Pac jump (the second trampoline custom) is for combos and kills. Rosa dies off the top, the place where PPJ kills, so our uair juggles become dangerous for her at high percentages. It also gives us a safer recovery if she uses GP on our Side B. This is for the more aggressive Pac-Man.

Freaky fruit: strawberry and cherry pull rosa in like gravity grenade. This gives us another kill confirm, a grab confirm, and a combo starter. They also hover around in mid range so that's a plus. The apple can be ran behind for a safe approach, the melon acts as a pseudo danger wrap that can be z dropped and can launch the hydrant in one hit.

A strong midrange based set based on traps and offense is ideal for the rosa matchup.

Should I make these shorter? Lol

 

[mega4000]

Awesome! Well I would love to help you help him out.

Rosa with 2311:
This was an annoying matchup before, but thankfully it gets a bit better with customs. Star bit laser is cancelled by our Side B. If we use Side B, the pellet falls on contact with the star bit, and we can eat the pellet for 2%. That stops Rosa's long range camp game.
However, we can't win in long range either. Our fruits all lose to GP in long range. Luckily, Pac-Man has a mean mid range game that we can abuse in this matchup.
I personally would take 1121, 1132, 2132, or 1131 to this matchup. You may ask, "why all of the custom sets?"
It's because our customs make us play in so many different ways.

Bonus fruit:
Apple, melon, key, and Galixian are the most important fruits in this matchup.
All can be picked up in midrange if rosa tries to GP them. The melon is to cover our approach, and to act as bait. It acts as a wall that we can run behind. Is rosa GPs it, we can pick it up with a dash attack and punish GP's long animation.
If she shields, Luma flies off the stage and we can recatch the fruit after it bounces off.
The Apple kills Rosa early because of its high vertical knockback, and it comes out pretty fast in mid range. It also covers landings very well.
The galaxian is a combo starter. One hit shreds through Luma and rosa, and sets up a combo. We can follow up that hit with a fair into nair which will knock her back into the galaxian. There is a galaxian death combo that starts around 40~ damage on rosa, but it's kinda hard to perform.
http://shoryuken.com/2015/01/22/did...l-in-these-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u-combos/

Only the second one isn't guaranteed.
The key is self explanatory. Kill move, hits through luma, can be z dropped for tons of damage and stupid combos.
http://youtu.be/QE2KcKONrCU
We win mid range and Long range is a stalemate (it's an advantage for us if rosa mindlessly spams side B)

The meteor trampoline (the third trampoline custom)
disrespects Rosa's recovery because it's a frame 3 spike with a crazy vertical hitbox. It also acts as a pitfall on the ground if we get it to turn red (which happens quite easily if we use it OoS and land it)
On stage Trampolines in general make Rosa's life hard because she has to jump over it to approach, leaving herself open from underneath. If she sends in Luma instead, we smash it with a hydrant. You always want to be inside the range of luma warp because that move is dangerous for kill confirms. A reason to avoid long range at high percentages.

Power Pac jump (the second trampoline custom) is for combos and kills. Rosa dies off the top, the place where PPJ kills, so our uair juggles become dangerous for her at high percentages. It also gives us a safer recovery if she uses GP on our Side B. This is for the more aggressive Pac-Man.

Freaky fruit: strawberry and cherry pull rosa in like gravity grenade. This gives us another kill confirm, a grab confirm, and a combo starter. They also hover around in mid range so that's a plus. The apple can be ran behind for a safe approach, the melon acts as a pseudo danger wrap that can be z dropped and can launch the hydrant in one hit.

A strong midrange based set based on traps and offense is ideal for the rosa matchup.

Should I make these shorter? Lol

yes pls, wow... 4 sets for one character? thats a lot.. Also, you didn't explain the differences between using fire hydrant or water hydrant against rosa.

 

[Nu~]

yes pls, wow... 4 sets for one character? thats a lot..

Our options are exponential with each custom set and cover a broad range of matchups. We have more than 1 custom set that can be used against every character.
They gave us 24 fruits and the strangest stage control tools in the game...it's only natural that we can cover every matchup with 8 sets (although I wish we had 10...)

Mega Man 1312, 1112

Personally, one of my favorite matchups and one I study a lot.
I take 1132, 1131, or 1112. Even default works fine.

Play with Mega Man in mid range. Your melon and every fruit above it out prioritize all of mega man's projectiles.
Using a melon to approach mega man is a great option because it will eat lemons while you run up behind it. Skull barrier takes 11 frames to startup, so bait it. Charge up to a melon, and don't shoot it until mega man shoots a lemon.
Mega Man isn't very threatening with skull barrier up. We can trampoline out of his grab, or catch his metal blade if he throws it at us with the barrier up.
All you have to do is play smarter with your fruit and try to move closer into CQC where you have the advantage.

Diddy: 1132, 2132, 3131
Shiek: 1132, 2132, 3131

Shiek's needles are absorbed by the fruit because the fruit has a hurtbox, on fire hydrant hurts both of their mobility, and lazy fruit/ meteor trampoline is good for making their approaches more linear. The trampoline also interrupts teleports so we can spike Shiek out of her Vanish.


Palutena w/reflector: anything beside lazy fruit. Reflectors love slow projectiles.
You can use your Side B on the reflector. It reflects the Power pellet, then you can eat it for 2%. Use your apple and bell to hit over the reflector.

Brawler: 1132, 2132, 1112
On fire hydrant makes rushdown hard, and severely limits his ground mobility.

yes pls, wow... 4 sets for one character? thats a lot.. Also, you didn't explain the differences between using fire hydrant or water hydrant against rosa.

Water hydrant does more damage on the way down, (which matters a lot because it is one of the few moves that can bypass Rosa's uair) while
on fire hydrant flames kill luma and make it harder for her to GP it since she has to avoid the damage.

 

[BSP]

I wanna know which set would you use against Dabuz Rosalina the one with 2311 who can use luma warp and absorb everything with gravitation pull plus her good zooning with luma warp and shooting star bits combined and the one you would use against a pro diddy kong like zero.

Rosalina with 2311

On the flip side, you can approach the MU like how I explain here. Default Key is vital for this strategy, but everything else is up to preference. I would suggest: 1112, 1132, or 1122. I prefer trampoline control myself, but PPJ may suit your tastes more. Make sure your friend knows that he can heal himself when Rosalina uses Gravitational Pull by using side B and immediately pressing A to eat the pellet.

For Rosalina's Customs:

• If she takes any down B except default, your projectile game is now freed up like normal.
• I haven't dealt with Luma Warp in a match yet, but I don't think it would change the neutral game that much. While we're at it, we should test to see if Luma will warp past hydrants. In a random match of Dabuz with it, I don't see him using it much in neutral.
• Side B full screen star bit laser. Let Hydrant tank the other ones. I'll have to look into Default Key vs the Bit.

I think it might be worse for us with customs. Luma Warp could be a big pain, but I want to play against it first before I say anything. On Fire Hydrant placed randomly would probably be a strong deterrent for warping Luma anywhere. Actually, On Fire would be a big deal in general, because Luma can't block at all. If she GPs it away, we heal or punish.

Pac-Man can't win from long range exclusively, but he wins if Rosalina doesn't play aggressively.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

If Rosa warps Luma, he'll be burned by the torture chamber called On Fire Hydrant.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Hey guys, I'm trying to pick up Pac-man as a secondary. Do you know what loadout would be best against a character like Luigi? He gives me trouble and I feel like Pac-man could deal with him, due to Pacman just being flat out good at not getting grabbed but most characters.

Probably the same as Brawler actually, I've fought a pacman who used 1132 before and it was so hard to get in on him, frustrated me so much.

 

[Firedemon0]

You are pretty much dead on with the 1132 option.

Luigi is very grab centered damage wise. Pac-man has the tools to really counter that mind set with trampoline, hydrant and OOS nairs. Default fruit is plenty strong against Luigi, and he does not gain much from holding fruit against Pac-man. Because of his poor horizontal movement, On Fire really wrecks his day and has trouble escaping the pressure it generates. Default hydrant would help him be more slippery with water pushes, and he can make use of that to grab easier.

I will say, awesome job repping Brawler, I have him as a secondary, and picked up Helicopter after seeing you use it a few times.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Default Fruit is walling king and Weegee hates that.

 

[Nu~]

Hey guys, I'm trying to pick up Pac-man as a secondary. Do you know what loadout would be best against a character like Luigi? He gives me trouble and I feel like Pac-man could deal with him, due to Pacman just being flat out good at not getting grabbed but most characters.

X132 or X131

Meteor trampoline is cruel to luigi. Not only does it make it extremely hard for him to approach us on the ground, but it has a nasty frame 3 spike with large vertical range that just ruins luigi's life while recovering.
On fire hydrant is the nail in the coffin. The fire from this hydrant offers stupid stage control and outs Luigi at risk of being blasted back by flames (and possibly killed) if he tries to approach from the ground. It will also tank all of his fire ball customs, just for us to ftilt the hydrant at him once his fireballs weaken it enough.

You could also use the default hydrant however if you want to exploit luigi's terrible traction. The default hydrant also allows you to do Z drop tricks with the fruit to hinder luigi's approach, cover our approach, or set up traps.

His normal fire ball approach is neutralized by our Side B. The pellet will fall when it comes in contact with the fire ball, giving us a 2% heal with no cooldown as opposed to shielding.

Any fruit will work in this matchup. It just depends on your playstyle.

Freaky fruit is quite offensive in mid range, but defensive in long range. Strawberry and cherry pull the opponent in for grabs, KO confirms, or combos. They also linger for stage control

Lazy fruit can be offensive, but also defensive in CQC. Z dropping is crazy with this fruit, and the galaxian/ orange just destroy all ground approaches.

Default is always perfect for walling, combos, etc.
Overall the most versatile.

It's awesome that you want to use Pac-Man.
Hope all goes well with both your main and secondary!

 

[BSP]

Don't sleep on 1112 vs. Luigi. If you get cyclone gimped, default will save you. I also see Luigi having extreme trouble getting in on an On Fire Hydrant with a trampoline in front of it.

I began messing with On Fire vs. Luma last night. Even at 0%, both of the fire hitboxes will knock Luma away, and I don't think Rosalina can control him again until he hits the ground.

I don't have Luma Warp unlocked, but I will be testing that next.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Thank you all for the quick advice! I certainly feel like he can cover some bad matchups that Brawler has so I'll let you all know how I do with that.

 

[PigglyJuff]

I can't even find the darn things...

 

[Froggy]

After yesterday's tournament I am so completley convinced the Dire Hydrant is a great custom.

People asked for video of it being used effectively as I described but it's unlikely I'm going to get such a match stream, anyone know how to transfer saved replays from the Wii U to a 3Ds?

 

[Ikes]

what's the verdict on lazy fruit?

 

[Froggy]

what's the verdict on lazy fruit?

It seems good in theory but I just haven't been able to make it work for me. Maybe I need to go an entire tournament with Lazy Fruit exclusively, but it's just asking to lose honestly.

 

[Nu~]

Meteor trampoline isn't as good as I once thought. That lack of power and the extra height in the first jump REALLY hurts its shield busting ability. It's also kinda difficult to get a red trampoline on the ground all the time. The spike is nice, but also kinda difficult to land unless you get a footstool.

I think we should only have it in sets with the on fire hydrant. Nothing else. It should only be paired with freaky fruit and default imo. Freaky fruit allows us to pull them into the red trampoline easier, and gives us some stupid stage control. Default is versatile enough to go with everything.
Lazy fruit is better off being paired with the default trampoline for defense, or the power pac jump for offense.

Also, maybe we should look into enticing power pellet again. With that Mario Kart tech of the week, enticing pellet seems like it could be pretty fatal for the opponent. We can pull an opponent's recovery away from the ledge, hit them, and then make it back with the trampoline. It's also good for catching airdodges because it sucks the opponent in.

Just some theorycraft.

These are my sets btw

Offense: 3121, 1121, 2121
Defense: 1132, 2112, 2132,

Both: 1313(skeptical, still testing), 3111, 1112, 3112

Edit: With the enticing pellet, we can pull opponents like Captain Falcon off the ledge while they try to deny our get up options LOL

Moar Edit: @ BSP all those characters that can run through the hydrant are threatened by dire hydrant. Dire hydrant really is a great OoS move, and it's excellent for getting Pac-Man out of disadvatantge since you can drop it multiple times and it can't be knocked back up at you with a move like fox's uair. I honestly believe that dire hydrant alone gives us one of the best disadvantage states in smash 4.
It's even a great gimping tool.

Definitely deserves a set. Enticing pellet is growing on me as well. It's hard to gimp a Pacman that has a suction kill move right in front of him.
The mind games you can do with it are cool too.

 

[Froggy]

Meteor trampoline isn't as good as I once thought. That lack of power and the extra height in the first jump REALLY hurts its shield busting ability. It's also kinda difficult to get a red trampoline on the ground all the time. The spike is nice, but also kinda difficult to land unless you get a footstool.

I think we should only have it in sets with the on fire hydrant. Nothing else. It should only be paired with freaky fruit and default imo. Freaky fruit allows us to pull them into the red trampoline easier, and gives us some stupid stage control. Default is versatile enough to go with everything.
Lazy fruit is better off being paired with the default trampoline for defense, or the power pac jump for offense.

Also, maybe we should look into enticing power pellet again. With that Mario Kart tech of the week, enticing pellet seems like it could be pretty fatal for the opponent. We can pull an opponent's recovery away from the ledge, hit them, and then make it back with the trampoline. It's also good for catching airdodges because it sucks the opponent in.

Just some theorycraft.

These are my sets btw

Offense: 3121, 1121, 2121
Defense: 1132, 2112, 2132,

Both: 1313(skeptical, still testing), 3111, 1112, 3112

Edit: With the enticing pellet, we can pull opponents like Captain Falcon off the ledge while they try to deny our get up options LOL

Moar Edit: @ BSP all those characters that can run through the hydrant are threatened by dire hydrant. Dire hydrant really is a great OoS move, and it's excellent for getting Pac-Man out of disadvatantge since you can drop it multiple times and it can't be knocked back up at you with a move like fox's uair. I honestly believe that dire hydrant alone gives us one of the best disadvantage states in smash 4.
It's even a great gimping tool.

Definitely deserves a set. Enticing pellet is growing on me as well. It's hard to gimp a Pacman that has a suction kill move right in front of him.
The mind games you can do with it are cool too.

OMG finally! I can't believe it took me arguing with half the people in the thread to give Dire Hydrant a second look. The thing is great, and is a utility that Pacman absolutely needs. Not saying it's necessarly better than either of the down customs but it absolutely deserves to be in the custom set.

I'll post my custom sets later.

Edit: And I'm also happy that more people are seeing meteor trampoline isn't so great.

 

[BSP]

Meteor trampoline isn't as good as I once thought. That lack of power and the extra height in the first jump REALLY hurts its shield busting ability. It's also kinda difficult to get a red trampoline on the ground all the time. The spike is nice, but also kinda difficult to land unless you get a footstool.

Glad you're seeing the shield busting issues with Meteor now. I don't know how I let that 3% slip past me earlier, but that's a big deal along with going higher on bounce 1. It's still superior for stage control, but like I said, beating shield is more important IMO.

I think we should only have it in sets with the on fire hydrant. Nothing else. It should only be paired with freaky fruit and default imo. Freaky fruit allows us to pull them into the red trampoline easier, and gives us some stupid stage control. Default is versatile enough to go with everything.
Lazy fruit is better off being paired with the default trampoline for defense, or the power pac jump for offense.

Agreed. The good thing about the higher bounce 1 on Meteor is that it's perfect to propel Pac-Man over and past On Fire's flames. The two go hand in hand.

Moar Edit: @ BSP all those characters that can run through the hydrant are threatened by dire hydrant. Dire hydrant really is a great OoS move, and it's excellent for getting Pac-Man out of disadvatantge since you can drop it multiple times and it can't be knocked back up at you with a move like fox's uair. I honestly believe that dire hydrant alone gives us one of the best disadvantage states in smash 4.
It's even a great gimping tool.

I'll try it out once I'm at something with customs. The only issue is no ledge trapping with hydrant if we're running Dire, but give and take. More utility in neutral and disadvantage vs trapping potential in advantage. Now that I think about it though, camping the ledge vs. Sonic with Dire in tow would be a real pain for him. And as Froggy mentioned, it's a great option to have that beats common options by the faster characers.

 

[Froggy]

So the three sets that I think are absolutely essential are:

1112
1113
3112

A set I like but I still need to experiment with a bit more is 3113.
I think the stage control lazy fruit gives makes up for the stage control you lose with Dire Hydrant. That with way the trampoline an Dire Hydrant you have great defensive options, and with Lazy Fruit and the trampoline you still have strong stage control.

for niche purposes I would also like to 2112 or 2111.
I personally haven't found it to my taste but I'm sure some people will want to use the Freaky Fruit and it does have some useful utility.

 

[Neutricity]

I go to custom tournaments monthly and the effective sets I've used:
1111 because water hydrant is just amazing
1132 I like using meteor trampoline because it spooks my opponent and the lower bounces make it easier to hit them. On-Fire Hydrant is fun because its more kill potential pac-man needs but I prefer water hydrant

And I'm experimenting with:
2111
2132
My thing is, I see Freaky Fruit as basically combo fruit. In match-ups where not camping and beating the crap out your opponent is ideal (or you don't want to risk a key reflected in your face), then Freaky Fruit may be for you.

Next is finding match-ups where I can prosper with Enticing Power Pellet.

 

[Froggy]

I go to custom tournaments monthly and the effective sets I've used:
1111 because water hydrant is just amazing
1132 I like using meteor trampoline because it spooks my opponent and the lower bounces make it easier to hit them. On-Fire Hydrant is fun because its more kill potential pac-man needs but I prefer water hydrant

And I'm experimenting with:
2111
2132
My thing is, I see Freaky Fruit as basically combo fruit. In match-ups where not camping and beating the crap out your opponent is ideal (or you don't want to risk a key reflected in your face), then Freaky Fruit may be for you.

Next is finding match-ups where I can prosper with Enticing Power Pellet.

Does Freaky gain any useful utility once you've caught it? Just thinking about way most of the fruits bounce it doesn't seem that way.

Plus are there any effective tricks you can use when throwing it into the hydrant water?(to hit your opponent I mean)

 

[Neutricity]

Does Freaky gain any useful utility once you've caught it? Just thinking about way most of the fruits bounce it doesn't seem that way.

Plus are there any effective tricks you can use when throwing it into the hydrant water?(to hit your opponent I mean)

Thus far, I can say catching the fruit is worthless except for galaxian, apple, and melon. But hitting the hydrant with a bair followed by an apple, cherry, bell, or strawberry makes the hydrant go and some pretty neat angles.

Apple sends the hydrant at an high lob angle and it will bounce! It would it an opponent jumping or maybe trying recover to ledge.
Cherry/Strawberry can either send the hydrant at a (Strawberry sends it faster than cherry) forward or backward at a low angle that will force your opponent to dodge, shield, or take that damage.
Bell is another high lob angle.

Hitting the hydrant with key is worthless but using orange and galaxian on it aren't nothing to brag about.
Now catching the fruit doesn't seem to great but if your opponent catches it or reflects then you don't have much to fear.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Does Freaky gain any useful utility once you've caught it? Just thinking about way most of the fruits bounce it doesn't seem that way.

Plus are there any effective tricks you can use when throwing it into the hydrant water?(to hit your opponent I mean)

Melon catching is essential for Freaky Fruit.
It gives a kill move the speed of Orange and can be used for those hard reads.

Strawberry and Galaxian are also handy to have in hand.

My guide on Freaky Fruit is a great resource of info.

 

[Nu~]

Strawberry and cherry are much better when thrown as items. The opponent can't approach you on the ground when you have them out because they can't catch them to avoid damage. They can only run up and shield which gives us a free grab/trampoline pop, or they have to approach from the air.

I personally use freaky fruit with the on fire hydrant for a stronger trap game. Meteor trampoline is very useful here