Olimar Changes in 3.5 and What This Means For You

[Chesstiger2612]

What a boring game we have here lol

Actually @ B.W. 's the list is not complete (happens to everybody, no problem):
I added the frame number for the reverse direction (so if you land, before that frame you didn't turn and from that frame on you did turn) and the number of the complete animation (if you don't IASA) after the / symbol.

Spoiler

Lucario's back-air: 57/89
Marth's back-air: 47/81
Olimar's back-air: 50/91
Roy's back-air: 54/94

Back-throws:
Wario
Mario
Luigi
Bowser
Yoshi
Donkey Kong (back throw + cargo back-throw)
Diddy Kong
Wolf
Fox
Falco
Ice Climbers
Zelda
Ganondorf
Lucario
Ivysaur
Charizard
Samus
ZSS
Lucas
Pit
Meta Knight
King Dedede
Ike
Olimar
ROB
Mr. Game&Watch
Snake

Back-throws that do not turn:
Peach
Captain Falcon
Sheik
Link
Toon Link
Mewtwo
Pikachu
Jigglypuff
Squirtle
Ness
Kirby
Marth
Roy
Sonic

The conclusion is that you cannt SHFFL with a reverse direction because the frame numbers are too high for the turn

I think it would be a fine move if they also added the turnaround on aerials that are not back-air, they would have the opportunity if they create nrew characters or have to do a massive redesign on a character (I could see it being used on Jigglypuff's fair, since Jiggs often likes being turned to the other side and that character needs some change, just as an example).
It would also be interesting if a move gets a low turn frame so a SHFFL will make the character land in the reverse direction.

 

[robosteven]

I dunno, I'd rather just give Olimar the ability to do two bairs in a row facing the same direction.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Did y'all know white pikmin have insane comboablility?

 

[steelguttey]

no whats a pikmin

 

[Baby_Sneak]

no whats a pikmin

it's a living plant with arms and legs...... from another planet

 

[B.W.]

Actually Pikmin are on earth.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I saw someone suggest somewhere to have his new up b have Olimar get on a mini S.S. Dolphin. What if it looked kind of like Roslina's up b. Probably have a hitbox and go way shorter, but I think that would work.. Maybe go the same distance as Pikmin chain, have a hitbox. The only question I wouldn't be able to answer is how much you should be able to angle.

 

[robosteven]

can we talk about solo-yellow Pikmin's combo game

almost makes up-smash feel like 3.02

 

[steelguttey]

usmash was barely changed yo

 

[B.W.]

I'm against Olimar getting in any form of the ship for a recovery.

It would be weird for a move to put a character inside of something.

 

[robosteven]

usmash was barely changed yo

>IASA increased 37 -> 43.

bruh it's noticeable

 

[steelguttey]

6 frames of lag? still has the same dumb knockback angle lol

 

[B.W.]

Those 6 frames of lag is what makes it impossible to string U-Smash into another U-Smash for free, and it even stops you from being able to follow up with U-Air a lot of the time too. Most characters jump out of it at low damage now including heavy characters and fast fallers like Ganondorf, Ike, Captain Falcon and DK.

Unless you hit with Yellow, the move is only good as an anti-air (which can be beaten out easily now), a kill move in Purple, and an OoS option (which it's still really good as).

I don't dislike the extra 6 frames, but I wish Pikmin were given more priority with U-Smash so that they'd at least trade with most other attacks.

U-Tilt should be have 1 - 3 frames less endlag though to make it a little better for starting U-Air juggles.

 

[steelguttey]

usmash juggles are most def there on every character that isnt a floaty.

 

[B.W.]

If you really think that, your players have bad DI. I had people jumping out of my U-Smash juggles no problem. All you need to do is DI up and away and most characters get out of it around 45%.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I'm against Olimar getting in any form of the ship for a recovery.

It would be weird for a move to put a character inside of something.

I was actually thinking of him riding the shop instead of getting on, like Villager on the Lloyd rocket.

 

[robosteven]

Any recovery he gets that isn't his current up-b is great as far as I'm concerned.

 

[B.W.]

Being a stickler for canon, a tiny rocket ship would bother the absolute hell out of me. Especially when his intro shows the rocket taking off into space.

Nah man it's all about the Onion.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I was just thinking of the hocotate item in smash 4 and having him ride it like the Lloyd rocket, but angled vertically.

 

[B.W.]

I've heard that idea before. Still don't care for it.

 

[robosteven]

I still say side-b should be reworked.

The issue is that I have no idea how we'd go about doing it without completely breaking it.

With the exception of purples, it's really dumb as it is now.

 

[steelguttey]

its fine right now honestly. even with bad pikmin stamina you still got an advantage for hitting it. each character has something dumb

 

[robosteven]

each character has something dumb

This made me more mad than it probably should've.

 

[steelguttey]

elaborate pls

 

[robosteven]

It's just an excuse. It's like the word "gimmick," even though there's a pretty big difference between an actually broken mechanic and a subjectively lame/dumb one.

I've always hated Olimar's side-b's ability to rack up insane amounts of damage like it did in 3.02 (and arguably like it does now) because of how central to his game it's become. You get characters like Fox and Marth with people playing both super-aggro and super-safe and having success with both playstyles, but aggro Olimar is more or less discouraged when hanging back and racking up damage with side-b and camping is always a better option, even in PM, a game that tends to discourage heavy camping.

Admittedly I started it with use of the word "dumb," being as subjective as it is in the context of fighting games, but saying every character has dumb stuff comes off to me as the same as saying "Smash is gimmicky bull****."

Every character has dumb stuff that's kinda silly and feels maybe like it could be adjusted or needs to be reworked, but Olimar's the only one I can think of where one move can make or break the character in the sense of competitive viability.

I swear to god if you cite shine as a comparitive example I'm done with this **** board

tl;dr everything makes me salty and my opinions are trash

Edit: upon thinking of other fighters, I realize that archetypes are a thing and my post makes no sense, disregard pls. I just want to have moderate tournament success as my favorite character without needing to resort to the one projectile that doesn't offer instant gratification upon landing it, apparently that's too much to ask. ;_;

 

[steelguttey]

side b can be used as rushdown in a weird way

theyre forced to throw out a move to get that pikmin off, which gives you time to run up and grab. olimar is only a character that is keepaway when hes against another keepaway char

 

[Dante Shepard]

Olimar was way better in 3.02 than most people realized since SS (not Silent Spectre) was the only good Olimar player. Side b was pretty busted since the pikmin blocked the vast majority of projectiles, did a decent amount of damage on hit, and the throws had little enough endlag that a combination of side b spam and DD grabs let Olimar stay very safe. His punishes on grab were also obscene since he could get guaranteed up smash combos such as up smash -> up smash -> up air which did like 50% on its own and led into other follow ups. Pikmin health reduction helps to make side b more reasonable. The overall damage reduction also seems good. Olimar's damage output on easy, guaranteed combos was just so excessive. I'm not sure if the full set of nerfs was good, since I don't play much Olimar, but he was much better in 3.02 than most people realize.

yea man ss is the bomb beat hf neon on the reg with his olimar. he is the only true olimar main that was good but now since he quit playin oli because of the nerfs we truly lost a force of nature in a player.

 

[robosteven]

yea man ss is the bomb beat hf neon on the reg with his olimar. he is the only true olimar main that was good but now since he quit playin oli because of the nerfs we truly lost a force of nature in a player.

He's still really really good. He's got a solid Tink and Wario.

...and the nerfs were bad enough to warrant dropping the character, he had enough weaknesses in 3.02 to make up for his broken stuff. Some of the nerfs I agree with, but most of them I still feel were too much.

 

[nimigoha]

He's still really really good. He's got a solid Tink and Wario.

...and the nerfs were bad enough to warrant dropping the character, he had enough weaknesses in 3.02 to make up for his broken stuff. Some of the nerfs I agree with, but most of them I still feel were too much.

Sometimes I try to hit with all of the Nair hits. Sometimes I get them. Usually I don't. PMDT why.

 

[robosteven]

Sometimes I try to hit with all of the Nair hits. Sometimes I get them. Usually I don't. PMDT why.

Must've been too good. Ivy's nair is fine though.

/s

 

[nimigoha]

I just want the old Ftilt back. Was that nerf at all necessary? Now Nolimar can't function because his only kill option has become Ftilt at 200% instead of 130%.

 

[robosteven]

Was that nerf at all necessary?

If it's unrelated to side-b I honestly don't think any of the nerfs were necessary.

 

[steelguttey]

from a design standpoint, 3.0 olimar wasnt a healthy character. the only reason he wasnt complained about as much as zelda or ivysaur was because he was apparently the worst character in the game. ss is perfect evidence of how stupid 3.0 oli was.

 

[robosteven]

From a design standpoint, new f-smash is hilariously unhealthy and yet it's not even complained about ever.

As far as most of the rest of his moveset is concerned, he was about as stupid as a lot of the cast is in 3.5 (which is to say he really wasn't as stupid as you seem to think he was). They nerfed him way too hard in 3.5, SS dropped him because he's garbage.

I've always thought his grab was jank as hell, side-b is still jank as hell. Designwise, those two, his insane damage output, and his recovery were his biggest problems in 3.0. Props for the yellow buff, the antenna change, and the actually useable f-smash, but the jank didn't get addressed like it should've and I was disappointed since 3.5's release. Individual Pikmin properties aside (like whites), his moveset didn't need to get as completely castrated as it did.

SS is good and Olimar was a little over the top, but they nerfed him too hard and SS is smart for dropping him.

 

[steelguttey]

a move that has ~14 frame startup with a slow projectile is unhealthy? its amazing but has counterplay

3.5 is fine, olimar is bad cus his rcovery doesnt work.

olimar isnt "jank", he's gimmicky, and thats fine. the issue is with the buffs he got in 3.5 he wold be ridiculous without any nerfs. simple as that. in fact, if they didnt nerf anything except his recovery like they did in 3.5, he would still be the worst character in he gae because you can't get back on stage.

hes picking him up in 3.6 anyway

 

[robosteven]

Like the grab, it doesn't have to be fast to be good. In fact, how long the hitbox lasts is one of the reasons it's so good in the first place. Plus, to edgeguard you don't even need to take any risk at all. Just f-smash and wait.

The recovery isn't the sole reason he's bad.

The only buffs I can think of were the light (which for competent Oli players isn't even a buff), f-smash, and yellows. I don't think that evens out the nerfs, and I hadn't even been regarding the up-b hitbox removal. Dude should've had a different up-b since the get-go. Plus, I'm pretty sure gimmicks and jank are directly related, the issue is that Olimar's gimmicks don't work.

The man's got poor design out the wazoo.

edit: We'll see if they fix the jank/gimmicks/non-intuitive bull in 3.6. I'll bet you're right about him being significantly better in 3.6, but my guess is he'll be just as dumb.

 

[steelguttey]

theres alot of characters thatdont have to take risks to edgeguard, the thng is olimar loses a pikmin and its completely pointless if he misses. its an amazing move, but isnt busted in the slightest.

it basically is. he would be mid tier if he had the jetpack in this version. thats why i thin he'll be top 15 in 3.6

dair buffs, yellows, and fsmash are all huge. he went from having meh onstage edgeguarding to having shiek needles that dont need to be charged and go slower

his gimmicks work fine. the pikmin color thing is fantastic design and suggests a high risk-high reward playstyle whch is what he is.

the only poor design in him are rng and kind of side b but thats evened out by the innate weaknesses of the move.

 

[robosteven]

theres alot of characters thatdont have to take risks to edgeguard, the thng is olimar loses a pikmin and its completely pointless if he misses. its an amazing move, but isnt busted in the slightest.

My point is that a ton of the things that got nerfed in 3.5 (specifically things like d-throw and up-smash) weren't busted either. The damage output combined with things like these moves might've been, but 3.5 took both of those things away.

it basically is. he would be mid tier if he had the jetpack in this version. thats why i thin he'll be top 15 in 3.6

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that first part. As for the second part, we'll just have to wait and see.

buffs, yellows, and fsmash are all huge. he went from having meh onstage edgeguarding to having shiek needles that dont need to be charged and go slower

...which to me sounds about as jank/gimmicky/buzzword as his 3.0 up-smash, white pummel, down-throw, you get the idea.

gimmicks work fine. the pikmin color thing is fantastic design and suggests a high risk-high reward playstyle whch is what he is.

the only poor design in him are rng and kind of side b but thats evened out by the innate weaknesses of the move.

I guess it's just me, but I'd much rather have matchups be based around entire movesets as opposed to one move dictating the match (Melee Sheik stands out, but to a more extreme degree). Side-b making or breaking a matchup is, frankly, ****ing ridiculous. As far as the color thing goes, I'd like to agree with you but I just don't. Consistency is important to an extent, and the reason rng is so problematic is because Pikmin having different properties (aside from damage and KB on-hit) makes certain moves (like Purple grab) in certain situations not work at all. When you want to land a finisher and do a fair that will connect and god forbid it happens to be a white, you still land the hit and gain the slight damage and position advantage. If the grab functioned normally but the throws themselves were actually **** your gameplan wouldn't have to change and you won't be punished for doing something that in any other scenario would work, and the fact that it doesn't work like that seems dumb as hell.

It's coming to the point where I can't tell if either I'm just not designed to play this character or if the character is actually bad. General tournament results, representation, and general representation scream the latter to me, but it might just be the former the whole time.

 

[steelguttey]

dthrow and usmas were very much busted. autocombos that lasted that long just arenthealthy. usmash is still very good

he has other good moves if thats what youmean by one move. there are alot of healhy characters tha are based off of a strong move (falco, maybe d3?)

all moves are usable with every pikmin, period. they are just worse. that isnt bad design, thatsthe design of the character. high risk, high rewards.

whistle exists nearly for threason of shuffling pikmin to get wha you want. a good olimar player can look at their lineup and say "im gonna do these moves in this order and i'll get a huge reward out of it" for example: im in mid range against a fastfaller and my lineup is a flowered white, leaf blue, leaf yellow and a leaf red. meh lineup. maybe. you land a whte side b, waveland it and immediately grab. you get the grab, dash attack, usmash with the yellow and red and then hit with blue uair. that miht even kill with the explosion because blue aerials are so powerful.

the gra functions normally in comparison to other characters, its just worse than other grabs. simple. adapting is all olimar is.

 

[robosteven]

robosteven confirmed unable to adapt to **** conditions

3.6 determines if I switch mains or not. Here's to the next patch.