Olimar general discussion

[steelguttey]

how do the changes force him to play campier?

 

[blandsabbath]

I guess im just used to playing him with harder approaches and i dont grab as often as most im sure, but his grab game feels pretty ridiculious now, i dig it. his U-tilt is great in my opinion now

 

[RelaxAlax]

Guys when you press neutral b as u pass thru a platform u instantly stand on it, sorta like a waveland but like, instant. Try it yourselves. It may be a glitch.

 

[blandsabbath]

Guys when you press neutral b as u pass thru a platform u instantly stand on it, sorta like a waveland but like, instant. Try it yourselves. It may be a glitch.

holy **** this is so good

 

[blandsabbath]

i feel like running solo yellow pikmin is insane good

 

[steelguttey]

Guys when you press neutral b as u pass thru a platform u instantly stand on it, sorta like a waveland but like, instant. Try it yourselves. It may be a glitch.

been there since 3.0

 

[blandsabbath]

been there since 3.0

i know IMO it feels a lot easier to pull off. After more i agree with you steel, Olimar is just so much better now

 

[RelaxAlax]

been there since 3.0

Youre always so unpleasant lool

 

[steelguttey]

Youre always so unpleasant lool

im the low tier grinch

 

[C0rvus]

So, I've always been sort of passively interesting in Olimar, and messing with him today and playing against a local player who knew how to use him, I am thinking of trying him out. 3.6 seems to have been kind to him. His grab game is ridiculous now! And his recovery got much-needed consistency. I'll hit the lab tomorrow.

 

[steelguttey]

his grab game has always been ridiculous what

 

[C0rvus]

Well it's better now. I mean, why did they even buff blue throws? They were already crazy strong. And having a better shield grab is pretty big.

 

[steelguttey]

blues got buffed by damage which was nice but jesus christ purple kills so unnecessarily early now

 

[robosteven]

I'm still (and will remain) bitter about his nair not being as good as it used to be, but so far I couldn't be happier with the changes. Up/down-throw is an actual mixup now (meaning I can actually use down-throw), hitting people is satisfying because animation changes, and two-Pikmin-only is viable now.

blues got buffed by damage which was nice but jesus christ purple kills so unnecessarily early now

steel please

 

[Ningildo]

Fsmash is a literal "OBJECTION!" pose from Phoenix Wright and I will have no one telling me different.

 

[C0rvus]

I'm definitely a big fan of the new smash animations. They are a bit more dynamic. But man, Olimar is more challenging than I thought. With no set order of Pikmin, you really have to go with the flow, and it's been hard to get kills when I get unlucky pulls, but when it rains, it pours, so to speak.


I hadn't thought of not having a full lineup before. In the past, you needed them all if you wanted to recover. But now, you can just go aggro with a red and a purple if you want. That's really cool.

 

[RelaxAlax]

It's all about management. Back in the day we had to run in a line to see the next in order, atleast we have the light to help us now

Even still, you gotta get use to atleast planning for what Pikmin you have next in line. For example, if I have a white then a blue, I'll chuck it at my opponent and no matter what they do i'll react to grab. Sometimes it's not about getting the Pikmin you want, but rather making sure you don't get one you don't want, such as a white when trying to fair. I like his micro managing factor. But you are right when you say you gotta play with the cards your dealt. I personally find that fun, bc usually your opponent will have to react to you reacting to what you've got.

 

[robosteven]

Every combo of two (except two whites, which is easy to fix because side-b) is manageable. I ****ing love this patch.

 

[blandsabbath]

I've really been leveling up in this new patch, its so good!

 

[Shokio]

Olimar's sooooo strong on-stage now. I went all Olimar tonight at IaB and got 7th in a pretty stacked bracket. Just dont get off-stage

 

[blandsabbath]

Olimar's sooooo strong on-stage now. I went all Olimar tonight at IaB and got 7th in a pretty stacked bracket. Just dont get off-stage

I've actually really wanted to hear your input on new Oli, @ Shokio . I've tried running a bunch of different mixing of pikmin, and I'm really happy going in with solo yellow early percentage, and going with red or best scenario purples for knock outs. I also feel the bait game is strong with this one.

 

[zygo]

Hey guys, just thought I would give my opinion on the 3.6 update. After reading the things you guys have said I almost wonder if we're playing the same character. The extra endlag on many of his moves hit him really hard, and right now his recovery is an absolute joke. I can't believe I'm saying this but if things don't change in a major way from the beta to full release I am about to drop him as a main. I can't stand playing him anymore. I've been exclusively an olimar main since 3.02 but 3.6 is a huge, completely unnecessary nerf to one of the acknowledged worst characters in the game.

The grab endlag puts a huge damper on his onstage game, and the terrible up-b coupled with the down-air lag means that edgeguarding with it is more likely to get you killed than the opponent. Extra lag on neutral-b means less aerial mobility & recovery (why on earth did this need more endlag???).

Increased lag for at least 4 moves(!) (neutral b, dair, all grabs, up-throw) and the only decrease was 2 frames on his grab startup, which is nice but isn't enough to make shield-grabbing viable in most situations. Extra pikmin damage for flowers is cool but encourages campiness & slow matches, which is ok I guess but not the style I like to play. Yellow pikmin buffs are cool but don't make up for everything that went wrong this update.

The up-b:

makes using whatever pikmin you like viable, sure, but in exchange for ruining your recovery. Having to use your up-b to recover is losing a stock against any competent player since there is no sweetspot. Swag up-b combo finishers are gone(nooo); he has no move to cover that angle any more because new up-b starts on frame 20. Exhaust hitbox hits at 70 degree angle and has tiny knockback, which is completely worthless even if you ever could land it. New up-b can't multi-hit even opponents that are not using DI, and does insignificant damage & knockback even if by some miracle you were to get every hit.

I could go on, but I think you get the point. I wanted as much as anybody for 3.6 olimar to be the best yet. I dedicated all my time and effort to olimar since I started PM because I wanted to prove that he had what it took. For 3.6 arguably the worst character in the game got nerfed even more, and I'm done getting a stick in the eye every single update. At best he'll be a secondary for me, but I don't believe in him any more. If the PMDT leaves him like this I'm done trying to swim up the waterfall.

 

[steelguttey]

Hey guys, just thought I would give my opinion on the 3.6 update. After reading the things you guys have said I almost wonder if we're playing the same character. The extra endlag on many of his moves hit him really hard, and right now his recovery is an absolute joke. I can't believe I'm saying this but if things don't change in a major way from the beta to full release I am about to drop him as a main. I can't stand playing him anymore. I've been exclusively an olimar main since 3.02 but 3.6 is a huge, completely unnecessary nerf to one of the acknowledged worst characters in the game.

The grab endlag puts a huge damper on his onstage game, and the terrible up-b coupled with the down-air lag means that edgeguarding with it is more likely to get you killed than the opponent. Extra lag on neutral-b means less aerial mobility & recovery (why on earth did this need more endlag???).

Increased lag for at least 4 moves(!) (neutral b, dair, all grabs, up-throw) and the only decrease was 2 frames on his grab startup, which is nice but isn't enough to make shield-grabbing viable in most situations. Extra pikmin damage for flowers is cool but encourages campiness & slow matches, which is ok I guess but not the style I like to play. Yellow pikmin buffs are cool but don't make up for everything that went wrong this update.

The up-b:

makes using whatever pikmin you like viable, sure, but in exchange for ruining your recovery. Having to use your up-b to recover is losing a stock against any competent player since there is no sweetspot. Swag up-b combo finishers are gone(nooo); he has no move to cover that angle any more because new up-b starts on frame 20. Exhaust hitbox hits at 70 degree angle and has tiny knockback, which is completely worthless even if you ever could land it. New up-b can't multi-hit even opponents that are not using DI, and does insignificant damage & knockback even if by some miracle you were to get every hit.

I could go on, but I think you get the point. I wanted as much as anybody for 3.6 olimar to be the best yet. I dedicated all my time and effort to olimar since I started PM because I wanted to prove that he had what it took. For 3.6 arguably the worst character in the game got nerfed even more, and I'm done getting a stick in the eye every single update. At best he'll be a secondary for me, but I don't believe in him any more. If the PMDT leaves him like this I'm done trying to swim up the waterfall.

im gonna solve your problem with the grab nerf. dont miss. its an amazing grab with huge range, why should you not be punished for missing it? it doesnt hurt his onstage game if you dont miss it. the game isnt going to be longer because youre camping btw, the game can go longer for zoning. aggro olimar always has sucked anyway. they buffed everything and youre focusing on nerfs that forced us to play smarter. adapt please

there is a sweetspot. not automatic like smash 4, but angle it better. the damage on his old up was pointless and was a joke, the exhaust kill is much cooler. its a slower and easier angled mario up b which i like.

hes b etter in nearly every way, stop focusing on the negatives. the rewards for flowers are huuuuge

EDIT: you know who else has an easy to edgeguard recovery? dk, bowser, falco, roy, falcon, ganon. unplayable characters? no. stop looking at patch notes and look at the character, thats the reason why 3.5 olimar was so overreacted. his neutral got buffed and his punish game got stupid buffed. hes fantastic now

 

[Virum]

For what it's worth the endlag on grab also serves as an important fix to the move. Olimar's grab before when perfectly spaced would consistently cause and instant grab release on the Pikmin's return to Olimar. This now doesn't happen. This was basically because of how the Brawl coders coded his grab. Olimar goes through his entire grab animation before transitioning into his grab idle upon getting a grab. However, if he entered his grab idle before the Pikmin had returned back to him the grab brakes as soon as the Pikmin returns. You may ask then why didn't we increase the reel in speed for the Pikmin. Well let's just say Olimar's is (along with ICs) the most finicky character to code so it made more sense and was much easier to compensate animation length. I think it's fair in the grand scheme of things considering the Olimar's grab is faster.

 

[Ningildo]

Up-b kills are non existent. Both for tethers and current up-b. Additionally, with tether, the only reason you'd make it back with it is either because you're edgeguarding or your opponent doesn't know how to hold ledge. When edgeguarded, the result is you being dead, just not immediately. You know what else? You get more then 2 chances to recover and your recovery isn't ducked if you get hit off stage with one pikmin, which happens more often then you'd expect.

From the sounds of it, you are spamming grabs in neutral more then you should and, due endlag, actually get punished for it now, so uh, don't miss 9.9

There's no lag increase on Dair, so placebo I guess. nB is more used to gain some horizontal air at the cost of height.

Sorry, but when you're salty about missing grabs and losing a hit (it will NEVER kill at reasonable percents) option that's almost purely a disrespect move and let that ignore the fact 3 pikmin got buffed (purple got reworked imo and white was left alone) and that the new grab gives us legit CGs...sounds like a case of "I don't like the changes and don't want to adapt.". Correct me if I'm being too presumptuous, though 9.9

 

[Virum]

Actually we goofed a little with the Oli changelog. DAir has 4 extra frames of endlag and aerial pluck has 9 extra frames. Mind you though, DAir was one of the lowest commitment meteors in the game offstage due to how low its endlag is. You could fastfall DAir below the stage and still make it back lol.

Please don't hurt us...

 

[Ningildo]

...well as long as it's start up is unchanged, it doesn't change things all that much.

Could've brought that up sooner, though >:

 

[blandsabbath]

we havent tried a 3.6 tourney at my locals yet, but i've seriously been wrecking friendlies. Neutral game is so good

 

[RelaxAlax]

Okay, I KNEW the aerial pluck took longer. It's like Ganons dark descent, where you can't stall with it while your low because you screw up your up+b. Actually, thanks for making Olimar kind of like Ganon for me. Also explains the instant platform stand it lets you do.

Also, idk if this happened before the grab fix @ Virum , but i went to grab Mario and just as I did he did his cape. What happened was it still grabbed him, but Olimar got pushed in the reverse direction facing opposite to Mario. The grab still worked fine just Olimar moved. Not really a gamechanging bug but I figure someone should know.

 

[Shokio]

I've actually really wanted to hear your input on new Oli, @ Shokio . I've tried running a bunch of different mixing of pikmin, and I'm really happy going in with solo yellow early percentage, and going with red or best scenario purples for knock outs. I also feel the bait game is strong with this one.

I think Oli is pretty great. We've regained a worthwhile reward for keeping our Pikmin and letting them flower, we got an improved punish game, faster grab, stronger throws, and an Up-B that at least doesn't "glitch" on you.

The nerfs are: 1) Dash attack isn't broken at high percents anymore lol, and 2) Whites gained KB so they're not as potent at super high percents. Both these these changes are incredibly reasonable and those strengths weren't necessary for Olimar to begin with. And White up-throws at really high percents still works on a lot of characters anyway.

The pros waaaaay out-weight the cons. Purps KO super early when budded since the knockback growth got added back for that Pikmin type, he has his old kill power back. In 3.5 he felt a tad bit too underwhelming when it came to his "boom, KO" moves. Reds also got knockback buffs indirectly because they got damage buffs, and damage affects knockback (for those who may not know).

Blue's were already super good, now they're even better, further improving his punish game.

Last I heard, the lack of grab armor can't really be fixed, but it's been minimized by them making the grab come out faster. I only got hit out of grab literally once this entire night. Normally, in 3.5 and before, it'd happen like 25% of the time unless they were spaced from a far distance. So the lack of grab armor has largely been mitigated.

On-stage, Olimar is a monster at racking up damage and punishing the living FVCK out of your opponent when they make a bad move. He's always been designed this way - the different traits of the Pikmin pretty much means that he has a good option for many situations - but now it's been perfected and solidified.

Is someone approaching? Stuff their approach with a quick, longer-ranged Yellow.
Out-spacing your opponent's? Retreating Bair them with Monique (Purps) and they're dead.
Running around in neutral? Throw a White on them and then apply pressure.
See a punish opportunity? Use a Blue to straight kill them or place them off-stage.

And it feels like FSmash goes even further and the latter hitboxes are actually stronger??

The only issue with Olimar is the new Up-B. Technically, it is a buff considering he will actually grab the ledge now if he touches it lol, and it can actually stage spike if their invincibility frames run out and you hit them at the right angle. But so far the move seems incredibly hard to sweetspot, it lacks any mixups, and it's very slow and punishable, still. I went into debug mode to see if something was wrong with his ledge grab box, but turns out it's fine. It seems like he doesn't snap to ledge when he should, though. Like, he can sweetspot, but it feels like his sweetspot is delayed. He just kinda lingers at the ledge for 3-4 frames before he actually grabs it.

I also don't think there's nearly enough control over the angling of the Up-B. You can't really recover early by flying horizontally or wait and go low and then recover vertically. The 45 degree it has seems very strict and is very punishable. But maybe this is just us not being used to it yet. I will lab more and experiment.

Other than that, I think Olimar is absolutely perfect now. He needs no more buffs, and no more nerfs. The Up-B as of right now needs to be tweaked but that's pretty much. Anyone quitting Olimar now because of his 3.6 changes makes me lol, cause this is the BEST Olimar we've had so for from a design standpoint. He's nice and balanced.

 

[RelaxAlax]

^ Yeah when you get below the ledge, Olimar can't do a straight vertical. I've even had times where I accidentally turned around with up+b and screwed myself. I like how you can changes the distance and height, but in some situations its a pretty low tier recovery. However, I think it's justified for how good Olimar is on stage. If your facing someone good, they shouldn't let you get back on stage for free anyways. Atleast now we can go out far, gimp with Pikmin with no fear and make it back.

 

[zygo]

It's unclear to me why the pmdt thought the old tether recovery even needed to be changed. It wasn't buggy, just needed a little more visual integrity (lengthen the grab range or shorten the appearance of the pikmin). If you were tethered and somebody had the ledge you actually had 3 options: ledge hop onto stage (eat a punish but probably still be on stage), fade back for the fakeout, or fade back, edge-cancel the landing lag and fair the opponent for a stage-spike. It was fine as a recovery, not too strong or too weak.

 

[steelguttey]

im guessing nobody in your region knew how to edgeguard it because that **** was free. also, it was changed because it was the buggiest move in the game what

 

[zygo]

Buggy in what way? It never failed if you were actually close enough, though your pikmin do sometimes decide to go take a smoke break in the middle of a match and let you die. And it was a lot less free than this new up-b. @Silentdoom Fixing the grab in that way makes some sense, but I doubt it required 10 extra frames of lag to fix. Old up-b was not a "disrespect" move, it extended combos by covering an area that none of his other moves could and as a plus would kill in the right circumstances.

@ Shokio I would love to be convinced that olimar is better now than in 3.5 but I'm really not seeing it. I'll probably play him in tournament for a while still until I get good with somebody else, but from the experiments & netplay I have done so far it's not looking good.

 

[C0rvus]

Sometimes I miss the tether, but then I remember all the times the thing just didn't work. And then I remember how free edgeguards are against tethers. His new recovery is kind of booty, but at least it's consistent. I also enjoy the greater freedom in Pikmin lineup and having the ability to more freely use pikmin to cover your return to the stage. The extra frames on the pluck stall makes little sense to me though.

 

[Shokio]

^ Yeah when you get below the ledge, Olimar can't do a straight vertical. I've even had times where I accidentally turned around with up+b and screwed myself.

Ok, good to hear someone else confirm this. I swear sometimes you'll try to Up-B to the left, and he just rockets to the right. Every time this happens I look down at my thumb that I keep in-place just so I can know for sure which direction I was holding in. It's super, super weird.

And yeah, at first I was like "This Up-B is either just as bad or possibly worse than the tether", but then I remembered that his recovery doesn't rely on Pikmin anymore and then I was like, "Huh, this is OK." I agree, I do like the 2 different distances you can do. The recovery is still kinda weird though. Weird angle, weird control, and even the way it rides up walls just feels......weird.

Buggy in what way? It never failed if you were actually close enough, though your pikmin do sometimes decide to go take a smoke break in the middle of a match and let you die. And it was a lot less free than this new up-b. @Silentdoom Fixing the grab in that way makes some sense, but I doubt it required 10 extra frames of lag to fix. Old up-b was not a "disrespect" move, it extended combos by covering an area that none of his other moves could and as a plus would kill in the right circumstances.

@ Shokio I would love to be convinced that olimar is better now than in 3.5 but I'm really not seeing it. I'll probably play him in tournament for a while still until I get good with somebody else, but from the experiments & netplay I have done so far it's not looking good.

Bruh, Monique kills at like, 70%. What more do you want?

 

[steelguttey]

Buggy in what way? It never failed if you were actually close enough, though your pikmin do sometimes decide to go take a smoke break in the middle of a match and let you die. And it was a lot less free than this new up-b. @Silentdoom Fixing the grab in that way makes some sense, but I doubt it required 10 extra frames of lag to fix. Old up-b was not a "disrespect" move, it extended combos by covering an area that none of his other moves could and as a plus would kill in the right circumstances.

@ Shokio I would love to be convinced that olimar is better now than in 3.5 but I'm really not seeing it. I'll probably play him in tournament for a while still until I get good with somebody else, but from the experiments & netplay I have done so far it's not looking good.

you just answered your question. it was buggy because ot relied on pikmin and it was free because all the had to do was read you and they got you offstage. we couldnt do the dropdown lime zss and we couldnt razor leaf to get them off the ledge like ivy. the grab did require 10 frames because that was the window they could break out. you shouldnt be ending combos in a way where they were in up b range anyway. you always should end combos with fair so you can stack pikmin onto them.

olimar is better in nearly every way and youre only looking at the negatives. not having to have 4 pikmin is the best buff we can think to hae and opens our gameplan up loaaads

 

[blandsabbath]

@ Shokio Thank you for explaining your thoughts on the new Oli so well, everything you said are basically things i thought but i couldn't word. It's hard to see anyone complaining with this Olimar, he's got so many ground options its insane. His punish game makes me feel like a step-dad who hates his step children, and if them kids mess up, you know step dad Oli is gonna fux em up big time.

I've also been trying to find a more appropriate timing to Up-B so i can get that sweet sweet ledge but it's odd. Regardless i feel OG if i hit anyone with my Up-B because it makes me feel good inside

 

[steelguttey]

we can all agree theres no arguement that down taunt is the best taunt

 

[blandsabbath]

we can all agree theres no arguement that down taunt is the best taunt

speaking of which, did you guys see the new tech i found? I posted a video on the PM social thread, ill repost.