Only the Lonely - The SoPo Matchup Thread / #2-Snake

[l!nk_aut]

Sooner or later every ic-mainer comes into the situation that he/she is forced to fight as SoPo. It helps a lot when you know how to built as much damage as possible with one climber.

Since the old MU-system won´t work here (cause it´s hardly impossible to win a whole fight as sopo) the mu´s in this thread are rated in difficulty between 1 and 10. 1 being the easiest and 10 being the hardest.


i´ll update this thread every week.

Details:

Meta Knight

Snake

Wario

Falco

Diddy Kong

King Dedede

Marth

Mr. Game & Watch

Pikachu

Olimar

Ice Climbers

R.O.B.

Kirby

Lucario

Zero Suit Samus

Toon Link

Pit

Donkey Kong

Peach

Luigi

Fox

Wolf

Sonic

Sheik

Bowser

Zelda

Pokémon Trainer

Ike

Lucas

Mario

Ness

Yoshi

Samus

Jigglypuff

Captain Falcon

Link

Ganondorf

 

[swordgard]

I think we should first find the % for dtrow chaingrab, and we need to take into account stale moves and others so dont try in training mode.

I also dont think we can use the old matchup system because 5-5 for examples represent the amount of games won out of 10 if both players are of equal skill, and realistically with popo they all turn around 9-1, i think we need a new reference point, like a difficulty on 10, with someone who we can rate as being 5.

 

[momochuu]

Haha, this is awesome. Good luck. :3

 

[l!nk_aut]

i´ve made changes on the first post since swordgards idea is very good.

so lets start now with mk xD

you can dthrow chain mk til about 40% or something. thats not bad. your uair still beats his dair but mk won´t approach sopo from above since he doesn´t need to be afraid about the zerodeath. i don´t know if grabrelease is a good idea on mk when he´s over 40%. does anyone know something about that?

well i think sopo does not too bad against mk but he´ll get you offstage and than you´re goin to die.

i would say its between 6 and 8

 

[Hylian]

MOST IMPORTANT THING:


Stage in the middle of the stage.

 

[meepxzero]

lol... I wouldnt put specific things for each character you fight. You pretty much have to outsmart and mindgame whoever ur playing. I find myself using pivot grab a lot more because ur opponent wont be that afraid to approach anymore.

 

[l!nk_aut]

lol... I wouldnt put specific things for each character you fight.

you wouldn´t do that as ic so why should you do it as sopo? i mean you wouldn´t fight the same way against the whole cast since there are specific things you have to know to be good at those matchups.

you also need to know that stuff as sopo. things that normaly don´t bother us ic mains are reliable as sopo. for example the grab release. nobody will do that as both ic´s but as sopo it´s an option


there are specific things you can do against specific characters. so why not discuss it?

 

[Teh Future]

I think its a good idea, you play single popo very differently than you play regular ICs.

Single popo is a very viable character who can be great for building up damage. Yeah his recovery is completely terrible and stuff, but look at olimar. A lot of the time you are going sopo vs metaknight ihe will be at low percentages since his invinncibility frames after he dies are completely broken. I think it would help greatly to know the percentages he can be dthrow CGed, since it is a lot easier to grab with single popo than with both of them. It would also help to see dthrow > upsmash is a true combo.

 

[Snipa4800]

Good thinking , this is a useful thread :3.
Ill contribute %'s when I can.

 

[l!nk_aut]

you can often use dthrow to upsmash. or at higher percentages dthrow to uair/bair. this works against most of the cast

 

[FrozenHobo]

dthrow to edge -> fsmash -> dtilt is your friend.


when i'm going sopo i keep in mind that he needs to be played like a regular character: defend your front, abuse mistakes, edge guard like a mother ****er. with nana gone you need to pay more attention due to your lack of 360 protection, but spacing blizzards/bairs/retreating nairs/sh ice blocks/utilt/ftilt/dtilt let you play a still fairly usable character. true, we no longer have nana to spike or help cg to build damage, but we still have some good defensive tactics.

 

[l!nk_aut]

this are all general things. but let´s focus now on mk. what can you do as sopo against mk? what can mk do against your sopo? and so on. and finally: how difficult (1-10) is it to fight mk with sopo?

 

[FrozenHobo]

he can camp fairs all day and we can't really do **** about it. we can dthrow chain him and a spot dodge -> dsmash can work some of the time which can set up for uairs. you'll be doing a lot of retreating blizzards in this matchup because of mk's range on you he can also spam whorenadow. when he does this do what you normally do: DI up and do a dair. unfortunately dair lacks good enough knock back/damage output to really stop him so you'll probably be killed in a few minutes anyway. also, shuttle loop is (as always) a ****ing *****. try to DI up so you can solo squall back, otherwise put your head between your knees and kiss your butt goodbye.

i'd say 6.5:3.5 MK. its hard, but it can be done. uair/blizzard/fsmash/dsmash are your friend in this matchup. you'll be spot dodging a lot and need to use smashes to push him away so you can setup for a blizzard defense. dtilt can be a good edge guard tactic, but MK has so may recovery options its actually a bad idea to try it.

 

[swordgard]

he can camp fairs all day and we can't really do **** about it. we can dthrow chain him and a spot dodge -> dsmash can work some of the time which can set up for uairs. you'll be doing a lot of retreating blizzards in this matchup because of mk's range on you he can also spam whorenadow. when he does this do what you normally do: DI up and do a dair. unfortunately dair lacks good enough knock back/damage output to really stop him so you'll probably be killed in a few minutes anyway. also, shuttle loop is (as always) a ****ing *****. try to DI up so you can solo squall back, otherwise put your head between your knees and kiss your butt goodbye.

i'd say 6.5:3.5 MK. its hard, but it can be done. uair/blizzard/fsmash/dsmash are your friend in this matchup. you'll be spot dodging a lot and need to use smashes to push him away so you can setup for a blizzard defense. dtilt can be a good edge guard tactic, but MK has so may recovery options its actually a bad idea to try it.

There is no 3.5, because in any realistic match we would not win 3.5 matches out of 5.

6.5 would be a difficulty, also i fail to see how dtilt is a good edgeguard. Dsmash aint really good, your much better using jabs that smashes when he spotdodges ( if you miss your ****ed with smashes). Also fair is not campable, its his worst aerial vs sopo and ics, it has landing lag, run in shield owns that >.< Then you haz free grabz! You can still pivot grab nado and outdamage him if your really awesome too. Also dont dair after being sent away, it lasts WAY too long, use up air then you can jump or do something if he goes for shuttle loop unlike with just doing a dair.

Guys, we really need to find someone we would qualify as 5 for this to work or else wel never be able to do it.

 

[momochuu]

Swordgard, DTilt semi spikes. >_>

MK still gets messed up by Blizzard and FSmash kills him quickly. UpAir him if he's trying to Bowyer Plank you? I dunno. SoPo won't last too long against MK anyway.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Metaknight is too Metaknight to get semi-spiked.

 

[DemonicTrilogy]

If you are even in this situation, I see no hope that you will actually land a kill unless the MK is really stupid and you got him to 100%+ before you actually lost nana. He has things that outrange you and you can't do anything to pressure him at all... His moves outrange upsmash and forward smash, your primary kill moves, and he gimps you mercilessly when you knocks you off the stage, which is pretty common. I would say just don't get into this situation.

 

[FrozenHobo]

Also dont dair after being sent away, it lasts WAY too long, use up air then you can jump or do something if he goes for shuttle loop unlike with just doing a dair.

ok, i think you didn't understand (or just can't read), but i said use the dair if you get caught in tornado to stop him. i didn't say ANYTHING about using dair to stop shuttle loop. thats just ********. also, SL has super armor so attacking him while he's doing it anyway would be futile.


also, as far as aerials, it really won't matter what he uses because half the time he'll be hitting you away so landing lag won't matter. i say fair because he will be approaching/becoming increasingly aggressive and want to force you off the side. he can also use dair, but its less effective at pushing us off than fair would be.


finally, wtf are you talking about in your last sentence? i swear, half the time you don't make any sense.

 

[swordgard]

ok, i think you didn't understand (or just can't read), but i said use the dair if you get caught in tornado to stop him. i didn't say ANYTHING about using dair to stop shuttle loop. thats just ********. also, SL has super armor so attacking him while he's doing it anyway would be futile.


also, as far as aerials, it really won't matter what he uses because half the time he'll be hitting you away so landing lag won't matter. i say fair because he will be approaching/becoming increasingly aggressive and want to force you off the side. he can also use dair, but its less effective at pushing us off than fair would be.


finally, wtf are you talking about in your last sentence? i swear, half the time you don't make any sense.

Kawaii, semi spiking MK is useless when fsmash kills faster .

A) My bad i misread, i thought you wanted to use dair to momentum cancel vs him D= , still think your better off just jumping off the nado while you can because after dair he can immediatly hit you unless hes at high %. And please use capitals in your messages, would make em easier to read.

B) You can hit shuttle loop by doing dair through it even if its grounded (hes only invincible during the first part), but whatsover he should not hit you in the air with grounded upbs. Aerial SL can be beaten by there if timed right, if not both of you will get hit. Just remember to hold up after the dair ^.^, or gayness will ensue.

C) As said before, we cannot use the natural matchup system, so it doesnt work as 6.5-3.5 because these numbers represent the number of games you would win with 2 people of equal skill level. This would never work because realistically sopo will only have matchups rated of 9-1 (if you really believe Sopo will win 3.5 games out of 10, your case is desperate). If all of our matchups are rated as 9-1, 8-2, 9.5-0.5, then what good is that scale, they are all about the same.

We therefore need to create an artificial scale going from 1 to 10 for difficulty level compared to others. To achieve this, we must first find someone rated as 5 difficulty, or find the 2 extremums and then do a easiest to hardest list followed by finding how close each character is to another in order to put a difficulty on them.

2nd time i explain this.


D) As far as aerials go, they all matter because you said half the time hel be hitting you away... what about the other half >.>. Always use up air to momentum cancel then jump or see whats gonna happen.

If you were reffering to what aerials to use to attack him, landing lag IS an issue, if you use any fair he can easily punish with a running grab, same with all of our slow attack.

 

[Prawn]

The best thing to do with Sopo(unless you're on your last stock of course) is build up a ridiculous amount of damage(spam blizzard mostly) so that when you die one grab = one kill no matter what.

 

[swordgard]

The best thing to do with Sopo(unless you're on your last stock of course) is build up a ridiculous amount of damage(spam blizzard mostly) so that when you die one grab = one kill no matter what.

Good shiz for not contributing to the conversation >.>



Now, either we can find someone ranked find, or find 2 chars, one ranked 10 and one 1 so we can start doing this shiz =D.

 

[l!nk_aut]

i´d say snake´s a 10. he´s a ***** with both ic´s and he´s a ****** when you fight him as sopo.

and i would say that ganon is probably the easiest to fight with sopo. ganon or cf

 

[Prawn]

Good shiz for not contributing to the conversation >.>



Now, either we can find someone ranked find, or find 2 chars, one ranked 10 and one 1 so we can start doing this shiz =D.

I am contributing, I'm saying the way you play doesn't vary THAT much from character to character with SoPo. You still use UAirs like you would normally against that character, and you just focus on damage with blizzards and squalls(if they can't punish squalls) mixed up with a few other moves. The only thing that would effect these matchups(from being really ****ty to just ****ty) is the percentage you can dthrow chaingrab them to. From my experience the only characters that slip away before 30ish to 40 are Jigs, Kirbys, and maybe Olimar and GaWs(aside from snakes nades). But these numbers aren't tested at all. I'll test every characters range tonight with my brother and get a good answer though.

 

[momochuu]

Snake at ten, Ganon at one.

 

[swordgard]

Snake at ten, Ganon at one.

Im pretty much convinced rob is harder than snake vs sopo, a good rob will spam you and you will have to come to him, where he has pretty much everything to beat you.


Snake can be comboed, his nades can be used agaisnt him, and you can ps mosts of his tilts, hes a 9 or 9.5

 

[l!nk_aut]

I'm saying the way you play doesn't vary THAT much from character to character with SoPo.

and exactly thats why i made this thread. ic players don´t focus on sopo and i say: this is wrong.
i think ic mainers can push their themselves on a higher level when you know how to do well as sopo. and maybe we´ll find different things as sopo (maybe things out of the grab-release or something) that will help our sopo.

 

[Prawn]

and exactly thats why i made this thread. ic players don´t focus on sopo and i say: this is wrong.
i think ic mainers can push their themselves on a higher level when you know how to do well as sopo. and maybe we´ll find different things as sopo (maybe things out of the grab-release or something) that will help our sopo.

This is actually interesting then,
I'll put my heart and soul into SoPo ATs and findings for the next couple weeks.

 

[FrozenHobo]

swordguard: ok, i understand what you'r saying. i still think we can kill MK with sopo (hell, i've done it plenty of times) but if you want it in that format then 8.5/9


and i meant his aerials, not ours. and i never said anything about momentum canceling in my op.






i've spent the better part of this summer maining sopo via hacks. don't be so quick to dismiss me because 'you're so pro'. everyone can contribute, not just you. i honestly think you underestimate sopo because you never took the time to use him. he's not as crappy as you think he is. and not every matchup is going to be 9-1 or 10-0 and if you think so then your case is hopeless. whatever skill you may have is with both ICs, not one, so you're 'expert advice' isn't exactly the best in this area. if it was a regular matchup thread then i'd trust your judgement more, but this is SoPo and you can't just look at these the same way. fighting styles change when one IC is on the field. if you go at it the same way as if you were using both ICs then yes, you will die a very horrible death. thats why its important to also discuss different options rather than just blow everyone off as idiots and assume they don't know what they're talking about.

 

[momochuu]

That's the thing though with SoPo. He's supposed to be bad and disadvantaged. I think the only character that SoPo can go even with is Ganon. The most you can do with this thread is find out the best ways to deal damage as SoPo before getting thrown off the stage. There's no use looking up ATs for SoPo because they just don't exist. =/

 

[FrozenHobo]

falcon is also 1. we also can sometimes do well against shieks and falos (not a 1, mind you, but still not too bad)

 

[JustNoOne]

MK :SoPo

9001: π

 

[l!nk_aut]

hey frozen. the matchups in this thread aren´t rated in 9:1 or whatever. we´ll rate the difficulty on a scale between 1 and 10.

so for example ganon/cf would be a 1 and marth a 10.


so now AT ALL: STOP SAYING SOMETHING LIKE 9:1 !!!!!

 

[swordgard]

swordguard: ok, i understand what you'r saying. i still think we can kill MK with sopo (hell, i've done it plenty of times) but if you want it in that format then 8.5/9


and i meant his aerials, not ours. and i never said anything about momentum canceling in my op.






i've spent the better part of this summer maining sopo via hacks. don't be so quick to dismiss me because 'you're so pro'. everyone can contribute, not just you. i honestly think you underestimate sopo because you never took the time to use him. he's not as crappy as you think he is. and not every matchup is going to be 9-1 or 10-0 and if you think so then your case is hopeless. whatever skill you may have is with both ICs, not one, so you're 'expert advice' isn't exactly the best in this area. if it was a regular matchup thread then i'd trust your judgement more, but this is SoPo and you can't just look at these the same way. fighting styles change when one IC is on the field. if you go at it the same way as if you were using both ICs then yes, you will die a very horrible death. thats why its important to also discuss different options rather than just blow everyone off as idiots and assume they don't know what they're talking about.

1st) I didnt dismiss you cause im " so pro" as you say. He would be realistically at any top level of the game stuck with 9-1s agaisnt half the cast. I use sopo, and alot may i say because alot of people know how to gimp nana D= . All im saying is that since he wont be winning vs anyone, we will be stuck with half a scale (5 and lower), which decreases precision, and as alot of characters will be classified as 9-1. This is because now youl be using sopo a whole match and he frankly gets very very predictable after a while. I simply dont want half the cast rated as 8-2 or 9-1 because that doesnt mean much.


Second of all, you only said i said nonsense, but i posted back explaining my point. I didnt dismiss you for not being pro anywhere. Its just that realistically popo will not win at top level agaisnt alot of the cast. Sopo isnt my field of expertise, but frankly if he would win at this level we would see some people playing sopo and winning tourneys.

C -Up to now i have attacked mostly your arguments, this isnt dismissing your expertise, this is debating. Fair is a bad move for MK, run in shield just completely overrides it, MK is much better using his dtilt or dair or grab.


IV: Please be clearer when your reffering to which character, he or him doesnt mean anything now since sopo is alone D=




(notice how i used different formattings for each, lmao that was effed up)

 

[FrozenHobo]

1) ok

second, wtf? you can only play as only sopo via hacks... how COULD we see anyone playing a sopo competitively if he wasn't part of an IC team to begin with?

C- 90-% of the MKs i've gone up against use fairs to pressure shields as i utitl to stop dairs. i'm going by my experiences in the matchup and what i've come across is him pushing me towards the edge with fairs/etc.

IV) i'll try to be clearer, but generally when i say 'him' i'm referring to SoPo because, well, he's now a single character and a male.... so HE would be a HIM.



and yes, that formatting was f'd up to hell.

 

[momochuu]

What are you two even arguing about?

 

[Teh Future]

^lol KB ftw

 

[Bnzaaa]

I'll try to contribute later.

 

[DemonicTrilogy]

1) ok

second, wtf? you can only play as only sopo via hacks... how COULD we see anyone playing a sopo competitively if he wasn't part of an IC team to begin with?

C- 90-% of the MKs i've gone up against use fairs to pressure shields as i utitl to stop dairs. i'm going by my experiences in the matchup and what i've come across is him pushing me towards the edge with fairs/etc.

IV) i'll try to be clearer, but generally when i say 'him' i'm referring to SoPo because, well, he's now a single character and a male.... so HE would be a HIM.



and yes, that formatting was f'd up to hell.

Edit: This somehow went into a random direction.. Move along now...

 

[FrozenHobo]

How the heck are you going to pressure him to the edge?

read, i said HE pressures ME to the edge. i'm not MK.

i swear to god, do you even read what i type? you're responce sounds like you think i said we **** MK. not even close.

 

[swordgard]

read, i said HE pressures ME to the edge. i'm not MK.

i swear to god, do you even read what i type? you're responce sounds like you think i said we **** MK. not even close.

We **** MK!