Pac-Man Custom Moveset Discussion

[WeirdChillFever]

Freaky Melon roasts any diagonal angles

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Double post for a breakthrough in Freaky Fruit analysis.

I think Freaky Fruit is the to go fruit for Battlefield.

-Cherry can dance around platforms
-Place Strawberry so that it travels between the outer platforms
-Orange is just Orange.
-Apple is the biggest gainer here.
On FD, Apple is just a weak, spotdodgeable piece of carbon.
On Battlefield, you can let it crawl over platforms, snipe opponents through them and let it crawl to the ledge over three different heights.
Aim Apple right, and you can harass every part of the stage.
-Melon is easier to catch thanks to platforms, and you can land it more often thanks to the verticality of the stage.
-Galaxian hits upwards and covers two layers of the stage.
-Bell and Key don't get much mileage out of it.

 

[Nu~]

Excellent!

A less than favorable stage for us just became an amazing one

 

[WeirdChillFever]

If all else fails, play King of the Hill with On-Fire Hydrant and Freaky Apple.

 

[Nu~]

3121 combo.

This set is definitely unique from the rest in how it trades trampoline stage control for a stronger OoS option and a better tool in advantage.

lazy fruit helps remedy this lack of stage control by giving us powerful obstacles/mines that we can combo off of or Z drop to our hearts content. The regular hydrant helps us fruit gush, but you can trade it for on fire hydrant if you feel that lazy fruit isn't giving you enough defense.

 

[Nu~]

Bonus fruit and Freaky fruit should take up most of our sets. Lazy fruit is the worst one imo. Limited amount of kill confirms and hard to use in mid range.
Apple and Melon are near useless outside of making walls, but even then, recatching them to make sure they can't be caught by the opponent is a big commitment. Orange, galaxian, bell, and key are the only good ones imo.

I also can't think of too many matchups to use them in (especially since Abadango's showed that pikachu can be handled just fine without them). I feel that freaky fruit gives the better stage control and rush down.

Lazy fruit is phenomenal with power pac jump though, so I guess you can use this against people who don't care about trampoline like peach, greninja, or jigglypuff

 

[Froggy]

Bonus fruit and Freaky fruit should take up most of our sets. Lazy fruit is the worst one imo. Limited amount of kill confirms and hard to use in mid range.
Apple and Melon are near useless outside of making walls, but even then, recatching them to make sure they can't be caught by the opponent is a big commitment. Orange, galaxian, bell, and key are the only good ones imo.

I also can't think of too many matchups to use them in (especially since Abadango's showed that pikachu can be handled just fine without them). I feel that freaky fruit gives the better stage control and rush down.

Lazy fruit is phenomenal with power pac jump though, so I guess you can use this against people who don't care about trampoline like peach, greninja, or jigglypuff

I really just don't think Freaky Fruit is that good, Lazy fruit is much better for walling, fruit catching, zoning on platforms abd edge guarding. I'd take it over Freaky Fruit any day.

I'm for either a 5-Bonus, 3-Lazy, 2-Freaky system or a 4-Bonus, 4-Lazy, 2-Freaky system.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Problem with Freaky is is that it is a side-grade that doesn't exactly excel against one character on on one stage.
It's good, but fully dependent on player's taste, as it's almost never "better" than Bonus Fruit.
Sure, Battlefield and Sheik are nice, but it's more a different style of play than an upgrade.

 

[Nu~]

I really just don't think Freaky Fruit is that good, Lazy fruit is much better for walling, fruit catching, zoning on platforms abd edge guarding. I'd take it over Freaky Fruit any day.

I'm for either a 5-Bonus, 3-Lazy, 2-Freaky system or a 4-Bonus, 4-Lazy, 2-Freaky system.

Meanwhile, freaky fruit is better for killing, stage control, CQC, long range, and mid range.

I do not think there should be more than 2 lazy fruit sets. Even in your matches, my theory on lazy fruit's ease of being stolen was shown. You have to throw your lazy fruit twice or the opponent can steal your fruit no problem.

I don't mean to be rude, but can you give me an example of a matchup that lazy fruit is better than bonus fruit or freaky fruit?

@ WeirdChillFever
I see what you mean, but having different strengths and weaknesses can give us the edge in matchups we haven't had the advantage in before.

They may be only equal in strength, but having more options gives us more opportunities to beat our opponent.

A system of 4 bonus fruit, 4 Freaky fruit, and 2 lazy is what I would like to see. And lazy fruit should be paired with default trampoline and or power pac jump. It does not have very good synergy with the meteor trampoline

Edit: 3 bonus, 4 freaky, and 3 lazy is better. Bonus is already paired best with its other default specials, so we don't need another set for it.

 

[Froggy]

Meanwhile, freaky fruit is better for killing, stage control, CQC, long range, and mid range.

I do not think there should be more than 2 lazy fruit sets. Even in your matches, my theory on lazy fruit's ease of being stolen was shown. You have to throw your lazy fruit twice or the opponent can steal your fruit no problem.

I don't mean to be rude, but can you give me an example of a matchup that lazy fruit is better than bonus fruit or freaky fruit?

@ WeirdChillFever
I see what you mean, but having different strengths and weaknesses can give us the edge in matchups we haven't had the advantage in before.

They may be only equal in strength, but having more options gives us more opportunities to beat our opponent.

A system of 4 bonus fruit, 4 Freaky fruit, and 2 lazy is what I would like to see. And lazy fruit should be paired with default trampoline and or power pac jump. It does not have very good synergy with the meteor trampoline

I just disagree that Freaky is any better for killing or stage control, the CQC is debateable as well. Freaky has only two fruits that can kill (Strawberry into smash attack, and Grapefruit) while Lazy has 3(Apple, Grapefruit and Bell into smash attack) which covers a wider array of angles with better versitility.

Not sure how Freaky has better stage control, Lazy actually limits where your opponents can go and makes taking into the air a hazzard. And your opponent catching a fruit is only a problem in match ups where you lose to the opponents special moves without your fruit (Having your fruit stolen against Duck Hunt is a problem, having it stolen by Shulk is not).

My bigger issue with Freaky is that it's defeats the entire purpose of the fruit which is a verstile list of options. It has 3 fruits which are useful except in the most bizzare and unlikely case of scenarios. The fact that the spaceship should be your max charge because the two behind it are useless is just dumb, and the extra options is somethng Pacman desperately needs.

And Lazy is less of a matchup preference than it is a stage preference. It tends to be very good on stages with platforms so that your opponent can't reckless jump at you or over your trampolene/hydrant, I do however like it against fast opponents with the exception of Shiek. Not sure what you get the idea that Lazy should be coupled with the PPJ, I think Freaky is really the only fruit that should be coupled with that. Lazy is better with default/meteor trampolene and On-Fire hydrant.

 

[Nu~]

I just disagree that Freaky is any better for killing or stage control, the CQC is debateable as well. Freaky has onll two fruits that can kill (Strawberry into smash attack, and Grapefruit) while Lazy has 3(Apple, Grapefruit and Bell into smash attack) which covers a wider array of angles with better versitility.

Not sure how Freaky has better stage control, Lazy actually limits where your opponents can go and makes taking into the air a hazzard. And your opponent catching a fruit is only a problem in match ups where you lose to the opponents special moves without your fruit (Having your fruit stolen against Duck Hunt is a problem, having it stolen by Shulk is not).

My bigger issue with Freaky is that it's defeats the entire purpose of the fruit which is a verstile list of options. It has 3 fruits which are useful except in the most bizzare and unlikely case of scenarios. The fact that the spaceship should be your max charge because the two behind it are useless is just dumb, and the extra options is somethng Pacman desperately needs.

And Lazy is less of a matchup preference than it is a stage preference. It tends to be very good on stages with platforms so that your opponent can't reckless jump at you or over your trampolene/hydrant, I do however like it against fast opponents with the exception of Shiek. Not sure what you get the idea that Lazy should be coupled with the PPJ, I think Freaky is really the only fruit that should be coupled with that. Lazy is better with trampolene and On-Fire hydrant.

Cherry into smash attack, strawberry into smash attack, melon, bell, and key meteor smash. Meanwhile, the lazy Apple and melon cover very hard to kill with trajectories, and the bell is extremely hard to catch someone with unless you have a set up going with it (and are standing right next to it).

Taking to the air isn't a hazardous ordeal when I can just attack your fruit and cancel its hitbox, or air dodge to catch it. It stays in one place too long. An apple that bounces up and down in a predicable manner is not threatening. You have to be near your lazy fruit, ready to punish my next move for it to be threatening.


Lazy fruit has more versatility?? Pls.

They stay out for a longer time to give you more walling capabilities and the ability to make a minefield. Meanwhile, freaky fruit can bring opponents to you, eat opposing projectiles (something that lazy fruit sucks at because of the key and galaxian's lower damage), snipe people from the other side of the stage, spike...there is no freaky fruit that is useless. It just sounds like you haven't researched freaky fruit enough.
I say that freaky fruit has better stage control because they bounce away and back to you instead of just up and down.
They also cover many more angles.

Cherry and strawberry start combos (and kill comfirms) and can stop opponents from SH approaching and dash grabbing. They also can cover more area depending on the height at which you threw them at.

Orange can snipe from the other end of the stage, disrupt approaches, and gimp.

Apple can be ran behind, take control of platforms, edgeuard, cover opponents that are trying to hit you from underneath, and deter SH approaches.

Melon smokes any diagonal approaches, Insta launches the hydrant, kills, and takes up a large portion of the air around us. It even comes back to us for easy Z dropping unlike any lazy fruit.

Galaxian beats other projectiles, combos, Insta launches the hydrant since it bounces twice (and gives a really good 80 degree angle for the hydrant) and can be used as a boomerang.

Bell kills as early as 110% on mid weights, drags people into the air, can combo off of Fair, and scoops up SH approaches.

Key can...well, spike. And if you let the opponent hit you with a weak attack or hurt yourself with the hydrant, you can drop it and pick it up for a fast Z droppable spike. Hydrant drop -> key is a combo.

Edit: Oh, and for lazy fruit going well with PPJ, I say that because while lazy fruit defends you well (when you are next to it) it also takes away aggression. PPJ gives you kill confirms off of your lazy fruit. You also won't miss the regular trampoline as much because lazy fruit already gives you a good wall to hide behind.

Lazy is good with on fire, I'll give you that. But it isn't nearly as good as 2132.

 

[Nu~]

I feel that lazy fruit rewards a more hyper defensive playstyle while freaky fruit is for people who know how to take advantage of the unorthodox

 

[Froggy]

Cherry into smash attack, strawberry into smash attack, melon, bell, and key meteor smash. Meanwhile, the lazy Apple and melon cover very hard to kill with trajectories, and the bell is extremely hard to catch someone with unless you have a set up going with it (and are standing right next to it).

Taking to the air isn't a hazardous ordeal when I can just attack your fruit and cancel its hitbox, or air dodge to catch it. It stays in one place too long. An apple that bounces up and down in a predicable manner is not threatening. You have to be near your lazy fruit, ready to punish my next move for it to be threatening.


Lazy fruit has more versatility?? Pls.

They stay out for a longer time to give you more walling capabilities and the ability to make a minefield. Meanwhile, freaky fruit can bring opponents to you, eat opposing projectiles (something that lazy fruit sucks at because of the key and galaxian's lower damage), snipe people from the other side of the stage, spike...there is no freaky fruit that is useless. It just sounds like you haven't researched freaky fruit enough.
I say that freaky fruit has better stage control because they bounce away and back to you instead of just up and down.
They also cover many more angles.

Cherry and strawberry start combos (and kill comfirms) and can stop opponents from SH approaching and dash grabbing. They also can cover more area depending on the height at which you threw them at.

Orange can snipe from the other end of the stage, disrupt approaches, and gimp.

Apple can be ran behind, take control of platforms, edgeuard, cover opponents that are trying to hit you from underneath, and deter SH approaches.

Melon smokes any diagonal approaches, Insta launches the hydrant, kills, and takes up a large portion of the air around us. It even comes back to us for easy Z dropping unlike any lazy fruit.

Galaxian beats other projectiles, combos, Insta launches the hydrant since it bounces twice (and gives a really good 80 degree angle for the hydrant) and can be used as a boomerang.

Bell kills as early as 110% on mid weights, drags people into the air, can combo off of Fair, and scoops up SH approaches.

Key can...well, spike. And if you let the opponent hit you with a weak attack or hurt yourself with the hydrant, you can drop it and pick it up for a fast Z droppable spike. Hydrant drop -> key is a combo.

Edit: Oh, and for lazy fruit going well with PPJ, I say that because while lazy fruit defends you well (when you are next to it) it also takes away aggression. PPJ gives you kill confirms off of your lazy fruit. You also won't miss the regular trampoline as much because lazy fruit already gives you a good wall to hide behind.

Lazy is good with on fire, I'll give you that. But it isn't nearly as good as 2132.

Jesus you're looking at Freaky through some rose colored lens if you believe any of that is true.

Like the other fruits Freaky strawberry is for the most part useless, only a complete idiot is going to get hit by it, it's at time helpful because it doesn't take a charge but you're not going to reliably get kills from it, you're being disingenuos if you claim otherwise.

Running behind the appeal is just weak, it moves to quickly for you to reatch if your opponent is at mid range, and unlike bonus melon/galaxian it doesn't kill or multi-hit. It's just not a good option.

Won't deny the usefulness of the orange/galaxian that makes it 4 usefull fruits instead of 3, my bad. But the galaxian breaking projectiles is only good in camping matchups and against Luigi, and in camping matches up you have no business using the Freaky fruit, bonus is always superior for that.

You're just full of crap about the bell killing at 110% on mid-weights, it may launch them pretty high but you're looking of upwards of 140% for kills unless you are in full rage, you may need to test it out somemore, it is deceptively weak.

And @ WeirdChillFever mentioned in a previous post the Freaky key is largely useless because when you charge it up it doesn't spike because either you couldn't get them off stage, or you couldn't hit them with it once you got the off stage.

As for stage control / versitility you're talking about exactly two fruits that bounce back to you. While ALL, I repeat ALL of Lazy's fruits stay out on the stage for an additional amount of time. And I must say that this one step thinking of yours is the exact logic that got the default trampoline banned out of the current sets. Firstly a lot of hit box won't beat the Lazy fruits, secondly they must commit to a hitbox earlier on, which is not their intention if they want ot hit you, and if they do commit to the early hitnox it leaves them punishable, your opponent throwing a hitbox to deal with the Lazy fruit is good for Pacman and it is a part of the customs appeal. I had thought that was obvious.

And you miss the point of Lazy if you think you won't miss the default trampolene, the idea isn't to use it as a substitute wall, the idea is to use it to build a better wall.

 

[Nu~]

Jesus you're looking at Freaky through some rose colored lens if you believe any of that is true.

Your temper is back.

Like the other fruits Freaky strawberry is for the most part useless, only a complete idiot is going to get hit by it, it's at time helpful because it doesn't take a charge but you're not going to reliably get kills from it, you're being disingenuos if you claim otherwise.

You are a great comedian. You are telling me that an opponent will never get hit by an item tossed strawberry? A frame 4~ item tossed strawberry will never land against anyone with a brain.
Ok.

Running behind the appeal is just weak, it moves to quickly for you to reatch if your opponent is at mid range, and unlike bonus melon/galaxian it doesn't kill or multi-hit. It's just not a good option.

It's not for recatching, it's to force the opponent to shield and give you a trampoline follow up. It's not the best option, but it still is useful.

Won't deny the usefulness of the orange/galaxian that makes it 4 usefull fruits instead of 3, my bad. But the galaxian breaking projectiles is only good in camping matchups and against Luigi, and in camping matches up you have no business using the Freaky fruit, bonus is always superior for that.

It's better against a campy Shiek, and beating out projectiles isn't the only thing it is useful for. Galaxian also comes back to you for Z dropped hydrant launches. Why did you just ignore that part?

You're just full of crap about the bell killing at 110% on mid-weights, it may launch them pretty high but you're looking of upwards of 140% for kills unless you are in full rage, you may need to test it out somemore, it is deceptively weak.

Captain falcon dies at 141 to a freaky bell. A fast falling heavyweight. Meanwhile pit dies at 120. Both with no rage.

Admittably, I may have messed up my numbers when trying to recall from memory, but you are flat out lying if you thing mid weights will die above 140%.

And @ WeirdChillFever mentioned in a previous post the Freaky key is largely useless because when you charge it up it doesn't spike because either you couldn't get them off stage, or you couldn't hit them with it once you got the off stage.

That's cool. I'm guessing you've forgot that having a z droppable spike onstage is still good considering the high hitstun. Combo it into nair, Bair, and footstools. A spike isn't only for offstage use. You say I have a lack of foresight, yet the only one here missing the bigger picture is you. You have come at me so far with nothing but exaggerations and a linear line of thought for each fruit's use instead of looking at the full picture of what each fruit can do. I'll admit that I have been rather optimistic, but so far, you have shown me nothing except that you have a horrible temper.

As for stage control / versitility you're talking about exactly two fruits that bounce back to you. While ALL, I repeat ALL of Lazy's fruits stay out on the stage for an additional amount of time. And I must say that this one step thinking of yours is the exact logic that got the default trampoline banned out of the current sets. Firstly a lot of hit box won't beat the Lazy fruits, secondly they must commit to a hitbox earlier on, which is not their intention if they want ot hit you, and if they do commit to the early hitnox it leaves them punishable, your opponent throwing a hitbox to deal with the Lazy fruit is good for Pacman and it is a part of the customs appeal. I had thought that was obvious.

I count cherry, strawberry, melon, and galaxian. Please don't lie to me.
You KNOW that lazy fruit has low priority. Many melee attacks will beat them and nullify the hitbox. And here comes the anger at me for the custom sets. Yes, blame it all on me. Better yet, call it a lack of foresight again. Do you really know what it means to be short-sighted? Every lazy fruit stays out and only 4 freaky fruit do. Somehow this makes me short-sighted? Freaky fruit gives you better stage control because they aren't as easy to avoid and give you control over more space. A freaky melon covers more space than a lazy one. If anything, what's going on here is that you are missing the point of freaky fruit's ability to cover more area than lazy fruit. Lazy fruit can close off one piece of the stage, while half of the freaky fruit cover horizontal and vertical space. I can compare the space that lazy fruit takes up to a totem pole, while freaky strawberry and melon create different types of rainbows, the galaxian makes a U turn, and the cherry just blocks off a chunk of the stage for a while that grows bigger as it bounces more.

Ok, now you change up your argument. I already stated that you have to be near your lazy fruit to punish them for attacking them. Now you are trying to use my reasoning against me by saying the same thing? We both agree on that part. I'm saying that lazy fruit are very vulnerable as a wall when you aren't near them. You aren't considering the options an opponent has to outmaneuver your "lazy fruit wall". Adding trampoline and on fire hydrant helps, but even then, the fruit don't help as much as freaky fruit do because they don't serve as many purposes. All of them do the same thing. Linger. And a fruit that lingers in one place isn't scary because it's an item. The reason why lazy fruit isn't as scary as dense charge shot or lucario's suction aura spheres is because our fruit can be dealt with much easier die to the fact that they are low priority items. With freaky fruit, we can always be next to our lingering fruit since they cover more room. We can always accompany our fruit, even when moving. then when you don't need a wall, freaky fruit can still help with its other various uses.

you miss the point of Lazy if you think you won't miss the default trampolene, the idea isn't to use it as a substitute wall, the idea is to use it to build a better wall.

Except it makes a rather weak wall since it doesn't cover a lot of space. Remember, fruits can't wall out the opponent on their own. They are best used as an extension of Pac-Man's fist.
I don't see how a fruit that bounces up and down makes a dangerous wall when I can just steal it.

Look dude, I don't want to be enemies, but what's up with all of this baseless ad hominem?

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Jesus you're looking at Freaky through some rose colored lens if you believe any of that is true.

Like the other fruits Freaky strawberry is for the most part useless, only a complete idiot is going to get hit by it, it's at time helpful because it doesn't take a charge but you're not going to reliably get kills from it, you're being disingenuos if you claim otherwise.

Running behind the appeal is just weak, it moves to quickly for you to reatch if your opponent is at mid range, and unlike bonus melon/galaxian it doesn't kill or multi-hit. It's just not a good option.

Won't deny the usefulness of the orange/galaxian that makes it 4 usefull fruits instead of 3, my bad. But the galaxian breaking projectiles is only good in camping matchups and against Luigi, and in camping matches up you have no business using the Freaky fruit, bonus is always superior for that.

You're just full of crap about the bell killing at 110% on mid-weights, it may launch them pretty high but you're looking of upwards of 140% for kills unless you are in full rage, you may need to test it out somemore, it is deceptively weak.

And @ WeirdChillFever mentioned in a previous post the Freaky key is largely useless because when you charge it up it doesn't spike because either you couldn't get them off stage, or you couldn't hit them with it once you got the off stage.

As for stage control / versitility you're talking about exactly two fruits that bounce back to you. While ALL, I repeat ALL of Lazy's fruits stay out on the stage for an additional amount of time. And I must say that this one step thinking of yours is the exact logic that got the default trampoline banned out of the current sets. Firstly a lot of hit box won't beat the Lazy fruits, secondly they must commit to a hitbox earlier on, which is not their intention if they want ot hit you, and if they do commit to the early hitnox it leaves them punishable, your opponent throwing a hitbox to deal with the Lazy fruit is good for Pacman and it is a part of the customs appeal. I had thought that was obvious.

And you miss the point of Lazy if you think you won't miss the default trampolene, the idea isn't to use it as a substitute wall, the idea is to use it to build a better wall.

Galaxian is Default Key and should be treated as the Key (aka your last fruit)

Bell can launch, sure, but Galaxian does the same over the entire field.
Key is not useless, but VERY high risk with the reward of a hard to land spike.

Apple is gold.
On Battlefield.
On FD it's a weak, wet carbon copy of it's former glory, but on Battlefield it's really great, closing off multiple layers of the stage.

Though some Freaky Fruits are more useful than the rest, Lazy Fruit has multiple fruits going at the same trajectory, little of them directly horizontal.

EDIT:
What Freaky Fruit can cover on Battlefield:

Cherry covers a diagonal line between the left (or right) and top platform (thrown from top platform)
Strawberry covers an arc between the left and right platform (thrown from either platform)
Orange covers a straight line
Apple covers the top platform, the side platform and the ledge (thrown from top platform
Melon covers an arc over the top platform (thrown from side platform)
Galaxian covers a straight line, twice. Then you catch it and cover the same area again.
Bell covers a vertical straight line
Key covers nothing but a kill.

 

[Froggy]

Been a while since I've taken an argument this far but here goes.

Your temper is back.

You are not an Empath. Do not assume what my feelings are based on texts on the internet. My sentiment from that statement is to express to you surprise and slight bewilderment, there isn't a trace of anger within it.

You are a great comedian. You are telling me that an opponent will never get hit by an item tossed strawberry? A frame 4~ item tossed strawberry will never land against anyone with a brain.
Ok..

It will not land against anyone with a brain, in a situaton where it will lead to a kill, against an opponent who knwos what the fruit does and has eyes to see that it's in Pacman's hand. Also "never" was your word, the point I'm sayng is that it's impractical and to count it as a legit reliable kill setup is silly. Also notice that I'm not complaining about your sarcasim and extrapolating that you have a temper for it. It's petty.

It's not for recatching, it's to force the opponent to shield and give you a trampoline follow up. It's not the best option, but it still is useful.

It's only useful relative to the other weak options for running behind your fruit that freaky provides. My point in comparing it to the bonus galaxian and melon is that it would be much more useful to run behind those fruits but freaky gives no fruit to do that with a comparable utility.

It's better against a campy Shiek, and beating out projectiles isn't the only thing it is useful for. Galaxian also comes back to you for Z dropped hydrant launches. Why did you just ignore that part?.

Freaky is probably useful against Shiek which is why I'm not foolishly stating it doesn't deserve to be in any custom set. Also recatching the galaxian woud be useful if it came back at more reliable angle instead of quite literally random. And I've already conceeded freaky galaxian is not useless, therefore there is nothing more for me to admit on this point. But since you're stressing the point it's worth mentioning that Lazy galaxian is far better. On hit you can get nearly(perhaps more) 50 % damage by continuously bairing them into while they're at 0 %, you recatch fair into into a rethrow for even more damage. Anyone who landed this in battle knows it's freakin sick.

Captain falcon dies at 141 to a freaky bell. A fast falling heavyweight. Meanwhile pit dies at 120. Both with no rage.

Admittably, I may have messed up my numbers when trying to recall from memory, but you are flat out lying if you thing mid weights will die above 140%.

At exactly what point of the stage are you claming this is from? If it's near the ceiling then yeah, but at the center of the stage there is no way that is correct. Unless they have buffed it since then last time I tested out which as far as I'm aware of is not the case.

That's cool. I'm guessing you've forgot that having a z droppable spike onstage is still good considering the high hitstun. Combo it into nair, Bair, and footstools. A spike isn't only for offstage use. You say I have a lack of foresight, yet the only one here missing the bigger picture is you. You have come at me so far with nothing but exaggerations and a linear line of thought for each fruit's use instead of looking at the full picture of what each fruit can do. I'll admit that I have been rather optimistic, but so far, you have shown me nothing except that you have a horrible temper..

A Z droppable spike would be a lot cooler if there was a way to recatch it without getting hit(I must admit I have a hard time believing you forgot this rather than it being hyperbolic nonsense on your end). I am not making any exaggerations, you're the one with faulty arguments and misleading claims. Rather than me being linear minded about what each fruit can do you're overstating the uses and focusing too much on the indivdual fruits instead of looking at the wholistic utility of the 8 fruit custom set. Again stop telling me how I feel, don't sit there and paint a picture of you being calm and rational and me being angry. Reading through the posts that's just not the narrative here, and when I get upset I'll let you know.

I count cherry, strawberry, melon, and galaxian. Please don't lie to me...

And now, not before this point, NOW I do have a mild feeling of frustration. You must not be able to count because there is also orange, apple, bell and key. With the 4 you mentioned and the 4 I mentioned that = 8(4+4=8) there are 8 fruits in Lazy so that means it's all of them(8 == all), no lies here. I don't know even know what your point was with that.

You KNOW that lazy fruit has low priority. Many melee attacks will beat them and nullify the hitbox. And here comes the anger at me for the custom sets. Yes, blame it all on me. Better yet, call it a lack of foresight again. Do you really know what it means to be short-sighted? Every lazy fruit stays out and only 4 freaky fruit do. Somehow this makes me short-sighted? Freaky fruit gives you better stage control because they aren't as easy to avoid and give you control over more space. A freaky melon covers more space than a lazy one. If anything, what's going on here is that you are missing the point of freaky fruit's ability to cover more area than lazy fruit. Lazy fruit can close off one piece of the stage, while half of the freaky fruit cover horizontal and vertical space. I can compare the space that lazy fruit takes up to a totem pole, while freaky strawberry and melon create different types of rainbows, the galaxian makes a U turn, and the cherry just blocks off a chunk of the stage for a while that grows bigger as it bounces more

That the Freaky fruit is easier to avoid is mostly is a completely crap point. It would only make sense if the fruits were thrown in similar ways, I mean the whole theme of Lazy fruit is that the fruits are slower so no **** they're easier to avoid, it's not to be used like Bonus thrown from a neutral position hoping it hits. The Apple/Melon stuffs areal approaches, Orange, keys and galaxian stuffs grounded approaches but the fruits aren't mean to be stand alone, the whole reason they move slower is to allow Pacman to act in unison with their on stage hurt boxes. The reason Lazy offers better stage control is because portions of the stage are covered with a slow moving hit box giving Pacman more freedom to approach as your opponents options are restricted. Have you really been triyng to use Lazy fruit like Bonus fruit this entire time? C'mon thats just silly. And to be specific the freaky melon doesn't cover more space than the lazy melon because covering the space 3/4ths of the stage above you is mostly useless. I've already stated why the freaky strawberry would not be helpful in covering more space than the grounded Lazy fruits. Honestly you're talking like someone who does not main Pacman. And I mentioned the customs not as an attack but to remind you that you need to think differnetly now than you did before.

Ok, now you change up your argument. I already stated that you have to be near your lazy fruit to punish them for attacking them. Now you are trying to use my reasoning against me by saying the same thing? We both agree on that part. I'm saying that lazy fruit are very vulnerable as a wall when you aren't near them. You aren't considering the options an opponent has to outmaneuver your "lazy fruit wall". Adding trampoline and on fire hydrant helps, but even then, the fruit don't help as much as freaky fruit do because they don't serve as many purposes. All of them do the same thing. Linger. And a fruit that lingers in one place isn't scary because it's an item. The reason why lazy fruit isn't as scary as dense charge shot or lucario's suction aura spheres is because our fruit can be dealt with much easier die to the fact that they are low priority items. With freaky fruit, we can always be next to our lingering fruit since they cover more room. We can always accompany our fruit, even when moving. then when you don't need a wall, freaky fruit can still help with its other various uses.

Except it makes a rather weak wall since it doesn't cover a lot of space. Remember, fruits can't wall out the opponent on their own. They are best used as an extension of Pac-Man's fist.
I don't see how a fruit that bounces up and down makes a dangerous wall when I can just steal it.

I'm not changing my argument, I am making an additional point. You're the one mentioning using hit boxes to cancel the Lazy fruit out, which I was explaining is both a bad idea on approach(in neutral too btw). And you have it backwards about Freaky fruit giving more options, unless it's item tossed you can't follow up your fruits well at all and certainly nothing approaching the way you can with Lazy fruit. The fruit lingering is only a bad thing if you stand there hoping they move into it, that is when you approach, in the case of apple and melon they're unable to move backwards because they'll get hit and in the case of ornage/key/galaxian they have to respect the hitbox in front of you.

Not to put too fine a point on this but there are only two fruits in Lazy that bounce up and down, also (and perhaps I didn't emphasize this point enough)but the purpose of Lazy Frut isn't just to be used as a better wall but a land mine. If you're opponent dodges the fruit rather than just sitting there and letting them catch you're supposed to either go on the offensive and him them into the fruit or recatch the fruit to use it again without the need of charging it up agian. Lazy fruit is best used when the appropriate balance between walling and hitting your opponent is found. Moreover you already know this so don't pretend to be ignorant in an attmept to boost your argument.

Look dude, I don't want to be enemies, but what's up with all of this baseless ad hominem?

I haven't made a single ad hominem attack on you. I haven't called you an idiot or an asshole. In this post the closest thing is my not like a Pacman comment. But it's not a point I am making as a part of my argument, it's a seperate observation I am making because I don't think you're thinking about any of this in the correct way at all.

And like I in Pacman club I still like you, even if we disagree about everything on these two customs.

@ WeirdChillFever : The problem this custom is going to have is that FD and BF arne't the only two stages in the game. If BF and DL are banned where else is the utility of Freaky fruit truely realized?

 

[Nu~]

@ Froggy
Burn yourself with the on fire hydrant to get the key. Guess I should have been specific with that. And the bell is that strong. It has two hits that combo into each other. Maybe you are only hitting with the first one?


Maybe if you didn't act so hostile in your arguments then I wouldn't have assumed your feelings behind it. Calling me various names like short sighted comes off as hostile.
And you assume that I see myself in a calm light? I see this argument as one big misunderstanding on both ends. This isn't a good vs. evil discussion, so don't assume I view it as such

Every Freaky fruit serves a different purpose. Isn't that what we are looking for here? More versatility overall? But instated you think that they are all gimmicks. Right now, you sound like the countless people that think Pac-Man is gimmicky. The freaky fruit aren't gimmicks, they work well if you use them right. Having multiple options It's better than 8 fruit that all do the same thing imo.
And I was replying to the "only 2 fruit's come back" comment when I listed the four fruits.


I'm talking like someone that doesn't know Pac-Man?
Well let's take your view on lazy fruit in its entirety.

You believe that the fruits make it hard for your opponent to reach you because they cover both aerial and ground approaches by forcing your opponent to do something about it. You approach your opponent when they try to move around it or catch it.

Here is my problem with that:

Even if Pac-Man can approach since a part of the stage is close off, what are we approaching safely with? We have a bad grab and few aerials to poke with. We aren't even fast enough to go after our fruit before the opponent can run up and powershield our fruit or catch it. I used to believe the same thing that you are telling me now, until I realized that Pac-Man can't always follow up on lazy fruit. After opponent's will deal with the fruit faster than we can get to them, and then embarrass you by z dropping it in your face for follow ups. We could try approaching behind Fair hydrants, but that gets predictable.
I haven't been using lazy fruit like bonus fruit, I have just found that lazy fruit isn't as great as you believe it is. It isn't bad, it just isn't the ideal approach destroyer that you want it to be. Fighting a brawler main that just power shielded every "wall" and ran towards me anyway has shown me that lazy fruit aren't that effective. What is your reaction to an opponent that powershields your fruit and continues to rush you down? To use lazy fruit, you need to think differently, but you aren't being honest enough about its weaknesses. They are too linear in purpose and can all be dealt with the similarly (except for the galaxian which I already know is amazing)
In a perfect world, you can shut down any part of the stage you want with lazy fruit, but in this world, we can't. Opponents faster than us will deal with the fruit faster than we can stop them. Just look at your past match with that fox. If he knew the matchup better, I would bet that he would have won easily.
Unless I'm missing something, I don't see how we can benefit off of the lazy fruit before our opponent remembers the pattern and takes them faster than we can punish them.


I say that freaky fruit is better because it lets us be offensive, defensive, and can surround us as we fight. Freaky strawberry bounces back and forth in an area that we can punish opponents in, melon stops diagonal approaches and can be tossed up or down to cover that area if we ever need it. Every fruit can serve a purpose outside of the simple realm of walling the opponent out.

My view of Pac-Man is to use your various tools in creative ways to handle everything your opponent throws at you, and to make your opponent play your game. At first glance, lazy fruit is perfect for making the opponent play your game. When you actually use it though, you realize that it only extrapolates our weakness to shield and exposes our rather weak approaches. If you used lazy fruit on me, I would never approach if I had the lead. I would wait and watch you struggle to get to me safely with fruit that can only act as temporary, weak walls. If you had the lead, I would powershield your fruit and continue to rush you down.

Only if I was using a rush down character though.



It would be hilarious if both of us were using the other's custom fruit wrong lol

Edit: I guess what I'm saying is, lazy fruit loses to both better camping and rush down while freaky fruit and bonus fruit can handle both.

 

[Neutricity]

The best evidence is actual footage of this working in a serious match. I'll used both customs and I have my likes and dislikes.
Hmm I recommend we settle this in smash so we find someone and we murk them with Lazy Fruit and Freaky Fruit.
I also stand by my belief that no Pac-Man player plays the same so you both may be right in your own way @ Nu~ @ Froggy

 

[Nu~]

I also stand by my belief that no Pac-Man player plays the same so you both may be right in your own way @ Nu~ @ Froggy

Very true my friend, very true.

Man, tbh I hate arguing lol. But I always get myself into it.