Ottawa Ontario Canada HD Remix

[joblin]

We should decide on squash by midnight tonight.

 

[IvanEva]

Is anybody opposed to us adopting the true counterpicking method (seriously, who the hell came up with the current method? It's like Smash players only faintly heard about how the Street Fighter kids did it and tried to emulate them).

On a slightly more important note:

// *****************************************
THE MOST IMPORTANT $25 MONEY MATCH EVER! \/
// *****************************************
It would appear that my brother foolishly believes that his pokémon (Max) can beat mine (Jan). FOOLISHNESS! We have agreed to have ourselves a money match to determine who is the better teacher!

So, it'll be Max vs. Jan in a best of 5 set! Where/when details will be sorted out later on.

Jan: (besides Happy Birthday) Get to work perfecting your Snake! I have $25 riding on it!

 

[Suo]

Haha! That is an awesome money match.

I'll support true counter picking, as long as it seems fair and balanced when put into practice.

 

[arsenic41]

According to Wiki:

There are several versions of Apples to Apples including: Apples to Apples (2001), Apples to Apples Junior 9+ (2002), Apples to Apples Kids, Apples to Apples: Jewish Version, and Apples to Apples: Bible Edition.

idk about you guys, but apples to apples jewish and bible seem like they'd be filled with lolz.
Ex:
Topic= Messiah

Cards= Mud, Attack on Pearl Harbor, Pushups, Captain Falcon and Pirates

It's gonna be close between Mud and Captain Falcon.

oh man...AtA Jewish version is going to be epic lulz

 

[flash7]

squash looks like a no go . Ill try to get in to contact with Mike so we can arrange a more specific day/time. I wouldnt want to go without him.

Who does Max use? Jan is also partly my pokemon, ive tought him some important moves.

 

[infomon]

Is anybody opposed to us adopting the true counterpicking method

But doesn't it just hurt characters with distinct stage disadvantages, like tether recoveries etc.? It seems like it would just encourage us all to pick Metaknight :/ What's the advantage of "true counterpicking"?

 

[PND]

These videos of the brawl hacks have really got me thinking lately, and I've come to the conclusion that I absolutely love Melee. I've been trying to love Brawl, if only because it's another smash game, and while I do enjoy it in small doses I find that the entire engine itself is fundamentally flawed. Tripping, chain throws everywhere, grab release infinites, a dodge system that promotes camping and defensive play to approach and offense, one character that absolutely ***** top level play. Even with more diverse tourney results and Metaknight out of the way, I can't help but feeling that this is it for the scene. Without advanced techs, I can't see how the metagame could ever grow beyond what it is right now, which is losing my interest rapidly.

Essentially, I'm pretty sure that after Niagara I'm going to go back to Melee. I've never played it with you guys before, mostly because I can't play both Brawl and Melee at the same time without trying to revert the methods of the other. I'll miss Wario, I'll miss Snake; but I'll have Mewtwo and a good Jiggs back again; as well as all the fun that Melee had provided me over the years.

That's what it breaks down to. Melee was just way more fun for me, even in losing. Perhaps if the hacks catch on, or some AT's are found I'll go back to brawling, but right now I think I'm finished with Brawl. I never thought I'd be on this side of the debate, but here I am.

I don't mean to step on any toes or try to convince people not to brawl. I'm more so looking for people who'll play Melee with me. I'll be rusty and need to get back into shape again, but I can't shake the feeling that I have had more fun with Melee than I think I ever can with Brawl.

EDIT: Randy / Locke and Bryant would now make the best team ever. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gRv9ftMy9w

 

[arsenic41]

I think melee is the better game, but brawl is still fun once in a while.

 

[Fogel]

Hmm, a lot of interesting discussion points have come up over the last few days. Some of my thoughts, in no particular order.

First, on this Brawl hack issue. I don't think Brawl with this Melee-hack is a good idea, for a couple of reasons. Remeber, it is a HACK. That means it isn't endorsed by Nintendo, so you are leaving your Wii in a questionable state as far as it's compatibility with firmware updates, etc. What happens if I want to use my Wii to play some Virtual console games, but when I go online to buy some games, Nintendo locks out my system because it's hacked? Or, as has happened to PNDMike, your Wii gets bricked? Nintendo may refuse to fix it, or be unable to fix it, if the hack has left it in some weird state. Either way, it's a risk to your system. Other people have brought up good points about people being able to alter the code so as to benefit certain characters, etc. which I won't repeat here, but this is also very possible.

Brawl L-cancel and other new hack stuff: The designers of Brawl put in auto-cancelling on some aerial moves and not others for a reason. I'm pretty sure they knew about L/Z-cancelling in 64/Melee, and replaced it so that aerials that should have less lag will automatically have less lag instead. Aerials that still have lots of lag have it because they are supposed to be slow moves.

In my opinion, L/Z cancelling as an idea isn't really that great. Having to hit a button to make my aerials faster is actually pretty dumb. If I could make my Melee aerials 'auto L-cancel', I would do it in a second. Unlike wavedashing, which is something I choose to do, I basically am forced to L-cancel all of my aerials because there's no good reason not to. I'm actually pretty happy with auto-cancelling. IMO, the biggest problem with Brawl isn't the lack of Wavedash/L-cancel, it's the lack of hitstun. There are advanced techniques in Brawl, but they are just more character-specific and situational (glide tossing, boosted dash attacks/smashes/grabs/whatever, Quick Attack cancelling, etc). Use Brawl techniques in Brawl. If you want to use Melee techniques in Brawl, maybe you should be playing Melee instead.


Lastly, Apples to Apples is awesome, you should all play it

 

[joblin]

But doesn't it just hurt characters with distinct stage disadvantages, like tether recoveries etc.? It seems like it would just encourage us all to pick Metaknight :/ What's the advantage of "true counterpicking"?

Basically, counterpicking it there to give the loser of the previous round a chance. If you have the winner changing characters because of the level it sort of loses it point to even change the level.

I'm on board with Cam on this one. "Use Brawl techniques in Brawl. If you want to use Melee techniques in Brawl, maybe you should be playing Melee instead." Apples to Apples doesn't have Wavedashing and L Canceling and it's still and awesome game.

 

[flash7]

These videos of the brawl hacks have really got me thinking lately, and I've come to the conclusion that I absolutely love Melee. I've been trying to love Brawl, if only because it's another smash game, and while I do enjoy it in small doses I find that the entire engine itself is fundamentally flawed. Tripping, chain throws everywhere, grab release infinites, a dodge system that promotes camping and defensive play to approach and offense, one character that absolutely ***** top level play. Even with more diverse tourney results and Metaknight out of the way, I can't help but feeling that this is it for the scene. Without advanced techs, I can't see how the metagame could ever grow beyond what it is right now, which is losing my interest rapidly.

Essentially, I'm pretty sure that after Niagara I'm going to go back to Melee. I've never played it with you guys before, mostly because I can't play both Brawl and Melee at the same time without trying to revert the methods of the other. I'll miss Wario, I'll miss Snake; but I'll have Mewtwo and a good Jiggs back again; as well as all the fun that Melee had provided me over the years.

That's what it breaks down to. Melee was just way more fun for me, even in losing. Perhaps if the hacks catch on, or some AT's are found I'll go back to brawling, but right now I think I'm finished with Brawl. I never thought I'd be on this side of the debate, but here I am.

I don't mean to step on any toes or try to convince people not to brawl. I'm more so looking for people who'll play Melee with me. I'll be rusty and need to get back into shape again, but I can't shake the feeling that I have had more fun with Melee than I think I ever can with Brawl.

EDIT: Randy / Locke and Bryant would now make the best team ever. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gRv9ftMy9w

I felt the same way a while ago. Melee is definitely the better competitve game and alot funner but for now im playing both. Maybe its true what some people are saying, people are getting bored with Brawl (already) and heading back to Melee.

I was reading the ocarina hack guide yesterday cause I really wanted to try out the hacks and it says that the hacks wont break your system. The only thing you have to look out for are updates. You shouldnt update your wii until they come out with a newer version of the hacks or verify that the update is harmless.

 

[Suo]

On this whole Melee/Brawl issue, I went through a very similiar feeling as PNDMike, probably 4-5 months ago.

Few combo's in Brawl, no hitstun, defence is too strong etc.

Right as of this moment, I absolutely love Brawl, it just feels right to me. There's a very cerebral aspect to it, and although it doesn't cater to the part of me that wants rushdown and extremely fast play, I still really really do enjoy it.

The only reason that I would try to learn Melee at this point, would be if the competitive scene for Brawl in Ottawa just became too small.

Anyone up for some Brawl this week? I can host a few people, or go to someone elses house.

 

[jan]

For anyone wanting the Homebrew Channel installed, you need to have an SD card and a way of transferring data to it. Something like a card reader or a digital camera would work. Twilight Princess is needed only for a few minutes, but to do the codes for Ocarina, you need to be able to transfer data back and forth from your PC to your card, then stick the card in your Wii.

Safety wise, there is virtually no risk depending on what you're doing. The format that most applications run will at worst crash your Wii. It's the .wad files you have to watch out for. There are .wads for pretty much every virtual console game, which for some would be pretty tempting, but they're sketchy at best. Any of the content from http://wiibrew.org/ I would trust. Also, at the moment, updating doesn't harm anything. The Homebrew Channel is a channel like any other, and can be uninstalled. The update that Nintendo released simply searched for the hacked Twilight Princess save file and deleted it.

Also, yay for my Pokemon battle... I think?

 

[Fogel]

Is anybody opposed to us adopting the true counterpicking method (seriously, who the hell came up with the current method? It's like Smash players only faintly heard about how the Street Fighter kids did it and tried to emulate them).

On a slightly more important note:

// *****************************************
THE MOST IMPORTANT $25 MONEY MATCH EVER! \/
// *****************************************
It would appear that my brother foolishly believes that his pokémon (Max) can beat mine (Jan). FOOLISHNESS! We have agreed to have ourselves a money match to determine who is the better teacher!

So, it'll be Max vs. Jan in a best of 5 set! Where/when details will be sorted out later on.

Jan: (besides Happy Birthday) Get to work perfecting your Snake! I have $25 riding on it!

Where/when is this MM going down? It would be fun to watch!

Jobin: As far as I know (rather, as far as I'm concerned), no.

By the way guys, read this: http://www.shoryuken.com/?p=265#more-265

It's an interesting interview with the host of the EVO items-on Brawl tournament. He brings up a lot of good points about how the Smash community works (and doesn't work) as well as some insight into how stubborn some players are based on other's thinking.

While I'm not sold on items there was one thing that I HIGHLY agree with: True Counterpicking! That is to say that the loser of the match gets to pick both his own character as well as the stage while the winner is unable to change ANYTHING, not even his character. Sometimes I've felt that counterpicking in Brawl has been a bit of a joke since the opponent can just switch to a character that does well on that level. True counterpicking is the way to go and I can't quite understand why the hell pseudo counter-picking is currently the norm.

Dice: That's how I initially felt about Street Fighter IV. Once I stopped longing for a Street Fighter III: Forth Attack! and started accepting that it's a different game (in many ways the Brawl to Third Strike's Melee) I came to accept it and now I'm rabidly hunting down matches to watch (and characters to facepalm at - Sakura!? WHY?).

You didn't read the rule carefully enough. He says right in the article:

So, in our system, called ‘Single Counterpicking’, the winner is being counterpicked and cannot change anything.The loser may either choose a new stage and keep his character, or keep the same stage and choose a new character.

(emphasis mine)

So, you can change character, or change stage, but not both.

It's kind of interesting that you compare Smash's counterpicking to Street Fighter, because in Street Fighter I thought that the stage doesn't matter; it's just a different background picture. If this is true, the only thing you CAN really counterpick is the character. I would argue that if you are diverse enough to be able to play other characters on quirky counterpick levels well, then you deserve to win on the counterpick. The problem with counterpicking both and not allowing the winner any choice at all is that you can just pick some gimmicky stage and some character who has a very big advantage on it, and the first round winner has a very low chance of winning unless they are a lot better than you (I know you just want to force Jungle Japes + Lucas, Harold ). I think avoiding situations like this is why the original rule was created.

However, there is an alternative. What some tournaments do is have two different counterpick options: the current one, with loser picks stage->winner can change character->loser can change character, and another option where the loser goes random stage, the winner can not change characters, but the loser can. This means if you have a character which you are pretty sure can beat the winner's character, you have a chance to do this, but you have to be confident you can do it on a random stage. I would be ok to having this second option available for tournaments. This choice is closer to what is described in the article.

 

[Linkshot]

Would CP be set to Random in those events?

 

[flash7]

No I believe you have to play on the neutral stages. Also the comparison to SF is more about the loser can change character and the winner cannot. There is not stage selection in SF.

 

[Linkshot]

Fair enough. I have a hard time taking all of the stages into account in tourney play because it's all based on my experience and I have more experience on neutral stages.

 

[joblin]

Spear Pillar for the win!

 

[LivewiresXe]

Just thought I'd point out that I can sort of understand where Mike's coming from on the Brawl thing in a sense. It sounds kind of like how for a while MGS3 made me want to play MGS2 and how RE4 made me want to play REMake, respectively. I think it's kind of partly due to the expectations people have. If you play Brawl expecting it to be original Smash Bros or Melee, you're bound to have a few mixed feelings.

 

[arsenic41]

I think why people are switching back to melee is not only because melee is the better game, but also because melee has alot more satisfaction. Like, pulling off an epic combo has trumped the feeling of getting second in the bi-weekly.

 

[arsenic41]

On this whole Melee/Brawl issue, I went through a very similiar feeling as PNDMike, probably 4-5 months ago.

Few combo's in Brawl, no hitstun, defence is too strong etc.

Right as of this moment, I absolutely love Brawl, it just feels right to me. There's a very cerebral aspect to it, and although it doesn't cater to the part of me that wants rushdown and extremely fast play, I still really really do enjoy it.

The only reason that I would try to learn Melee at this point, would be if the competitive scene for Brawl in Ottawa just became too small.

Anyone up for some Brawl this week? I can host a few people, or go to someone elses house.

I'm up for some brawl this week, I'm free tuesday afternoon and is up for something after my 10 ocolck lecture on thursday

 

[flash7]

I think why people are switching back to melee is not only because melee is the better game, but also because melee has alot more satisfaction. Like, pulling off an epic combo has trumped the feeling of getting second in the bi-weekly.

Yeah true, the first time I 0-death comboed the computer a tear came to my eye. It was something of beauty. Now I just have to do it in a real match.

 

[joblin]

You can still get those 0-death combos in Brawl and any combo for that matter and I find that its more rewarding to get those in Brawl because its so much harder. I personally like Brawl because I play to be awesome, not to win. If I can kill someone in an cool way rather than edge hogging or continually doing something 'safe' that will always get you the kill, I have so much more fun. I sort of like how Brawl is less competative. It's a refreshing experience.

 

[Linkshot]

Yeah, it is. I tend to completely flump in a tourney situation because it's tense and I end up worrying too much, or I don't have enough tourney practice.

Separate note, I'll see what I can do about a mini-SmashFest this week.

WARNINGS

1. I have a shy kitty.
2. My TV is small (as you saw)
3. My Wii buzzes (as you heard)
4. My room isn't very large.
5. The TV is forced into awkward positions for multiplayer.
6. I'll put the litterbox out of sight.
7. Bring at least 1 controller. 2 is all you need, though.
8. My parents live here (yep, not divorced)

WELCOMINGS

1. My parents are very nice. They won't john about swears (until you all leave)
2. There's a small shop downstairs if you need to pick something up.
3. No broken controllers!
4. SNES has Killer Instinct.
5. Melee is a go.
6. Tennis court downstairs.
7. Exercise room downstairs.
8. Patrick might come over.

 

[IvanEva]

1. Where/when is this MM going down? It would be fun to watch!

2. You didn't read the rule carefully enough. He says right in the article...
So, you can change character, or change stage, but not both.

3. in Street Fighter I thought that the stage doesn't matter; it's just a different background picture.

4. The problem with counterpicking both and not allowing the winner any choice at all is that you can just pick some gimmicky stage and some character who has a very big advantage on it, and the first round winner has a very low chance of winning unless they are a lot better than you (I know you just want to force Jungle Japes + Lucas, Harold ).

5. I think avoiding situations like this is why the original rule was created.

6. and another option where the loser goes random stage, the winner can not change characters, but the loser can.

1. The match would almost certainly have to happen at a friendlies Smashfest. We just have to find one were both (plus Ariel, Orlando and my self) can go.

2. Yes, that I misread (or rather I didn't go back and re-read after the stage thing hit me) but that's irrelevant. Being able to change only either your character or level is too limiting since you're still possibly at a disadvantage even though you've just lost a round (especially vs. the higher tier characters).

3. Not true. England is the best stage in fighting game history. Great music + beautiful visuals = best level ever. *ahem* Yes, the level doesn't matter much in Street Fighter (there actually are some differences between them - Brazil is the longest if I recall correctly - but they're too small to matter). However, since the levels don't really matter, that's a variable that doesn't affect advantages, unlike how it works in Smash. My Street Fighter example (err, his Street Fighter example? Doesn't matter...) is just to say that the player that lost changes all of the variables to be in his favor. In SF it's just the character that he's playing, in Smash it's the character + the level, in Arcana it might be the character + the spirit, etc.

4. That's why certain levels are banned. All instances of character-rapage-on-a-level have been quickly ironed out of Brawl through the magic of stage bans. I challenge you to pick a legal stage on which a certain character has too large of an advantage.

Lucas isn't actually all that on Jungle Japes, Azrealt was just terribly inexperienced in that kind of situation.

5. Created in and for Melee. Brawl is different in that stages are less of a pain against your character, particularly when it comes to recovering (the bane of Melee). No character + stage combination is a sure-fire win in Brawl (Metakight + any level notwithstanding... ).

6. Going with a random stage may work against your character and goes against the point of counterpicking.

True Counterpicking, as I shall call it, seems like it would make Brawl better and I'd really like to be able to test it out in a genuinely competitive environment. Next time I have people over I think I'll see how it goes with it. Challenger/loser picks both character and level, winner cannot change anything (except Zelda/Shiek, Z/Samus, and Pokemon).

Anyone up for some Brawl this week? I can host a few people, or go to someone elses house.

This week is looking pretty ****ty for me but Thursday would work again (same time and all that) if you're up for it. Are you coming to the bi-weekly? You ***** me with Snake so I'd like to see how you do against the rest.

But doesn't it just hurt characters with distinct stage disadvantages, like tether recoveries etc.? It seems like it would just encourage us all to pick Metaknight :/ What's the advantage of "true counterpicking"?

Metaknight's greatest strength is in gimping. Taking him to a level where that's harder can only work for you without the opponent being able to change away from Metaknight (Norfair, Brinstar and Pirate Ship come to mind as sort-of-anti-Metaknight levels). The worst legal level for tether people is Frigate Orpheon but that's not that much worse for them, they're vulnerable no matter where they go.

The advantage of true counterpicking is that you're actually trying to actively counter the character that you lost against. Metaknight aside, everybody has counters. If your Luigi is killing me, I'll want to counter you by picking a level with a high ceiling. That you can counter my counter by picking a side-killer character instead defeats the point of counterpicking.

 

[buenob]

you know, i find that metaknight does have counters, and they're the freaking neutral levels...

I find that it's 100% his gimping capabilities, and this shines on levels (and characters) which force you to recover high/low (rob can do both anywhere so i find as long as I play the right mindgames i'm fine)

it's less counter than finding a level where he doesn't have an advantage, but still... that's a counter, right?

 

[flash7]

Since I feel my grinding/training reputation is on the line, id like to have a practice session with Jan sometime. Thursday doesnt look to good unless its later in the night, but ill keep you posted.

Harold: You should apply to become a backroom member, seems to fit you .

 

[Suo]

Heading to sleep now.

Randy/Harold/Jan?/Orlando?- Thursday at my place is definitely do-able, it will be interesting to have potentially 5 people crammed in my room but we can prolly make it work.

Harold I assume you mean around 5pm like last time? Also, Randy is your lecture 10am or 10pm?

I can host any time after around 3pm on Thursday, so you guys let me know what works the best for all involved.

P.S. Yea I am definitely going to the upcoming Bi-weekly!

P.P.S. Just started watching Gundam 00 season 1, TOO GOOD!

 

[arsenic41]

Heading to sleep now.

Randy/Harold/Jan?/Orlando?- Thursday at my place is definitely do-able, it will be interesting to have potentially 5 people crammed in my room but we can prolly make it work.

Harold I assume you mean around 5pm like last time? Also, Randy is your lecture 10am or 10pm?

I can host any time after around 3pm on Thursday, so you guys let me know what works the best for all involved.

P.S. Yea I am definitely going to the upcoming Bi-weekly!

P.P.S. Just started watching Gundam 00 season 1, TOO GOOD!

I can do anything from early mornings to 7pm, and my lecture ends at 10pm.

Also, for the true counterpicking thing. I think it makes sense in a way that it holds the losers hand while giving him a warm glass of milk and reassuring that it will be better next time, and I like tall glasses of milk . But I think that this way of counter picking in brawl is in fact better, since the stages are mostly character specific so counter picking a stage would be wasted if the opponent just changes their character.

on the flip side, you could just choose a stage which is good for your character in hopes of mindgaming him to switching to a different character and then changing to counter pick that character, or if he stays the same, you have an advantage. It is all in the mindgames when it comes to counter picking.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, I promised PNDMike that he was in charge of the bi-weekly this week since I has midterms to study for, but it looks like that he might have a hard time showing up, so in the case that P.Mike doesn't show up, I'll leave the bi-weekly to Harold (be warned, extreme changes may apply).

 

[arsenic41]

****! wrong thread!

 

[buenob]

I gotta say, when Suo and Randy were over, and I killed Suo with 11% damage done to me and I ended it with a spike I felt the same kind of satisfaction that orlando is talking about a few posts up

the game has changed, you just need to use epic mindgames instead of epic comboz

 

[joblin]

the game has changed, you just need to use epic mindgames instead of epic comboz

And that is why I'm not that good at the game. I'm a little too predictable and lack a bit of the tech. Usually results in being 2 stocked...

 

[Locke)]

Joblin, what 0-death combos are you talking about in brawl? Are you hiding something from all of us?

Alot of brawlers have the "try something new and forget about the old" mentality. Well we tried brawl and now we're trying a NEWER smash, and you're being a hypocrit clinging to brawl like it's an ugly child.

I guarantee anyone that would try a brawl with l-cancelling would prefer it. Even without the hitstun, the l-cancel still lets you follow after a hit, letting you maintain pressure and some little form of offense which is EXTREMELY lacking in this game. No one who is human wants to play Super Smash Brothers Defense.

Also, those 11% matches that end with a spike, why can't that happen now still? You'd just have to work harder for it because it will be faster. We don't want melee 2.0, we just want something that rewards technical skill in a video game.

 

[buenob]

mostly, if there were a very large competitive comunity for it, I would definitely play more of the hacked brawl, I have nothing against it and would play it given the opportunity, but I am not actually 'excited' to try it out...

one of the reasons I won't switch off brawl is I actually prefer it to melee and really enjoy playing it... the _only_ beef I have is with tripping, and even then I don't really mind that much... I'm actually kind of sick of these talks because everyone who is pro melee thinks people aren't looking at it from their side enough, and I find it just the opposite. I garuntee you that I personally will not like it more, so I guess unless you speak for me better than I do then your statement is false...

I'm not trying to convince anyone to change their opinion, I'm just sick of having to defend mine for no reason...

 

[IvanEva]

1. We don't want melee 2.0,

2. we just want something that rewards technical skill in a video game.

1. Yes you do.

2. I'm in the opposite camp. I find technical skill to be a barrier between what you want your character to do and what he ends up doing. It's like how in Third Strike do worse than I should because I'm not terribly good at comboing/super canceling even though I can get the openings for them easily enough. To me, the ideal fighting game would have your character controlled with your mind. Technicall skill is like having arthritis, it's painful to get things moving (but, I'll admit, fulfilling when you do).

 

[Locke)]

This is kind of supporting my argument.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=200495

It isn't about adding l-cancelling or any new AT's, but the SBR is, oddly enough, asking for hackers to help balance characters.

Strange times ahead.

Ninja Edit: Back to l-cancelling: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNoi2FyUl9I&feature=related

I personally could care less about wavedashing. I think it's more of a trick than technique. But low tiers will strongly benefit having quicker moves while top tiers are generally up there because their abusable moves already auto cancel anyways.

 

[Linkshot]

Update: I can't host anything this week ;-;

I miiight be able to make it to Harold's on Thursday (if he does host).

 

[buenob]

i gotta say I am personally very against this... I have a lot of reasons but mostly the only thing that is broken to me in brawl is the controller port issues...

grab v. grab, should put both characters into the grab release animation and if someone is grabbing/being grabbed they should _not_ have super armor... there's not even a mention of these issues

i think things like this should be patched (KoF with the player 2 only kyo combo's) and things like XvSF getting rid of a few characters glitches (thank god for the standing infinite nerfs in v2.0 which by the way lots of games get updates, just not console games)... but balancing issues leads down a slippery slope of terribleness...

these are games, people will look at the current ruleset and figure out the best strategies to use with these premises. by continually changing this basis, only the most dedicated of players will be able to continually adapt to this and the gap between extremely (obsessively) competitive and people who compete for fun will grow to extremes and then you'll only be left with the small user base which devotes their life to the game. (Utopia : games.swirve.com/utopia, is a prime example of this)

this also leads to the problem of dissemination of information. by having a specific group continually making the changes, they inherently have an advantage over other competitors... If you are a modder, or BR member, you are continually thinking of the rules and all of their advantages/disadvantages, to someone who just want's to play the game, they would wait for the new update, read the rules and then try to figure out what is "broken" in the new ruleset... and god forbid someone new enters the competitive smash scene... can you imagine playing for fun with your friends, looking online, only to find out that no one else is even playing the same game??

lets not forget that competitive smash is a very small portion of the entire smash pie, and if we want to keep growing segregating ourselves from the mainstream isn't exactly the best way to accomplish this...

also, would the MLG seriously back a hacked game? this leads to all sorts of legal issues, and if all the major tournaments are held in "regular" smash while all the "competitive" play will take place in the hacked versions, the level of those major tournaments will diminish to the point where it wouldn't even be worth attending those anymore, and then there wouldn't be any buzz around the game, and again the competitive scene will dwindle

I am _not_ saying I am against the modifying of the game. I am just worried that by attempting to adopt a non-standard illegally modified game as a substitute (not compliment) for "Super Smash Brothers Brawl (retail)" we are hurting the overall community instead of enhancing it.

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haha yeah i was going to post this in that thread but it's now closed... anyways, glad to see that things are being discussed, not pushed through

 

[arsenic41]

Joblin, what 0-death combos are you talking about in brawl? Are you hiding something from all of us?

Alot of brawlers have the "try something new and forget about the old" mentality. Well we tried brawl and now we're trying a NEWER smash, and you're being a hypocrit clinging to brawl like it's an ugly child.

I guarantee anyone that would try a brawl with l-cancelling would prefer it. Even without the hitstun, the l-cancel still lets you follow after a hit, letting you maintain pressure and some little form of offense which is EXTREMELY lacking in this game. No one who is human wants to play Super Smash Brothers Defense.

Also, those 11% matches that end with a spike, why can't that happen now still? You'd just have to work harder for it because it will be faster. We don't want melee 2.0, we just want something that rewards technical skill in a video game.

I wanted a melee 2.0

 

[joblin]

I find it really funny that a lot of people that want Brawl to be more like Melee don't really go back to Melee for very long. They are two different styles of gameplay but if you want Melee in Brawl, go play Melee and vise versa. If you don't care just play both.

I don't even know why we are having this discussion? We both know they're different, would you really hack a Final Fantasy to be more like any other Final Fantasy?

Edit: Time to be a hypocrite now. What I do wish they had in Brawl was 'Decision Mode'. I love to do cool things over for-sure-kill things.