Olimar Frame Data - 3.02

[KuroganeHammer]

no, hitbox sizes use an in game measurment unless you mean brawl olimar > pm olimar in which case idk

I might be able to whip something up

no promises

 

[B.W.]

If they match Brawl in size, I've found a video that shows the hitbox sizes for Olimars moves.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

If they match Brawl in size, I've found a video that shows the hitbox sizes for Olimars moves.

it was basically double the size

 

[KuroganeHammer]

(I lied about it being double the size soz, Brawl's is bigger though.)

The smaller hitbox under the bigger one is the late hit. There is a small amount of movement during the move.

 

[B.W.]

How'd you manage to get that image?

Also. That's for everyone but Yellow right? Cause damn that's huge, and Yellow is bigger. God damn.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

@ B.W. I thought yellow had the same size for uair

also I made that image

 

[Soniv]

Compared to up smash, what's the priority on up air like? (If this is detailed somewhere in the OP, I apologize)

 

[DrinkingFood]

Depends on what you mean by priority.

 

[Soniv]

Like, if it has stronger priority than up smash, would it be better to use on people incoming for a stomp (this obviously would depend on the stomper's priority as well).

This may be an unanswerable question lol

 

[DrinkingFood]

????
it still depends on what you mean by priority

 

[B.W.]

I think he wants to know which move is more likely to beat out other moves.

@ KuroganeHammer

Never mind, I was looking at the wrong move.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Ok Priority noobs, listen up.

In fighting games "priority" is thrown around a lot and a lot of people simply do not know what it means.

Today's lesson is "what really is priority in Project M?"

To be completely honest, priority is in the eye of the beholder. Lots of people will just handwave fact as fiction.

There are a number of things that affect the relative priority of a move (we are talking about priority that when you get move A and move B and pit them together which move will beat the other).

PRIORITY RULE #1 - Clanking

Some moves can clank, but others can't. You should be fairly familiar with clanking, but some moves simply are programmed to not be able to clank. These moves will ignore interactions with other hitboxes.​

PRIORITY RULE #2 - The 9% Rule

Moves that can clank with each other will cancel each other out, unless one of the moves does 9% or more damage, in which that move will CONTINUE to execute itself, where it will usually beat the other move. This works vs projectiles without hurtboxes as well (Samus Charge Shot for example (also assuming this hasn't changed from Brawl)).​

PRIORITY PRINCIPLE #1 - Disjoint & Positioning

These are principles because people will argue that these don't define priority, but move vs move they do determine almost 100% of the time which moves will beat which.

I have three images of Marth fair vs Olimar uair. In the three images, Olimar is positioned differently to the point where he wins by beating fair, trades, and loses to the fair. You should be able to figure out which is which just by looking at it.

PRIORITY PRINCIPLE #2 - Intangibility

This is basically a subsection of #2, basically some moves have full or partial intangibility on them meaning that the hurtboxes of the move user are not able to be interacted with. Here's a Brawl example:

Here's Zelda down smashing a Snake mine. Why? Because she can. Because she has partial intangibility on her leg which means she can do this with few negative effects since her leg hurtbox can't be interacted with by hitboxes.

Fox's Shine used to be this I believe. If I recall correctly he had FULL intangibility until the hitboxes ended, meaning that literally nothing could ever beat Shine outright.​

There are other smaller rules that will affect priority, including, but not limited to the speed of a move (Example: Ganondorf and ZSS use Warlock Punch and Jab respectively... Who wins do you think?), the hitboxes interaction vs grounded and aerial opponents (Olimar's down air is a good example of this, most of his Pikmin can't hit grounded opponents with the late hit) and even things like hitbox size.

Realistically there are only two rules for priority in smash, everything else is relative and you could probably argue that priority is not just one singular thing, but a bunch of elements that makes a move "good".

Hope this helps~

 

[DrinkingFood]

I know what priority is I was just giving him a hard time lol
I usually differentiate between stuff like %rule, grounded/aerial/transcendent/projectile, etc as hitbox priority
Disjointedness, duration, speed, etc as move priority
And the combination and end results of the two as apparent priority
It's just easier that way

 

[B.W.]

That's still a good write up though for people who don't know.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I know what priority is I was just giving him a hard time lol
I usually differentiate between stuff like %rule, grounded/aerial/transcendent/projectile, etc as hitbox priority
Disjointedness, duration, speed, etc as move priority
And the combination and end results of the two as apparent priority
It's just easier that way

It's still good for people who don't know aka everyone. I have told numerous people when playing Brawl to stop trying to hit me when I Shine as Wolf, because that's the same thing as Melee Fox's Shine.

Also it's probably just semantics but I still disagree with your post since projectiles follow grounded move priority and technically disjoint/duration/placement are things that can be changed, thus cannot really be "priority" at all.

Guys

How do I proceed with the block advantages for f-smash? Do I just pick the first strong hit for leaf/bud/flower and leave the rest? I would imagine that the late hit is pretty safe.

 

[B.W.]

All the info.

All of it.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

All the info.

All of it.

But that requires like, 75 different tests for u, f and dsmash.

I don't know if that is feasible.

 

[B.W.]

Dunno. Maybe just give us the strong it and the last hit for reference?

Good question.

But all the data plz

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Dunno. Maybe just give us the strong it and the last hit for reference?

Good question.

But all the data plz

I'll see what I can do.

Also I just ran a yellow fair vs red fair vs Snake and he can act faster when being hit by the yellow. I guess that means that Yellow are bad for comboing (exactly what I had theorized)

 

[B.W.]

I hate Yellows.

They're like, the worst.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I hate Yellows.

They're like, the worst.

Bro, look at your Red's shield advantage

Look at how ****ing crazy that is. And I think that yellows might be safer. iuno

Man this topic is terrible, it's just us two having a conversation. W/e, I like you.

 

[B.W.]

At least we're trying to bring this character somewhere.

Also I GUESS Yellow is good for that. I do like how they're a bit better vs shields. But why accept Yellow when Purple exists? Why except anything else when Purple exists?

Most OP lineup. Blue, Purple, Purple, Purple.

Second most OP lineup. Red, Purple, Purple, Purple.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

ok I lied, yellows aren't safer on shield. I thought the hitlag multiplier would make them better but apparently not.

Yellows are doomed to mediocrity

Game is basically Brawl. Farm Purple Pikmin. They're called "grape" for a reason.

Edit:

FOUND SOMETHING INTERESTING

go to battlefield

throw 2 pikmin away

use upsmash so your pikmin lands on the platform

up smash again

works with fsmash too

enjoy your new technique

 

[B.W.]

Lemme see dis.

Oh, okay. It's an easier way to force Pikmin onto a platform. I've known about this trick, but it's hard to do consistantly.

Course this has some downsides, but this is neat regardless.

 

[Soniv]

@ KuroganeHammer , you continue to be a gentleman and a scholar. My priority ignorance was showing, thanks for covering me up.

Also, just cuz B.W. is the only one posting on Australia time doesn't mean there aren't others who care =P

@ B.W. , I do like having a flowered white Pikmin for the poison explosion. If I can attach one and time a grab + throw to allow me to combo/kill more with it, it feels good. I do generally throw yellows away though. Even if they weren't trash, the throw arc messes with me if I'm quickly trying to block projectiles with Pikmin and he just soars over as I watch with despair.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Ya that's okay.

Anyway I'm just going to leave this here: http://kuroganehammer.com/ProjectM/Olimar/

Olimar is now complete. It's 1:15 am so I'm going to bed.

If you have any questions or think I've missed something (quite possible I guess) let me know.

 

[B.W.]

Flowered whites are fantastic when they get there.

Normally when I get whites I toss them on my opponent almost right away cause if they manage to explode you can capitalize off it.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Flowered white pikmin have a really good bair for whatever reason.

 

[DrinkingFood]

It's still good for people who don't know aka everyone. I have told numerous people when playing Brawl to stop trying to hit me when I Shine as Wolf, because that's the same thing as Melee Fox's Shine.

doesn't brawl wolf have like a gazillion invincibility frames on shine
Melee fox only has one, the first one, all it does is save him from trades and beats grabs on that one frame

 

[Ripple]

the 9% rule is actually the 10% rule. unless that was changed from brawl to PM

 

[KuroganeHammer]

the 9% rule is actually the 10% rule. unless that was changed from brawl to PM

Actually it's 9%.

 

[standardtoaster]

it's 9 dmg ripple. it's been 9 dmg since melee and brawl

 

[Ripple]

I've always heard it as 10%. like always, even by notable people but I guess everyone's been thinking of 64

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Maybe I can come up with something, but probably not until this cruel joke is over.

hello

 

[B.W.]

Oh hi.

I haven't thought of anything to say yet. Anyone is free to beat me to it.

 

[B.W.]

Spoiler

GENERAL INFO
Olimar is a character that is fairly easy to use, but is relatively hard to master. His attacks and his combos may seem simple, but to maximize his combo and killing abilities you must learn to micromanage your Pikmin so that you can use the abilities of each individual Pikmin quickly and efficiently, as well as making sure you have the abilities you want in the first place. Knowing when to move your Blue or Purple Pikmin to the front of the line may decide whether or not you take your opponent's stock.

On top of having to micromanage your Pikmin, Olimar is a character that demands precision. Moving your Purple to the front and missing your kill hit with him means that, unless there is another Purple next in line, your plan is screwed and you'll have to create another opportunity to kill again. Precision is also important when using Pikmin Throw (Side-B) and F-Smash. If a Pikmin fails to hit the opponent and goes offstage, you may not be getting that Pikmin back. Or in the case of a Purple Pikmin Throw or F-Smash in general, going offstage is the end of that Pikmin period.

After learning to deal with these two quirks, Olimar becomes a very strong character capable of filling most any role. He has disjoints, chaingrabs, killing throws, long and damaging combos, and a very strong projectile in Purple Pikmin Throw.

CHARACTER STATS
Difficulty: Intermediate/Advanced

Style: All-Rounder

Defensive Power: Olimar has a weight of 90 (same as Peach, Zelda and Sheik), and a fall speed of 1.9 (same as Bowser, Pikachu, Pit, and Sonic). These two facts, combined with the fact that he's small make Olimar very difficult to combo, and very difficult to kill for most characters. His recovery is also fairly strong as his Neutral-B in the air will give him a small amount of height which can be used for long distance recoveries as well as mixing up short distance recoveries, and his tether is fairly reliable (so long as you have at least 3 Pikmin) and is the only tether in the game that can hit opponents off the ledge and still grab on, often times resulting in a stage spike.

Olimar also has a fair amount of OoS options in his N-Air and F-Air, as well as his grounded Up-B in rare cases. His spotdodge is quick, however it should be noted that his shield roll is terrible.

Olimar is also very easy to tech chase, as his tech roll goes almost no where.

Offensive Power: Olimar has plenty of ways to deal damage, and his Pikmin attacks overall deal more damage than a lot of characters in the game. His ability to land a killing move can be trick though, especially without a Purple Pikmin, and he often times has to rack up more damage than most characters for moves to kill outright in the first place.

Approach Strength: Olimar's fairly quick movement coupled with his fast and disjointed F-air makes approaching with Olimar fairly easy, so long as the opponent's attacks don't outrange him. When he has a Purple Pikmin, his Side-B also turns into one of the strongest projectiles in the game, being able to outprioritize many different attacks and projectiles, allowing Olimar to keep moving forward. Other Pikmin are also able to block projectiles in Olimar's way which allows him to gain ground while the opponent is still recovering from their ranged attacks.

Combo ability: One of Olimar's greatest strengths is that he can combo characters for a long time so long as they are above him, and Olimar has many attacks to start his U-Smash and U-Air juggles. The fast falling characters get hit by this extremely hard as well, letting Olimar easily deal around 70%+ damage, even with proper DI. Couple this with platforms and Olimar's U-Air becomes a great hassle since the Pikmin's hitbox is about as big as Olimar himself and travels about 2 Olimar's away from him making it very easy to beat out other attacks.

N-Air is also a great juggle attack, and both of these attacks combo well into F-Air or B-Air to take opponents off the stage.

Key techniques:

Pikmin Order AKA Whistle- This is one of Olimar's key moves and it's very important that you know how it works, so here's an explantion.

1) Olimar plucks 4 Pikmin that come out in the order of Yellow > Purple > Red > White
2a) If Olimar hasn't whistled yet, or if his last whistle put Purple in front, then that means that it's Red's turn to go to the front of the line and the whistle will reorganize his Pikmin like this: Red > Yellow > White > Purple.
2b) If Olimar has whistled once, then that means that it's Yellow's turn to take the lead. Which would reorganize step 1's list to be: Yellow > White > Purple > Red.

This is important to note, because good organization through Whistle and your Pikmin attacks can lead to you getting the Pikmin you want to the front faster.

As an example of good Whistle organization, let's say your lineup is Red > Blue > Purple > Purple, and it's Blue's turn next Whistle.

Whistle once to make the order Blue > Purple > Purple > Red.

Next use ANY Pikmin attack to change the order Purple > Purple > Red > Blue.

Now you can use both of your Purple Pikmin, then Whistle ONCE and both Purple Pikmin will be the next in line again. This is because the Whistle saves whatever the last color you were on, regardless of how you use your Pikmin. It also saves whoever's next in line after Olimar uses a stock.

This is what I have so far. I'm really not too sure what to put for Key Techniques and I could talk doubles partners with Olimar all day. Especially about Sonic.

Read it. Revise it. Do what you want with it. Really I'd love to make a different sort of guide about this character going over his moves and attributes individually, but I'm still learning him myself. I'm also partially afraid of how he may change in future builds so I don't want to start something that I'll have to remake.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Yeah, see where [Intro paragraph.] is in the OP? That's where I'm planning on putting your work :]

The Ike boards wrote this for reference: http://smashboards.com/threads/ike-frame-data-3-02.350437/page-2#post-16639698

Ignore doubles partners for now, too subjective

brb work

 

[B.W.]

@ KuroganeHammer

I added to the "Key Techniques." I only put one thing there because it's really the only thing that's overly specific about Olimar. The rest of his stuff is fairly obvious or has already been mentioned. Kay put it on the front now plz.

 

[GrizzleDrizz1ed]

So let me get this straight, Yellow Pikmin sucks and has virtually no redeeming qualities?

If thats the case, is it on the table for review on making it worth having in the PMBR?

 

[BluntedMask]

Off topic but if you have zero pikmin and pluck one when they land on a platform, you will be able to use any smash you want from the platform.

Kind of useless since having 0 pikmin is a very bad idea, but though it was interesting.