Out of order, new matchup thread coming soon!

[Seagull Joe]

I think it's like 70-30 Wolf's favor, but yea Dk's will disagree entirely.

And I think Tedeth thinks this match up is different sided too.

Junebug told me he won't go Dk on me because I will just camp and **** his Dk. He beats my Wolf with Dk sometimes, but regularly he just goes Lucario on me.

Dk can kill at like 20% everyone, but getting in Wolf's spacing game is hard itself. Dk's Bair is like the only thing better because it's range is bigger and such. Wolf can bair wall, shield stab at like full, laser camp, and shine gimp Dk. He also is big like D3 so he can be combo'd pretty good. Yet he doesn't have a cg like D3.

Avoid Yoshi's island and it's pretty one sided in my opinion. That stage is the only stage where Dk has a large advantage because of the edges that give auto up b options. Just ban that and you're good.

Dk can Dtilt lock on walls, but so can Wolf so keep that in mind. Shine>aaa true combo if you short hop. Or Shine>Dtilt.

 

[tekkie]

i havent fought a good DK in a while but as usual i think the given ratios so far are waaaaaaaaaay high. 70-30? seriously? maybe if we had an infinite on DK and could guarantee a KO if he left the stage, you know, like Dedede vs Wolf. but no.

i'd say 55:45, probably 60:40 because i havent tried it out in a while.

DK's range is insane and if they PS lasers they have plenty of time to **** your face. pretty sure their ftilt outranges bair. and their bair is better than ours in some ways.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I don't know what to do in that match-up. I just can't beat Luigi player

 

[rvkevin]

i havent fought a good DK in a while but as usual i think the given ratios so far are waaaaaaaaaay high. 70-30? seriously? maybe if we had an infinite on DK and could guarantee a KO if he left the stage, you know, like Dedede vs Wolf. but no.

i'd say 55:45, probably 60:40 because i havent tried it out in a while.

DK's range is insane and if they PS lasers they have plenty of time to **** your face. pretty sure their ftilt outranges bair. and their bair is better than ours in some ways.

DK can't approach in the air, he can't SH over lasers and if he gets hit, he gets turned around making him vulnerable. If he FHs over the lasers, every option is pretty much punished on reaction. When he's approaching on the ground, he is facing towards Wolf. Close up, DK's Fsmash, Side B, Down B, etc. are punishable on shield or Wolf can Jumpshine away. And Wolf's Fair is probably safe on shield while DK doesn't have many options that are safe on shield. Wolf's aerial speed makes him so much better in the air, as well as Bair and Shine outclassing DK's aerials. DK has more trouble gimping Wolf than Wolf does to DK. DK's KO moves are too slow to be reliable so chances are he will kill with aerials. His weight isn't that great for his size and his size makes him more prone to shield pokes. I fail to see one aspect of game play that DK has the advantage. Just camp, and its pretty hopeless for DK.

 

[KRDsonic]

- DK is easy to spike out of his Up B.
- Always DI up and towards the stage when you're offstage and about to get hit (should be obvious).
- Watch out for random Fsmashes.
- Shine works well when you're both in the air.
- If DK techs Dthrow for some reason, you get a free Fsmash on him if you predict where he will roll.
- Our Bair gives him more trouble than his Bair gives us.
- Dsmash will not be used to kill as much in this matchup as it is in most. In my experiences, Fair and Dair are my primary ways of killing in this matchup.
- Don't be afraid of his charged punch. It should not force you to change your playstyle very much at all.
- Do NOT roll towards him (This should be a given in a lot of matchups).
- Grounded lasers aren't as good as areal lasers because areal lasers are better at shield poking.
- Platforms don't seem to help either character more than the other in this matchup.
- Delphino seems to be a good CP stage for DK due to the water. It seems to be one of the few stages where his spikes are actually more useful than ours. I can't think of any stage that's good to pick against DK. I'd say pick whatever stage you're most comfortable with.

It's a fairly straight-forward matchup. Neither character has anything extremely gay on the other. Wolf can get around being edgeguarded to the extreme, DK can get around laser camping, there's a lot of Bairs on both sides, and both sides tend to do best when playing high risk. Wolf is required to play with consistency for this matchup, and DK is required to use more mindgames in this matchup.

I'm not saying a matchup ratio because numbers don't mean anything to me.

 

[castorpollux]

True story:

Turtle quit playing as DK because of me :]

 

[tekkie]

i wont be able to speak with my local rapetastic DK main for a week or so so gimme a while

also we should talk to the DK boards, we suck at talking to other boards

 

[D0N]

I think it's bad, but not 70:30. More like 60:40. 70:30 just makes it sound like DK has absolutely nothing he can do. But I don't care about numbers anyway... I have laser camp experience so I'm not underestimating wolf.

My general thoughts: Without the laser, It's a pretty even fight/slight DK advantage imo. This is just including things like edge gaurding, spacing, b-airs (lol) and kill percents/moves. But since Wolf has a gun, he gets to control the action more and force DK into bad situations (makes him approach). DK's goal is to find a way past the spam in a way that won't get him beat down (may take a few tries...), then do as much damage as he can and/or kill wolf before the situation resets itself. DK gets lots of time to figure out a way inside wolf's camping as long as he can avoid d-smash from wolf, and even if he doesn't avoid it he still can afford to take more punishment than wolf can.

Wolf can edgegaurd DK pretty well, but I think the odds of you shine gimping one are slim and it's probly more trouble than it's worth. There are much more practical options. Spiking DK is easier said than done too, though it's definately an option for us to look out for.

Wolf should pick FD and other large stages and DK should lean towards small stages...

I can say more later... its midterm week...

 

[Seagull Joe]

True story:

Turtle quit playing as DK because of me :]

2 posts from 1000. I wonder what your 1000th post will be. I'm guessing bear roll....

 

[KRDsonic]

Wolf should pick FD and other large stages and DK should lean towards small stages...

FD? I've always been afraid to take DK there even though I fight them all the time. I pretty much only have experience against DK on BF, Smashville, Yoshi's, and PS1 (which seems to be my best stage for fighting DK). I guess camping makes this matchup a lot better? Guess I should do that more.

 

[rvkevin]

FD? I've always been afraid to take DK there even though I fight them all the time. I guess camping makes this matchup a lot better? Guess I should do that more.

If you don't camp, the match up is bearable for DK, if you do, it is unbearable. It pretty much makes DK have as many options as Ganon. FD enables you to camp to your extreme.

 

[tedeth]

I think 60:40 is reasonable. Blaster is just soooooo good in this MU. I'd say this MU is very frustrating for DK, but no more than 60:40 overall imo.

There's a difference between ridiculously frustrating and ridiculously bad.

And yeah FD is amazing. lol.

 

[_Kain_]

Yeah I agree with 60:40...70:30 is **** near DDD status lol. He has options but are blaster n shield poking makes things very hard for him

 

[Gah777]

90:10 because of the chaingrab, laserlock, and wall infinite. Also Wolf has a gun. You don't bring fists to a gunfight

 

[_Kain_]

90:10 because of the chaingrab, laserlock, and wall infinite. Also Wolf has a gun. You don't bring fists to a gunfight

I wish that were true

 

[Luigi player]

loooooooool Wolfs have no idea about DK

Blaster camp???? rofllll u guys must not know about powershielding

DK can't approach in the air, he can't SH over lasers and if he gets hit, he gets turned around making him vulnerable. If he FHs over the lasers, every option is pretty much punished on reaction. When he's approaching on the ground, he is facing towards Wolf. Close up, DK's Fsmash, Side B, Down B, etc. are punishable on shield or Wolf can Jumpshine away. And Wolf's Fair is probably safe on shield while DK doesn't have many options that are safe on shield. Wolf's aerial speed makes him so much better in the air, as well as Bair and Shine outclassing DK's aerials. DK has more trouble gimping Wolf than Wolf does to DK. DK's KO moves are too slow to be reliable so chances are he will kill with aerials. His weight isn't that great for his size and his size makes him more prone to shield pokes. I fail to see one aspect of game play that DK has the advantage. Just camp, and its pretty hopeless for DK.

lol what a joke post. he can control the turn around if he presses the controlstick the way he wants to face.

Close up he does Fsmash? omfg........ <_<
No KO moves? Never heard of dsmash? And uair is pretty strong.
Wolfs air speed is better, but only by a little bit.

Not sure about gimping DK, might work well with shine, but it's easier said then done.
Also DK might have a harder time to gimp Wolf, but he can punish Wolfs recovery really well.

His weight isn't that great for his size? O_o Okay I mean he's not Snake, but ... he is the character that can survive the longest in the game...

At best (for Wolf) it's 55:45 Wolf. I really really doubt it'd be worse than that for DK.

 

[_Kain_]

If your gonna come n reply his is a joke at least argue a lil bit better than u did...soooo since he has no idea about DK (supposedly by u) i've played Ripple and Ook soooo heres what i have to say...

loooooooool Wolfs have no idea about DK

Blaster camp???? rofllll u guys must not know about powershielding.

If your approaching thru the ground prepare to get bair camped where your shield isn't really good. Powershielding only does so much it still forces you to approach in this MU n doubt you will PS everyone

lol what a joke post. he can control the turn around if he presses the controlstick the way he wants to face.

You can still eat a blaster in the air n wut is turning around gonna do? You'll eat another one unless u AD. Not to mention you have to expect the laser to be ready to stay turned around in the air.

Close up he does Fsmash? omfg........ <_<
No KO moves? Never heard of dsmash? And uair is pretty strong.
Wolfs air speed is better, but only by a little bit.

Wolf's air speed is better by ALOT. DK's up close game is better than what has been said but he has no real safe moves on shield on the ground

His weight isn't that great for his size? O_o Okay I mean he's not Snake, but ... he is the character that can survive the longest in the game....

Ummm...isn't DDD heavier? And Snake too? Not sure about snake...

EDIT: Ban me from this thread I keep coming back even tho i dont want to XD. MU discussions r dumb

 

[Luigi player]

If your gonna come n reply his is a joke at least argue a lil bit better than u did...soooo since he has no idea about DK (supposedly by u) i've played Ripple and Ook soooo heres what i have to say...

I didn't really want to give that much matchup input; I mostly came here to look what people are saying about this MU... and then I read 70:30 and 60:40 in every post, lol.

If your approaching thru the ground prepare to get bair camped where your shield isn't really good. Powershielding only does so much it still forces you to approach in this MU n doubt you will PS everyone

And DK can't do anything against bair camping? He could bair camp you back, use ftilt, reverse utilt, maybe dtilt, jabs, maybe downB/upB/giant punch...

You can still eat a blaster in the air n wut is turning around gonna do? You'll eat another one unless u AD. Not to mention you have to expect the laser to be ready to stay turned around in the air.

Well of course some blasters will probably hit during the matches... but why would DK be in the air if Wolf is far enough away so that he can safely use it? Wolf is not Falco lol so he can come close on the ground where blasters won't stop him and if he's near enough he can get in the air if he needs to (mostly when Wolf is in the air cus on the ground DK > Wolf)...

Wolf's air speed is better by ALOT. DK's up close game is better than what has been said but he has no real safe moves on shield on the ground

Maximum Air Speed

1. Yoshi (1.32)
2. Jigglypuff (1.27)
3. Wario (1.22)
3. Wolf (1.22)
5. Captain Falcon (1.18)
6. Sonic (1.11)
7. Donkey Kong (1.08)
7. Mr. Game & Watch (1.08)
7. Squirtle (1.08)
...
...

Ummm...isn't DDD heavier? And Snake too? Not sure about snake...

Dedede lives longer if you use attacks that hit vertically... Snake too. DK is third I think. But on the sides DK is #1. Dedede is only average or maybe even worse than that. He can barely stop horizontal momentum.

 

[rvkevin]

I think Kain got is pretty right.

 

[Ripple]

/namesearch

wolf advantage 55-45 or even. I don't know the match up well at all but kain didn't wreck me like a 60-40 match up would show.

also, DK is overall the heaviest character in the game. Snake and DDD survive longer due to weight and falll speed vertically. and DK is the second heaviest horizontally but due to aerial momentum, DK survives longer than bowser.

edit @ luigi player. wolf has very fast aerial acceleration. with auto cancels and fast moves, wolf is far faster than us in the air

 

[_Kain_]

/namesearch

wolf advantage 55-45 or even. I don't know the match up well at all but kain didn't wreck me like a 60-40 match up would show.

also, DK is overall the heaviest character in the game. Snake and DDD survive longer due to weight and falll speed vertically. and DK is the second heaviest horizontally but due to aerial momentum, DK survives longer than bowser.

LOL namesearch. IMO i feel a 60-40 MU is jus Adv to the char nothing real big. 55-45 to me is jus a dumb ratio thats basically even. So yea my 60-40=your 55-45. Thats why i hate MU discussions peoples differing opinions on TOO many things. Also your a good player good players overcome Disadvantages

 

[tedeth]

I donno I think on say, bf, we could call it close to even, but on larger stages like fd I'd say wold has an advantage worthy of being 60:40. Just the constant gay of blaster in DK's face all the time means he's always having to approach.

I think an overall 60:40 advantage is still reasonable though. Wolf can pick stages like fd or even picto and just gay it up.

 

[Luigi player]

Yeah Wolf is quicker, but it's not thaat much. -_-

I donno I think on say, bf, we could call it close to even, but on larger stages like fd I'd say wold has an advantage worthy of being 60:40. Just the constant gay of blaster in DK's face all the time means he's always having to approach.

I think an overall 60:40 advantage is still reasonable though. Wolf can pick stages like fd or even picto and just gay it up.

Wolfs blaster doesn't force an approach...

 

[_Kain_]

Yeah Wolf is quicker, but it's not thaat much. -_-



Wolfs blaster doesn't force an approach...

It forces an approach...your jus gonna sit there in your shield? No you have to come to us since you have no projectile to compete with us. it forces you to take action

 

[rvkevin]

Wolfs blaster doesn't force an approach...

When you lack a projectile, you HAVE to approach. I thought that was common sense.

 

[Silfa]

The blaster is mad gay. It certainly forces an approach more than a monkey just sitting around doing nothing. It gives wolf a lot of control over the match up, but without blaster it's pretty even imo.

The matchup is pretty much definitely in wolf's favour and 60:40 does sound pretty reasonable.

 

[Luigi player]

When you lack a projectile, you HAVE to approach. I thought that was common sense.

When the enemy can hit you with his projectile easily if you don't appraoch then it's better to appraoch then getting damaged all the time.

The best examples imo are Fox and Falco.


Wolf can't follow up on his blaster, and it has enough lag to not be spamable. And since it's so linear and slow it's very easy to powershield. Even peanuts from Diddy Kong force an appraoch better than Wolfs blaster.

Since it's so easy to avoid/shield/dodge you only have to approach if Wolf has the lead.

 

[rvkevin]

And since it's so linear and slow it's very easy to powershield.

Since it's so easy to avoid/shield/dodge you only have to approach if Wolf has the lead.

So, what do you plan to do at the beginning of the match? If you have any hopes of winning, you HAVE to approach.

I wonder why nobody has brought up Jumpshine yet...I guess they have never played a Wolf that could camp.

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

Wolf vs DK imo is 55:45 in Wolf favor......

At Pound 4 I got to play 2 DK's(one i usually play Cable and one that was new to me Will)

vs Cable in friendlies they were close, he won sometimes and so did I. And vs Will it was a $5 mm and it came down to last hit 3rd game(he won)

Both wolf and dk rely on bair and it is on of their best moves. Wolf's bair is a little better since its faster. Camp DK and force approach. Just camp a lot in this MU and when he jumps, most likely your fair will outrange/be faster then what he does unless he airdodges to the ground in the case you will still be able to avoid his move.

 

[_Kain_]

So, what do you plan to do at the beginning of the match? If you have any hopes of winning, you HAVE to approach.

I wonder why nobody has brought up Jumpshine yet...I guess they have never played a Wolf that could camp.

Because JJ isn't posting cause of his 1000th post =O and cause shine is the most overlooked move n ppl think it has no affect on anything whatsoever

 

[rvkevin]

and cause shine is the most overlooked move n ppl think it has no affect on anything whatsoever

And yet it probably adds 10 points in Wolf's favor in every match up except MK.

 

[KRDsonic]

loooooooool Wolfs have no idea about DK

I fight a good DK all the time. I know a lot about DK.

 

[Destrawr]

Shine takes DK down considering he has no broken hitboxes, it can stop out pretty much all of his moves and then normally followed up into a D-smash

 

[D0N]

Shine takes DK down considering he has no broken hitboxes, it can stop out pretty much all of his moves and then normally followed up into a D-smash

Don't you live in SoVA? I'm assuming so since you said you play PTZR, unless that is just on wifi. I want to MM some wolves so if you are pm me so I can bring you to a smashfest or something.

As far as this discussion goes I have the same general opinion as Kain/xzax/tedeth.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Maybe 70-30 is a stretch, but 60-40 or 65-35 seems quite reasonable. Shine is useful always. Mk just has incredible priority in general to make Wolf not able to approach easily.

Mk can't camp Wolf either, but he doesn't have a problem getting in Wolf's spacing game. No one without a projectile can camp one with.

Fox forces approaches unless you readily want to eat a billion lasers or have a reflector. Every character with reflector has a projectile though.

Do you camp a laser campy, side b spammy, Falco? Unless you want damage like the Wolf vs Falco matchup to be out of cg percent then you don't camp back.

The few Wolf camp vs camp matches seems to be:

Olimar vs Wolf (they camp each other usually)
Zelda vs Wolf (she has no approach anyway)
ROB vs Wolf (they camp and spam each other, but I've noticed Wolf usually wins in dealing more damage overtime because he can readily reflect ROB's stuff while ROB's side b is terrible and takes forever to end and start, ROB just has a great Fair)

 

[TheWolfBackRoom]

give it a break. Luigi player gets all his wolf match up experience through gheb, who he beats pretty badly.


Luigi player doesn't really know what it's like to face a wolf who utilizes jumpshining well so he doesn't REALLY know how annoying it is to face wolf as donkey kong.

I'll accept 60:40 as a match up ratio. I think DK can win if the wolf ****s up/isn't careful

-JJ

 

[KRDsonic]

I believe the matchup is 50:50.

I don't jumpshine.

Jumpshine really does add 10 points in Wolf's favor.

 

[Gah777]

90:10 Wolf because of the f-smash>blaster>d-smash combo at 0:31 of this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7tV02Q_DnQ

 

[D0N]

Wow... so JJ found a way to get around wasting his 1000th post lol... Well played, now I want to see what your post will be

 

[rvkevin]

Seriously, anyone who posted that hasn't played this match up doesn't realize how stupid it is, and most likely underestimates Wolf in the first place.

I'll accept 60:40 as a match up ratio. I think DK can win if the wolf ****s up/isn't careful

The reason I didn't make it worse is because Wolf can mess up and DK punishes so well, but building that damage to even get to Fsmash KO percent is arduous enough if the Wolf plays correctly.