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Olimar general discussion

zygo

Smash Rookie
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Nov 27, 2014
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Using 2 or one pikmin is risky because Olimar's neutral game relies on side-b. Not to mention that since the health nerfs, pikmin die after a trade or two which means you'll soon be left at the mercy of the RNG when your pikmin die. I agree I'm kinda playing devil's advocate here but honestly I can start to understand why SS left olimar after 3.5. 3.5 was a big nerf, and this is another one, and neither one has any logic behind it since no Olimar main has ever won even a medium-sized tournament as far as I know. I just can't stand my character getting kicked while he's already down.

@ steelguttey steelguttey I appreciate your obvious love for olimar but I disagree wholeheartedly about 3.6 being overall a buff. Also, why is "it's too hard to program" an excuse for a huge nerf? I'm sure you can find a way to work around it without resorting to adding 10 frames of endlag. Anyway, I would rather have people break free 1 time in 10 than eat a charged f-smash to the face every time somebody jumps, rolls, or spotdodges my grab. Upthrow->jump upair->djump upair leads into nothing but up-b, there is no other option. Haha that d-taunt, our taunt game just went through the roof. :p

@ Shokio Shokio I agree the purple and red buffs are nice. :p

BTW, has anybody noticed that Olimar's standing grab has the old amount of endlag? The changelog is wrong about that, and I'm not sure if that's a bug or if they meant to do that. Does standing grab not have the grab failure bug?
 
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steelguttey

mei is bei
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Using 2 or one pikmin is risky because Olimar's neutral game relies on side-b. Not to mention that since the health nerfs, pikmin die after a trade or two which means you'll soon be left at the mercy of the RNG when your pikmin die. I agree I'm kinda playing devil's advocate here but honestly I can start to understand why SS left olimar after 3.5. 3.5 was a big nerf, and this is another one, and neither one has any logic behind it since no Olimar main has ever won even a medium-sized tournament as far as I know. I just can't stand my character getting kicked while he's already down.

@ steelguttey steelguttey I appreciate your obvious love for olimar but I disagree wholeheartedly about 3.6 being overall a buff. Also, why is "it's too hard to program" an excuse for a huge nerf? I'm sure you can find a way to work around it without resorting to adding 10 frames of endlag. Anyway, I would rather have people break free 1 time in 10 than eat a charged f-smash to the face every time somebody jumps, rolls, or spotdodges my grab. Upthrow->jump upair->djump upair leads into nothing but up-b, there is no other option. Haha that d-taunt, our taunt game just went through the roof. :p

@ Shokio Shokio I agree the purple and red buffs are nice. :p

BTW, has anybody noticed that Olimar's standing grab has the old amount of endlag? The changelog is wrong about that, and I'm not sure if that's a bug or if they meant to do that. Does standing grab not have the grab failure bug?
again, the solution to the grab nerf is dont miss. it still has less lag than every other tether grab and we should be punished for missing a grab

our combo game, punish game, neutral, everythinf all got buffed and youre o ly looking at the negatives
 

Shokio

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Got my first stream match with 3.6 Olimar. It was against Lunchables so naturally I had to take an L, but it was a pretty entertaining set.


(P.S: Roy is hard AF)
 

blandsabbath

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Feb 10, 2015
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Damn @ Shokio Shokio good playing. You did some solid work against tink tho. I definitely can say I have a similar olimar playing style to you, and that Roy was no joke. Is there a link to the chalonge? Even making it to winners quarters with the crowd you play that's sick. Thanks for sharing this
 

Virum

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It's unclear to me why the pmdt thought the old tether recovery even needed to be changed. It wasn't buggy, just needed a little more visual integrity (lengthen the grab range or shorten the appearance of the pikmin). If you were tethered and somebody had the ledge you actually had 3 options: ledge hop onto stage (eat a punish but probably still be on stage), fade back for the fakeout, or fade back, edge-cancel the landing lag and fair the opponent for a stage-spike. It was fine as a recovery, not too strong or too weak.
Yes, clearly an inconsistent, unreliable recovery that relies on a resource with temperamental AI and that is fundamentally stupid and doesn't adhere to how recoveries in Melee and PM in general are is definitely "fine". This move wasn't fine at all and that's something that most Olimar mains can concur with. I'm personally one of the view that tether Up Bs are incredibly dumb (largely because of the fact that they require no precision on the user's part which, as mentioned before, goes against how recoveries and offstage interactions as a whole are in PM), though at least ZSS and Ivy have the benefit of at least having consistent Up Bs that double as powerful attacks. Olimar's Up B is neither of those.

The new Up B at least offers consistency. I can press Up B and feel in full control of what happens with regards to the move, and feel like if I was edgeguarded it was due to my own poor spacing/decision making. And it being not a particularly great recovery tool is okay. It's offset by his better onstage game and incredible damage output.
 

Shokio

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Damn @ Shokio Shokio good playing. You did some solid work against tink tho. I definitely can say I have a similar olimar playing style to you, and that Roy was no joke. Is there a link to the chalonge? Even making it to winners quarters with the crowd you play that's sick. Thanks for sharing this
Thanks man. Yeah, DFW is preeeety good lol.

http://tloc.challonge.com/IaB60
 

GeZ

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Switching to this character in 3.6.
Played a buncha matches with Yink and Dantarion, and bopped both for like, an hour, before they adapted and it became more even. Still, this Olimar is super sick. New recovery is really good, pikmin buffs are baller, taunt game too stronk. Have any of you guys gotten ledge cancel up B mid combo yet? It's kind of hard to follow up, but definitely super sick, when you can land it.
 

blandsabbath

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<------ "Smash Rookie" is the title i bear for a righteous reason

EDIT: as soon as i posted this, i switched to "Smash Cadet". Smashboards acknowledges I'm learning.

Switching to this character in 3.6.
Played a buncha matches with Yink and Dantarion, and bopped both for like, an hour, before they adapted and it became more even. Still, this Olimar is super sick. New recovery is really good, pikmin buffs are baller, taunt game too stronk. Have any of you guys gotten ledge cancel up B mid combo yet? It's kind of hard to follow up, but definitely super sick, when you can land it.
I have not even tried that really, but i'm really hoping more people do switch to olimar that'll be awesome. And the best Oli buff this patch is definitely the down Taunt tech. Them hips don't lie
 
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GeZ

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I actually have questions, and stuff, because I'm new to the character, so I'll start with that, I guess.

blues got buffed by damage which was nice but jesus christ purple kills so unnecessarily early now
I actually Fthrow > Fair'd Wolf, at like 50% and it did the big white whoosh hard hit animation, and str8 ended his life. Purple pikmin are monsters now.

Is it generally accepted that Nair is the best OoS option?
Is Ftilt good for anything?
Utilt seems like a niche combo extender/ possibly defensive move.
Dtilt is a neat little thing. Not sure what I want to do with it yet, but I've used it as a combo starter at high percents, which was aight.

I get that Olimar is supposed to be played pretty campy, but is there any super big reason he can't be aggressive in specific situations? Side B with purple pikmin > cross up Nair > stuff, seemed to be a tough to deal with situation. In general people say the character isn't aggressive, and I understand that they mean for the majority of the time, but it seems like, just due to the nature of side b pikmin stick pressure, he really has a more midrange micropositioning feel.

Edit: my other favorite moment of the night, besides comboing Snake into his own grenade/ C4 literally infinity times, was I had just lost a stock to Ike, who was at 118%. I came onto the stage and ****** about trying to smack him, but he put distance between us. Once my invulnerability wears off, he tries to QD > grab me, but I snipe his QD with a blue pikmin and Bthrow him out of the universe. I swear, blue pikmin Bthrow is the trooth. This character is sickness.
 
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RelaxAlax

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Nair use to be better, but still, you can use it out of shield or as a weak hit to trip up people.
Ftilt is janky. It will send opponents in the opposite direction sometimes and can be a KO move... just you have Pikmin and better options.
Utilt can be a juggle akin to Marios utilt. Not to toot my own horn by Oli feels like Ganon/Mario in some respects.
Dtilt can be punished hard like Dash Attack, but can be a surprising move because it moves Olimar forward. I've had it toss opponents in the air setting up for fair.

I personally think once Olimar gets his game started up by capitalizing on someones mistakes, you can go all in. Once you get that first grab you can do work imo. Olimar can even extend his combos offstage but I think thats subjective to playstyle.

And yeah, blue backthrow is great. It'll probably get nerfed though because it's too good.

Once you got Pikmin orders down and how Olimar works you'll be able to see this characters colors more (Zing). I like Olimar because the way to play him is unorthodox and usually people don't like it - i may just be a character hipster.
 

Latch

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White pikmin.

I've seen most people say it's best to throw them. However, I've waffled between whether it's better to NOT throw them, and wait for them to flower. Thing is, they extend combos really well, and when you get a flower on somebody's head it does like 15% IIRC in addition to the hit itself. Plus, once they're flowered side b will flower your opponent's head. It just seems to me that you get crazy damaging combos with a flowered white.

What do you guys think? Obviously there's a good time to white side b, but usually it only gets like 6% if they aren't flowered.

Edit: said flower 6 times good luck deciphering lol
 
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Shokio

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Thanks for the link, did you play oli against strong bad? Also black olimar is best olimar
I did Oli all night. Took SB to last hit last stock game 1, took 2 stocks game 2. Olimar does pretty well against Wario.


I actually have questions, and stuff, because I'm new to the character, so I'll start with that, I guess.



I actually Fthrow > Fair'd Wolf, at like 50% and it did the big white whoosh hard hit animation, and str8 ended his life. Purple pikmin are monsters now.

Is it generally accepted that Nair is the best OoS option?
Is Ftilt good for anything?
Utilt seems like a niche combo extender/ possibly defensive move.
Dtilt is a neat little thing. Not sure what I want to do with it yet, but I've used it as a combo starter at high percents, which was aight.

I get that Olimar is supposed to be played pretty campy, but is there any super big reason he can't be aggressive in specific situations? Side B with purple pikmin > cross up Nair > stuff, seemed to be a tough to deal with situation. In general people say the character isn't aggressive, and I understand that they mean for the majority of the time, but it seems like, just due to the nature of side b pikmin stick pressure, he really has a more midrange micropositioning feel.

Edit: my other favorite moment of the night, besides comboing Snake into his own grenade/ C4 literally infinity times, was I had just lost a stock to Ike, who was at 118%. I came onto the stage and ****** about trying to smack him, but he put distance between us. Once my invulnerability wears off, he tries to QD > grab me, but I snipe his QD with a blue pikmin and Bthrow him out of the universe. I swear, blue pikmin Bthrow is the trooth. This character is sickness.
Nair is the best unless you have a Yellow up in line next, which as we all know come out faster and have more range. So I like to Bair/Fair out of shield them. Ftilt can be used to edgeguard missed sweetspot and it can actually kill if they don't DI it, which is likely. Yeah, you can just use FSmash or DSmash for punishing those, but it's a good option for when you don't want to hurt/sacrifice your Pikmin.

Up-tilt is amazing and can be always followed-up with a Nair or Fair/Bair, and it WRECKS fast-fallers.

D-tilt is incredible. Not only is it's knockback great for combos, but it's good against characters like Fox and Falcon who like to Nair in, because he can actually duck under their attacks and then get the positional advantage once they land. I use it as a dodge tool as often as I use it as a combo tool.

Olimar doesn't have to play like Brawl Olimar, we just can't be aggro all the time unless like I said before, it's against an opponent who's weaker than you. I feel that the best way to play him is hot-cold. Dance-dash, side-b, create/wait for an opening, then go in. Like you said, Side-B Purple into Nair as an approach is pretty damn good.

By, "Don't play Oli aggro", people generally mean don't try to be like a Falcon just doing raw Nair's in and throwing out Fairs lol. Olimar requires more patience than your typical aggo char because there isn't one raw move he has that's good for just jumping in. You almost always have to Side-B first to create an opening, whether it's smacking them with a Purple or latching a different color onto them and then jumping in once you see them trying to hit them off. The latter is my favorite thing to do.
 
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Ningildo

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They cause flower poison damage even when leaf. Also keeping them in line risks having a white when trying to kill. They're good to throw at your opponent if you got them too far to follow up otherwise, but eh...

Getting a flowered white on them mid combo effectively ends their stock, though, so it's worth working towards.
 

blandsabbath

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I played at my locals today, and didn't do the greatest, mostly because im only about a year into competitive playing and i dont consider myself a great player yet. I did beat one of the top 10 in my State PR which i was very happy about, he played Wario, i won, switched to fox, he won, and the last match was very close but i won.

Mostly, ive had troubles before, but very curious as to how you guys approach Jiggs and Sheik? They gave me a run for my money
 

steelguttey

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jiggs is easy. even easier now. pull purples and rush. she dies super early now

sheik is just a pain, i dont even wanna talk about that mu :(
 

blandsabbath

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jiggs is easy. even easier now. pull purples and rush. she dies super early now

sheik is just a pain, i dont even wanna talk about that mu :(
I think i just have a mental block against my friends jiggs, he's the best jiggs in the state with her. like i've rocked his c falcon but gawdamn.

And yeah i just felt kinda lost with sheik honestly. I was super happy i beat that fox though, heart was racing and everything.

i also 2-0'd a lucas, i feel pretty confident in that mu
 

GeZ

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Sheik is a monster. Just a nuts character all around.

Edit: her midrange spacing game is not so good though, so if you can stay just outside her jab and tilt range, you can give her some trouble.
 
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blandsabbath

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yeah just kinda dont know what to do really against that hoe. the guy above me in my pr mains her, i wanna beat that **** and take #5 pr
 

Shokio

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Olimar pretty much bodies all fast-fallers that don't have shines or swords (Falcon, Lucas, Diddy). His combo and punish game is stupid on spacies and Roy though once you're finally able to touch them, but touching them is the hard part.

The Shiek MU......just don't do it, go to your secondary lol. But naw, my best advice for that MU is CC Dtilt. Sheik is really weak against CC'ing so if you can call a dash attack approach or aerial needs, just hold down and sniff that hoe. It may seem like basic, silly advice but honestly that MU is just a nightmare; that's the best I can recommend.

Also do everything in your power to get her off-stage. Dealing with her in neutral/on-stage can be pretty tough, so abuse Olimar's great punish game by constantly forcing her to Up-B on-stage, or go for FSmash gimps.
 
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B.W.

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Alright guys, here I am to give you my impressions of Olimar's current state... What did you actually think I wasn't going to test his changes after all the data gathering and grinding out the character in other versions? Anyway here goes.

3.6b at first glance is a buffed Olimar in tons of ways. The damage swapping with Red and Purple gives Red a purpose. It's great. Purple flowers are insane again, but literally only when they're flowers. But that's okay because their HP is high, they'll almost always get there if your not stupid.

Nearing the end of 3.5 I was starting to really like Yellows. They're a great defensive Pikmin thanks to their speed (U-Smash OoS is great with them), and my favorite to use F-Smash with. Now with the hitbox size buff they're usually my second most wanted Pikmin, especially with his I've been playing him in 3.6b. More on that later.

His grab change is technically a bigger nerf than it is a buff. It's much easier to punish Olimar when he whiffs a grab now, but honestly from a design perspective, that's a good thing. It's not too unsafe, but it's just the right amount. That said, the grab box coming out faster is really helpful, making grab OoS much better. The grab itself is still stupid amounts of active too.

Now onto the biggest change we got, and most of you are going to disagree with me when I talk about this, but I've also had people very much agreeing with me when I was playing in tournament last night.

Recovering is actually worse. Yes, that's right.

Even Kels (who I managed to take a game off of in tournament with Olimar last night woo woo!) kept shouting "It's so BAD!"

So let me go ahead and say what we gained from this recovery first.
-It's not reliant on Pikmin: This is huge. Pikmin falling apart when you recovered was a big issue in 3.0. Honestly, they did manage to fix it up a lot in 3.5. When I was experimenting with it in the last few days I did find out the causes of them falling apart as well as how to prevent it. But I won't go too deep into that unless someone asks about it.

But the big thing here is that the jetpack doesn't rely on Pikmin, and that IS a good thing as far as buff things go. I'll leave my opinions about overall design out of this.

-It has a hitbox: This is nice... Honestly though the hitbox isn't worth a damn. Hitting someone with it rarely buys you time to land on the stage correctly, and there's a problem with this recovery that actually makes it pretty much not matter at all.

-We can land on stage as a mix up: Sounds better than it actually is... More on that when I explain other stuff.

-We can Up-B as many times as we need: Nothing to add to this. This is fantastic.

So that's basically it for our gains... Our losses... Well...

-Jetpack is more linear than tether: And it sucks. It has 3 different trajectories opposed to Tether being able to recover in almost a half circle shape. I will say, a lot of this fact is negligible because edgeguarding a Tether was as easy as just sitting there and waiting. But the reason Tether was better is because of this reason coupled with the next two facts.

-Jetpack is A LOT slower: one major upside to the Tether if how fast it was. If you got hit, and you could Up-B before the opponent could make it to the ledge, you were back. The speed of the jetpack allows for a lot of characters to get to Olimar for the edgeguard before he can get back.

-Jetpack sweet spotting the stage is pretty bad: So, one thing I noticed immediately is how hard it is to sweet spot the ledge. The jetpack has to be on its last few frames (basically the move has to be over) to sweet spot. This, along with its slow speed and linear angles is not good news. To make matters worse, Olimar's head hurtbox actually sticks up above the stage before the sweet spot happens. I got D-Smashed on recovery quite a few times last night. It's bad.

-Landing on stage with the Jetpack is incredibly unsafe: I don't know the frame data yet. I didn't have it for the tether either, but I think I still have 3.5. I'm going to get that data eventually, but I'm certain that the jetpack has more landing lag than tether did. It almost feels like it's as much landing on stage after someone edgehogged your tether. You can make this not matter too much though, if you hit a platform and slide off the edge of it. That saved me a few times, but thanks to the move's slow travel speed I usually got hit before even making it to the platform.

-Olimar's recovery as a whole doesn't go as far: Aerial pluck was given more end lag. You still get good horizontal distance with it, so it's not terrible, but you do actually lose a little bit of height with it, it's not that big a hit to be honest. But the jetpack also doesn't go as far as the tether did. I died a lot going for edgeguard that worked in 3.5 that no longer work in 3.6b. The jetpack goes about as far as 4 Pikmin, but without the little hop from 3.5 Up-B, I'm pretty sure. But I do know the other reason I wasn't making it back is because of the fact that the can't recover from as many angles as the tether could. Be careful when you're trying to go deep in this version.

So now I'll talk about my new way to play. I don't think I'll be sticking to Olimar this version. Mostly because I liked being able to jump out into the bubble to edge guard people and can't do that anymore. That said I do have a new way I personally enjoy playing him now.

Two Pikmin. It makes organizing your tools much better and allows for excellent combinations. I usually try to keep a Purple handy because any throw leads into Purple F-Air, U-Smash, whatever. Yellow is probably my favorite to have as my second. Remember how people used to say it had great combo potential and I used to argue that it didn't matter much because organizing a Yellow hit wasn't worth? It still wasn't worth because it usually led to another Yellow, which ruined the combo, a Blue which lacked power, a White lol, but when it leads to Purple it's devastating. And now you can do that consistently. And Yellow throws are fine combo starters. Not to mention their defensive ability is amazing now with the speed and the hitbox size increase. F-Smash works great as a wall with Yellow and paired with Purple as a projectile. It's so good.

I saw you guys talking about this before too. Someone mentioned having more Pikmin is necessary because of how reliant Olimar is on Side-B. This has some truth. But trying to throw more than one Pikmin on the opponent doesn't always work out so well. If I want to chuck a Pikmin at my opponent I just pluck a third and use the new one, but you can usually make due with the two. Using whistle to manage your Pikmin you can bring them back to safetysafety and Whistle is faster and more mobile than pluck so Side-B is still there. Some matchups jI still pluck 4 though and I'll just run and toss, like Jiggs and Peach. Or if I need more for projectile blocking, I'll do that too. But I've been having a lot of success with just running two Pikmin most of the time.

So closing this out. All in all, Olimar is better off than he was in 3.5. Despite his recovery technically being a nerf his on stage game is much better. His neutral is pretty much the same, but his punish game is much much muuuch better. He also has a chain grab on a lot of the cast now and his D-Throw is a bit better, though U-Throw will be your go to in most early damage situations. His matchups will probably go mostly unchanged as well save for the ones that have an easier time with his new recovery.
 
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steelguttey

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yayy bw is back

i think the jetpack is a bad recovery move but it opens up oli's meta so much i love not having to have 4 pikmin
 

B.W.

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I wouldn't say I'm back for sure. I'm playing with a lot of characters right now. Pit is super interesting right now.

But yeah, it lacks speed, versatility, and a real ability to sweetspot. It is nice not having to rely on Pikmin, but we get bodied off stage even harder than before and I hate not being able to go deep anymore.
 

B.W.

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We actually can't on some stages. The length is slightly shortened and the angle doesn't allow for it. We'll go under the stage or it just won't go high enough cause it's trying to go diagonal.

BTW when I say deep, in this sense I mean we can't go very far downward (vertically). Horizontally we're technically still partly nerfed but it's not that bad.
 

steelguttey

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recovery isnt worse, its better in many ways. it sucks compared to other recoveries but so does falcon, ganon, dk, bowser, falco, etc. and theyre good characters. atl east this one is reliable
 

Searing_Sorrow

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The problem with his recovery is it's so slow that when you go for sweetspotting the ledge, your opponent can literally react wavedash back.

I agree that considering how strong olimar ' s punish game is, he should have a bottom half of cast recovery, but the landing lag being as long as it is makes landing on stage look like marth endlag.

The issue I am having with it right now is that edgeguarding has become more of a struggle on those wonderful slanted stages. (Skyworld, lylat, etc) mostly cause a trade/(random act of God) could put me at an arc where I go straight under the stage if I try and use his current upb. Still too early to judge it, but there are moments where I would rather be falco off stage right now.
 
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UltiMario

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I was thinking that Jetpack was a worse recovery in a lot of ways compared to 3.5, but I didn't really post about it since I didn't think anyone else would share that opinion, guess I was wrong.

Changes I'd make to Jetpack:

1. Speed. This whole thing needs to be faster, like seriously. It doesn't need to be a TON faster, just enough to where it stops making Falcon's recovery look speedy.

2. Cancelling. Being able to press B again or something to drop out of this and immediately grab ledge would help Oli with the big losses he had when it came to quickly grabbing the ledge.

Current Up-B is a step in the right direction, but it's not really making the impact that it needed to, Oli's recovery pretty drastically needed to be normal, not slightly less subpar. You can't fix a bad Up-B with a bad Up-B.
 

B.W.

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Every person I've played has acknowledged that Olimar's new Up-B is easier to deal with. Including the ones that know how to properly edgeguard B-Tethers, and had never let me come back to the stage before.

The real issue I have with it is the lack of angles on it. Tether wasn't very versatile, sure, but the jetpack is somehow even less versatile. How do you even do that?
 

GeZ

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Have you guys noticed that Olimar has low enough traction that you can land on the edge of the stage, and slide off to grab ledge if you hold back? Dunno, jetpack is pretty bad, but I've gotten some mileage out of that by just staying on stage when they go for ledge, and sliding off stage to ledge if they anticipate me landing on stage. Using it early, like when they fly out to bap, you helps too.
 

steelguttey

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just watched shokio's vod and jesus christ why dont any commentators know how olimar works its really making me angry
 

Searing_Sorrow

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 19, 2014
Messages
433
Location
Alma/Statesboro Georgia
While practicing in training mode, I ran into this weird moment where the computer broke out of the grab while I was still stuck in the up throw animation. Wanted to see if this has happened to others yet before reporting it as a bug.
 

Shokio

Netplay 4 Days
Joined
Jul 31, 2013
Messages
570
Location
Dallas/College Station, TX
NNID
Shokio
Lots of people tend to read only the change-logs of their own chars lol.

I realized the other day that if you hold back, the jackpack will travel more vertically and for a shorter distance. He also seems to not grab the ledge until the rocketing animation is over, so basically you have to space the recovery to where Olimar starts declining from the arch right when he can grab the ledge. It's not like FireFox where Fox will just snap and skip the rest of the Up-B active frames if a sweetspot is detected, which is how I'm sure a lot of us have been treating it this whole time. It's definitely not a normal recovery.

I thought it was worse than the tether day 1, but I think this is all initial confusion and disappointment. It's still not great or anything, but it's better than the tether. We just need to figure it out more. One problem that will never go away though depsite how much we practice with it is it's speed......it's really slow and easy to read and intercept, but as others have mentioned, so are other character's recoveries. But I think it wasn't really an intentional design choice.......I feel that it should be faster or have less landing lag.
 
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