Pac-Man Custom Moveset Discussion

[Froggy]

The trampoline is easily gimpable. Opponents can simply jump on your trampoline after your second bounce. If you don't make it back with the second, you just died.

The side B is gimpable as well. Every character can attack your pellet to eliminate your recovery option. Hell, some characters can just shoot it, reflect it, or pocket it. It is not super safe at high levels of play. People will start to realize this, and it is not a good idea to bank on the ignorance of our opponent. This is terrible for the long term. Please stop treating our recovery as if it's the second best in the game. We will get gimped. It is great, but not as golden as you want it to be.

How often do you even have to use the third bounce to recover?(in which case the ppj wouldn’t have helped you anyways) very rarely do you end up being that far away from the stage, unless you intentionally delayed your trampoline to avoid and off state edge guard. In these cases your mix up is between delaying or not delaying both the side B and up b, keeping in mind they both can recover from very far beneath the stage. The trampoline can be used after the recovery of the Power pellet is done (I’ve found that typically when the pelete is destroyed you’ve already gained some of your recovery) in addition you can alternate how quickly after the petite is released you recover, and as Bulby mentioned you have some micro movement over where the pellet goes, not to mention that if they mess up the gimp the power pellet has super armor and one hell of a KO able hit box.

The larger point I am making is that THESE MOVES DO NOT EXIST WITHIN A VACCUM. Unless you are completely predictable with your recovery you should be avoiding gimps almost all the time outside of a hard read. Two things we haven’t even mentioned before is that Pacman has a wall jump for an additional recovery option (which again does not exist in a vacuum and should be used in conjunction with all his other recovery mix ups) and also you don’t need to side b to the ledge. You can side b as early as possible giving your opponent no time to destroy the pellet. You say I’m tunnel visioned, but how are you really looking at this? Your entire perception seems very static.

What you fail to realize is how vulnerable we are in the way down. Yeah, we can't get meteor smashed, but in a customs meta, everyone can blow us away with windboxes while we take our sweet *** time recovering. Windboxes ruin side B as well. Greninja had a field day with our recovery options.
(my fights with FullMoon have taught me well)

Power pac jump is a quick recovery option with just a little less recovery than the second jump in the default. This gives us a safer recovery in general. It's fast enough to avoid windboxes in time, and gives us the same amount of invincibility during the move. We don't have to worry about people destroying us on the way down.

Please try to think about the future of our meta. Tunnel vision will not get us far.

This is just crap. There are a handful of Wind boxes that are effective for gimping,, look at this http://www.ssbwiki.com/Wind and tell me how much of those moves are practical to knock Pacman off his trampoline, hell for some of them Dr Marip’s Breezy sheet for example, won’t work unless its done Close to your trampoline as the gust isn’t even that strong and you could just redirect yourself to the trampoline, in addition it won’t work if the ledge has a wall going down to the bottom of the stage(half of the FD omegas for example).

I will make one concession which is that if you’re overly paranoid about getting gimped and you want absolutely the safest recovery option possible then there is a strong case to be made for the Pac Power jump, so I take back my earlier comment about it being useless. In fact I could see it being effective in conjunction with the distant power pellet. I do still think it’s foolish to have it be in the majority of custom sets though.

Characters that do ignore the trampoline, also have better ways to disrupt our recovery.

Greninja approaches from the air, and can ruin our recovery options

Villager used to be able to pocket our trampoline

Jigglypuff could come off stage at any time to hit our power pellet, or bair us on the way down from our Up B (it isn't smart to rely on "maybe" hitting the trampoline after a stage spike)

Granted, it isn't a large number, but it's still important enough to take into consideration. Gimps are no joke..

No character fully ignores the trampoline btw. As Bulby mentioned before its still on the stage so they cannot simply run up to you an attack you. Grenenja for example(like every character except maybe Puff) does not have the vertical air mobility to punish you out of shield if you up b away from them. If you use the PPJ you’re just asking to be dash up smash by everyone(not just Greninja) it’s really silly honestly.

Just keep enforcing your opinion on us pal.
But sure, I'll accept your apology.
I will admit that the power pac jump shouldn't have taken up every default up B spot (I actually wanted default in at least one set back then, and now) but I will not agree with your faulty reasoning on why power pac jump shouldn't have even been considered.

I'll repeat again that I was just upset because of what I saw at the evo cutoms page and lashed out a bit. I know that I will not being going to Evo because this custom set is very bad for Pacman, and yes I do think you and the others who agreed to this made a big mistake, which even you yourself seem to be admitting now, and I think you should step up and take some responsiblity for that. But no help in pointing fingers now though, we should all be working to find a solution to this.[/quote]

 

[WeirdChillFever]

PacMan "Just mix up and you won't get gimped" 9 telling about how our recovering is screwed with a tap of a finger makes me laugh.

-If you get Windboxed after PPJ, you'll never ever getting back either
-Air speed exists, if PP is stolen, you're not magically poofed to the blastline

 

[Froggy]

The biggest fear people have that you will be chased after using it? Why are you using it in those match-ups OOS? SH nair is a superior out of shield option in those applied pressure

No its not, not even close. SH nair is superior to the trampoline only in knock back(only with sweet spot hit box at that), it's extremely punishible in fact it is simulatnaously his second laggiest aeral and well the aeral with the least range. All your opponent has to do is block and then punish you. It's not half as good as you're claiming.

PacMan "Just mix up and you won't get gimped" 9 telling about how our recovering is screwed with a tap of a finger makes me laugh.

-If you get Windboxed after PPJ, you'll never ever getting back either
-Air speed exists, if PP is stolen, you're not magically poofed to the blastline

I think it says more about your poor recovery methods than it does about Pacman's recovery options. Gimping isn't something I fear as a Pacman main.

- Good point
- That's only if they destory pelet sucessfully and before you've started recovering, more than likely you'll still be able to recover with the default trampoline afterwards anyways.

 

[dragontamer]

You say I’m tunnel visioned, but how are you really looking at this? Your entire perception seems very static.

Froggy: I asked you to deescalate. You bring up good points in your posts, but please do so with more restraint.

EDIT: @ Froggy and @ Nu~ : do not argue with "each other". Argue to demonstrate your opponent's fallacy towards the audience. There's a number of people participating in this debate. It is generally too much to ask your direct opponent to agree with you... instead, convince the other readers that your views are superior.

 

[Firedemon0]

Snippy snip

I still sense some minor hostility here, even if you are not trying to project it. It was not just @ Nu~ who decided these moves sets. If you read through the thread, you see that 1112 was on the table as a set. It was removed from the available list after discussion was made. In most cases, meteor trampoline is vastly superior onstage, and off, excluding recovery. You do not seem to be arguing that point however, your issues seem to be with PPJ alone. You stated that these moves should not be considered in a Vacuum, yet proceed to do exactly that with your counterpoints.

I stated a page back some of the merits, but your arguments against default over PPJ just are not working for me.

On stage, default trampoline, gives extra stage control then hydrant would alone. The setup of |^| __ onstage is generally considered a strong play state for Pac-man. This is not done for damage, so Meteor in this setup is preferable. So then the real issue, is PPJ onstage versus Default in other situations. PPJ excels in those other parts excluding defensive options.


Off stage, Default trampoline is only useful for catching airdodges (not really but it does work), or recovery. It has more horizontal movement speed then PPJ. It also allows for some pretty interesting recoveries. If you need 3rd bounce, which you are dismissing as not needed, it is the strongest recovery option. So then becomes the question of gimping, and that 2nd bounce. Height wise, PPJ is same as 2nd bounce default. Which in your opinion is the max height needed. So outside of horizontal airspeed, Recovery wise, they are equal.

So I just described these things in a vacuum. How does this apply?

Gameplan wise, a PPJ Pac-man, would generally speaking be more aggressively minded. They would not normally setup the trampoline setup that is preferred above. They would only use PPJ to break shield or spotdodge spam, and would use Hydrant to allow space for Fruit charging/setups. Offstage, they would be going deep after players, side b back, and ppJ to get that last bit of speed. They would use PPJ to follow up and finish air combos. It is really good at that, as that extra height and multiple hit boxes makes air dodging difficult. They would use it to apply pressure, not stage control, using hydrant to force unfavorable conditions that fruit and PPJ would provide damage with. The argument that opening yourself up to dashing up smashes if you miss, is ridiculous when you get on stages with platforms and that most up smashes do not go over the ledge, allowing you to reset to neutral with a ledge grab. If you replace it default in those same situations. It is more of a hindrance, as it slows down your aggressive game plan. You too need to respect it. PPJ is a purely offensive move and should be treated as such.

 

[Nu~]

PacMan "Just mix up and you won't get gimped" 9 telling about how our recovering is screwed with a tap of a finger makes me laugh.

-If you get Windboxed after PPJ, you'll never ever getting back either
-Air speed exists, if PP is stolen, you're not magically poofed to the blastline

Not if you clip to the ledge. With the default, you have to come back down (when you are vulnerable) with power pac jump, you can clip to the ledge faster.
Yeah air speed exists, but then you have to rely on the rather unsafe Up B while the opponent is on you like a wild animal.

Yes I've changed my mind, is this not something acceptable? When you fight people like nairo (who actually chase you all the way off the stage)
You start to realize that our recovery isn't super safe. Safe, but not as reliable as froggy claims.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

PPJ is good because UAir is not.

I land a nice combo so many times that ends up in the opponent being above me and then I'm like yaay my super finisher is a kick that kills at 190% and then I wish I had PPJ.

If UAir would be a better combo finisher, I'd agree on PPJ being not that fantastic but as it stands PPJ is good.

 

[Nu~]

How often do you even have to use the third bounce to recover?(in which case the ppj wouldn’t have helped you anyways) very rarely do you end up being that far away from the stage, unless you intentionally delayed your trampoline to avoid and off state edge guard. In these cases your mix up is between delaying or not delaying both the side B and up b, keeping in mind they both can recover from very far beneath the stage. The trampoline can be used after the recovery of the Power pellet is done (I’ve found that typically when the pelete is destroyed you’ve already gained some of your recovery) in addition you can alternate how quickly after the petite is released you recover, and as Bulby mentioned you have some micro movement over where the pellet goes, not to mention that if they mess up the gimp the power pellet has super armor and one hell of a KO able hit box.

The larger point I am making is that THESE MOVES DO NOT EXIST WITHIN A VACCUM. Unless you are completely predictable with your recovery you should be avoiding gimps almost all the time outside of a hard read. Two things we haven’t even mentioned before is that Pacman has a wall jump for an additional recovery option (which again does not exist in a vacuum and should be used in conjunction with all his other recovery mix ups) and also you don’t need to side b to the ledge. You can side b as early as possible giving your opponent no time to destroy the pellet. You say I’m tunnel visioned, but how are you really looking at this? Your entire perception seems very static.





This is just crap. There are a handful of Wind boxes that are effective for gimping,, look at this http://www.ssbwiki.com/Wind and tell me how much of those moves are practical to knock Pacman off his trampoline, hell for some of them Dr Marip’s Breezy sheet for example, won’t work unless its done Close to your trampoline as the gust isn’t even that strong and you could just redirect yourself to the trampoline, in addition it won’t work if the ledge has a wall going down to the bottom of the stage(half of the FD omegas for example).

I will make one concession which is that if you’re overly paranoid about getting gimped and you want absolutely the safest recovery option possible then there is a strong case to be made for the Pac Power jump, so I take back my earlier comment about it being useless. In fact I could see it being effective in conjunction with the distant power pellet. I do still think it’s foolish to have it be in the majority of custom sets though.





No character fully ignores the trampoline btw. As Bulby mentioned before its still on the stage so they cannot simply run up to you an attack you. Grenenja for example(like every character except maybe Puff) does not have the vertical air mobility to punish you out of shield if you up b away from them. If you use the PPJ you’re just asking to be dash up smash by everyone(not just Greninja) it’s really silly honestly.




I'll repeat again that I was just upset because of what I saw at the evo cutoms page and lashed out a bit. I know that I will not being going to Evo because this custom set is very bad for Pacman, and yes I do think you and the others who agreed to this made a big mistake, which even you yourself seem to be admitting now, and I think you should step up and take some responsiblity for that. But no help in pointing fingers now though, we should all be working to find a solution to this.

I love how you say to not point fingers right after pointing fingers.

But anyway, please understand that I'm not trying to claim that power pac jump is superior, just that it isn't something that you can easily dismiss. Everything that you have said is missing the point when the opponent relentlessly pursues you.
Shorten the side B? How are you avoiding the opponent now outside of throwing out attacks.

Wall jump?
Same claim can be made for power pac jump.

Not everyone wants to play a full stage control Pac-Man either. I don't want to belabor the point that @ Firedemon0 already brought up, but there will be Pac-Mains that want to play aggressively. The on stage trampoline isn't always a necessity. There are situations where power pac jump is superior (the Greninja matchup and rosa matchup for example)

A lot of those characters with windboxes are the ones that will be dangerous in the near future. Mario's gust cape will destroy us if we try to get a second bounce, Greninja's Up B messes with side B and up B, and Ike's tempest will take us to the moon. This isn't the brightest concern, but don't ignore it.

I also don't like how you condescend me in your "overly paranoid" comment.

With a side B that tells the opponent where we go, and a vulnerable UP B, our recovery isn't safe and sound. It is great don't get me wrong, but against aggressive opponents with a great offstage game, it won't be easy.

Why the continued hostility? I understand that you believe that we have screwed up the customs, but don't attack me with hatred. screaming at each other won't resolve this.

 

[Zage]

Edit: Disregard that lmao.

I don't see the value of using Lazy/Freaky fruit over normal fruit. Its very easy to grab Lazy Fruit right out of the air by air doging over top of them while they are bouncing in place. Freaky fruit can KO yes, but they KO at a much later percent than our normal fruit so we're trading KO power for damage, and damage isn't something default Pacman is lacking in.

 

[Nu~]

Edit: Disregard that lmao.

I don't see the value of using Lazy/Freaky fruit over normal fruit. Its very easy to grab Lazy Fruit right out of the air by air doging over top of them while they are bouncing in place. Freaky fruit can KO yes, but they KO at a much later percent than our normal fruit so we're trading KO power for damage, and damage isn't something default Pacman is lacking in.

Freaky strawberry and cherry pull the opponent in for kills.

They also don't bounce off of shields which will matter very much in the future of our metagame

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Edit: Disregard that lmao.

I don't see the value of using Lazy/Freaky fruit over normal fruit. Its very easy to grab Lazy Fruit right out of the air by air doging over top of them while they are bouncing in place. Freaky fruit can KO yes, but they KO at a much later percent than our normal fruit so we're trading KO power for damage, and damage isn't something default Pacman is lacking in.

Freaky strawberry and cherry pull the opponent in for kills.

They also don't bounce off of shields which will matter very much in the future of our metagame

Don't forget Melon aka The Bouncing Truck.
Pick it up and throw it down or up to get a stupidly fast and stupidly powerful projectile.

 

[Zage]

I'd argue that fruit not bouncing off shields is a bad thing considering we're unable to catch it and immediately pressure the opponent by zdropping it above them.

Lazy Melon and Bonus melon also start KOing Mario at the same exact percentages on FD, (tested in training). The only differences here is that with Lazy Melon you're unable to catch it by throwing it at your own hydrant or off a enemies shield, and the opponent will now have a easier time catching your it while its bouncing in place.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

I'd argue that fruit not bouncing off shields is a bad thing considering we're unable to catch it and immediately pressure the opponent by zdropping it above them.

Lazy Melon and Bonus melon also start KOing Mario at the same exact percentages on FD, (tested in training). The only differences here is that with Lazy Melon you're unable to catch it by throwing it at your own hydrant or off a enemies shield, and the opponent will now have a easier time catching your it while its bouncing in place.

I was talking about Freaky Melon, if that is what you meant.

 

[BSP]

On stage, default trampoline, gives extra stage control then hydrant would alone. The setup of |^| __ onstage is generally considered a strong play state for Pac-man. This is not done for damage, so Meteor in this setup is preferable. So then the real issue, is PPJ onstage versus Default in other situations. PPJ excels in those other parts excluding defensive options.

We can't ignore the fact that Meteor only does 3% when using it for shield busting, and is slightly less safe than default when using it for such purposes since you bounce higher.

I agree with what you're saying about PPJ's offensive applications, but I still think being able to beat shield in neutral with more safety edges it out. You can't really start an offense until you get out of neutral, and PPJ is the riskiest for beating shield in it.

PPJ can beat shield of course, but when you miss...I won't say you're eating a smash attack every time, but you're most likely eating something, and it's hard for me to look past that considering beating shield in neutral reliably is something Pac-Man needs. You can usually get away with misses with default unless you're against Sonic and other extremely mobile characters.

1112
1121
2132
2112
1132
2121
3121
3111
3132
3112

Can you give your reasoning for 4 Lazy Fruit sets? Lazy and PPJ together? I'm guessing to get more KO potential since you lose some with Lazy.

In general, can people tell about Freaky with normal hydrant and Lazy with Default or On Fire? Which one is preferable?

 

[Firedemon0]

Can you give your reasoning for 4 Lazy Fruit sets? Lazy and PPJ together?

Yep, Lazy Galaxian is freaking ridiculous. I think it is very effective fruit option outside of Default, it charges faster then Freaky as well. You can use it to apply shield pressure, and finish off with a PPJ. Bell is a great mixup when you change specials. Key is weaker, but better edge guard tool because it lasts forever. The whole fruit set is all about edge guarding, and forcing players off stage for longer. You can throw people into the fruit after throwing them. You can knock people into them as well.

 

[BSP]

I can understand PPJ with Lazy. I can ax the doubles set for it. Singles is the main focus anyway.

1112
1121
2132
2112
1132
2121
3121
3111
3132
3112

1112 ; 1131 ; 1132 ; 1122/1121 ; 2132 ; 2112 ; 3131 ; 3132 ; 3111 ; 1123 (Doubles)3121

Do you think 1131 isn't strong enough for its own set? Meteor Tramp + Fruit gushing and other things. I think it should get its own. Would you do 2121 -> 1131 or 3112 - >1131? If not, why? Can you tell me what Freaky gets from Default hydrant? I'd give up my 3131 for whichever of 2121 / 3112 you think is stronger.

 

[Firedemon0]

1112 ; 1131 ; 1132 ; 1122/1121 ; 2132 ; 2112 ; 3131 ; 3132 ; 3111 ; 1123 (Doubles)3121

Do you think 1131 isn't strong enough for its own set? Meteor Tramp + Fruit gushing and other things. I think it should get its own. Would you do 2121 -> 1131 or 3112 - >1131? If not, why? Can you tell me what Freaky gets from Default hydrant? I'd give up my 3131 for whichever of 2121 / 3112 you think is stronger.

I think that 1131 is stronger with on fire then without. If it was up to me, there be about almost 20 sets basically rotating the various fruit tramp hydrant combos. Compared to the other sets, I did not think Meteor alone did not warrant a set. The setup is too long to use default hydrant to trap a burial with water. I conceded that to discussion because it was brought to my attention it works when bounced on as well, before I only assumed it was only when bounced on as red, and it made it into the final sets.

I personal let go of 2121 as a set previously to be replaced in the original arguments, it was my own pet build, but it is not for everyone, and I see how someone would see it was weaker. 3121 seems to be stronger for that offensive mindset, so 2121 could very easily be replaced. Those 10 I posted previously were before any other discussion was made.

Freaky gets gush traps with default hydrant. Water also makes them do even more unique things, @ WeirdChillFever explained in his fruit guide if I am not mistaken. Between those, it allows for interesting interactions. However, my thoughts on Lazy have grown, which has changed my option on it.

To update my sets with my current thoughts on the custom moves.

1112 ; 1131 ; 1132 ; 2122 ; 1122 ; 2112 ; 2132 ; 3132 ; 3111 ; 3121

I color coded them green for more offensive sets (gogogo), and yellow for defensive (slow down hombre) and white for balanced sets, that honestly could go either way.

Lazy fruit does not combo all that well alone with meteor, as said previously its damage as an offensive tool is limited, I find lazy to be rushdown friendly for builds.

It can make for possible setups, but 3132 is a superior option for that kind of game plan. On fire hydrant, allows the extra charge time that default would not really allow and makes coming back to stage total hell. Hence why I felt 3112 2112 are good options alone. As for your targeted question, I would consider 3112 stronger then 3131 personally.

With Freaky fruit does have options with default hydrant, but it traps better with on fire, it is just a fact. If I would make a suggestion for freaky + Default hydrant, it would definitely be 2121. I explained about why I let that go. Charge time, plus 3121 just being superior from an offensive goal, just made more sense.

These sets, would by my personal best picks, however, because of Pac-man's possible variety, it does leave some interesting things to discuss.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Even if Freaky Fruit didn't have fun trajectories (Bouncing Strawberry!!!), Hydrant still is a very good choice overall.

 

[Nu~]

Interesting how you find lazy fruit to be more offensive than freaky fruit.
Why?

 

[Firedemon0]

Interesting how you find lazy fruit to be more offensive than freaky fruit.
Why?

Just by the slowness and generally short range compared to the other fruit choices. It does not really allow for much zoning because while everything bounces like mad, they dont really do anything besides that, and if you expect someone to just waltz into them, it doesn't really work. You have to be offensive with it to make really effective in my opinion. Forcing mistakes and people into the fruit. It also is more Z dropping friendly, including the key.

 

[BSP]

1112 ; 1131 ; 1132 ; 2122 ; 1122 ; 2112 ; 2132 ; 3132 ; 3111 ; 3121

This looks good to me. Next time voting comes around, I'll probably get behind this unless something else comes up.

 

[Nu~]

Agreed. Freaky fruit isn't all that necessary for default hydrant anyway.

 

[BSP]

@ Davis-Lightheart can you change the title of this thread to "Pac-Man Custom Move Discussion" or something of the like? Or at least change it to top 10 since that's the number now?

It'd also be nice if the OP could be updated to reflect which sets are our current 10 right now, since this project can and does affect tournament goers.

 

[Neutricity]

Just by the slowness and generally short range compared to the other fruit choices. It does not really allow for much zoning because while everything bounces like mad, they dont really do anything besides that, and if you expect someone to just waltz into them, it doesn't really work. You have to be offensive with it to make really effective in my opinion. Forcing mistakes and people into the fruit. It also is more Z dropping friendly, including the key.

Top players in my state learned to play around lazy fruit real quick. If it works for you then go for it, but anything Lazy Fruit is meh.

 

[Froggy]

To update my sets with my current thoughts on the custom moves.

1112 ; 1131 ; 1132 ; 2122 ; 1122 ; 2112 ; 2132 ; 3132 ; 3111 ; 3121

I color coded them green for more offensive sets (gogogo), and yellow for defensive (slow down hombre) and white for balanced sets, that honestly could go either way.


These sets, would by my personal best picks, however, because of Pac-man's possible variety, it does leave some interesting things to discuss.

These Custom sets you posted is a big improvement over what we have now, but taking a second look I’m not sure how I didn’t realize that there isn’t(and still isn't) a single custom set with the Dire Hydrant(down B Custom 3) and why is that?

It’s an incredible useful tool and leaving it out, while it isn’t quite as big a travesty as the previous leaving the default up B out of the custom sets, it’s in the same vein of negligence and short sightedness that you all made before. We need to learn from our mistakes people.

If there is some gaping flaw in the custom that makes it easily exploitable and useless at high competitive play then please make me aware of it.

 

[Nu~]

These Custom sets you posted is a big improvement over what we have now, but taking a second look I’m not sure how I didn’t realize that there isn’t(and still isn't) a single custom set with the Dire Hydrant(down B Custom 3) and why is that?

It’s an incredible useful tool and leaving it out, while it isn’t quite as big a travesty as the previous leaving the default up B out of the custom sets, it’s in the same vein of negligence and short sightedness that you all made before. We need to learn from our mistakes people.

If there is some gaping flaw in the custom that makes it easily exploitable and useless at high competitive play then please make me aware of it.

Can you ever not come off haughty and derogatory?

Dire hydrant is bad because it lacks a beneficial purpose. We throw away stage control for...what? A "meh" sized hitbox that can't kill and is unsafe on shield?

Back when we first discussed these sets, I personally looked into dire hydrant for potential, and found nothing notable in theory or practice.

Please tell me why we should use it.

Top players in my state learned to play around lazy fruit real quick. If it works for you then go for it, but anything Lazy Fruit is meh.

If you tell us why it isn't optimal and how top players are "playing around it",
Maybe we can help

 

[BSP]

These Custom sets you posted is a big improvement over what we have now, but taking a second look I’m not sure how I didn’t realize that there isn’t(and still isn't) a single custom set with the Dire Hydrant(down B Custom 3) and why is that?

It’s an incredible useful tool and leaving it out, while it isn’t quite as big a travesty as the previous leaving the default up B out of the custom sets, it’s in the same vein of negligence and short sightedness that you all made before. We need to learn from our mistakes people.

If there is some gaping flaw in the custom that makes it easily exploitable and useless at high competitive play then please make me aware of it.

It may not be useless, but is it worth giving up On Fire or default?

From what I understand, Dire's pro's:

It can't be used against you: we've all been hit by our own hydrant before, it happens. Dire removes this problem.

It will consistently be available for use: It explodes, so it naturally has lower cooldown than the other two.

Possibly better for covering landings: I haven't messed with the explosion that much, but I'm assuming that it'll blow up if reflected, and I think it'll hit people that try to smack the hydrant out of the air with its explosion. It could possibly demand more respect than the other hydrants when dropped, as far as defensive purposes go, and once it's dropped, you don't have to worry about protecting it or having it thrown back at you before you can act.

I could see use for it in doubles, which is more chaotic and adds a partner that you have to worry about into the mix. In singles, it might be good for characters that really don't care about you throwing a hydrant down to stop their chase, like maybe Bowser, Ganon, Link, and others who have attacks that will continue hitting through the hydrant clash.

As for what you give up:

No fruit gushing: may or may not be a huge issue depending on how you play, but something to note. You will have no consistent way to get default Apple into your hand, you lose gushed Bell setups, you lose delayed traps via Z drop, etc.

No hydrant launching: We're already pretty low on KO power, and Dire doesn't help. It doesn't KO until ~200% and it has too much ending lag to be used as a setup into aerials at higher %s. This disappointed me greatly and ended my serious analysis of the move. A side effect of this is that you lose all traps with hydrant, so the ledge combo is gone, having bouncing hydrants to deter whatever is gone, etc.

No flames from on Fire:

No stage control with a hydrant: Since Dire doesn't linger, you can't use it for stage control like the others. In a sense, you give up stage control for arguably superior air defense. Is it worth it?

I will admit that my serious looking into the move ended once I realized that it has too much ending lag to reliably set up aerials. Who would you take Dire against?

I'm not willing to give up On Fire's Fire, Default's water setups, and both's tumbling and superior KO potential for potential superior landing coverage, which the other two do a fine job of.

 

[Froggy]

Can you ever not come off haughty and derogatory?

Dire hydrant is bad because it lacks a beneficial purpose. We throw away stage control for...what? A "meh" sized hitbox that can't kill and is unsafe on shield?

Back when we first discussed these sets, I personally looked into dire hydrant for potential, and found nothing notable in theory or practice.

Please tell me why we should use it.



If you tell us why it isn't optimal and how top players are "playing around it",
Maybe we can help

You throw away stage control for an alternative defensive option.

It feels weird having to explain the uses of Dire Hydrant, it seems obvious and it would be much better demonstrated if I saved one of my replays of me implementing it after I learned how to incorporate it into my game but here goes.

Defensively it operates similar to the default trampoline, it is a great out of shield option that often catches people off guard(especially if they’re jumping to counter your upb OoS). The move is incredibly quick and props Pacman so high into the air he is safe from attacks unless they’re full hopping specfically to counter it. Unlike the default trampoline though it does more damage and it puts you on frame advantage instead of resetting the situation to neutral. You’re essentially trading a bit offense for defense on your defensive option. But I’d argue its optimal to mix up between the two, instead of relying on either, so you can switch between more defensive and offensive styles.

It’s fantastic as an anti air counter, Diddy Hoohah for example, you can punish someone for trying to punish you for coming down form the air, you may recall that both the default and on fire hydrant can be used in a similar manner but they’re both weaker as they don’t prop Pacman up into the air to safety and they have much smaller hitbox as well.

I don’t know how many of you play street fighter but it’s similar to an instant dive kick, that can be used to punish people for attacking you when they think you’re open. Take the example of you being at frame disadvantage and your opponent s approaching you, the typical mix up is that he’ll either run and try to grab you or run and attack(typically dash attack or sh fair), in which case your counter options are typically to block(beaten by grab), dodge or roll(both of which become risky if your opponent catches on to your habbits) or to try and counter attack(fair or nair maybe) in which case your opponent beat you with a short hop areal since as I said he has frame advantage, you realize that the dire hydrant beats all of these? It’ll punish his whif grab, punishes him if he tries to bait a roll by running pass you or decides to stand their to bait out your dodge, it’ll in most cases even counter his sh areal.

Lastly it’s an incredible combo breaker, like a safer dolphin slash, it can be used to break out of a lot of jab combos. The move is hardly punishable on shield, unless it’s read and spaced poorly

 

[Nu~]

Maybe it would be useful against characters that can hit it back up at you with an aerial? But that's a situational use at best.

I wouldn't take it against people who can knock the hydrant away in one hit as well, because the other hydrants can be used as bait in those matchups. Punish the opponent every time they knock the hydrant away.

We give up a lot of versatility.

Edit: did not see that text above me. Give me some time to respond to that lol

 

[Froggy]

It may not be useless, but is it worth giving up On Fire or default?

From what I understand, Dire's pro's:

It can't be used against you: we've all been hit by our own hydrant before, it happens. Dire removes this problem.

It will consistently be available for use: It explodes, so it naturally has lower cooldown than the other two.

Possibly better for covering landings: I haven't messed with the explosion that much, but I'm assuming that it'll blow up if reflected, and I think it'll hit people that try to smack the hydrant out of the air with its explosion. It could possibly demand more respect than the other hydrants when dropped, as far as defensive purposes go, and once it's dropped, you don't have to worry about protecting it or having it thrown back at you before you can act.

I could see use for it in doubles, which is more chaotic and adds a partner that you have to worry about into the mix. In singles, it might be good for characters that really don't care about you throwing a hydrant down to stop their chase, like maybe Bowser, Ganon, Link, and others who have attacks that will continue hitting through the hydrant clash.

As for what you give up:

No fruit gushing: may or may not be a huge issue depending on how you play, but something to note. You will have no consistent way to get default Apple into your hand, you lose gushed Bell setups, you lose delayed traps via Z drop, etc.

No hydrant launching: We're already pretty low on KO power, and Dire doesn't help. It doesn't KO until ~200% and it has too much ending lag to be used as a setup into aerials at higher %s. This disappointed me greatly and ended my serious analysis of the move. A side effect of this is that you lose all traps with hydrant, so the ledge combo is gone, having bouncing hydrants to deter whatever is gone, etc.

No flames from on Fire:

No stage control with a hydrant: Since Dire doesn't linger, you can't use it for stage control like the others. In a sense, you give up stage control for arguably superior air defense. Is it worth it?

I will admit that my serious looking into the move ended once I realized that it has too much ending lag to reliably set up aerials. Who would you take Dire against?

I'm not willing to give up On Fire's Fire, Default's water setups, and both's tumbling and superior KO potential for potential superior landing coverage, which the other two do a fine job of.

I mentioned why I think it's very good, but I'm not aruguing it should replace either of the other Hydrants completely. The moved is used completely differetly than the other Hydrant(defnesively and not for stage control) so it all depends on what kind of style you want to play and also on the match up. It's a unique and incredibly useful custom so I'm saying it's a major error to completely leave it out.

Edit: I touched on it in the previous post that I made but as an anti air counter the point I'm trying to make is that it gives you an additional option instead of air dodging double jumping away, an option with more teeth in it.

 

[BSP]

You throw away stage control for an alternative defensive option.

It feels weird having to explain the uses of Dire Hydrant, it seems obvious and it would be much better demonstrated if I saved one of my replays of me implementing it after I learned how to incorporate it into my game but here goes.

Please do so. If you know something we don't, show us.

It’s fantastic as an anti air counter, Diddy Hoohah for example, you can punish someone for trying to punish you for coming down form the air, you may recall that both the default and on fire hydrant can be used in a similar manner but they’re both weaker as they don’t prop Pacman up into the air to safety and they have much smaller hitbox as well.

Do you know if the explosion is transcendent or if the hydrant can be reflected back at us at all?

I don’t know how many of you play street fighter but it’s similar to an instant dive kick, that can be used to punish people for attacking you when they think you’re open. Take the example of you being at frame disadvantage and your opponent s approaching you, the typical mix up is that he’ll either run and try to grab you or run and attack(typically dash attack or sh fair), in which case your counter options are typically to block(beaten by grab), dodge or roll(both of which become risky if your opponent catches on to your habbits) or to try and counter attack(fair or nair maybe) in which case your opponent beat you with a short hop areal since as I said he has frame advantage, you realize that the dire hydrant beats all of these? It’ll punish his whif grab, punishes him if he tries to bait a roll by running pass you or decides to stand their to bait out your dodge, it’ll in most cases even counter his sh areal.

Hmm, good point. This is reminding me of Snake's grenades from Brawl. If you struck him after he pulled it out and hit it, you're getting blown up too. However, Dire Hydrant is generated frame 13. Might be a bit slow for the purposes I'm imagining.

Lastly it’s an incredible combo breaker, like a safer dolphin slash, it can be used to break out of a lot of jab combos.

Really? Frame 13 seems kinda slow for this, but if it works, good. Doesn't Nair accomplish this too though?

I mentioned why I think it's very good, but I'm not aruguing it should replace either of the other Hydrants completely. The moved is used completely differetly than the other Hydrant(defnesively and not for stage control) so it all depends on what kind of style you want to play and also on the match up. It's a unique and incredibly useful custom so I'm saying it's a major error to completely leave it out.

I will never suggest to completely replace things. We've got 10 sets, so we've got some (little :\) room to work with.

You have valid points, but I don't know it's worth giving up the other two.

Frame data reference: http://pastebin.com/PzTjdtx8

 

[Nu~]

You throw away stage control for an alternative defensive option.

It feels weird having to explain the uses of Dire Hydrant, it seems obvious and it would be much better demonstrated if I saved one of my replays of me implementing it after I learned how to incorporate it into my game but here goes.

Defensively it operates similar to the default trampoline, it is a great out of shield option that often catches people off guard(especially if they’re jumping to counter your upb OoS). The move is incredibly quick and props Pacman so high into the air he is safe from attacks unless they’re full hopping specfically to counter it. Unlike the default trampoline though it does more damage and it puts you on frame advantage instead of resetting the situation to neutral. You’re essentially trading a bit offense for defense on your defensive option. But I’d argue its optimal to mix up between the two, instead of relying on either, so you can switch between more defensive and offensive styles.

It’s fantastic as an anti air counter, Diddy Hoohah for example, you can punish someone for trying to punish you for coming down form the air, you may recall that both the default and on fire hydrant can be used in a similar manner but they’re both weaker as they don’t prop Pacman up into the air to safety and they have much smaller hitbox as well.

I don’t know how many of you play street fighter but it’s similar to an instant dive kick, that can be used to punish people for attacking you when they think you’re open. Take the example of you being at frame disadvantage and your opponent s approaching you, the typical mix up is that he’ll either run and try grab you or run and attack(typically dash attack or sh fair), in which case you’re counter options are typically to block(beaten by grab), dodge or roll(both of which become risky if your opponent catches on to your habbits) or o try and counter attack(fair or nair maybe) in which case your opponent beat you with a short hop areal since as I said he has frame advantage, you realize that the dire hydrant beats all of these? It’ll punish his whif grab, punishes him if he tries to bait a roll by running pass you or decides to stand their to bait out your dodge, it’ll in most cases even counter which his sh areal.

Lastly it’s an incredible combo breaker, like a safer dolphin slash, it can be used to break out of a lot of jab combos. The move is hardly punishable on shield, unless it’s expected and

Ah, now this gets interesting.
Is the frame data really that good to escape jab combos? I may have to look into that.
This was a hydrant that I wanted to use, but it just never made the cut. I wanted the versatility of the other hydrants, so I kinda shunned the defensive capabilities of this one.
It is the better anti air. I'll definitely give you that (except it can't stop Rosa's Uair juggles unlike the other two)
It also is kind of punishable on shield since you come back down to where you started as the move ends.

Your reasoning seems solid though.
But what matchup would you prefer this in? An extra defensive option is cool, but is it necessary? It may be kind of redundant with the all of the other defensive options we already have.
We are playing Pac-Man after all

Edit: Eh... F13?

 

[Froggy]

Please do so. If you know something we don't, show us..

I saved a beautiful matcha gaisnt Chaos(one of the best players down there) at the break last week. I'd have to go back down there to get it, which I really don't feel like doing tonight and it's assuming that the same WiiU is even there. The entire time I was using the custom though I don't think I got punished for it even once, you'd be surprised at how much milage I got out of it.

Do you know if the explosion is transcendent or if the hydrant can be reflected back at us at all?

Not exactly sure but the hydrant I think can be reflected, the explosion cannot though.

Hmm, good point. This is reminding me of Snake's grenades from Brawl. If you struck him after he pulled it out and hit it, you're getting blown up too. However, Dire Hydrant is generated frame 13. Might be a bit slow for the purposes I'm imagining.

The hydrant explodes at Frame 13 but Pacman moves into the air almost immediately. It works great for this sorta thing.

Really? Frame 13 seems kinda slow for this, but if it works, good. Doesn't Nair accomplish this too though?

Not as well. You're often hit out of the nair and it doens't have as good a hitbox either.

I will never suggest to completely replace things. We've got 10 sets, so we've got some (little :\) room to work with.

You have valid points, but I don't know it's worth giving up the other two.

In some cases for some play styles it has to be. If you're Pacman who would rather play defensively or counter defensively instead of haivng stage control then it must be the better custom to use.

Edit: is it really frame 13, I'm using it now and it really seems a lot quicker than that.

 

[BSP]

Edit: is it really frame 13, I'm using it now and it really seems a lot quicker than that.

Maybe it is.

So what would you propose as a set with Dire Hydrant?

 

[Froggy]

Ah, now this gets interesting.
Is the frame data really that good to escape jab combos? I may have to look into that.
This was a hydrant that I wanted to use, but it just never made the cut. I wanted the versatility of the other hydrants, so I kinda shunned the defensive capabilities of this one.
It is the better anti air. I'll definitely give you that (except it can't stop Rosa's Uair juggles unlike the other two)
It also is kind of punishable on shield since you come back down to where you started as the move ends.

Your reasoning seems solid though.
But what matchup would you prefer this in? An extra defensive option is cool, but is it necessary? It may be kind of redundant with the all of the other defensive options we already have.
We are playing Pac-Man after all

Edit: Eh... F13?

I've been trying it out lately to break jab combos, it definitely works on slower ones like Ike's, someone will have to test the frame data to see how consistently it works.(why can't it stops Rosalina's uair juggles? What am I missing?)

You have no recovery when you land on the ground so you should be safe unless your opponent perfect shields it,to be honest though being punished on shield isn't something I can attest to too much because it seems to always hit. It's like using the up b out of shield, how often does that actually miss? If anything it whiffs rather than your opponent blocking it.

Against rush down characters like Diddy and Bowser it's very helpful. An extra defensive option may not be necessary but neither is additional stage control options imo. It's about playing the game you're most comfortable with, Pacman is so versatile and his play style allows for such expression that insist he needs to played a certain way defeats the point of the characters design imo.

Maybe it is.

So what would you propose as a set with Dire Hydrant?

1113 I think definitely needs to be a custom set.

 

[Nu~]

I've been trying it out lately to break jab combos, it definitely works on slower ones like Ike's, someone will have to test the frame data to see how consistently it works.(why can't it stops Rosalina's uair juggles? What am I missing?)

You have no recovery when you land on the ground so you should be safe unless your opponent perfect shields it,to be honest though being punished on shield isn't something I can attest to too much because it seems to always hit. It's like using the up b out of shield, how often does that actually miss? If anything it whiffs rather than your opponent blocking it.

Against rush down characters like Diddy and Bowser it's very helpful. An extra defensive option may not be necessary but neither is additional stage control options imo. It's about playing the game you're most comfortable with, Pacman is so versatile and his play style allows for such expression that insist he needs to played a certain way defeats the point of the characters design imo.



1113 I think definitely needs to be a custom set.

I never claimed that he needed to be played a certain way, I'm one of the biggest advocates for Pac-Man's versatility on this site! Lol

I just wanted to know if it was necessary at all. The hydrant isn't simply an extra stage control tool, it's a big part of our game, if not the biggest stage control tool. But the best part is that It's so much more. It's bait, a fruit launcher, anti air, kill move...it's one of the most versatile tools we have. Versatility, flexibility, and an option for every situation is the main idea of Pac-Man. The big picture.
I wouldn't look at the default and on fire hydrants as merely having one role.


If dire hydrant is going to take a spot, it would have to have just as big (or more of) an impact in the defensive direction. Otherwise, it seems kinda unnecessary.

Strengthening our defense, or maintaining maximum versatility? It better be some pretty damn good defense then.
For example, Power Pac Jump throws away the stage control and anti approach option, for aggression, kill confirms, and combos.

Is dire hydrant just as good for the defensive direction? The opportunity cost in this situation is a lot higher.

I know I speak for many when I say that Pac-Man needs 20 custom sets, but we have to choose our 10 wisely.

Oh, and dire hydrant doesn't pass through Rosa's Uair unlike the others. It blows up on impact, and rosa walks away unscathed.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Yeah I played with Dire Hydrant and used it against Rosa's ZuAir and when it didn't hit I thought: "You had one job"

 

[NimbusSpark]

I just wanted to know if it was necessary at all. The hydrant isn't simply an extra stage control tool, it's a big part of our game, if not the biggest stage control tool. But the best part is that It's so much more. It's bait, a fruit launcher, anti air, kill move...it's one of the most versatile tools we have. Versatility, flexibility, and an option for every situation is the main idea of Pac-Man. The big picture.

I honestly have to (and want to) agree with Pacman9 here. Pac-Man's biggest strength is easily his versatility, and removing a good deal with his options just for an exploding hydrant doesn't seem like a good idea.
Without the Standard/On-Fire hydrant, we end up losing a kill move, stage control through the blasts of water/fire, Dire Hydrant even reduces our anti-juggle ability somewhat as the hydrant literally explodes after a certain distance and doesn't let us space enemies apart from us.

Pac losing his versatility essentially equals Pac losing how unique he is.

 

[Firedemon0]

I have been testing the custom moves very extensively. Dire Hydrant is a horrible move. It doesn't kill, has a max fall distance. It doesn't protect you from attacks. The explosion does less then both hydrants when dropped. It does not stall in air. It passes through people. Wario cannot be forced to eat it, Rosalina doesn't care for it. It does nothing to really disrupt the opponents gameplan at all honestly. It's lag also forces you to land if used on the ground.

I would rather implement enticing pellet for some form of wind box shenanigans before I would consider dire hydrant sets. It is more disruptive because Customs on is wind box central.

 

[Froggy]

I never claimed that he needed to be played a certain way, I'm one of the biggest advocates for Pac-Man's versatility on this site! Lol

I just wanted to know if it was necessary at all. The hydrant isn't simply an extra stage control tool, it's a big part of our game, if not the biggest stage control tool. But the best part is that It's so much more. It's bait, a fruit launcher, anti air, kill move...it's one of the most versatile tools we have. Versatility, flexibility, and an option for every situation is the main idea of Pac-Man. The big picture.
I wouldn't look at the default and on fire hydrants as merely having one role.


If dire hydrant is going to take a spot, it would have to have just as big (or more of) an impact in the defensive direction. Otherwise, it seems kinda unnecessary.

Strengthening our defense, or maintaining maximum versatility? It better be some pretty damn good defense then.
For example, Power Pac Jump throws away the stage control and anti approach option, for aggression, kill confirms, and combos.

Is dire hydrant just as good for the defensive direction? The opportunity cost in this situation is a lot higher.

I know I speak for many when I say that Pac-Man needs 20 custom sets, but we have to choose our 10 wisely.

Oh, and dire hydrant doesn't pass through Rosa's Uair unlike the others. It blows up on impact, and rosa walks away unscathed.

I admit Pacman does loose versatility without the Hydrant. Playing dire hydrant requires you to rethink a lot of your approach to the character.

Personally I do not find the default Hydrant to be that good, it is entirely gimmicky in my opinion and will not be effective against opponents who are well experienced against Pacman(to be fair a lot of people aren’t). Poeple are not just going to just stand there and let you drop a hydrant on top of them, or key throw launch it into them or gush dash grab or upsmash them. It becomes entirely situational and lucky for you to get good damage from it against a sensible opponent and if you’re someone like me who doesn’t think it’s worth it to trade almost your entire moveset for the ability to item drop and throw your fruits in multiple directions then really how useful is the default hydrant?(I concede the on-fire hydrant is likely a better custom. )I think you are overrating how great the default hydrant is against an intelligent opponent(one who knows when the water blasts out, and what attacks launch it within a single strike)

What you get instead is a Pacman who is deceptively powerful in neutral. I don’t think you can appreciate how strong the up b down b defensive mix up is until you’ve mastered it and then implemented it. Once you’ve counter hit your opponent with both attacks enough times the amount of respect they’re forced to give your shield and your character in general is incredible.

Comparing the dire hydrant to the default hydrant, instead of baiting and spacing you’re instead actually fighting in neutral. That's the dire hydrant is the custom you'd prefer if thats your play style.

I honestly have to (and want to) agree with Pacman9 here. Pac-Man's biggest strength is easily his versatility, and removing a good deal with his options just for an exploding hydrant doesn't seem like a good idea.
Without the Standard/On-Fire hydrant, we end up losing a kill move, stage control through the blasts of water/fire, Dire Hydrant even reduces our anti-juggle ability somewhat as the hydrant literally explodes after a certain distance and doesn't let us space enemies apart from us.
Pac losing his versatility essentially equals Pac losing how unique he is.

I really believe(like I was before) that you think this way because you really haven’t learned how to fight without centering your game around the hydrant. We all need to remember that against higher level opponents(particularly people who actually understand the Pacman matchup) the Hydrant becomes less useful, see my above response to Pacman9 about that.

Also you have it wrong about the juggling , it increases your anti-juggling ability not decreases it, if your opponent is getting hit by the hydrant below where the Dire Hydarant explodes, then he is one of those idiots who don’t know how to play against Pacman(and they’re a lot of them) who I referred to earlier, and we shouldn’t be planning our custom sets around them.