Olimar Matchup Directory

[DtJ Hilt]

Falco is definitely even. What does Falco have that messes us up, Greward? I'm not seeing anything that would set it as a solid advantage for him, and barely even enough for a Slight Advantage.

Also I understand your feelings on Sheik, lol. It's a troublesome matchup, but it isn't that bad. Trust me.

You should pick two or three characters and give us your reasons for why you think they should be listed differently. That way we can discuss them and possibly change what's listed in the chart. Because just giving us your list isn't going to get anything done, haha.

 

[-Vocal-]

So how about we get that Icies thread up? I just got beaten miserably by them; not as badly as before, but I've still got a long way to go :/

 

[Dnyce]

Falco is definitely even. What does Falco have that messes us up, Greward? I'm not seeing anything that would set it as a solid advantage for him, and barely even enough for a Slight Advantage.

Jab. Play dehf, I know there aren't any falco's in the midwest Hilt.

 

[Greward]

I find falco horrible, if he gets a grab at low % u will most likely get a stock less because of the chaingrab to spike. if we dont get spiked to die, we get at least like 60% damage (Cg to spike on the ground, then they put us on the ground, jab to grab to follow up). the side b (phantasm?) its another big problem. its really difficult to stop it with olimar, i think nair / utilt / upB / ftilt are the only reliable ones (other attacks are pikmin dependant, i dont know about dtilt or jab). nair is the only safe one, the other requires us to being in the ground, and if i do utilt falco usually DI out and punish me so i dont use it. upB is not reliable at all neither. sometimes the fsmash or fair will stop it but only with some pikmins like yellow / red / purple and it will depend on where are u hitting (the middle of the side b, the begining or the last part, im sorry for this bad description but i dont know how to say it in english xD). in conclusion, im saying that falco's side b is really hard for us to stop it consistently except when we completely read it. upsmash only stops it on the last part of the side b, and i dont think we will be that far when he throws a side b.
falco can dair in our shield, then jab if we shieldgrab or grab if we stay shielding. jab to grab usually works against olimar. he has got a lot of good killing options against olimar (unlike he usually do), and we dont. We shouldnt be getting usmashes against him (jab stop it and his attacks usually arent lagless enough to punish it with usmash), but fortunately most falcos are stupid and dodge all the time so its easy to get a usmash in. In the case they dont like to spam dodges grab is usually our best killing option and its really dependant on our lineup. he can dair to bair / uair to get kills, but if hes not fast we can whistle it.
his jab always get in the way and outprioritizes everything lol **** that jab
getting out of the ledge is **** difficult, he can shield to usmash most of our aerials, and the other options arent really good. fsmash will hit u grabbing on the ledge lol its stupid.
if he tries to outcamp olimar it will be easy to win, we outcamp him easily. just try to get the timing of the down b and its pretty much done. but i dont think falcos will try to camp olimar.
he has got solid approaches and reliable killing options, his chaingrab completely destroys us, if he gets it right its a stock less. i know he wont be always getting it but if he gets 2 in a set of 3 matches its just like playing 2 matches with 1 stock less, thats why i think its really bad.
in conclusion, it should be evenish but he has got that stupid chaingrab that makes it in his advantage because he can get easily a 0 to death kill. i know that theorically it doesnt look like a difficult matchup but when u play it u really see hell xD falco has got those fast and high priority attacks that olimar hates in all his moveset.
In conclusion, CG, jab and side b of falco's is what makes it so difficult.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Jab. Play dehf, I know there aren't any falco's in the midwest Hilt.

But a solid Disadvantage? Really Fino? You think it's as hard as Meta Knight? You listed it as a slight disadvantage in your list. I could definitely see it being a slight disadvantage, but a solid one is a bit of a stretch, imo.

 

[BOB SAGET!]

DEHF is crazy, prolly better than every oli.

Explain some more fino.....

 

[Dotcom]

Falco is like dead even, I'd be willing to argue that down to the teeth. I like that matchup honestly,Warily is even too. Shieks REALLY not a disadvantage, you just have to get used to how sheik plays.

 

[Dnyce]

But a solid Disadvantage? Really Fino? You think it's as hard as Meta Knight? You listed it as a slight disadvantage in your list. I could definitely see it being a slight disadvantage, but a solid one is a bit of a stretch, imo.

We have more options against mk than we do Falco. Also ratios are pointless, I did that for fun and for the sake of contribution.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

We have more options against mk than we do Falco.

Conversely, MK has more options against us than Falco does.



Arguing just for the sake of arguing, btw

 

[-Vocal-]

Oh you guys!

*audience laughter*

 

[Greward]

MK its not that difficult

 

[Dnyce]

MK its not that difficult

Mmm... I have to agree with greward ;o

Mk is easier to play against than Falco.

**** Falco

 

[BOB SAGET!]

**** MK

priority *****.

 

[Greward]

I love fair against MK. if MK uses his fair u will usually trade hits with him if u fair, this means ~15% dmg for him and 3% dmg for u. If hes spamming dairs u can full jump and fair him from the angle with no hitbox, it also works wonders against peach. oh and dair oos is really useful after MK do a dsmash in ur shield, they will usually get hit because they dont expect it and then u can follow up with a guaranteed uair. MK is easy to juggle and his aerial speed is not good. I love playing MK until i get gimped at ridicolous percents hahah

i wanna play with some american MK but i wouldnt say its that bad as i thinked some time before.

btw i want to know why its falco supposed to be even. i havent seen dehf being beaten by olimars at all

 

[-Vocal-]

I love fair against MK. if MK uses his fair u will usually trade hits with him if u fair, this means ~15% dmg for him and 3% dmg for u. If hes spamming dairs u can full jump and fair him from the angle with no hitbox, it also works wonders against peach. oh and dair oos is really useful after MK do a dsmash in ur shield, they will usually get hit because they dont expect it and then u can follow up with a guaranteed uair. MK is easy to juggle and his aerial speed is not good. I love playing MK until i get gimped at ridicolous percents hahah

i wanna play with some american MK but i wouldnt say its that bad as i thinked some time before.

btw i want to know why its falco supposed to be even. i havent seen dehf being beaten by olimars at all

That dair thing sounds useful. As for Falco, I can't speak.

 

[Noa.]

Yes fair is great against MK and Peach. Dair thing is nice. I'll use it.

Larry is just better than any other Olis right now. Albeit Rich does well against him, even taking matches off of him.

 

[Dnyce]

Larry is just better than any other Olis right now. Albeit Rich does well against him, even taking matches off of him.

That and falco ***** olimar. Note how every time Rich says he takes games off Larry it's because of some gimmick kill or gimp? Just sayin...

 

[BOB SAGET!]

That and falco ***** olimar. Note how every time Rich says he takes games off Larry it's because of some gimmick kill or gimp? Just sayin...

Note how Rich is actually taking games off Larry. Just sayin...

 

[Dnyce]

Note how Rich is actually taking games off Larry. Just sayin...

I'm sure I can take games off m2k if I got luck kills on him too. Unfortunately for these situations, gimmick kills only happen at the expense of an inexperienced opponent, ie it happens once and most likely never again.

Note how Rich isn't taking sets of Larry. That's what counts last I checked.

 

[-Vocal-]

If only, if only, the woodpecker cried
Falco could not jab, then he'd finally die

Not the best, but let's see you do better ^_^

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Holes was such a good book. The movie was decent I guess.

 

[-Vocal-]

I never saw the movie; I just automatically figured they butchered it :D

 

[MiniTroika]

Greward, I want to say that Meta Knight is really difficult if you're dealing with ones that know the matchup. SoCal is full of those. The D-air is only good at mid-high percentages when Meta will be sent high up. Anything lower can result in getting hit by a D-air or N-air or whatever he chooses.

If you blocked Meta's D-Smash, you can shield grab him with ease. If he's behind you, you can pivot grab if you're fast enough. I don't want to take away the validity of your suggestion, but I do suppose there are better options. D-throw sets-up a juggle too.

 

[Greward]

MK's dsmash sometimes cant be shieldgrabed, so dair is a good option. and dthrow at 50% hasnt got a guaranteed followup =P spikes have got more hitstun than the other hits. anyways i wasnt talking of the best option, its just a really good mixup i havent seen being used in US' olimars. sometimes ive killed someone at like 60% with a red dair hitting with the strong hit (not the spike one)

MK usually dair when sent high so we just have to wait for them to dair and then dj to uair them. if they dont know the matchup they will try to poke our shield with it but its pretty punishable.
the worst thing about MK imo is his dthrow, hes difficult of course but not as much as marth or the parrot, i still have to play M2K though

 

[Dnyce]

MK's dsmash sometimes cant be shieldgrabed.

The only time I can think of when it can't be shield-grabbed is on wifi =/ Mk has major frame disadvantage if he hits a shield with dsmash.

 

[BOB SAGET!]

Ya, it so annoying when u cant shield grab the dsmash on wifi.

EDIT: To win sets you have to win matches. Richbrown has accomplished this first step.

 

[Greward]

The only time I can think of when it can't be shield-grabbed is on wifi =/ Mk has major frame disadvantage if he hits a shield with dsmash.

lol i dont know i just remember some times that i couldnt shieldgrab his dsmash dunno if it was wifi.

 

[Dnyce]

EDIT: To win sets you have to win matches. Richbrown has accomplished this first step.

Well okay then guys, I've taken the first step to beating mewtwoking so metaknight is obviously 70:30 in our favor.
//sarcasm

What a boring troll.

 

[Noa.]

I checked the MK frame data and we can definetly shield grab MK's dsmash. Quite a few frames to accomplish it as well.

 

[BOB SAGET!]

Well okay then guys, I've taken the first step to beating mewtwoking so metaknight is obviously 70:30 in our favor.
//sarcasm

What a boring troll.

I never said or implied anything like that!

What a ******.

 

[Greward]

dehf was sandbagging

 

[DtJ Hilt]

lol well, are people in agreement for Falco to be moved to "Disadvantage"? I'd like to hear from Rich first if possible, but I'm pretty much convinced.

 

[Dnyce]

I never said or implied anything like that!

What a ******.

Maybe you should read a conversation before bringing yourself into it then bob. The initial statement by draco was that Larry is better than every olimar right now, which may be why I am bias in saying that falco is such a bad match-up.

Since Match-up is based on two equal skill level players, draco was implying that the match-up may be better than we think since players like larry just out skill us. He made the aside assertion noting that Rich does "well" against larry giving credit to rich being close in skill.

 

[-Vocal-]

I'm in agreement. I always felt it was disadvantage, but I felt that it was just my inexperience that made it that way. Now that I've heard that it's still tough when you're good, I'm definitely in favor of relisting him.

Iz want a fraym daytuh fore da dare

 

[BOB SAGET!]

Maybe you should read a conversation before bringing yourself into it then bob. The initial statement by draco was that Larry is better than every olimar right now, which may be why I am bias in saying that falco is such a bad match-up.

Since Match-up is based on two equal skill level players, draco was implying that the match-up may be better than we think since players like larry just out skill us. He made the aside assertion noting that Rich does "well" against larry giving credit to rich being close in skill.

Can somebody give me a fork so I can stick it into my eye?

All I said was winning matches against such a good player is pretty good. You said it yourself, Drac was the one who commented on the mu ratio. That's all I commented on, don't pull me into ****.

 

[RichBrown]

Posting from my phone, I have a LOT to say on this, but right now I just want to assert that Oli-Falco is 55-45

Jab really screws us up, but we just gotta treat Falco like ICs and not get grabbed/land in front of him/close the gap for no reason.

I've beaten Larry once ever (november, and he won R3 the following weekend lol), he's beaten me ~12 times dating back to early 2009. 6 of those sets were finals, with him winning either 3-1 or 3-0. 4 of those sets were close game 3, the rest 2-0.

I usually play him very close with game 3 coming down to the last stock, and I've been studying the **** out of the vids that were posted. Last time I played him we went super close in winners finals. I won game 1 solidly, and games 2-4 were all last hit with him winning each of them. He tends to get at least 2-3 gimmick kills per set himself, which is something I really gotta fix.

It's in Falco's favor, but not to the degree Fino says. Larry is on a completely different level from just about any player. Every other Falco I've played for about a year and a half now I've found relatively simple (including SK92, no disrespect lol).

Just predict the sideB with utilt, then grab their landing lag, or dsmash it. Stay out of grab range, keep a gap at all times even when he seems open. Don't get grabbed, whistle a lot at KO percents.

I'm also looking into grab combos on Falco, that's something that with practice we could REALLY capitalize on (dthrow-dair-usmash is guaranteed)

Oh also sometimes just face the other way and shield his sideB and grab him.

But yeah I think the key might be to really land those grab combos, and also to eff up his sideB/get him off stage

Also I just theorycrafted this gimp literally this instant: if you grab him at the ledge, and you can't dthrow-dair, but he's at a somewhat low percent, throw him off the ledge, then dtilt his sideB, then jump and spike him. It should work because they will be afraid of a gimp so they'll just wanna get back to the stage, and if they attack after the dtilt they might fall off the stage, if they airdodge they fall off the stage, and if they try to sideB they will get spiked.

But yeah this is winnable, just 55-45. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

Fino cut the "Falco is impossible" act, that kind of mentality is what's gonna prevent you from ever being on my level <3

 

[BOB SAGET!]

thank u rich brown.

 

[MiniTroika]

Rich, are you coming to Lakewood for sure this Saturday? I think that we can find some interesting things.

Hilt, if you find the knock back data on the pikmin colors and they're throws, you might be able to confirm something I've been working on.

 

[Dnyce]

That's all I commented on, don't pull me into ****.

Then don't enter into **** when no one asked for your opinion.

Posting from my phone, I have a LOT to say on this, but right now I just want to assert that Oli-Falco is 55-45

Jab really screws us up, but we just gotta treat Falco like ICs and not get grabbed/land in front of him/close the gap for no reason.

I've beaten Larry once ever (november, and he won R3 the following weekend lol), he's beaten me ~12 times dating back to early 2009. 6 of those sets were finals, with him winning either 3-1 or 3-0. 4 of those sets were close game 3, the rest 2-0.

I usually play him very close with game 3 coming down to the last stock, and I've been studying the **** out of the vids that were posted. Last time I played him we went super close in winners finals. I won game 1 solidly, and games 2-4 were all last hit with him winning each of them. He tends to get at least 2-3 gimmick kills per set himself, which is something I really gotta fix.

It's in Falco's favor, but not to the degree Fino says. Larry is on a completely different level from just about any player. Every other Falco I've played for about a year and a half now I've found relatively simple (including SK92, no disrespect lol).

Just predict the sideB with utilt, then grab their landing lag, or dsmash it. Stay out of grab range, keep a gap at all times even when he seems open. Don't get grabbed, whistle a lot at KO percents.

I'm also looking into grab combos on Falco, that's something that with practice we could REALLY capitalize on (dthrow-dair-usmash is guaranteed)

Oh also sometimes just face the other way and shield his sideB and grab him.

But yeah I think the key might be to really land those grab combos, and also to eff up his sideB/get him off stage

Also I just theorycrafted this gimp literally this instant: if you grab him at the ledge, and you can't dthrow-dair, but he's at a somewhat low percent, throw him off the ledge, then dtilt his sideB, then jump and spike him. It should work because they will be afraid of a gimp so they'll just wanna get back to the stage, and if they attack after the dtilt they might fall off the stage, if they airdodge they fall off the stage, and if they try to sideB they will get spiked.

But yeah this is winnable, just 55-45. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

Important stuff in red.

Fino cut the "Falco is impossible" act, that kind of mentality is what's gonna prevent you from ever being on my level <3

But I love trollin :3

Seriously though, **** falco... hahaha.

 

[RichBrown]

I should also point out that most of those sets were wayyy before I got to the level I am now lol

We are talking about learning how to beat a single player at this point, not a character.